The Fundamentals of Feedback

In this weeks episode I'm joined by the incredibly talented Dr. Hayley Lewis, an award-winning psychologist with a quarter of a century of experience specialising in organisational psychology. Get ready to soak up all her wisdom as we delve deep into the often intricate world of feedback. She takes us on a journey, sharing her transition from dreaming of a career in law enforcement to becoming an esteemed psychologist.

Dr. Lewis holds nothing back as she tackles tough conversations and the transformative power of feedback. Listen closely as she recounts her experiences with a tribunal involving a former employee and the impact this had on her line management style. She gives us a crash course in 'Radical Candour' and the potency of silence in a conversation - a tool often overlooked. 

Hayley highlights the necessity of establishing ground rules for virtual conversations and the role of empathy in these interactions. Whether you're looking for a new perspective on feedback or seeking to better navigate the virtual landscape, this episode is saturated with insights and advice from one of the finest minds in psychology. Join us for an episode that is as enlightening as it is engaging.

• The Halo Psychology website can be found here https://halopsychology.com/
• The support/challenge framework - you can download a free user guide via this link https://halopsychology.us15.list-manage.com/subscribe?u=ae693812321bc2023bf11522b&id=3066aca6bd
• How to give difficult feedback - you can download a free step-by-step guide which outlines best practice of things to do before, during and after feedback https://halopsychology.us15.list-manage.com/subscribe?u=ae693812321bc2023bf11522b&id=2c1bd12e7d

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Chapters

• 0:01 An Intro to Award Winning Psychologist Dr Hayley Lewis
• 10:10 Work and Leadership Inspiration and Figures
• 21:51 Honest Feedback in Management
• 32:04 Radical Candor and Honest Conversations
• 37:11 Silence and the Power of Listening
• 47:29 The Uncomfortable Nature of Feedback
• 57:00 The Importance of Constructive Feedback
• 1:10:32 Navigating Virtual Work and Leadership Challenges
• 1:15:27 Mum's Closing Question

Transcript

John Hawker: 0:01

Jobs Worth, season one, episode eight the fundamentals of feedback. Welcome to episode eight of Jobs Worth. This week, I'm speaking with award-winning psychologist Dr Haley Lewis. Haley has over 25 years of experience in organizational psychology, with a particular focus on management and leadership behavior, and in this episode, as you may have already guessed from the title, we do a deep dive on the psychology of feedback. I first came across Haley when I spotted her incredible sketch notes on LinkedIn and was honored when she said yes to being a guest on the show.

John Hawker: 0:45

With feedback, or a distinct lack of it, being a primary gripe for many people at work, or indeed during their job search, we talk about the fundamentals of giving and receiving it and whether we can improve our ability to do either of those things. Haley is a true expert on this topic, offering valuable insights on the psychology of feedback, actionable tips on how to improve your relationship with it and anecdotes from her own experience that provide fantastic examples to back up her points. Whether you seek feedback or avoid it, react badly to it or don't, there are some big takeaways from this episode. So, without further ado, let me introduce you to someone who's already radically changed my view on giving and receiving feedback. Dr Haley Lewis Haley, thank you so much for coming on. Really appreciate you taking the time to have the conversation.

Dr Hayley Lewis: 1:32

And thank you for having me on your podcast. I'm really excited to see where our conversation goes.

John Hawker: 1:37

Yeah, lovely stuff. You're very welcome. So the first place it's going to go to is an opening tradition on the podcast that started now and it's a question that I'm going to pose to you. So the question is when you were younger, what did you want to be when you grew up?

Dr Hayley Lewis: 1:51

Oh gosh. So there were three things that competed with each other, two of them in the same kind of area. So one was the ballerina, of course, so I did ballet as a little girl. And then the two that really stuck all the way through to when I did my GCSEs and A-levels was I wanted to be a police woman, a police officer or a barrister, right.

John Hawker: 2:17

Okay, I don't want to say this is a generalisation, but maybe a lot of little girl's dreams is ballerina. So I'm saying that's kind of half the cost for a lot of people, absolutely. And then we go into police officer and then barrister. These are both upticks. What sort of age were you when the police officer and barrister came into play?

Dr Hayley Lewis: 2:36

So police officer from about the age of seven right through until my late teens. I mean, I was born in 74 and I remember watching Juliet Bravo. So about this female police officer? Up north.

Dr Hayley Lewis: 2:54

Yeah, and I loved it. I loved her uniform, I loved the whole thing. I mean, that was about 1983, something like that. And then I've always had a very and people, my close friends colleagues have said this about me I had a very keen sense of justice and helping others, you know, getting into fights, in the playground defending people who were being bullied, and I think that I think wanting to then become a barrister really spoke to that. The reason I didn't pursue law is that I went to a. I passed my 11 plus. I went to a grammar school and when we were doing our Uccas forms my head teacher said I wasn't clever enough to do law and it was all about making sure you got into university because obviously their stats look good.

Dr Hayley Lewis: 3:51

And so, yeah, I remember being called into the headmaster's office and he said I see that you're applying to law at these universities. You're not quite going to cut it, so you might want to think about doing history or something like that. Yeah, yeah, and that was quite a common conversation for them to have. Amazing, because it was about kids getting into university, not necessarily about the subjects that they wanted to do. So, yeah, but laws loss.

John Hawker: 4:16

Well, there you go. Exactly. It does lend itself to the subject that we're going to be discussing today, which is feedback, because receiving that feedback going through the application process at that age as well, I can imagine can be received in a number of ways, and I think in part of the preamble conversation we had to this, hayley, you were talking about the fact that when you were younger, you weren't great at receiving feedback, so we'll delve into that in a bit more detail as well. Going back to your early, I guess, career so from ballerina to aspiring police officer, to barrister, to then be told that route isn't for you what, then, inspired you to move into psychology, and specifically organizational psychology, which is a large element of what you do as well? What inspired you?

