Pathways, Pivots and Shifting Perspectives

What if we told you that you could navigate your 'squiggly career' with resilience, versatility, and a Swiss Army Knife-like skillset? Well, our special guest Jen Lister, a business strategy coach, has done just that and more. From her studies in economics to her stint at Deloitte, and her unexpected departure after being bypassed for a promotion, Jen's journey is a masterclass in authenticity, adaptability, and triumph over adversity. Listen in as she reveals how juggling full-time parenting and running a service-based business has shaped her unique perspective on success and life.

Jen’s career path is as unpredictable as it is inspiring. After leaving Deloitte, she ventured into the unknown, embracing the pressures and expectations associated with big four consulting firms. Her journey led her to Australia and eventually to a pivot into the care sector, underscoring the importance of resilience and individualism in the face of challenging circumstances. Her stories of navigating motherhood, business, and the world of coaching are packed with priceless lessons.

Jen discusses the significance of having a mentor, the power of confidentiality in building trust, and the importance of supporting others. Jen’s life and work serve as a testament to the power of perseverance and the courage to redefine one’s identity. Whether you're an entrepreneur, a parent, or someone navigating a career shift, this episode promises to resonate and inspire. Tune in to pick up actionable insights and practical tips, and allow Jen's journey to illuminate your own.

You can find Jen's website here www.jenlister.com
You can listen to Jen's podcast here https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-jen-lister-podcast/id1625102330
You can follow Jen on Instagram here https://www.instagram.com/jenlistercoaching/
You can follow Jen on LinkedIn here https://www.linkedin.com/in/jenlistercoaching/

Tedx Talk with Danielle Howell is available here https://youtu.be/Xfg5SMSWd_k?si=0sqWgcdgxmX9fV6T

The JobsWorth website is here www.jobs-worth.com

Follow me on LinkedIn; https://www.linkedin.com/in/johnhawker/

Follow me on Instagram; https://www.instagram.com/jobsworthpodcast/

Follow me on TikTok; https://www.tiktok.com/@globaltechcollective

Subscribe to my newsletter 'The Job Journal from GTC'; https://tinyurl.com/TheJobJournalFromGTC

Learn more about my proper job; https://www.globaltechcollective.com/

Contact me using hello@jobs-worth.com

Chapters

• 0:01 An Intro to Jen Lister - Career Path Perspectives
• 6:18 Career Expectations and Mental Health Struggles
• 12:08 Career Reflections and Life Changes
• 25:04 Pivoting Into the Care Sector
• 34:53 The Sale of a Business and Motherhood
• 43:16 The Benefits of Finding a Coach or Mentor
• 48:36 Importance of Confidentiality and Supporting Others
• 51:32 Boundaries, Challenges and Labels in Entrepreneurship
• 1:01:35 Jen's Sixth Form Experience and Career Guidance
• 1:06:35 Top Tips on How to Become an Entrepreneur
• 1:15:30 Mum's Question

Transcript

John Hawker: 0:01

Jobs Worth Season 1, episode 4, pathways, pivots and Shifting Perspectives. Welcome to Episode 4 of Jobs Worth. My guest for this episode is Jen Lister, a business strategy coach who helps people build and scale businesses whilst ensuring they keep their own well-being at the heart of every decision they make. Jen isn't just any business coach. She's my business coach, as well as being the person who gave me a huge push and create the podcast you're listening to now. So if you're not a fan, just know she's partly to blame.

John Hawker: 0:42

After academic success at school, sixth form and university, jen embarked upon a lot of people's dream career path and started work as a consultant with Deloitte. We pick up her journey from there, discussing her experience of being overlooked for a promotion and subsequent departure from the Big Four firm, before embarking upon what can only be described as a squiggly career, utilising her Swiss Army Knife skillset in a variety of different ways. As well as work, we talk about what it's like to be a full-time parent running a service-based business, the boundaries she's introduced that enable her to compartmentalise work and life, and the importance of authenticity when it comes to attracting your ideal clients. I still don't know what I want to do when I grow up. It's one of my favourite quotes from this conversation and for someone in their mid-30s, you might argue that the horse is bolted, but Jen articulates a feeling I and so many people have so so often, and we also talk about why that's okay.

John Hawker: 1:39

This episode is full of actionable tips and a super comprehensive answer to what advice would you give to someone wanting to start their own business. So grab a note pad and pen and settle in Without further ado. It is my absolute pleasure to introduce you to an incredibly positive force in my life and so many others Jen Lister. Jen, thank you so much for coming in.

Jen Lister: 2:01

It's a pleasure.

John Hawker: 2:02

I am conscious of how hot this room is.

Jen Lister: 2:05

I'm pretty hot.

John Hawker: 2:06

Yeah, we're recording in my office in what has been a heatwave, for Doesn't feel like the hottest day that it's been.

Jen Lister: 2:12

No, it's raining today.

John Hawker: 2:13

It's raining which I think is helping us slightly, but we have to close the window. I've discussed a seagull issue which sounds strange now to bring this up on a podcast episode, but there is a seagull issue which makes a lot of noise anyway.

Jen Lister: 2:24

I have a hay fever issue too, so if I start sniffing, that's why.

John Hawker: 2:27

Oh, that's fine. Okay, what a pair. All right, but thank you for coming in and making the journey into the studio slash office.

Jen Lister: 2:36

It's a pleasure. Thank you for having me.

John Hawker: 2:38

No, you're welcome. You're welcome. There's a tradition starting with this podcast now, so I'm going to ask you a question. I'm going to dive right in. Okay, when you were younger, what did you want to be when you grew up?

Jen Lister: 2:51

Oh, it's a really boring answer. Actually, a teacher Really, yeah, okay.

John Hawker: 2:56

It's not boring. I mean, you've got aspirations and goals, I guess. Okay, did you do anything towards that?

Jen Lister: 3:03

I did, I went to. So I went to a school, a local school called Swain, which you'll know.

John Hawker: 3:08

Yeah. And I went to a school called arts and arts, which was a very important as a teaching assistant and I absolutely hated it Really. I think that changed my mind.

Jen Lister: 3:16

How old were you when you did that? Oh goodness me, I reckon about 17 maybe. Yeah, just after school, yeah.

John Hawker: 3:23

So that was. I guess I would have been out of version. So, just for some context, me and Jen used to go to school together as well, so we were at secondary school together. So we were at a school called Fitz Whymark, which might mean nothing to anyone that's listening to this, but our sort of sworn enemies at the time were Swain call them, but Jenny's essentially saying she went to the enemy and decided to try it and I hated it.

Jen Lister: 3:43

so that's a good thing, I guess.

John Hawker: 3:44

Yeah, that is good, okay, anything else. So really young age you wanted to be a teacher. That's quite a goal.

Jen Lister: 3:52

The other thing I wanted to be was a fashion designer or an interior designer. I used to have this thing called fashion wheel when I was a kid, which was like a girls. I say girls, that's stereotypical, I shouldn't say that. It was like drawing out all different like outfits and stuff.

John Hawker: 4:04

Oh, I think I remember I had that on the TV.

Jen Lister: 4:06

Yeah, I had it and I loved it.

John Hawker: 4:09

So that was a sort of thing, a pipe dream at some point about being a fashion designer.

Jen Lister: 4:14

Yeah, and I've kind of done both of those things a little bit like being a coach now is a bit like being a teacher to some extent.

John Hawker: 4:20

I think so. And I did work in strategy for a lot of fashion retail companies, so there, you go, brilliant, there you go, kind of like achieve the dreams in a weird way, which is why I asked the question at the start really to talk about maybe some of the dreams you had as a kid and how they relate now to what you're doing for work.

Jen Lister: 4:38

Oh, sorry, I've just taken away your glory there. No, it's fine, I love it.

John Hawker: 4:41

I mean there's no all in getting to that point, but you've made the connections there, so that's absolutely brilliant. Okay, so share with me or us whoever's listening to this? A little bit about your career journey, so your corporate experience that you've discussed started in 2008. That's right yeah, okay, so take us through from the corporate career journey that you started in and a pot of history of bring us up to date, if that's okay.

Jen Lister: 5:10

So before I got to corporate I will say I went to the University of Warwick and studied economics and I got a first class degree. And I say that because as a female at Warwick, in economics I was very much the minority and that is one of my proudest achievements, without a doubt. I remember seeing the list of names of people that got first. There was like ten of us on the list and there was a couple of girls on there and I was just like really proud. I spent loads of time hanging out with other boys on my course and feeling imposter syndrome a lot of the time.

Jen Lister: 5:41

And when I was at Warwick one of the things you kind of got brainwashed into not necessarily at Warwick but at uni was you have to go and work for one of the big four. So I went to work for Deloitte and I got a job in strategy consultancy, which I was super proud of, because strategy was like the sexy part of the big four Because they had like consulting, audit, tax and corporate finance and of the four, consulting was the kind of sexy one, the pinnacle.

Jen Lister: 6:06

And of consulting strategy was like the sexy one, so I was really excited. So, yeah, I worked at Deloitte for about three years and I got passed up for a promotion at Deloitte. So I got my first promotion from analyst to consultant and then the next promotion was from consultant to senior consultant and I didn't get that when my peers all did.

John Hawker: 6:28

Okay, let's stop there for a second.

Jen Lister: 6:29

It was literally the worst day of my life.

John Hawker: 6:31

What happened around that and how were you left feeling, but also what were the reasons given to you at the time for not getting that?

Jen Lister: 6:37

promotion. It was so bad. So there's lots of like excuses or reasons. My career advice, like you all have, like your own mentor or career advisor. They had left so I'd been given some another person I don't feel really knew me very well and they have to speak your, they have to fight your corner.

Jen Lister: 6:54

Advocate for you, basically Advocate for you in this meeting called like the round table every year and I wasn't very good at playing the game. I'm not that kind of person that like networks with the right people and rubs up the right people and snoozes.

Jen Lister: 7:09

I just want to do work really hard. And again, I remember working alongside a really talented guy who would always be the top of everything and his work would always be showcased and he was really good at Excel modelling and I'd be like, oh god, excel modelling, I could do it. But I didn't enjoy it. And I just remember always feeling inadequate.

Jen Lister: 7:29

And, yeah, I remember being taken into the partner's office and being told I hadn't got it, when basically everyone in my year group, which was probably about a hundred people most people would have got that because it was like the time for everyone to go up and there was me and one other guy in strategy that hadn't got it. Wow, there's probably about 12 or 13 strategy people in my intake. So I was so embarrassed I actually felt like thinking about should I kill myself? Which I know sounds really extreme, but my partner had to get all my belongings, I was sobbing, she had to walk me out of the office and I remember going to sit somewhere in Liverpool Street and just crying and crying and crying and on the way they're thinking about the mental health side of things and really really struggling.

Jen Lister: 8:14

But I haven't talked about that loads. I have talked about it a little bit, but it was a really bad time.

John Hawker: 8:20

Yeah, I mean, it sounds it. I mean, if there's one example of it being a bad time, then getting to that point, it's ridiculous, though it's so ridiculous when I look back Completely in hindsight, it's like to think that you ever got into that mindset about a job and an opportunity like that. I guess, yeah, it's easy Now. You've been through other experiences as well, but at that time it might have felt like the end of the world for you.

Jen Lister: 8:42

It did. And do you know why? Because I worry way too much what other people think of me, which is the worst thing. It's something I try not to hate, anything about myself, but it's the thing I find really frustrating about myself, because I struggle with it all the time.

John Hawker: 8:57

Wow, okay, so you get to this point. The promotion is you're sort of looked over for that promotion. Yeah, you're left in quite a dark space from your own description. So what happened beyond that point? You made the decision to step away.

Jen Lister: 9:10

Basically. So I remember the next. I must have stayed for another like three months or so and I couldn't eat. So I remember the Christmas. I couldn't eat my Christmas dinner and I love food, like I'm massive foodie.

John Hawker: 9:23

We've got snacks here today. On your request as well, we have put caramel filled buns.

Jen Lister: 9:26

I'm very happy about those and I remember that for me was I'd been a bit unwell before that, like I'd just not been eating right. I had been feeling really sick on projects and just not feeling right. And on Christmas day I remember there being a trigger and me going there is something wrong with me because I can't eat, like I was surrounded by all my family, all the people I love, and I was just not there. So that was the instigator that made me think right, I've got to apply for another job and I did and I got two amazing job offers, one at Virgin Media as a strategy manager and one at Debenhams as a strategy manager.

Jen Lister: 9:59

And I actually took the Virgin Media one and then got off with the Debenhams one and because of the whole fashion design thing, I was like I really want to work in fashion. I don't know how I got those jobs because I was in such a bad place with my mental health, but I know. The only thing I can say is that I needed it so much. But I needed to leave Deloitte because of what I'd been through, which sounds dramatic, but for me it did feel like really tough.

John Hawker: 10:23

Yeah, well, that environment, I think the big four consulting firms, and we're talking about a significant amount of time ago now. So I'm hoping that there's been a cultural shift. But I hear a lot of stories to this day about there being big drivers and big pressures on, especially on what I tend to be sort of emerging consultants coming through as well.

John Hawker: 10:44

So I really hope that that situation doesn't happen again, because ultimately it'd be easy to say you were disappointed because you didn't get promotion. But there's ways of managing those expectations. There's ways of managing the delivery of that news as well, yeah. So, and it seems fated that these opportunities were offered to you, and it shows that you had something to give it just wasn't working for you.

Jen Lister: 11:07

in that environment I felt like it to Lloyd. I was like if I can just get through that glass ceiling a bit more, I'd be an amazing leader for them. But I wasn't the kind of person that was really showy with my analyst work and really I just didn't play the game right, and I know that and I wouldn't necessarily do anything differently because it's me, it's me and I'm not that person.

John Hawker: 11:27

I'd say it's a numbers thing as well with consulting sometimes and it's a one size fits all kind of thing and what they do is look to see who falls through the net and who's there at the end. I think individualism and a tailored approach again. I might get out of here, but I think that's the way that consulting work, especially when you're joining from university as well. They're putting you through the mill to see who comes out.

Jen Lister: 11:49

The bottom of that, that's Siv, basically and that's not a way that works for everyone. It's heartbreaking. I remember everyone talking about their bonuses at year end and they're all getting different amounts, and it's just. I just hate that level of confidence I feel like there's a physical hearing.

John Hawker: 12:03

You say, that is a physical reaction, like hearing that is, it's sick yeah. Okay, let's move on to happier times.

Jen Lister: 12:09

Yeah.

John Hawker: 12:10

I think the role at Virgin Media went to Debenhams instead.

Jen Lister: 12:14

Yeah.

John Hawker: 12:15

Did you say yes to Virgin Media I?

Jen Lister: 12:16

did, and I could have done with your advice at that time, because it was so hard calling them and being like thanks for the offer, but I've got another offer and I want to call them, but you called them.

John Hawker: 12:24

I did speak to them. Well, there you go, then this is a long time ago.

Jen Lister: 12:27

Yeah, who knows where my career would have gone if I'd have gone there. It's so weird to think like that sliding doors moment.

John Hawker: 12:32

Yeah, exactly, there's a parallel universe where you're, you know there's a. Virgin Media version of you. Yeah, and what was your experience in that role? I loved it.

Jen Lister: 12:43

I loved it so much. I remember my interview challenging so many things because I didn't agree with so many of the strategies at Debenhams and. I sit here now with Debenhams not existing on the high street.

John Hawker: 12:54

It's only an online store that someone bought when it went into administration, so you're not saying that you could have made a difference, but you kind of told yourself I couldn't make a difference.

Jen Lister: 13:03

Yeah, I couldn't do it, though I try it. I worked closely with the marketing director there and I had an amazing boss who was the head of strategy. I had two different bosses and they were both brilliant and they really championed me and I really feel like I fitted in to the industry side of things Like it for me and my personality. I really thrived. I would speak at marketing events with all of our marketing team and work with PR and design and social media and I loved it. I really I look back so fondly on my Debenham days, yeah.

John Hawker: 13:35

Because it sounds like it was just encompassing all the stuff that you enjoy doing and taking all those boxes.

Jen Lister: 13:40

It was, it really was yeah.

John Hawker: 13:42

And what was the team like there? Did you have someone that was advocating for you there, or a champion or a mentor, or someone that you were working closely alongside? Definitely.

Jen Lister: 13:51

The marketing director was Richard Christoffery and he was really supportive of my career. And then I had an amazing boss called Kate Parkinson who I think works maybe for the White Company now.

John Hawker: 14:00

Right.

Jen Lister: 14:01

But she was amazing, championed me and I just feel like I developed loads and I was able to grow my own team as well. So, I was like, and I love developing other people and like bringing in people and, yeah, letting them step up as leaders. One of my team got promoted to strategy manager and that, for me, is a real good sign of a good leader when you're bringing other people up through their careers. So I just, I just loved it. I can visualize it now, yeah.

John Hawker: 14:26

You can see as well when you face when you're talking about it. Yeah, so all the things that were motivating you and keeping you engaged in that role lend itself perfectly to what you ended up doing now, which is coaching and elevating people and taking people or supporting people on their journeys as well. Yeah, post-debinance.

Jen Lister: 14:45

Oh yeah, are we in Australia now? We're in Australia, we're in Australia 2014. Yeah, so we're going to talk about family now because so my parents in. When I was 27, I got sat down by my mother. I've never talked about this before, but my mom sat down with me and told me her and my dad were splitting up.

John Hawker: 15:02

Right.

Jen Lister: 15:04

And I was to say I was shocked would be an understatement, because my mom and dad.

John Hawker: 15:07

So, 27 years old, I was 27. You're being sat down to be told that your parents aren't going to be together anymore. Yeah, okay, yeah.

Jen Lister: 15:15

We'd just celebrated their 25th wedding anniversary a few years before and they were like best friends my mom and dad. They weren't particularly affectionate with each other, I wouldn't say which. I guess in hindsight you can see that maybe that was one of the reasons, but that was like through me so much. And the reason it's relevant is I got a phone call from a Scottish recruiter. I remember him being Scottish and he was like I've got an opportunity in Australia, are you interested? Now I would have probably said no, but because of what happened with my family, I was like my reaction sometimes to things is like I just need to go be on my own and go insular. So I was like, okay, well, I'll give it the time of day and I went through the recruitment process.

John Hawker: 15:52

Yeah.

Jen Lister: 15:53

It was tough. Deloitte Consultancy Strategy Recruitment Process was tough. I remember one of the questions was how much revenue do they make from the London Eye in one year? And you had to go through a strategic process.

John Hawker: 16:05

Right, okay.

Jen Lister: 16:06

You're like what?

John Hawker: 16:08

Because I was going to say like I don't know how would you even start to know that? But you're okay, there is a process.

Jen Lister: 16:12

There's a process of like how many pods are there? What's? The average ticket price and you times everything together and you divide things. Whatever you do, you get to a number. So similar kind of strategic questions, multiple interviews and I got offered the job in Australia, which was just mad.

John Hawker: 16:31

That's really interesting because I was going to ask around the reasons, like what was the catalyst? For you moving out there in the first place, and it was. It was there. Okay, how did your parents react to that?

Jen Lister: 16:40

Oh, it was awful. It was awful. Did they feel like?

John Hawker: 16:42

it was. It was their, their yeah.

Jen Lister: 16:46

My mum was very upset and it affected my relationship with my mum when the break up happened. Quite, that was quite difficult. My dad was just very sad and he made me this DVD of all of my friends and family saying goodbye messages to me and he we did like a leaving party and played it. It was so lovely. I've still got it, but I don't think I've ever watched it, since I think I need to.

John Hawker: 17:09

Yeah, you should.