Dr Hayley Lewis: 4:56

So I wasn't inspired. Okay, I was offered the opportunity. So I ended up doing a degree in social sciences at undergrad. My major was history, because I've always loved history, and I did sociology and psychology alongside that. I graduated in the mid 90s and 95, went out into the world, got any job. I could, like many of us, do a series of dead-end jobs to pay the rent and I ended up getting an admin job at the BBC kind of the mid 90s.

Dr Hayley Lewis: 5:28

So I was a coordinator for the BBC's conference centre, which it used to have at that point in Marlborough and High Street, and I was asked, with a number of other coordinators, to go and help with a leadership team building event which is going to be held up in the Lake District. This is back when the BBC had more money than gold, and so I went up there. No expected another blooming clue was there for three days, had an absolute blast, but I was really struck by the things that the leaders were being tasked with doing and so on and so forth. Anyway, as it so happens, on the last night before we all travelled back, I was seated next to the overall boss of the area and so he was the controller of this particular area and he said to me well, he asked, he said what do you think of how it's gone, hailey? I mean I was pretty precocious. I was kind of 20, 24, nearly 25.

Dr Hayley Lewis: 6:22

At that point I'd had a couple of glasses of red wine and so I told him exactly what I thought. I thought it was a waste of money. I couldn't see the outcomes they were trying to achieve. I could still see him fighting between some of the leaders and it was kind of this silence on the table. And anyway, on the train back home I thought, oh God, what have I done? And I thought that's it, I'm fired. I did get called into my boss's office on the Monday and I thought that was it. And actually what she ended up saying to me was the boss has said he was really impressed with you and he thinks you've got what it takes to be.

Dr Hayley Lewis: 7:01

You're just like a natural kind of social scientist, psychologist did you know we have an in-house psychology team and we'd like almost to do a bit of an apprenticeship and would you be interested in moving over there? Well, fund you on your masters. I mean, it wouldn't happen now and I feel so lucky and privileged. I mean, as I said, it's back in the 90s and I remember I remember just coming in, strut down, and I remember going back to my desk, going on to ask G, which was the search engine.

John Hawker: 7:27

I can't remember it well.

Dr Hayley Lewis: 7:30

Typing up, looking up what is occupational psychology, because we touched on applied psychology undergrads but hadn't specifically gone into the various domains and I thought, yeah, I'll give it a go. So I applied to different universities and got a place on the master's programme at City University, london and the rest is, as they say, history. So I've been in the field 25 years. So it wasn't inspired to do it, it wasn't an intentional thing, it wasn't like I was five years old and I always yearned to be a psychologist. But as it happened and this fate has smiled upon me, I've ended up being in a profession that I absolutely adore. So sorry, that was a quite a long story. People never expect that story, but I think it's important context. It's not something I dreamed of doing, but now I feel really lucky that I do this.

John Hawker: 8:18

It gives some really good context around how you get into it, and I think it's an important lesson for people to realise as well is that you don't have to have a very clear idea of what you want to be when you're younger, and I am envious of people that are, my brother being an example of someone that had a very clear idea from the age of 10, 11 years old that he wanted to move into the field that he worked in. But yours is a story that I think so many people can relate to, which is you're given an opportunity and you take it with both hands and you go with it, so it's very relatable. It's not the answer that I thought you were going to give, but it's very relatable.

Dr Hayley Lewis: 8:52

It's never the answer and I say to. So I do a lot of careers talks with those training to be occupational psychologists on their masters programs and I, you know, one of the pieces of advice I always give is, if you're asked to give your opinion, give it, but make sure you give it in a productive way and seize opportunities where they can. Because as the professions got bigger and bigger I mean in the UK alone we have around 700 people graduating each year from masters programs in the field as the fields becoming saturated, and so if there's an opportunity that presents itself to you, no matter how scary it is, give it a go. You never know where it might take you.

John Hawker: 9:33

Yeah, that's a big lesson that I try and speak to people about as well, and it can seem a little bit glib sometimes giving that advice, but it's true like saying yes is one of the most powerful things you can do.

Dr Hayley Lewis: 9:42

Although now I say no, a lot more.

John Hawker: 9:44

Well, that's because, that's because you've earned your stripes.

Dr Hayley Lewis: 9:47

Yeah, yeah, yeah, I'm a lot more judicious about what I do and don't say.

John Hawker: 9:52

And I think those boundaries that you've put in place, one of them being, I guess, which is coming on the back of one of the boundaries that you put in place this year, which was taking August off as well, that's right, which is an incredibly powerful thing to do, but maybe that's boundary setting is something for another episode.

John Hawker: 10:06

Ok, so you weren't inspired to move into the profession that you're in now, but do you have inspiration in the field you're working in now? Because I have had, since I've been the latter part of my time working recruitment, maybe the last five or six years I've had a real interest in organizational psychology. I'm going to name job, not that he's going to listen to the podcast, but I'll name drop Adam Grant in the hope that he may listen Monday. Who knows, adam Grant is someone I've read a couple of his books and he really, I guess, just acted as the pathway, the entrance, for me to start having a bit more of a conceptual understanding, at least, of organizational psychology. Any inspiration in the field for you that you look to and kind of look up to?

Dr Hayley Lewis: 10:45

Yeah, I mean Adam is definitely up there. I mean I have to say that because he used one of my sketch notes.

John Hawker: 10:50

Did he? Oh, my God, ok, oh yeah.

Dr Hayley Lewis: 10:54

Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's the story for another day.

Dr Hayley Lewis: 10:57

But yeah, I think the thing I love about Adam is he's made the work that we do as scientists so he's obviously on the science side. I'm a scientist practitioner, in that I have a foot in both camps around research and practice. He's made it really accessible to the public. I think there are others who I've been inspired by, some of whom are no longer with us. For example, edgar Shine. He is someone that I cite quite a lot with students. I cite it, I cite him a lot in my work.