Jen Lister: 17:10

But yeah so so I went to Australia and worked for Woolworths, which is their biggest supermarket retailer. It's a bit like Tesco or Sainsbury's out here. Because, everyone thinks it's the Woolworths that went under in the UK which was like the sweetie CD shop, If anyone remembers, but it was a pick and mix. Oh, the pick and mix.

John Hawker: 17:28

Legendary pick and mix, yeah. Oh yeah, but Woolworths. Woolworths is a different entity in Australia, so you went out there. If you don't want me asking. You were on your own completely. You weren't in a relationship at the time.

Jen Lister: 17:39

I was not on my own, I was in a relationship.

John Hawker: 17:42

You were in a relationship, okay.

Jen Lister: 17:43

So this is. This gets interesting. So I'd just got together with my friend of eight years that I met on the first day of university.

John Hawker: 17:51

Right.

Jen Lister: 17:52

And I said and we just got together a few months before and I was like, do you want to come with me? And he said yes. So, Woolworths funded us both to move out there. Yeah, amazing To answer your question, okay, so you're out in Australia, it always interests me.

John Hawker: 18:07

First off, I applaud anyone that can do it Sort of stepping out of your comfort zone, moving away from all your family, the support network that you've got around you, and going to a different country. So how old are you? You're 27.

Jen Lister: 18:19

About 27. Yeah.

John Hawker: 18:21

So I'd done some traveling in Australia and at that time I just saw this huge influx of people wanting to move out to us and do these things and I can see the appeal completely. Yeah. But what is it like when you touch down in a new country, in a new job, in a new relationship and settling in? You were there two years right.

Jen Lister: 18:39

I was there just over two years, two and a half years.

John Hawker: 18:41

Yeah, okay, what's your experience like for you?

Jen Lister: 18:45

All I can remember is drinking champagne on the plane and being I think we were like not necessarily first class, but business class or something.

John Hawker: 18:52

And it was a really lovely, lovely journey.

Jen Lister: 18:54

It was weird. I don't know. I don't really know what to say. It was so weird.

John Hawker: 19:01

Yeah, do you look back on that time there with fond memories?

Jen Lister: 19:07

It's mixed.

John Hawker: 19:08

Okay.

Jen Lister: 19:09

I look when I see Australia, the best things about it are the brunches. Oh my God, the brunches are just incredible. And as a family, to bring up a family there, where you're always outdoors, there's open space with barbecues. Literally in the park, they have barbecues where you just go for the weekends and have fun. The beach is like that outdoor lifestyle I am so jealous of. I wish we had more of that here.

John Hawker: 19:34

I wish the weather was conducive to it. It's a lifestyle thing for a lot of people, isn't it? And if they seem to have got, this might be a generalisation but, work-life balance. They've got it right, or a bigger percentage of the population have got it right.

Jen Lister: 19:47

I think they have, but they do work quite long hours in the week. They really do and I think so what happened is my boyfriend at the time. He wanted to live on Bondi Beach because he wanted to go surfing every morning.

John Hawker: 20:00

Obviously, he never did that, but we still lived on Bondi Beach.

Jen Lister: 20:02

And I had to commute an hour each way every day.

John Hawker: 20:06

Were you in Sydney, like the centre of Sydney.

Jen Lister: 20:09

So my work wasn't. My work was near the Blue Mountains. If anyone knows Australia, I've been. Yeah.

John Hawker: 20:14

That's not near well. It's near Sydney in relation to how big Australia is, but it's not an easy journey.

Jen Lister: 20:21

It was an hour's commute from Bondi so I was driving in. Oh my goodness, the drivers in Australia are actually mental, Like actually mental. They undertake you all the time even if, like, it's not even remotely safe to do so. I did not miss that driving at all and I had a convertible, so I would drive it a convertible. I'm not sure why I was doing this.

John Hawker: 20:43

Yeah, well.

Jen Lister: 20:45

So I've got really mixed feelings. I didn't really find a friendship group out there and I believe I realised that in the 13 years before I settled down, which was a couple of years ago, I've lived in 13 different places and I believe the secret to like the happiness in those places is finding community groups and finding friends that you are like connected to, and I don't think I did that in Australia. I did start NETBALL and I did start to find friends, but they all were Australians and they all had their own friends and family and I just didn't really, I didn't really settle.

John Hawker: 21:21

Okay.

Jen Lister: 21:22

Missed people a lot.

John Hawker: 21:23

Missed people a lot. So what was the impetus to come back? So just over two years?

Jen Lister: 21:29

I remember FaceTime and my best friend, anna, who was my friend from uni, my best friend from uni, and I think she just told me she was pregnant with her first baby and I was like I have to be, I have to come back.

John Hawker: 21:40

You just shy 30 at this point? Yeah, I think for a lot of people, like you know, maybe, yeah, that kind of tends to be the age Everyone's having babies.

Jen Lister: 21:49

And obviously my brother probably wasn't far off having babies and I thought I've not been around for that. It just made me go. I need to come home. So we did a massive, massive trip and I can I just say I did two years exactly at Walrus, so that I didn't have to pay back my relocation. Oh that was it.

John Hawker: 22:06

So that was the marker for you to get across that line.

Jen Lister: 22:08

I literally had in my notes in on that day. How bad is that.

John Hawker: 22:10

Did you really Okay?

Jen Lister: 22:13

And then I did like a, we did like three or four months traveling and we did like an M shape around Australia. So we started in Sydney, went up the East Coast, went through the middle, because I'd got, we'd got a dog. Okay, right, no story, no.

John Hawker: 22:27

I love it. This is a really long story. Carry on, go on. You might need to cut some of this out.

Jen Lister: 22:33

The dog was from a place called Uendermee, which was a place in the Outback which was amazing and they had like an Aboriginal Arts Centre. It was just incredible. And then we went north again Broom, I would highly recommend, and Western Australia, I would highly recommend. That was my favourite place to travel.

John Hawker: 22:47

Yeah, and then flew home, and that was that. Then flew home, did you all of that international experience that you had?

Jen Lister: 22:53

do you?

John Hawker: 22:53

think that has benefited you in any way in what you're doing now or what you went on to do.

Jen Lister: 22:59

It's made me realise what I don't want and what I do want. One of the things I struggled with working in Australia or working in the company I worked in, was the culture and this is controversial, but people wore badges with what year you'd been a member of the company since.

John Hawker: 23:15

Oh, wow.

Jen Lister: 23:16

And some of them was like 1980 and I wasn't even born in 1980.

John Hawker: 23:20

So it's quite institutionalised, it was very institutionalised.

Jen Lister: 23:22

It was very middle aged white male, dominated, and people would say to me oh, you probably weren't even born when I started and I'm like, so, as a female, trying to influence was really, really difficult, yeah.

John Hawker: 23:36

Because straight away people have that interpretation or perception of you. That how is anything you're going to say going to be a value to me and I struggled with that throughout my career.

Jen Lister: 23:47

I remember when I was at Debenhams one of the buying directors said to me when I first met you I thought you were really young and I really struggled to take on board any of your strategic advice and ideas and she's like but you've really proved yourself and she was really complimentary. But that's what really stayed with me and I hope that anyone listening that has experienced that, knows that you've just got to keep going. But people do have that perception sometimes of you as a female.

John Hawker: 24:13

Isn't it strange as well that the starting point, even though that's a lovely compliment to have received, to be told that you proved yourself?

Jen Lister: 24:19

Yeah.

John Hawker: 24:20

I mean by virtue of you being in that role. You've proven yourself through whatever interview process you're. There shouldn't have to take that much. And there is age bias.

Jen Lister: 24:29

Most definitely.

John Hawker: 24:30

There's obviously sexism and the view of you as a young woman being in those roles, working with older people in general. It's just a sad state of affairs that that starting point is still. You prove yourself to me.

Jen Lister: 24:43

It is, but, like you said, hopefully it's different now.

John Hawker: 24:45

I think it's like the shift and I think, for someone like yourself, you are a champion through the podcast that you do and the work that you do and the things that you speak about for young women that are also going through that journey. So I think you definitely are and I think what you're targeting something in those people that hopefully give them a bit more confidence to keep moving with that. And then we're going to keep going on the chronology, if that's okay. Yeah, you sure.

Jen Lister: 25:07

I'm not talking too much.

John Hawker: 25:08

No, I love it. This is great. So back from Australia. I looked at your kind of career path from this point.

Jen Lister: 25:16

You can still give me your LinkedIn.

John Hawker: 25:17

Basically, that's all I do. That's my day, it's your life. I'd say it's a bit of a pivot at this stage. Obviously utilising all the skills that you've got Just tell the listeners what you went in to do on your return.

Jen Lister: 25:32

I started my own business in the care sector.

John Hawker: 25:36

Why.

Jen Lister: 25:36

Okay. So I did a lot of soul searching when I got, when I knew I wanted to leave Woolworth's, but obviously I was still kind of riding out a little bit. I love old people, like I love hanging out with old people. That's just a weird thing of mine. I love their stories, the war stories. I love their wisdom. I love hearing about their love stories when they're together since they were 13. Oh, that's a bit young, but you know, like 17, they met and then they went off to war.

Jen Lister: 26:00

then they came back and they're still in love today, yeah.

John Hawker: 26:03

I love it. A bit of a romantic in there somewhere.

Jen Lister: 26:06

I love is one of my biggest values in life, absolutely so I wanted to get into something with elderly people so I looked at working for kind of care companies like companies like Bupa and companies like that in the care sector in strategy, but I mean those roles are really few and far between. I looked at charity work a little bit when I got back as well, and then on Boxing Day or Christmas no, it was Christmas Eve I saw my cousin, lisa and she said do you want to come to a franchise exhibition with me? So we went to the national franchise exhibition in the January, spent the time wandering around and being like this is so weird. Like there's so many random franchises like kids trampoline franchise and all sorts of random stuff, like lots of gym franchises.

John Hawker: 26:51

Yeah.

Jen Lister: 26:52

Obviously there was some care ones. So we met the owners of Radfield and we met some owners of some other ones and we basically went through a process from there and Lisa and I started a business together.