Dr Hayley Lewis: 11:31

I often post about Edgar's work because it's I mean, years on after his death, his work still has a really profound impact on the world of work and organizational culture and what it is to be a good leader. Gosh, who else? Others who inspire me, so doctors Rachel Lewis and Joanna Yarker. They are doing brilliant work in the area of health and well-being in the workplace. They also set up the first doctorate programme in occupational psychology in the UK, which which myself and Dr Claire Mulligan Foster have now taken over. So yeah, they they're hugely inspirational in the work that they do. Dr Nancy Doyle, doing amazing work around neurodiversity in the workplace and who helped co-establish the UK's first ever neurodiversity centre for work.

John Hawker: 12:28

Wow.

Dr Hayley Lewis: 12:30

But back. So yeah gosh, there's so many people and I get inspired by clients and students alike. You know I feel I feel so lucky to do what I do. I've kind of got the best of both worlds and I get to meet people from all walks of life. So my practice as a coach and a consultant I meet amazing people. You know my passion is the public sector.

Dr Hayley Lewis: 12:53

I spent 11 years working in the public sector for a while and just hugely inspirational people you know, from nurses to care assistants to social workers to planners to back room. You know staff like HR doing amazing things to help the public but with often very little money or very little thanks. And then my students at Birkbeck on the doctorate programme. I'm just inspired by their passion, the amazing work they do. We ran the weekend school the latest weekend school, clare and I, for the doctorate last weekend, and one of the things we get the students to do is share their most recent projects and they're learning from that and I was just I felt quite tearful hearing from four of our second year students. Just the work they're doing is having such a big impact on organisations in the UK and around the world. See how it gets inspired, every day, john, I love that.

John Hawker: 13:50

There's so much enthusiasm in that response as well, and I love it. It's so amazing and it's easy to name drop the bigger, more well-known names working in this space. But I think the point you make about your students and the people you meet on a daily basis inspiring you as well, that probably lends itself to the success you've had in this space, because you need to be inspired by the people you work with, the people you speak to and the people you're putting these messages out to as well. So that's amazing. I'm definitely going to go back to speak about the Adam Grant link, because I never knew that and that is just as a fanboy of Adam Grant. That's a huge connection, so amazing.

Dr Hayley Lewis: 14:26

I think I'm on page 163 of Think Again. If anybody has read it, Just saying Golly at home.

John Hawker: 14:31

That's the thing, something like that.

Dr Hayley Lewis: 14:34

You think I should know the page number.

John Hawker: 14:36

I mean, I'm surprised that you were able to reference one of them, but I guess you would. You would know, wouldn't you? Okay, so we talked about inspiration. Could you share maybe a moment in your career or someone in your career, one of the people you've worked with, that shaped the approach that you have today and I guess it lends itself organization or psychology for the conversation and the catalyst that happened at the BBC. But is there a moment or a particular individual that inspired your approach that you use today?

Dr Hayley Lewis: 15:02

The first person who had a profound impact on me, particularly around important conversations and feedback, and doing that in a powerful way, is the late Dr Mi-Anne Chung judge. So she took me under her wing in the early part of my career. She came in to do some work with the BBC on the culture change programme when Greg Dyke was director general, and I just feel really lucky to have had her light shine on me even kind of for that short period of time. But she wrote a brilliant article and it's one that I share with students and OD. So organizational development practitioners is called the self as an instrument, and I don't think that's just. I don't think that's an article that's just relevant for those of us who are practitioners in this space. I think it's relevant for anybody in a leadership position as well, about the impact you in your body can have on the environment around you. And so and just watching her in action as well, she could hold a room like no one else I've ever met and I think one of the reasons was she just oozed respect for people, even in really difficult conversations. So that's the first person who had an impact on me. The second moment that had an impact on me.

Dr Hayley Lewis: 16:24

I went on a brilliant programme it no longer runs now, I don't think, but it was back in 2003 with a company called Shepherd Moscow and it was their advanced development for facilitators and they only ever allowed a maximum of six people, because it's a deep, deep programme and it can lead to tears and all sorts. So you get feedback on your facilitation style, which includes how you have difficult conversations with groups or one on one, and then you'll really put through your paces. I mean there were two chief execs in my group I remember a couple of them in bits and so I was taught some frameworks on that as well as confronted with my own unhelpful behaviours around facilitation and giving feedback to make an important conversation. So that was a second important moment.

John Hawker: 17:16

Can I ask a quick question, haley, if that's OK? Just on that when the execs in that group were showing that level of emotion, that level of vulnerability, is that something that is welcomed and kind of nurtured, or are you taught ways in which, as leaders, you're supposed to kind of suppress that? Is there a balance, is there a mid-ground, or should we be vulnerable?

Dr Hayley Lewis: 17:39

So I think it depends. I don't think it's an either or job. I'm a big believer in context. If any of my students end up listening to this, they'll roll their eyes, because there's not a day goes by when I don't use it, or in some of my clients will as well. I don't use the word context. It depends. So in some instances, yeah, it probably would be great for a leader in a certain situation to just show a bit of vulnerability, but there are others where actually people want to feel in safe hands.

Dr Hayley Lewis: 18:08

Right yep, they want to feel that strength from you, and so there's something about reading the situation well and knowing how much to give and how much to expose of yourself and when you might want to kind of roll it back a little bit. But great question, and it's a common question that I get asked in recent years. It came up on Saturday actually with the students about vulnerability in leadership.

John Hawker: 18:39

As leaders. You've got a responsibility, haven't you? And I can cite a couple of experiences of I've been I say, fortunate enough, I have worked for myself a large part of my career, but when I've had leaders, there have been times where I admired the fact that they could keep their shit together or not. I guess expose that vulnerability and times when it did happen and it kind of shakes your reality a little bit as well, and that can not always be the most positive thing if someone is exposing themselves to that degree. So I get it, it is all about context, but I thought I'd interject and ask yeah, it depends what you are, no great question.

Dr Hayley Lewis: 19:15

It depends what you're exposing and in what context. There's also something about you have to take into account different societal factors. So my passion, my research area, is women and women in the world of work. There was a great book I read this year by Geraldine Gallagher about coaching women. So I think the subtitle is changing the system, not the person, and so leaders need to remember their role models.

Dr Hayley Lewis: 19:41

And so, if I think about women in leadership and this is born out in quite a lot of research as well as a young woman, if I'm moving, you know, if I have career aspirations, but I hit that certain point and I'm at that crossroads where I'm looking at those around me and all I'm seeing is women, kind of that giant shoulder pads hard, can't show your emotion, because that's been the only way to get ahead.

Dr Hayley Lewis: 20:07

Well then, I think that's the only way I can be a leader. And so there's something incumbent on leaders about what are you role modeling to those coming up behind you? So, whether I'm a woman leader, whether I'm a black leader, whether I'm, you know, male or female, or you know I'm gay, what what are my role modeling? Because I have a responsibility, not just to myself and my immediate team, but I also have a responsibility in terms of who, like me, is looking at me and coming up behind me years down the line, and so that's where that vulnerability aspect can come in helpful, and it's a question that I often explore with leadership, coaching clients particularly maybe, who've lost their way, they've lost connection, or maybe they're at the start of their career. It's what legacy do you want to?

John Hawker: 21:05

have. Yeah, I think legacy comes up a lot.

Dr Hayley Lewis: 21:07

What do you want people to be saying about you? What do you want people to be saying about you after you've gone, and to what extent is that likely to be said about you now, based on how you are now? Yeah. And often there can be a bit of a gap. But anyway, I digress.

John Hawker: 21:24

Let's get, let's go, you're going to have to work.

Dr Hayley Lewis: 21:25

You're going to have to work hard to pull me back, because I can go off all over the place, john.

John Hawker: 21:29

This is what I love about having conversations like this, though, and there's no harm with a bit of digression and going off and some tangents. It all very, very loosely some of this, but it all relates to the topic of feedback anyway, and I think it's important to discuss. So, yeah, go off on any tangent you want to go off. It's all valuable stuff and any more moments that you feel it's important to just identify as things.

Dr Hayley Lewis: 21:51

The third one was, I think, pivotal to how I thought about and handled feedback as a line manager. So very early on in my line management journey. So this is when I'd moved into local government. At this point I was re, I had to restructure one of the teams in my service area and some people got my redundant. Long story short, there was a member of the team who got my redundant that there was very questionable behavior, shall we say, and I confronted that and anyway they took agreements out and so on and so forth. But I had lots of evidence and HR kind of found in in my favor.

Dr Hayley Lewis: 22:30

But this person then took the local authority to tribunal and actually it wasn't just about me. Unbeknownst to me, this person had been in the local authority a long time, like 20 years, and so what ended up coming through the tribunal was like a long litany of their anger and disgruntlement at every manager they'd ever worked with. And I remember being, you know, as a as a rule following. You know I'm very rule following as a working class girl working hard. It was always about being perfect and kind of not doing anything wrong, and so I felt like I was in trouble, you know, to be able to find out that there was a tribunal, and I remember my boss at the time, the HR director, who is still a mentor for me now, very wisely said you don't earn your stripes as a manager with the day to day, the easy stuff. It's moments like this that you earn your stripes.

John Hawker: 23:28

That's a great point.

Dr Hayley Lewis: 23:29

That's always stuck with me. You know that's nearly 20 years ago now. It's something that I share with managers that I work with. When I managed managers so when I was in a senior leadership role in local government one of the things that I used to get them to do to take the fear out, because I think there's a lot of fear of the unknown and that's what can hold us back from having really important, honest conversations as line managers.

Dr Hayley Lewis: 23:55

And so if I'm frightened of saying the wrong thing, if I'm frightened, then I'm going to get in trouble. If I'm frightened there's going to be a grievance or disciplinary or God forbid, a tribunal kind of reverse engineer from that. And so it's easier for me, it's better for me to say nothing and actually I turn that on its head. And so every year with my management team that reported into me, I tell them that they could do this whenever they want. They just needed to kind of plan their time. But near us was one of the tribunal courts for London. It was up the road and most cases are public.

Dr Hayley Lewis: 24:28

So I'd say to them at one point this year go and sit in one of the hearings and I want you to come back and bring your findings and we'll talk about it in our management team meeting in terms of where you think that thing went wrong. And so we'd have a bit of a case discussion. And so I treated it as management development, if you like, but also as a way to take the fear out of the unknown. And more often than not, what came out in our discussions, what came out of their learning when they observed these court cases in action, is where a conversation hadn't happened at the right point, or a conversation had been mishandled in some way, or the communication was just poor in general, either from the line manager or the member of staff or both. And so, yeah, so that my own experience of that and, coming out the other side, I think it really gave me a strength and courage and also reinforced the importance of honest conversations and not avoiding them.

John Hawker: 25:25

I think if we zoom out for most problems that might arise in any part of our lives later down the line as well, if you look in hindsight or retrospectively, it's always down to something that's been missing, so it's a lack of something at some point in our development, whether that's through a career or for just over the course of this conversation. If it went a certain way, we could probably pinpoint. If we started arguing, hailey, it's probably going to be able to be pinpointed on something that wasn't said or miscommunicated, and I think that's a really good point to make and probably it was a great lesson in resilience for you as well.

John Hawker: 25:57

Yeah, absolutely, absolutely you grow from those moments, don't you for sure?