John Hawker: 27:01

So it was with your cousin.

Jen Lister: 27:02

Yeah, yeah.

John Hawker: 27:03

Wow, okay, yeah, I think I described that as a pivot Massive pivot. Just, even if it's just sector to go into care. But it's nice to get that backstory about the sort of passion that you had and crazy.

Jen Lister: 27:15

You say that now.

John Hawker: 27:16

I just touched upon what I used to do. So part of my role when I was working in the fitness industry was to do the things called false prevention classes, and that was for elderly people. Oh no, I worked for that NHS for the best part of five years and some of the best friendships I ever struck up were with people in their 70s and 80s, that kind of hit the fuck it switch, and we're happy to say anything they wanted to say, and it was amazing just to hear those stories. And sometimes it was about the war, sometimes it was about I don't know what it was.

John Hawker: 27:47

I remember having a really interesting conversation with someone that was getting bars fitted, had bars fitted in their house and just the whole process of talking that through as well, and it was just one of the most captivating things I'd heard, which is sad, but it resonates with me. When you say you like old people, yeah, that strikes a chord. So a sector that you don't know anything about really, you know business, you know strategy. How was that experience for you and how did it end?

Jen Lister: 28:17

God, that's a really good question the experience. So I always had and I say this because I feel like people listening might feel like this I always had something in me that was like I want to have my own business one day. I want to have my own business and I never knew what it would be in. I was almost desperate to have my own business for some reason. I just felt like it was my calling.

John Hawker: 28:37

Let's tap into that just for one second.

Jen Lister: 28:39

Yeah.

John Hawker: 28:40

Explore that a little bit more. Why, why, what, what inside you was sort of promoting this message that you needed it.

Jen Lister: 28:45

One of the things I didn't like about working with someone else was being told when you can have holidays and when you can't.

John Hawker: 28:51

Autonomy, basically. That's why I thought I'd put that up in.

Jen Lister: 28:56

My goal when I was in corporate, when I started to do it, was to be a partner. That didn't happen. My goal then when I went to Devrooms was like I want to be a CEO one day. Hasn't happened, might happen one day. I'm still open to the idea. So I'm not like I'd never have a job again. I just wanted to try out entrepreneurship and I guess it was a safer way to do it in a partnership setting with a franchise. So if people don't know much about franchises, it gives you lots and lots of support and there's lots you can find out about them. There's lots of pros, there's lots of cons. You have to give away some of your profits because you're paying them for the branding and the support and lots and lots of things. But I'd say it's really worth it if you've got a good, credible franchise that you can be part of.

John Hawker: 29:37

It's a really good point actually, and I don't think that's a part that many people would explore as well so having. You can still be an owner, still have autonomy, still have this freedom to build something, but you don't have to do it completely from scratch.

Jen Lister: 29:50

You're inheriting elements of that business and I think systems get so confusing when you start a business and doing what you do in tech, they sort all that stuff out for you. All of that admin side, everything's given to you. It's like a business in a book or business on a plate. You just tap into it and obviously you have to grow it. You've got the community-based business, which is quite nice as well.

John Hawker: 30:10

Yeah, brilliant. So you've got this entrepreneurial drive in you. That box has now been checked. You are running something.

Jen Lister: 30:18

Yeah.

John Hawker: 30:19

Go on then. So how was it?

Jen Lister: 30:21

It was the hardest thing I've ever done, but also very rewarding. It is a 24-7 business because you're looking after elderly people. We were specialising in elderly care in the community, going to people's homes, employing carers, but there might be something that happens in the middle of the night. Calls go from 6am in the morning, like visits go from 6am in the morning until 11pm at night. I love my sleep, so you have to be on call 24-7. So it was really tough. The other things that were tough were the weather, because when there was snow, not only have you got to be mindful of your clients, but your carer is out on the road.

Jen Lister: 30:58

It's really dangerous. You've got to make difficult decisions. Sometimes you've got to decide we're not actually going to visit you because you're not critical those kind of things are horrible to have to do and the worst part is your clients pass away. So I had one of my favourite clients. His name was Ron and I know that his family wouldn't mind me saying it they're literally the most amazing family in the world. I took him on a seven-day cruise around. It was called the voyage of remembrance because he was a war veteran.

Jen Lister: 31:29

It was one of the most amazing experiences I had, but it was so challenging. He lived with dementia. He loved whiskey as well. He was the kindest, most loving man and he did pass away. And he passed away during COVID. I couldn't even say goodbye to him. I did say goodbye on FaceTime to him. I remember very clearly, but the relationships you build up were amazing.

John Hawker: 31:56

Well, because I guess in that space you have to have that about you, don't you? You have to care, because people that go into those businesses and see it as a business see it as a money-making entity and nothing else. We hear horror stories about what can happen in care systems, but I think anyone that goes into it with that feeling of empathy and just humanity you have to have that Definitely, and I feel like we really did that.

Jen Lister: 32:21

We built up such an amazing reputation. We were nominated for nine awards and won seven awards in four years.

John Hawker: 32:28

Amazing.

Jen Lister: 32:29

And I'm really proud and the business is still going today. So my cousin still runs it. I've left the business now but she still runs it and I actually saw a Facebook post this morning with some lovely comments about the business. To be able to help the people in the community is yeah.

John Hawker: 32:45

I think that's something that goes under the radar for a lot of people as well. When it comes to work, it's like what you're doing and the impact that it has on community society in general. So it's the double whammy, isn't it, ultimately? Of yes, you're making a living, yes, you're an owner of a business but you're also making a positive impact beyond just revenue.

Jen Lister: 33:05

Yeah, and you know, one of the things I loved loads which I didn't really think about much before I did it was employing people, giving people jobs because our carers would buy a house and you're like, oh my God, they're buying that house because they've got the job with us and we've given them that guaranteed income. Like that, for me, was really, really rewarding.

John Hawker: 33:25

Yeah, amazing.

Jen Lister: 33:26

Which I didn't expect the clients and the client families, obviously. When you hear them say thank you for looking after my dad or mum at the end of their life, that's yeah. You can't even put that into word.

John Hawker: 33:37

Yeah, definitely, I think, on the management piece as well. I don't know you're sharing that celebration, aren't you, of someone progressing, and you know that you're part of that foundation as well, if that happening which I think is a driver for good managers and good business owners.

Jen Lister: 33:52

Yeah. Other people just don't care, some people just don't care, some people just don't care, yeah, it's different to the corporate environment like the management structure in corporate versus a leadership structure in a business that's a small business just because it has to be, you kind of have to feel like a family.

John Hawker: 34:09

Yeah, definitely. How did you exit?

Jen Lister: 34:12

I am happy to talk about it. It was a really it was another really tricky mental health time for me. So I had my daughter in 2020 during the pandemic, the. Before my daughter came, the business was already being affected by the pandemic, because it was a really difficult time and obviously they're making decisions in a care business amongst.

John Hawker: 34:36

I can't imagine how challenging it was.

Jen Lister: 34:37

Yeah, and my cousin absolutely took the lead in that time and she was incredible and massively took the lead on all of that, partly because I was literally massive and pregnant and about to have a baby. But yeah, she was brilliant. The easiest way to put it is we started having conversations and it was clear that we wanted the business to go in slightly different directions and then we went through a process of negotiation. It was so tough because I was breastfeeding my daughter and I had loads of problems with that throughout. My hormones were all over the place, because when you're a new parent and my daughter was like four months when we started having these conversations- yeah.

Jen Lister: 35:21

And by the time my daughter was a year, I'd sold the business to her, and it was really a really difficult decision because, I'd put my heart and soul. I'd worked for nothing at the start in the business. I'd put everything into it and one of the hard things was like can you walk away from something that's still going to continue?

John Hawker: 35:43

Do you know what I mean? Watch it from the sidelines.

Jen Lister: 35:45

Yes, that was so hard.

John Hawker: 35:47

Yeah.

Jen Lister: 35:48

It was so hard and there's lots of my own personal mental health stuff that probably I still haven't dealt with to some extent, because I went through a lot of anxiety and it was difficult because it was a family member too.

John Hawker: 36:01

To use a really horrible cliche of building a business. It's kind of your baby You've built something for the grown-up. You've nurtured it, you've helped it grow yeah it's a terrible cliche.

John Hawker: 36:11

And then to maybe feel like part of that decision is being made upon the arrival of your actual baby coming into the world as well. That's quite complicated and the worth and the value that you put on yourself as a business owner someone built something and then how that combats against being a mother as well and it's quite conflicting. I guess some elements of that I mean that is absolutely conflicting.

Jen Lister: 36:37

You don't know how you're going to feel until that baby arrives. And I know when you say what did I want to be when I was older? All I wanted to be was be a mum, and be a young mum. I wanted to have a kid by the time I was 25. That was me. This is a whole other story. But when I was 30, I was single and told that I had some fertility tests and I was told that I couldn't have a baby. So that was really hard for me. So when I did have Mabel, it was the most magical thing and I don't think I'm one of those obsessive mothers, but I absolutely wanted to pull my heart and soul into being a mum and being the best possible mum I could be.

John Hawker: 37:14

That's amazing, and I think that that story is going to resonate with a lot of people as well that journey that you've been on and that view of being a mother and going through what was sounds like an incredibly challenging time just to conceive as well, after being told that maybe there will be some challenges along the way of happening and just to like drop in there again in case you've got any females listening. I'm sure, I'm sure I mean mum mum will listen, mum's listening.

Jen Lister: 37:43

I don't think this is relevant for your mum right now.

John Hawker: 37:45

I'm sure we will.

Jen Lister: 37:46

I am, and I'm happy to share this because I really hope it inspires people. I had three rounds of fertility treatments, or had my eggs frozen three times. Some people can just do it once because they've got loads of eggs.

Jen Lister: 37:59

I didn't, so I had to have three rounds of it, had to inject myself, and I remember this is a funny story I remember dating someone and him coming around my house and we had beers in the fridge and I had my injections in the fridge because I had to be stored in the fridge and I was like, oh my God, I tried to hide it with the butter and the milk and stuff. I was like he sees that I'm basically trying to impregnate myself, he's going to freak out, and that didn't last very long.

John Hawker: 38:25

I mean it's an honest breaker, yeah.

Jen Lister: 38:28

Here's my fertility treatment, and I say that because I've spoke to quite a few of my friends and just people that have connected me with other people that really want to have a baby, that they're like in their thirties now and they're worried about, like, whether they can. That was where I was and I did have treatment. I'm not saying that everyone should have that and needs to have that, but I genuinely believe it. Anyway, I'll see you guys in a bit. Ben and we've had our baby, so yeah, it all worked out for me.

Jen Lister: 38:56

Who knows what everyone else's journey will be?

John Hawker: 38:57

but I hope it inspires people Again. I think just sharing that will inspire a lot of people definitely. So your daughter's Mabel. Mabel arrives, you pour your heart and soul into this brand new human being that you've created, with all the story that's brought that about as well, which is incredibly inspiring. So how long after Mabel's arrival, do you decide that you're gonna start your current venture, which is your business coaching?

Jen Lister: 39:24

I didn't necessarily decide. Ben kind of made me do it, so my now husband wasn't at the time. Do you know what I wanted to do? I wanted to be myself. I decided that I wanted to be my own brand, hence the name Jen Lister. It's so boring, I know.

John Hawker: 39:38

I like it.

Jen Lister: 39:39

it works I wasn't even married to Ben Lister at the time.

John Hawker: 39:43

Oh wow, you're just adopting surname.

Jen Lister: 39:45

I had to ask him do you mind if I start a business using your surname in the hope that we might get married one day?

John Hawker: 39:51

So was it not a conversation at this point? No, no, no, we weren't even engaged.

Jen Lister: 39:55

We hadn't even talked about whether we were gonna get married.

John Hawker: 39:57

A statement of intent, isn't it? I guess?

Jen Lister: 39:58

And he hates getting married in weddings. He didn't want to get married. So I sit here now, having got through the first year of a marriage.

John Hawker: 40:06

So congratulations.

Jen Lister: 40:08

But I wanted and I'm not afraid to say this, I wanted a new identity. Like all of my previous business and career, history was with Bardrick, my previous surname, which you know me as from school, and, honestly, the amount of people that spell that name wrong. I've had like Bald Dick before.

Jen Lister: 40:24

Oh, my word, okay, it's pretty bad, it gets really bad, but generally speaking, it's like Bardwick most of the time. Yeah, I asked Ben, do you mind if I just use your name, because that would be really handy. I just wanted to create my own brand. That was really true to me. That was like spreading love, like spreading values that were important to me. So I just set up and this is quite useful for people to think about is I just set up an Instagram page and I tried to inspire people through that and I also secretly and you all love this wrote a blog. I started a blog and I did a blogging challenge because I know you love writing.

John Hawker: 41:00

I do yep.

Jen Lister: 41:01

I did a 30 day blogging challenge on Facebook with someone called Sarah Arrow who is amazing and I did one blog a day for 30 days and just created this secret blog no one knew about, didn't tell Ben about it, didn't tell anybody about it Because, like I said to the start, I worry what people think of me and it really affects me and influences me and I'm like I need to do something that's private, that no one knows about, and this was way before I started the coaching business. But like these were all things that I guess in hindsight influenced where I went with it, and coaching kind of felt like the right thing to do.

Jen Lister: 41:35

So, Ben, the reason I said Ben got me into it was he got me my first client. So he his boss at the time was saying that he needed some support and could do is a bit of coaching. And Ben was like, well, Jen's got so much business experience she could help you. So that was how it happened. That was my first client.

John Hawker: 41:52

Wow, and how quickly did that come about? Did you? Was there any element of you that thought, shit, I need to try and now bring all this business experience that I've got and productise it a little bit more? Or was it more of? Did that journey with that first client help shape what you're now doing? Because I'd say your process is very slick, but I can imagine maybe at the start it takes time to build that, Especially if it's you should do this. Here's your first client, yeah.

Jen Lister: 42:18

I remember the sales conversation because I hate that word, but the conversation I had with his boss and being an absolutely shitting myself about it Because I was like I was propositioning like a four figure amount which for your very first client is quite a lot of money to try and sell and it scared the crap out of me, don't know really.

Jen Lister: 42:41

I decided to work with a coach and again, I probably didn't tell anyone. I mentioned it to Ben. I don't think he quite realised how much money I was going to be spending. But I worked with a coach to like create and craft what I was doing and that sort of helped your brand and your product.

John Hawker: 42:56

Yeah, my offer yeah.

Jen Lister: 42:59

And just feel like a bit more confident and help me with those kind of sales conversations and that sort of stuff. So I'd say that was a really big help actually.

John Hawker: 43:07

Did you invest in that before you had a client lined up, or was that kind of around the same?

Jen Lister: 43:12

time About the same time. Yeah, about the same time yeah.

John Hawker: 43:15

I mean. What you're offering is a perfect example of investing in your own development and yourself, and from my perspective, so it's worth saying as well as knowing you from school. It's not the reason I'm working with you as a coach, but I'm also one of your clients as well.

John Hawker: 43:29

So thank you for that Love working with you and the impact you've had on what I'm doing has been huge, and I think that's one of the lessons I would give to anyone starting out doing anything. Actually investing in that much earlier would have been if I could get in a time machine and do it. That's what I would have come back and done. Before probably even launching a website is actually have a conversation with you, or a number of conversations, and get a clear idea of what I was doing.

Jen Lister: 43:56

I love that you said that and I had this vision with my business, which I haven't materialized yet. But I would love to have some clients that are in corporate but want to get out and want to just craft a bit of a plan and just start from. I enjoy doing this and to actually see it turn into the business for them. And I've kind of done that with a few clients. But I feel like there must be people out there that want to do that and I agree, doing it right at the start of your journey you miss so many mistakes Because even just the tactical things about how to invoice your clients, all of those things that just overwhelm you, they really overwhelm you.

John Hawker: 44:32

It's easy for those to be reactive things as well. All the pits up work. Okay, you're sort of going through the process. I need to send an invoice for this work at some point. I need to request payment, I need to sort out payment terms. Much better to get all of that clear in your mind the process, the contract, the legal stuff. It was just horribly stressful for me when I first started Winning work, finding someone to start then being I need to find a payment vehicle to actually be able to pay this contractor.

John Hawker: 45:01

So I hadn't even sorted that out before because it was a cost to it. So it's chicken and egg. You're wondering where to go, so your guidance has been amazing from my side.

Jen Lister: 45:11

So the advice I've given to anyone is seek out a coach or a mentor early on in the journey and I think they've got to resonate with you and you've got to connect with them and that's why I like sharing that, because I don't want everyone to want to work with me, like I want people to feel like they've got similar values to me, and I tend to attract people that have got boundaries in place and, like yourself, are parents. Sometimes I attract parents that they don't necessarily want their work to be all-encompassing, but they want it to be valuable, like purposeful, have a strong mission with what they do, but also they want to pick their kids up from school or they want to be there for their kids on the weekends and present and all that sort of stuff, which is not always easy. I haven't got my shit together, I promise.

John Hawker: 45:58

Yeah, the present he is of him is a very tough one to get right. This is going to put you on the spot, but I think you touched on elements already. Your ideal client profile what does it look like? Because it's easy to say I want people. I think your content and the way you come across kind of filters out the people that are going to work well with you and the ones that won't. But what does it look like? What does, either based on your client base now or the clients that you want to work with?

Jen Lister: 46:24

I love working with people that believe that business or that their business isn't everything, that they believe family is really important, or their health or their other relationships or whatever it is else that they like to do. They've got hobbies, which I know we've talked about. They've got more to their life and they know there's more to life than just their business. But with their business they've got a clear mission. My clients tend to be open-minded, they are ambitious. They do tend to be service-based businesses, I would say and I like that because I'm big on customer service and I believe that when you are a service-based business, you are the brand, aren't you?

Jen Lister: 47:03

So, personal brands I love working with, but I've worked with a mixture of photographers, obviously, your recruitment consultancy, financial services coaches as well. I've worked with a couple of coaches, which is really cool. I've got a personal stylist, which is really cool as well.

John Hawker: 47:20

Oh, hell, okay, yeah, yeah. So that variety must keep you engaged all the time. You end one call, and I don't know how many calls you do in a day. We'll talk about some of the boundaries you put in place with your business in a second as well, but you might end one call with me talking about random stuff sometimes. I mean actually a lot of the service you offer is counselling for me as well, which is great and I think part and parcel of just being a people person.

Jen Lister: 47:46

Yeah.

John Hawker: 47:47

So you'll speak with me and then, the same day, you might be speaking with your personal stylist client. You might be speaking with and I have to mention this a TEDx speaker.

Jen Lister: 47:55

Yeah, one of my clients.

John Hawker: 47:56

he's a TEDx speaker, which I think is one of the most incredible achievements the fact that you also had a hand in coaching them on that TEDx event. Talk to me about that. How did that feel?

Jen Lister: 48:05

I cannot take the credit, because she is just incredible in her own right. Her name's Danielle Howe and she's talked about us working together, so I can share.

John Hawker: 48:14

She was on your podcast recently. I listened to that episode earlier, so yeah.

Jen Lister: 48:17

That's a good episode of my podcast, yeah, the Genesis podcast. It was an amazing experience and I've actually got a strategy day with her coming up in July, which I'm so excited we're actually going to be in person doing that together for her business.

John Hawker: 48:30

Wow.

Jen Lister: 48:32

But just the speaking thing was just amazing. I loved it. I went to see the TED talk when she did it as well, which was and I didn't tell anybody that I was doing that work and someone said to me yesterday they were like you get that so quiet? I'm like I don't tell anybody about my clients unless they've posted it publicly on social media, or unless they've been vocal about it, because confidentiality to me is so important.

John Hawker: 48:55

It's the trust piece, isn't it? I think, yeah, yeah it's so important.