Dr Hayley Lewis: 26:02

I mean it was brutal at the time and there were days where I was crying and I remember I mean as well as the HR director, who is my boss, who was amazing, she was an absolute rock, but she didn't ban Hailey with it, and she kept saying to me remember, it's not you who's, you are representing the author, because this person's complaining against the authority, but the barrister as well. We had a barrister and he I was like, oh, he's a barrister, but he blew my mind. But I remember him coming in with his assistant with a almost like a pulley trolley of all the files and that also reinforced. Oh, it's not just about me. Oh, okay, so this person's made many complaints over the years. But, yeah, absolutely, I came out the other side, I think, a stronger, more confident line manager.

Dr Hayley Lewis: 26:58

But also reinforced further and this is when my training as a psychologist comes in, because I do this anyway is the importance of really good evidence. So not what you're assuming. Something is not not your own bias coming in. It's kind of what are the facts? And are you, are you talking about those facts? Because that's often where feedback conversations can go wrong, when it's not factual and evidence based. And again, that. That was my own learning journey with that really.

John Hawker: 27:27

And brilliant and that helps us. I mean, I'm sorry you had to go through at the time, but it helps us for this conversation and the listeners listening now, because it shaped a lot, I guess, of the advice and support and mentorship that you give people. Now what you say resonates about facts. I've had a fair amount of therapy in the last six or seven years and it's kind of when you, when you are asked to analyze what you're thinking about, half of it is the internal monologue, internal narrative in your head that is completely fictional. So taking a step back and separating that from what is the black and white of what you can see right now like let's let's take all the noise away and look at the bare bones and the skeleton of it is what you've got in your head, true or correct or accurate. Nine times out of 10, when you're having those moments and feeling a certain way, it's it's not true. So yeah, factual stuff is really important.

Dr Hayley Lewis: 28:16

Well, and this is where so my training as a researcher, as a, as a scientist, so that side of of my life, as a psychologist we don't use the language of true or false. We say the data suggests, yeah, or findings suggest, and I and I just think that can be more powerful and also lend itself to being heard yeah. Then if you're stating something as a truism, yeah, it's a really good point.

Dr Hayley Lewis: 28:44

You know as a line manager. Based on this evidence, this suggests to me that you you might be having a problem with your workload. Let's have a conversation about that. Yeah, that's a, that's a really good point which is a very different conversation than this data tells me that you're rubbish at your job, or this data tells me you can't do your job, which is more black and white.

John Hawker: 29:06

Yeah, completely Right.

Dr Hayley Lewis: 29:08

So and I know you're, I know you're laughing because you're like because I can imagine people going. Nobody says that do they do, because when I do conflict resolution work and I do my kind of research and I speak to all the parties concerned, conversations like that do happen.

John Hawker: 29:22

Yeah, I'll be honest. Over 12 years of recruitment and hearing people's grievances for why they want to leave jobs, I'm aware of it. The laugh was more because I actually reminds me of so many anecdotes that people have told me over the years as to why they're leaving or or why they're not sticking with a company and being being told in that direct way and it's easy as someone, I'd love to label myself as an empath and someone that maybe I think empathy is quite a valuable asset when you're giving feedback and and receiving feedback as well.

John Hawker: 29:53

But hearing that I'm like how could anyone be it? For me that is a sign of apathy, not having, not being in touch, maybe a lack of emotional intelligence as well. So I laugh because it actually reminds me of so many anecdotes that I've heard over the years. So I get that.

Dr Hayley Lewis: 30:08

But it's also what we put a premium on, you know, societally and obviously, if I think about the UK context, but also the US has a big impact on us in terms of workplace culture, but even the language. This has come up quite a lot recently with clients that I'm working with, where they leaders talk about the need to be brutally honest like it's something to be proud of, and I always because I'm fascinated by words and discourse and so I always pick up and I'm really curious about why does it need to be brutal?

Dr Hayley Lewis: 30:40

Why can't you just be honest, that's a good point.

John Hawker: 30:42

What's?

Dr Hayley Lewis: 30:42

the difference between being honest and being brutally honest and why do we need to be brutal? And I think it's what we're taught in this kind of society, particularly a kind of a capitalist society. It's almost kind of kill or be killed. It's that kind of macho. You got to be really strong. You got to be brutally honest. And you know, I, my husband and I were talking about this last night.

Dr Hayley Lewis: 31:05

I used to be a massive fan of the the apprentice when it first started, so the first couple of series, but I can't bear to watch it now because I think it's from my perspective, it's all that's. It's almost like a parody of all that's bad about business and what it takes to be a good business owner and a good leader and it's. You know, you got to. You got to talk to people like they're pieces of shit and no, there is another way. And you're absolutely spot on. There was some research a couple of years ago I know why you're laughing it was some research from 2018 that suggests that leaders who display empathy when giving difficult feedback are seen as more effective at giving feedback by the feedback recipient.

John Hawker: 31:48

Interesting Okay.

Dr Hayley Lewis: 31:49

So empathy has a really powerful impact and yet we're taught by these programs and so on and so forth that no, no, no, that's not the right way and actually the science suggests otherwise. So you're absolutely spot on.

John Hawker: 32:04

Two points. I want to make one on the apprentice. I think the reason it's getting so bad over the years and I used to watch it in the first cover is because there's so many recruitment consultants on it. Number one number two like I, can say that number two. Number two is going back to the point you made about brutal honesty. So there's a book. I think the book is called Radical Candour.

Dr Hayley Lewis: 32:25

Yes, by Kim Scott.

John Hawker: 32:26

There you go. So. So radical candour in a way, is that not, maybe it maybe the. It doesn't translate as brutal honesty, but radical candour. There is elements of that and businesses are using the term radical candour from a leadership perspective to be able to is that? Is that masking?

Dr Hayley Lewis: 32:42

Kim definitely didn't mean it as brutal honesty okay and she has a three step approach.

Dr Hayley Lewis: 32:48

So I give people lots of different options when I'm teaching them about giving and receiving feedback, and I share Kim's framework. And what's really interesting about Kim's framework is the giving feedback and that really honest conversation is the third stage. Right, actually, before you even get to that, you're giving praise. The next stage is you are asking for feedback as the leader, so you're role modelling. You're asking for feedback, you're showing that feedback isn't something to be scared of and you're role modelling how to receive it before you even get to that. And yeah, certainly. And if you, if you kind of ever listen to Kim, talk about the work that she's done and the work that influenced the book, yeah, that's. She doesn't mean the brutal honesty in the way that you and I have been talking about it. That's not what she meant by radical candour.

Dr Hayley Lewis: 33:38

Radical in the radical in the idea that it's still not the norm to have honest conversations. We veer away from them, we avoid them still. Yeah, and that candour is around. Don't beat around the bush, just just tell someone. And again, research bears this out. There was some German research from 2007 that says when we're having to give difficult feedback, people will go an indirect route. But actually all that does it serves to wind the person up because they know something's coming yeah yeah and we've all been there, haven't we?

Dr Hayley Lewis: 34:11

I've been there where I'm like in your head you like get to the point and it's almost like shaking a wasp in a jar, yeah, and so the candour bit is just just state, state what it is you want to say to the person.

Dr Hayley Lewis: 34:22

Doesn't mean you need to be a dick about it yeah, honest feedback, radical candour, whatever you want to call it doesn't mean you need to be horrible about it. You can be compassionate when you're doing it. Brené Brown, in her book Dare to Lead, talks about to be clear is to be kind. The unkindest act a leader can ever do is to not be clearing their feedback. Go all around the house is be really indirect yeah because you're leaving the person vulnerable.

John Hawker: 34:48

That all makes complete sense, and there's been like in my time as a manager, which didn't last long, primarily because I chose to leave. I didn't particularly enjoy leadership, but probably it's because the leaders that I had role modelling for me weren't giving me the the skills, I think, and the development I needed. I would have liked to think I was good at giving feedback, but half the time I was doing exactly that. Skirting around the difficult issue or probably being too direct and then framing as being brutally honest is going to help you, which wasn't the case that. Going back to radical candour, I will say this as well. I haven't read Kim's book. I've heard it referenced so many times by leaders and I think it can act as a plaster to go over. We're just going to be brutally honest.

John Hawker: 35:29

It can do yeah and the the difference with the framework. I think, as you were saying it there, the last part is to have a an honest conversation.

Dr Hayley Lewis: 35:37

I guess the success of that relies on you embracing and really wanting to adopt the first two sections, because I, yes, in my cynical mind, think leaders might go let's just tick those two boxes and then let's just be brutally honest at the end of it yeah, that's a really, really insightful point you've just made, because Kim also talks about this in the book where she says there are two golden rules you've got to care enough about the person to go there and have that conversation, and then two, you've got to commit to it. You can't kind of half step off. It always makes me think of that scene in Indiana Jones and the last cruiser. I love film references where he has to have that leap of faith yeah like step it.

Dr Hayley Lewis: 36:23

You think there's no bridge. That's what she's talking about. You've got to commit, there's no half-ass measures here, and so yeah. But I think the first golden rule of you've got to care about the person and sometimes I will ask that conversation. If in a coaching conversation, so with one of my coaching clients, if there's a, if there's an issue between, maybe, them and one of their direct reports and there's a conversation that they're avoiding, I asked them do you care enough about the other person to go there?

Dr Hayley Lewis: 36:52

it's a great question which is often met with stunned silence, and I allowed the silence as well. Somebody shared one of my really old sketch notes about six tips for having a difficult conversation. It's a very old sketch that they shared it on LinkedIn this week and there's been a conversation on the back of that in the in the comments thread about one of the six suggestions I make, which is about the power of silence. Many of us don't use silence enough in feedback conversations or indeed one-to-one conversations, but silence is powerful, not used in an easy and active element, but just allowing.

John Hawker: 37:27

Just allowing the person to process, yeah, just allowing it both of you in the room to just sit with what's been said it's okay, to do that yeah, they're lessons that I could take a lot from, I think, in my both my personal relationship, both in speaking to candidates as well, about jobs or leaders, about hiring slightly different one to take into a podcast, isn't it long? Silencing as well, but but I do completely understand what you're saying. I think silence is so incredibly powerful and there's um you watch enough kind of sales people speak about the power of silence as well and just letting those messages be digested. You've gone on to answer a lot of the questions that I had as well that are moving through this, which is why I love going off on tangents can I share a powerful moment that really drove home for me silence yes, I'm not going to say no, yeah because I always use it with clients and then we come up with tactics they can try out to build their silence muscle.

Dr Hayley Lewis: 38:31

So, um, the leadership team I was part of this was a long time ago now. There was a leadership team I was part of. There've been lots of friction. Um, one of the team members have been fired. It had had a center ripple effect across the leadership team. We just weren't performing. As a result, um, there was no trust, so on and so forth, and so the director of the team knew something needed to be done, and so we there were 10 of us in total she bought in an external facilitator from the Tavistock Institute.

Dr Hayley Lewis: 39:00

Okay, so this will be someone with deep therapeutic expertise, but using it in a group setting, so anyway. So we sat in the obligatory circle? Of course we did, and he opens up. He said tell me how it's feeling at the moment for you. Everyone looked at the floor because no one wanted to be the first one to speak. I kid you not, john, five minute silence. We sat there, wow, because I watched the clock and you could hear the clock ticking and but.