Jen Lister: 49:00

So, yeah, it was just amazing. Danielle is so coachable. Her message is huge because she doesn't just want to influence people that have periods and menstruate, she wants to influence the people that support those people. And I know from my personal experience that if I could put my husband through a course to tell him how he could support me more because it's hard and I know he finds it hard Like I would do that.

John Hawker: 49:24

Well, it's something as well, I think, and I've listened to part of the podcast. I haven't watched the TED talk yet. Sorry, danielle, I haven't done that, but I will be doing it. You'll be watching. But on the podcast I was listening to, you did mention Ben, your husband as well, but not just how you support your partner as a man, because that's why I was really intrigued as well when at the very start, you say it's not just for women.

Jen Lister: 49:49

That's so important to me.

John Hawker: 49:51

It's work as well businesses and how they're supporting people. So, I've done a few blogs now on menopause support in the workplace and what businesses are trying to offer.

Jen Lister: 50:02

Yeah.

John Hawker: 50:03

It's the same and a bigger conversation has had around periods as well now, but I think banging that drum and making sure it's not a taboo subject is really important. But just your hand in coaching someone that gets on a TEDx stage and I know it's her delivering it, but you have to take a hand in the coaching as well and then for TED to share that on their YouTube channel.

Jen Lister: 50:23

I know.

John Hawker: 50:24

It is just madness to me. That's massive yeah.

Jen Lister: 50:26

So we're trying to get the views up to a thousand. Yeah, ok. So if anyone wants to watch it, we'll link it in the links we can put that in the links as well to the podcast episode.

John Hawker: 50:34

But yeah, yeah. Ok, so that's amazing. So we all varied day to day for you in the life of a business coach because you're helping with so many elements of what people are doing.

Jen Lister: 50:46

Yeah, my weeks are crazy. I actually went for brunch yesterday, on a Tuesday, with somebody and they were like I told them that I only work two days a week, so I work Tuesday, wednesday mornings and all day Thursday.

John Hawker: 50:56

This is the boundary. I wanted to talk to you about these boundaries.

Jen Lister: 50:59

She was literally gobsmacked. She was like what she's like? You look like. You work so much more than that and I don't know if that's a good or a bad thing. The other thing I do that I should mention is I also run a networking group called the Village and it's just amazing, but that's a whole another thing, but that is another thing I spend my time on. So in those two days of my week I obviously coach my clients and I have boundaries around that because I would never want to coach I don't know more than three clients in a day, because I don't think it's fair, I don't think you can be your best self, it's a lot of energy, isn't it?

John Hawker: 51:32

When you're doing any, any form of conversation, you have to invest for them to get something out of it. So it is hard. I don't think you could do back to back calls just with me?

Jen Lister: 51:40

Jump on to another one. I need to go for a wee break. Yeah, not run out.

John Hawker: 51:46

That in itself is really is really challenging. Yeah those boundaries as well. You were very upfront and honest about how you work when we had our consulting call. Yeah, that does something, doesn't it, to siphon off the people that are going to work well with you? Because I think so.

John Hawker: 52:01

If I said to my clients OK, I'm going to work. I feel like I've got a better work-life balance than I've ever had. If I said to my clients, you'll only be able to contact me on a Tuesday, wednesday or Thursday. Some of the bigger businesses I work with they're not.

Jen Lister: 52:13

They're not going to work with me.

John Hawker: 52:15

So my balance looks different, because if I did that in a service-based industry that I'm working in, I just I just wouldn't get the clients. I implement different things, I'm honest about that, but I think the communication at the start of the relationship is really important, isn't? It and I think you're probably doing a really good job of curating this group of clients that get you, because they probably have similar.

Jen Lister: 52:36

Yeah, they have similar aspirations, I think as well. They don't want to have an all-encompassing business. Like I've spoke to people that have said I get an inquiry on a Sunday night and I reply straight away and I'm like you don't need to do that.

Jen Lister: 52:49

Like you don't need to. If they want to work with you that much and your business has got this great reputation they'll wait till 10 o'clock on a Monday morning for a response. That's something that I'm passionate about. I'll come on to my Instagram on a Tuesday morning and, just to be clear, I always check my client messages before I check.

John Hawker: 53:06

I can test that as well.

Jen Lister: 53:08

The first thing I do whenever I get to my desk. I sometimes have like tens of messages that I just haven't picked up and it's like someone shared your story and I'm like or tagged you in a story and I have no idea what it was, because it's disappeared. By now it's been more than 24 hours since I did it and I'm like damn it.

John Hawker: 53:23

It's not great for the algorithm, no, but it is good for mental health and getting the balance right and on those boundaries.

Jen Lister: 53:28

When I go on holiday for a week in the summer and I've been this year I don't go on any social media for the week. It's the best thing and I try and get my clients to do it. I've got clients that don't do things like that and they're like I wish I could, and I try and help them get towards that yeah.

John Hawker: 53:43

I implemented boundaries on the back of our first couple of sessions. They're kind of in place still. I read a book called Stolen Focus as well, which I might have talked to you about yeah. I called Johan Hari and have tried to double down on those. But again, in reality it's a lot harder to put some of those boundaries in.

Jen Lister: 53:59

What was that? The biggest thing from that book that you tried to? It was phone usage more than anything else.

John Hawker: 54:05

And then I've started to do, I think because on things like LinkedIn news feeds that I spend all day on anyway, you start to see these really hard hitting visual representations of the impact your phone has on your children and how you can be set on the sofa with your kid, and I think they did a really good version of this. I'll try and share this as well, but it was a group of posters showing this impact that if you're looking at your phone when your kid is set next to you, it's the equivalent of putting up like a brick wall between how they can engage with you. And that's what we're, that's what I'm teaching my kids Every time I'm sat there with the, with the excuse that it's for work and I'm trying to better our life, actually just blocking off their interaction with me.

Jen Lister: 54:46

It's so interesting. Twice in the last week or so Mabel has gone up to daddy or nanny and taken the device away, said put it over here, nanny or daddy, I want to cuddle, yeah. And I'm like, wow, that is huge.

John Hawker: 55:01

Both my boys do that. My oldest family is five, so he can he can like say that with a lot of impact now as well.

Jen Lister: 55:09

Yeah.

John Hawker: 55:09

My youngest Bodie kind of grunts it and says some words, but he will, he will just push your phone away and if, if you need to get to that point, then you've realized, OK, I need to put some things in place here as well, but you'll work on that and and conversations, I think again are inspiring because you're setting an example, I think, a lot of the time.

John Hawker: 55:28

Okay, I am thinking about this entrepreneur label. You've described it on some of your podcasts. I feel like you talk about the entrepreneurial world. You use the phrase mumprenor as well, which?

Jen Lister: 55:41

I find really difficult. I hate that name. I do hate it.

John Hawker: 55:45

That's what I was going to ask you because you, I think in the intro to Danielle you described her as a mumprenor.

Jen Lister: 55:50

She described herself.

John Hawker: 55:51

Talk to me then about your view of both the label. Let's start with entrepreneur. Do you describe yourself as an entrepreneur? I do.

Jen Lister: 55:58

I do because I have had multiple businesses and I've worked in corporate and I feel like bringing those together gives me that edge. I know that a lot of people struggle with the term entrepreneur. A lot of people in my networking group, for example, they'd rather the term business owner. So, I use that a lot in my verbiage. I don't use entrepreneur very much and we don't use it very much in our networking group verbiage. I don't know. I think it's got this connotation of multi-millionaire maybe, I don't know.

John Hawker: 56:29

I think that is some of the things that come to mind when you think of it.

Jen Lister: 56:33

Yeah, wrist taker. I just don't think people feel like it connects with them.

John Hawker: 56:38

But you would describe yourself as an entrepreneur. You're comfortable with that label.

Jen Lister: 56:41

I'm comfortable with it, but I don't know whether I just call myself a business owner.

John Hawker: 56:45

A business owner Because my take on it as well. I don't claim to be because I own a business and, to be honest, I own a business and I'm the only person working in that business. I say agency owner who? Knows if I start to build an empire, mini empire or scale it in some way. Maybe I'll start being more comfortable outside looking in Some people I think would describe me as an entrepreneur.

Jen Lister: 57:13

Yeah.

John Hawker: 57:14

But I don't classify myself as that.

Jen Lister: 57:16

So I will also say that we invest in property as well. So we've got another can call it a business. I mean, you worked in a business you're from corporate.

John Hawker: 57:26

You worked in a business, sold a business, now running another business and you invest in property. I think that label is much better suited to you than it is to me, but it's just how comfortable people are with adopting that.

Jen Lister: 57:38

Yeah, yeah.

John Hawker: 57:39

But I would describe you as such.

Jen Lister: 57:41

A lifestyle entrepreneur? Oh, I like that as well, I bet you that I bet you a verbiage.

John Hawker: 57:46

I like that With the mumpreneur label, then what's your problem with it?

Jen Lister: 57:50

I have nothing wrong with being very open about the fact that I'm a mum, but like would you call yourself a dad? Preneur.

John Hawker: 57:56

No, and I think you'd be shot down if you were, and that's what I mean. The label can't work in the reverse way. I don't think.

Jen Lister: 58:03

I think dadpreneur is not, but then that's not right.

John Hawker: 58:06

That's my opinion. I think societally it's mumpreneur has come out and people are supporting it and championing it. But I think if dads turn around and call themselves dadpreneurs, it's a different conversation and I get that it's a different thing, when you look at society.

Jen Lister: 58:21

But I'm so for like the relationship, whatever the relationship looks like, being very equal, and I've had my brother has been an amazing example of. He's like the stay at home dad for his boys and his wife. It's like the most incredible entrepreneur and same. Now, when it comes to my relationship, ben is probably the primary carer now and that wasn't expected and he's comfortable with it. He's and it's great, and I'm really advocate for the male role model in a child's life is so important, whether it's a dad, whether it's somebody else like. I just think that we just need to really value that and elevate that role and make sure that it's valued just as much as the female role.