Dr Hayley Lewis: 39:30

But that wasn't the thing that I noticed. What I noticed more than I kept looking out the corner of my eye because here was I I mean, I was only 10 years into my well, less than 10 years into my career as a psychologist, about that. So I was like fascinated with this other practitioner. I kept looking out the corner of my eye and this guy was so comfortable in his own skin. He did not seem ruffled by the silence. He might have been inside, but he had this benign smile. He had his notepad. He'd smile at us if we caught his eye, and then he'd look out the window into the gardens, just so centered and calm, and goes back to me and's paper on self as an instrument. Five minutes later, what do you think happened?

John Hawker: 40:11

someone has to have broken at some point. I couldn't have lasted five minutes.

Dr Hayley Lewis: 40:15

Someone broke, someone broke it was me someone broke but then the conversation that took place over the next hour and a half was one of. It was so powerful. But the thing I took away more than the conversation was this this guy yeah and I thought I want to be like that.

Dr Hayley Lewis: 40:34

I want to be like that, I want to exude. Silence isn't something to be frightened of, or sitting there fidgeting, or just this is just a space that we're in, and so I've really worked on that ever since then, and it's something that I do a lot of work on with, with clients as well around how to build your silence muscle is that?

John Hawker: 40:57

is that aligned with meditation at all? Highly mindfulness? Is that got any links? In your mind around it, or is it? Is it a very different thing?

Dr Hayley Lewis: 41:06

potentially, potentially, but yeah, I think there are definitely some links. I mean, I I've been meditating regularly since 2012, so when I was in a leadership role and I essentially had a breakdown and part of my way back and and kind of building myself back up was incorporating meditation practice. But I think of some, for some of this personality as well, there will be some people. So one of my close friends who I, who I used to work with and has become a really good friend, really comfortable with silence. She's a very clear introvert. Um yeah, doesn't feel the need to fill the room with her voice. All the live long day, great so.

Dr Hayley Lewis: 41:44

I think, yeah, I think it's a variety of things yeah but it is a skill. Those of us who are a bit more chatty.

John Hawker: 41:50

It is a skill we can learn, because my clients are testament to that yeah, interesting and it's a skill that I've been mindful of, definitely embarking upon this podcast journey and speaking to people, because I do have a tendency to feel silences. I have a tendency to I don't think it's with the intention of just making noise all the time. I'm probably in my mind I don't know if it's the silence making me uncomfortable or feeling that the silence might make the other person uncomfortable, so I am starting to very slowly be more comfortable with it, but it is uncomfortable. I'm saying uncomfortable and comfortable a lot, but I hope, hopefully, that makes sense but there's also something about calling it out.

Dr Hayley Lewis: 42:26

It doesn't have to be this secret. So, for example, if I'm working with somebody who's a line manager and they want to, they recognize that actually, one of the things that's getting in the way their relationships with staff and and important conversations is their tendency to jump in if god forbid a person doesn't respond in a nanosecond is around becoming comfortable with that, also putting it out there. So saying to people you might notice I'm going to be a bit quieter and it's something that I'm trying out. Yeah, because I want to create more space, whereas if you don't say anything, it can just feel really awkward and weird for the other person or persons because suddenly you're behaving differently, but they don't know why. Yes, it doesn't have to be a secret. Actually, if you're working on something, if you're developing yourself as a leader, as a manager or just as a person, often it can be helpful to tell others about that so they can help you on your journey. I can't believe I use the word journey. I'm rolling my own eyes now don't worry that.

John Hawker: 43:31

It comes up a lot and in the first, in the first season of Jobs Worth, it came up a lot and it will come up a lot again. Don't worry at all. Okay, so I've shared a personal experience as well from my relationship, in that I'm notoriously a fixer in my relationship. So if my partner comes to me of a problem, all she really wants me to do and I've learned this from therapy as well is to listen and to be a sounding board and to hold her and to not fix it. But I think I'll probably get this from my mum. It's a character trait I've inherited. I reckon I just want to fix it.

John Hawker: 44:01

So there's no silence. There is right. Let's come with something actionable for me to try and do that's going to make you feel better and drag you out of where you are at the moment, and I've learned the hard way in some on some occasions that that's not what you need to do. So, whether it's silence or whether it's just, I hear what you're saying, I understand and I'm here, and that's a hard lesson for me to have learned.

Dr Hayley Lewis: 44:23

But yeah, just in case that resonates with anyone else, it just it, it came to mind that'll resonate with a lot of people, I think, and you saw me put my hands up because that's an example I often share. Yeah, when I'm running workshops with managers on whether it's kind of creating a psychologically safe culture and or having important conversations and giving feedback, there's a framework that I share. I've got a free download actually on my website, so if people are interested that I can send you the link thank you but around support challenge, because there's something around.

Dr Hayley Lewis: 44:56

Stop trying to guess what the rules of the game are. Ask each person. So this tool encourages those who are managers, for example although some people use it with their families as well but it encourages managers, with each direct report, to have that one-to-one conversation around how they want to be supported and actually what's the best way for the manager to challenge them in a way that means they won't get defensive. Yeah, but here's the thing it's a two-way conversation. So then the manager talks about how they can be challenged and also the kind of support that they want, and the example I always share is similar to yours.

Dr Hayley Lewis: 45:34

I give the example of when my husband was being bullied at work a long time ago. He would come home and he would because he's very quiet, but so if he was ranting, I knew this was, this was bad. With my old HR hat on and, as a problem solver similar to you, I go. Well, what you need to do is you know you need to go and see your HR rep, blah, blah, blah. And there was one night and he doesn't have a temper at all, but one night and he just said I just want you to listen, I don't want you to tell me what I need to do or who, and I just I'm just letting off steam and that was like wow, that's. That's a reminder that our love language isn't necessarily the love language the other person wants. If you want, if you like it's a great point.