John Hawker: 59:06

Yeah, I think, through some of the therapy that I've been through as well, about my relationship with my dad. My dad left when I was like two years old. So, some of those gaps that you're not even aware of. I would describe my childhood as so incredibly, so fortunate. My mum was my dad as well. Like she was incredible, but you do miss out on things there are. There are elements that you miss out, with a male role model not being in place for those formative years as well. It's just definitely fact.

Jen Lister: 59:36

So my friend just told me she's reading a book. My best friend just told me she's reading a book called raising boys, because she's got boys you know. You know who I'm talking about, probably, and she said that it's so interesting it talks about from like naught to five is very much mummy time, like. On the whole obviously that's a bit of a stereotype. But then from five onwards it's all about male role models in that boys life and that's so important for them to grow up to be a good.

John Hawker: 1:00:03

I'm going to recommend this book to my partner as well, because I think what she's struggling with at the moment is Finley's just turned five and it's a real transition from he always wanted to give me cuddles, he always came to me for support, and now it's shifted completely. Yeah he's five, like he's still developing, but it's hard as a parent I can see it. Not to take it as a sort of personal thing I don't like you anymore and to move across. Yeah.

Jen Lister: 1:00:26

And it's not that, but it is that they apparently they need, like the uncles, the football coach or the whatever whoever said like their teachers at school. If there's there's men and that they're at school like and I really yeah, it makes so much sense.

John Hawker: 1:00:40

Yeah.

Jen Lister: 1:00:40

And we need to do something to help our boys turn out to be fully rounded versions of themselves. Yeah, and be okay with their emotions and mental health. When it comes to to males, is is obviously like a massive issue in society Of course yeah, and I think I think making that part of the conversation is is key.

John Hawker: 1:00:59

I think we've yeah, just looping that all back to this this label Mumprenor. I mean people can label themselves as what the hell they want to call themselves, but I sort of I'd much more comfortable with entrepreneur yeah, mumprenor, for some reason it was just born a few years ago, wasn't it?

Jen Lister: 1:01:15

Maybe from people that have got businesses in that, maybe mum space a bit more, yeah, maybe it suits those people to some extent, but yeah, it's not, it's not for me, no.

John Hawker: 1:01:24

Yeah, okay. I'm never a fan of sort of gelling words together. Anyway, just leave me a second.

Jen Lister: 1:01:29

Can you think of any other awful ones? I?

John Hawker: 1:01:31

probably yeah and okay, so I'm going to take it back. This is something we can both talk about, I guess. But your experience of so you went to Westcliffe High School for girls, yeah.

Jen Lister: 1:01:41

I did.

John Hawker: 1:01:42

Wow Again might mean nothing to anyone listening, but that's a talk to us about that experience. So you finished at Fitzwine Mark. You try and get in to do some things at the rival school. I don't know why you do that, but you're going through college or sixth form.

Jen Lister: 1:01:59

Yeah, I don't think the reason I did this I didn't go to the college that everyone from Fitz went to was because my brother went. I'm sure he won't mind me saying this. My brother went and he did quite badly, considering he'd got like 10 or 11 A stars and A's at GCSE.

John Hawker: 1:02:12

So a very similar experience to me.

Jen Lister: 1:02:14

Yeah, he did not thrive in what was a very relaxed environment. He needed that structure, so I was like. I'm not risking that, even though I think I would have been okay. I'm going to go and have an interview and try and get into an all girls grammar school. That yeah, so I did that. But again another experience where I didn't really fit in. I just kind of had to get through the two years.

John Hawker: 1:02:36

I thought of leaving because I struggled to fit in and find friends and settle, because I guess a lot of those, a lot of the people there, would have come up through the secondary school system into sixth form and also, I don't think I would send my child to an all girls school personally, just because when I when I went there, this controversial, but I feel like they'd never seen a boy before.

Jen Lister: 1:02:58

A lot of them and like obviously, having gone to a mixed school, which I loved and be friends with guys and just be used to that kind of hanging out at break times, it just felt like I was going back a few years. Right, okay, without being mean, yeah, no, no, I think it makes sense and it's your interpretation of that as well.

John Hawker: 1:03:16

But yeah, I can see, I can see how not having that interaction. Yeah, again, you're just taking away how you deal with certain situations as well on you.

Jen Lister: 1:03:24

Yeah, yeah.

John Hawker: 1:03:25

The reason I bring college back up or sixth form is career guidance. Yeah, my views on the career guidance of people that are 15, 16, 17, 18 is that it's my experience was absolutely shocking. There were. If I had only stuck to the roots that my career advisor at CVIC had told me it would have been banking, it would have been well banking. Really that was the main one, the financial. Or to go and do some apprenticeship type program in a trade which.

John Hawker: 1:04:01

I'm not knocking even those routes, but that's kind of so stereotypical, so stereotypical.

Jen Lister: 1:04:05

So for a guy what?

John Hawker: 1:04:07

was your. What? Do you remember any of the career advice you got at that point? Did you get any?

Jen Lister: 1:04:12

I don't really remember it. No if I'm honest, I just I remember I did like geography, I loved maths, I was the double maths and I did like economics, but I don't really remember getting much in the way of career advice.

John Hawker: 1:04:27

It's a point for me again thinking I mean my son's five, so he's got a long way to go, but the world of work and what opportunities are going to be available to him. God knows what that's going to look like by the time he leaves education at what is now 18, isn't it? But yeah, I just think I left college and went straight into do a personal training course because my step dad at the time said you like going to the gym? And that was it. But if I'd known the vast array of opportunity out there to go and do different things, I don't know if I would have done. But you need more people talking about that, I think.

Jen Lister: 1:05:00

Yeah, and I think tapping into that. I don't know if you do any work in this area, but like working with young people and helping them with their careers is such an amazing thing to do. Because, I just think it is like a minefield and actually I think your step dad was probably right, Like doing something you love is never a bad thing.

John Hawker: 1:05:19

Yeah.

Jen Lister: 1:05:19

Because I still feel like I don't know what I actually want to do when I grow up.

John Hawker: 1:05:22

Oh yeah, I'm the same. Genuinely, there's elements of this that I love. I've always had a bit of a disconnect with, with the job that I do. I think a lot of it is built around something to you like caring what people think of me and just inheriting the stereotype that most people have about recruiters is quite tough.

Jen Lister: 1:05:43

Yeah.

John Hawker: 1:05:43

And you feel you're carrying that burden for the whole industry being shite and I'm trying to combat that as best I can. But there's a lot of disconnect with the self worth I have in what I do. Yeah, the reason I do. I'm trying to broaden out and do things like this podcast and add a bit more value and show your personality off. Show personality. Yeah, just trying to be your authentic self. Authenticity, I think, is one of the biggest things you can put out there and if you work authentically you will be happier, probably more engaged and get a lot more satisfaction from what you're doing.

Jen Lister: 1:06:14

Yeah, and you'll find people will be listening to your podcast before they approach you and they'll be like, oh, I quite like this guy. I'm going to get in contact.

John Hawker: 1:06:22

He hasn't mentioned his recruitment services once yet you wait Exactly, can you? This is going to be a really potentially difficult question, putting you on the spot again. So I prep people on all the questions I'm going to ask them. If you had to give a piece of advice to anyone that wanted to become an entrepreneur, what would the advice be?

Jen Lister: 1:06:42

First of all and this is a plug I have got mindset tips for someone starting or scaling a business on my website, so I can give you the link to that.

John Hawker: 1:06:51

Please do.

Jen Lister: 1:06:52

But what I would say. I would literally get a journal and a pen and keep it private and scribble down ideas. That would be my biggest bit of advice Brand name ideas. Offer ideas like things that you love doing, whether it's you want to sell a product or you want to sell a service, things you're good at like. Draft out a mock website, write ideas for blog posts, write ideas for social media posts. Just basically get a journal and start exploring your kind of. Some people definitely have got this entrepreneurial spirit in them and they keep it locked up, and I feel like that's what I did for 10 years in corporate. So, yeah, just getting a journal, getting a pen and actually giving yourself some headspace to get some of those ideas on paper. Because I've looked back at journals accidentally in the last year or so and I'm like, oh my god, I had this idea for the business I'm doing now like five years ago and I never acted on it Because I didn't feel strong enough.

Jen Lister: 1:07:51

I didn't feel like I could. I used to see coaches and you see them on Instagram and YouTube talking and people having podcasts. I used to see them and be like I could never be like that. I thought I was too old to start a business brand. Yeah, and I'm 35 now. So isn't that mental, like probably the ageism that I had from?

John Hawker: 1:08:11

corporate.

Jen Lister: 1:08:13

I was young back then and now I'm past it. I don't know.

John Hawker: 1:08:16

Yeah, don't say that at 35. No, I know, I know you can do anything.

Jen Lister: 1:08:20

I could start this when I was 70, if I wanted yeah.

John Hawker: 1:08:22

Well, I'll tell you what my mum, who's one of my biggest advocates, has just got the belief that you genuinely can do anything.

Jen Lister: 1:08:30

Oh, love that Again through therapy.

John Hawker: 1:08:32

I think sometimes that's given me a I don't know that's built his own issues into certain areas. But I want to bring my kids up in the same way. I feel like you should feel empowered. And, yeah, it has to be balanced with a dose of realism. Every now and again I think, but to be told that anything is possible, I don't see that as a bad thing.

Jen Lister: 1:08:53

No, I want to listen to your episode with your mum 100%.

John Hawker: 1:08:57

I love it. It's really. It was one of the best conversations and just be able to have that recording with my mum for posterity and just to go do you know what mum listen to that and what you've achieved was a really lovely moment actually.

Jen Lister: 1:09:08

That is wonderful.

John Hawker: 1:09:09

Probably the most. I've let my mum speak in however many years without interjecting and saying I've got to go and hang out FaceTime. So it was nice that was nice to do it.

Jen Lister: 1:09:17

I bet she felt so special and so loved.

John Hawker: 1:09:20

She should feel incredibly proud of what she's done this one yeah. Last point, and then I'm going to do the closing tradition. Okay, how has being a mum impacted your view of work?

Jen Lister: 1:09:33

What a good question. How did you, did you plan these questions?

John Hawker: 1:09:35

No, I didn't, Not that one. No, wow, I've got a few questions that are planned. Yeah, that's a great question. How is it?

Jen Lister: 1:09:41

Massively. All I want to do now is maybe it's because I've got a daughter, but I want to be a role model for her, like I want her to know that it's not just the man that works, for example, that I do go to work, but I can also be a really fun mum as well. But equally, I don't want to miss out. So I've thought about doing more hours at work. I've thought about putting her into nursery for longer days. I've thought about all those things and I go back over them quite regularly and I just, I just don't want to do it. I love the balance that I've got at the moment. We're thinking of getting a camper van at the moment.

John Hawker: 1:10:18

Same. Okay, we need to do what they say at lunch.

Jen Lister: 1:10:23

We could go away every weekend Friday to Monday if we wanted because, because we could and I could even work wherever, because a lot of my work's online, like I could get an Airbnb and we could go away and I can work.

John Hawker: 1:10:33

I've done that for a couple of weeks in Cornwall as well.

Jen Lister: 1:10:36

Is it good?

John Hawker: 1:10:37

I'm Bodie was 10 weeks old, so it was. There was a mixed experience but, having the freedom to do it is part of the reason I set up the business as well.

Jen Lister: 1:10:46

Yeah, so I, I don't know where I'm going to end up, like I really don't.

John Hawker: 1:10:51

And.

Jen Lister: 1:10:51

I feel like normally I'm very much goals and planning and strategy and to some extent at the moment I just feel like I really enjoying, absorbing every minute of my daughter's life, because I, I love being a mom so much. I hate just to be clear, I hated the first three months. I found it so hard. I'm not trying to say that I'm like this perfect mother that gets it all right, cause I am absolutely not, and I have horrific days. But since, since things clicked at about six months from there on, I have genuinely loved every minute of it and it gets better every day, I think.

John Hawker: 1:11:26

Yeah, apart from the crazy moments that are just horrendous, we all go through that as well. Yeah, it's. It's both challenging and rewarding, isn't it? Again it's the cliche of this sort of roller coaster. Yeah, no, it's really. That's really lovely. Your partner Ben, or your husband Ben, sorry.

Jen Lister: 1:11:41

Found it hard using the word husband for a while, but I'm kind of okay with it. Okay.

John Hawker: 1:11:44

You're okay with it. Okay, so well. You took his surname before, before you'd even discussed engagement. But, and so your husband, ben, is it fair to say? I don't know much about Ben's background, but he was in corporate. As he now transitioned out of corporate, yeah, sort of.

Jen Lister: 1:11:58

So he funnily enough he was an estate agent. And I say funnily enough because I know sometimes you say that recruiters get the bad rep, like the state agents do.

John Hawker: 1:12:05

Yes, a group, a group passing with the same kind of stigma that's associated with it.

Jen Lister: 1:12:09

Yeah, he did that a little bit. I mean he even worked at McDonald's. He was, he was, he was a bit of a.

John Hawker: 1:12:15

Yeah, Shed him on what, what a varied, what a varied career. I know a very early career.

Jen Lister: 1:12:19

Anyway, he then got into mortgage advising. So he did 25 years of mortgage advising and he built up such a strong repeat business. He built up such loyal clients. He'd help people within the same families and honestly, he'd get calls all the time and I'd be so jealous of him when I started my business Because I'm like you don't know how easy you've got it. Obviously he's put the work in, but I've learned a lot from from him. But he took a career change at the start of this year and he's now a photographer. So he was self-employed but he worked with a company. So it was kind of like a hybrid.

John Hawker: 1:12:53

Like a freelancing associate of a company. So it was work coming through and he was doing the work Okay.

Jen Lister: 1:13:00

Exactly so. He had a very nice setup with that very stable setup and, yeah, now he's a photographer, sports photographer and property photographer.

John Hawker: 1:13:10

Amazing Is that and that's full time, so he's moved out of mortgage advising. He's still doing that.

Jen Lister: 1:13:14

Works when he works, so we both work part-time now it's really weird.

John Hawker: 1:13:19

We're still trying to get the setup of how we're working, but that is brilliant and I think just outside looking in for a hell of a lot of people if they could see a way to create this lifestyle that works for both people to allow them the time to invest in their children and still feel like they've got a label other than mum or dad. I think that's, again, it's super inspiring, so that that makes me just like, yeah, that's, that's a goal, isn't it?

Jen Lister: 1:13:45

Not for everyone, but no, no it's not right for everybody, and what I will say is his relationship with Mabel has flourished since the start of this year and he already had a good relationship with her. But he takes her on bike rides, he takes her swimming, she goes daddy, daddy, daddy, when she's with me and I'm like, I'm mummy which is amazing, right? Yeah, and she wants that sometimes I want daddy, I want daddy, and I'm really grateful for that. So we.

Jen Lister: 1:14:10

I know this is kind of going off on a tangent, but I feel like, since having my daughter, they do want the mum a lot at the start, especially if you're feeding, but it's been a slow process of like dropping in boundaries throughout the last three years. It's like okay, we now need to split bedtime 50, 50. We now need to split bath time 50, 50. Whereas I was doing, for some reason, a lot of it at the start, now we do pretty much everything 50, 50, which is nice.

John Hawker: 1:14:34

Yeah, that division of labor, I think, is important, isn't it? Relationship as well.

Jen Lister: 1:14:38

Yeah, it's not right for everybody, but yeah we've figured out our boundaries and the but we you constantly have to re-contract and I've got a therapist and she taught me she's like sounds like you need to re-contract again, like things have changed. You need to re-contract what? What are you guys doing around the house Like cleaning?

John Hawker: 1:14:54

Describing it yeah. Yeah, because without those, conversations happening, it's very easy for it to go into turmoil as well, or or that feeling of resentment that maybe you're not doing enough, you're not pulling your weight or whatever as well. Yeah, it's not a relationship podcast, but they're good points, I think it resonates with people, but it relates.

Jen Lister: 1:15:11

I really love relationships and exploring that and I spoke to Ben just before I got in here and he was cleaning the bathrooms. I was like I love you. I can't wait to get home and clean the bathroom. Let's flip these gender stereotypes on their heads.

John Hawker: 1:15:21

Yeah, I absolutely love that. Oh God, Okay. So closing tradition Okay.

Jen Lister: 1:15:25

Do it.

John Hawker: 1:15:26

I'm also conscious that this room is getting hotter, and hotter. So closing tradition is podcast. Is that I? There's a question for you, but it's not posed by me, it's posed by my mum.

Jen Lister: 1:15:37

Oh, I love this. Um, so I have to meet your mum one day. She's asking Well, you?

John Hawker: 1:15:41

could listen to a podcast and you can decide if you really want to, because she's she's mad. I love her, um, but yeah. So mum has recorded a question. I don't listen to these questions in advance, so she can ask anything. She knows who I'm speaking to and roughly about what it is. You do Don't think she remembered you from school I mentioned seems harsh, but maybe you mentioned you. So anyway, I'm going to try and get the volume on this right. To start off with, I play it into the mic as well.

Jen Lister: 1:16:08

Hi, jenny, just getting back from my dog walk. What's the most annoying thing about working with John? Thank you.

John Hawker: 1:16:18

Right, that was where I thought that was going to go. So just to reiterate, I'm Jenny, I'm one of Jen's clients, so thanks for that.

Jen Lister: 1:16:26

I thought she was going to ask me like what I remembered about you from school, or something like that.

John Hawker: 1:16:30

I didn't know it was going to be about me.

Jen Lister: 1:16:31

None of the others have been about me but obviously she knows I'm a client, annoying thing.

John Hawker: 1:16:37

I'm on the spot.

Jen Lister: 1:16:37

Now, actually, what I'll say? I've got an answer already. I'd say the fact that you think that you rabbet on a lot, but you actually don't, and you always say sorry.

John Hawker: 1:16:46

I'm really sorry if.

Jen Lister: 1:16:47

I've just rambled the whole time, or like you'll message me after me Like did I just ramble that whole session and I'm like you really didn't. But that's quite a good answer.

John Hawker: 1:16:57

My interpretation a lot, though and I definitely find myself having to do this on these podcast recordings is to just take, just stop and try and be brevity, try and think of condensing what you're saying in a shorter way. I did a presentation yesterday and I had an outer body experience. It was 40 minutes long, which it was supposed to be, but I sort of came back back down to earth when I was closing the slides and I was like did I just wrap it on for that amount of time? And I felt like I wanted to apologize again. But yeah, well, that's kind of a positive thing.

John Hawker: 1:17:28

The fact that I'm apologizing and saying it's not that bad.

Jen Lister: 1:17:32

It's not bad at all.

John Hawker: 1:17:32

Thank you for saying that. That's very good.

Jen Lister: 1:17:34

Because you're not. It's not like you're boring or you're saying things that aren't relevant or the yeah.

John Hawker: 1:17:38

I think it's just like a stream of consciousness in my head that comes out and I feel like I love that.

Jen Lister: 1:17:43

I love that. I love going with the flow. I think that's the best way. Cool, so yeah, okay.

John Hawker: 1:17:47

All right, Jen, it's been an absolute pleasure. Thank you so much for sitting through this sweat box of an office slash studio. I think so many people are going to get so much value out of the stories you've shared and what you talked about.

Jen Lister: 1:17:58

Oh good, I really hope so. Thank you for having me.

John Hawker: 1:18:01

You're welcome. Thanks for listening to Jobs Worth. If you enjoyed this episode, please feel free to like and subscribe. You can stay connected by following me on LinkedIn for more insights on the world of work behind the scenes, content and updates on upcoming episodes. We're already thinking about guests for season two, so if there is a particular topic you'd like us to discuss, then please send in your suggestions to hello at jobsworthcom.