John Hawker: 46:16

Love language is something that a mutual connection of ours introduced me to actually, jen Lister introduced me to love languages and I ended up doing that the questionnaire online as well and that was quite that's, quite an opener, but anyway, well, that's again another conversation, I reckon. But yeah, it's, um, it's. I've had experiences like that where Sophie, my partner, has just had to say I don't need you to do anything, I just, I just need you to listen and that's it. So I think again, that's, I just want to run yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Dr Hayley Lewis: 46:46

And again, that might be the the case at work. So, as a line manager, if you're a natural problem, so you want to solve it. Actually, what you need to understand is for that person there might be one of your direct reports who that doesn't work, for they want to bounce ideas off and the important thing is create the create the ground rules for each relationship, because they'll be different and it's your job to adapt as a manager, not the other way around yeah but to do that you need to understand the rules of the game okay, fantastic, point right.

John Hawker: 47:16

I've I've got some questions directly around feedback. They may draw out concise answers or they may lead us to more tangents, which we've got. We've got some time to go into this, so hopefully that's okay. Why does feedback make people so uncomfortable? What is it about feedback? It's a generalization to say that most people will feel uncomfortable with feedback, but I think it's a fair one. But what makes people so uncomfortable about receiving and giving feedback?

Dr Hayley Lewis: 47:43

so I think, in terms of giving feedback, I think there's a couple of things that influences our anxiety. I think the first is our own, our own experience of of being given it and being given it badly. I think the second thing is and this is this is, this is the more prevalent, I find is our imaginations run riot. So the question I always ask managers is what do you think is going to happen when you say this thing? And sometimes our minds will kind of career off into the stratosphere, into Fentyland, like, and I say do you think it's going to be like the Jerry Springer show? When you say this thing, do you think the person's going to pick the chair up and smash it across the room, or are they going to punch you? Or oh, no, no, no, no, right. So what do you think is going to happen?

Dr Hayley Lewis: 48:29

But our imaginations can run riot, particularly the longer we leave it. So I think those are the two things, both of which are to do with our minds. So prior experience, and then our imaginations running riot, which also and I think some of us allow imaginations to run right because it's lets us off the hook, doesn't it? Let's us off the hook doing the difficult thing.

John Hawker: 48:52

Yep, definitely Okay. So what about receiving?

Dr Hayley Lewis: 48:54

Well, in terms of receiving feedback, again there's an overlap with Gibbing. We might have had bad experience in the past with other managers or this manager, and so kind of we're on red alert already. There might also be other things. There's kind of wider context going on. If there's a restructure in your organization and your manager says, could we have a chat, I mean that's just the ultimate, isn't it? When your manager says, could we have a chat?

John Hawker: 49:24

Yes.

Dr Hayley Lewis: 49:24

That, combined with you know there's going to be layoffs, it's going to put you on high alert.

John Hawker: 49:29

Yeah, anxiety and.

Dr Hayley Lewis: 49:30

Absolutely, Absolutely. So there's again. There's a number of things that can kind of feed into it, but these that they're the ones that kind of tend to come up the most when I dig into it with people like in workplaces.

John Hawker: 49:44

So it's the history and the prior experience. And then also this is around receiving it, and then the context as well, which, again, your students will be rolling their eyes on hearing context, but I think it's an important point to make. So do you think it's a fair point to say that the majority of people albeit a generalization, the majority of people are uncomfortable to some degree about giving and receiving feedback?

Dr Hayley Lewis: 50:08

I think that's fair to say, yeah.

John Hawker: 50:10

Okay.

Dr Hayley Lewis: 50:10

I work with hundreds of managers each year across different sectors, different organizations around the world and in my own experience before we're kind of running my business it was the thing that people would avoid the most, so yeah, so I think broadly it's not something that people kind of get excited about.

John Hawker: 50:32

I can't imagine it. I can't imagine anyone does. But yeah, I thought it was important to qualify. Why not?

Dr Hayley Lewis: 50:37

Why not? Why not? It's an opportunity for a really important conversation, to have to help a person, to have a profound impact on them, to maybe make them aware of something that that maybe they weren't aware of but could make a really big difference to their working lives or even to maybe to their personal life. Yeah, it's really interesting that we don't see it as an opportunity.

John Hawker: 51:04

I'm going to answer your why not question with? I think it's the stigma, it's previous experience, it's probably the fact that no one works on delivering feedback, so it does come across as either brutally honest or shaking a wasp in a jar, which is why services like yours are around Hayley and why you show such an interest in it as well.

Dr Hayley Lewis: 51:23

So I definitely think there's a David Brent, yeah, or the David Brent approach, which is you say something, but you're saying nothing. Yes. And so the person goes away from the conversation not having a clue as to what was that that was about. I see that a lot.

John Hawker: 51:40

Yeah, there's a famous scene. Yeah, there's a famous scene with the performance appraisal in the British office isn't there as well, where he sat there across the desk and he's basically saying absolutely, bugger, all and exactly. Yeah, the imagery is there.

Dr Hayley Lewis: 51:55

Yeah, that's really common. Okay, you know and so many of us have been taught the. I've kind of taken it upon myself to bust this myth of the shit sandwich that many of us have been taught as a technique. You know, give a bit of praise, wedging the difficult feedback, and then finish with praise. We now know that does not work.

John Hawker: 52:15

Shit sandwich. I'm sorry, I'm still laughing at the. I know.

Dr Hayley Lewis: 52:20

It doesn't. It doesn't work and, as I talked about earlier, most people have a sense of okay, there's something clearly this person wants to say to me. And when you're wasting time going, oh, you've done a, really you know, you've given them some flannel. Actually, you're just putting it off. You're wind, you're wasting time, you're winding the person up. You're probably winding yourself up. Just cut to the chase. But you can still deliver that fact, but do it in a compassionate understanding way Okay, but yeah, it doesn't. It doesn't work, no.

John Hawker: 52:52

I mean, it's a great. I don't think I've ever heard it called a shit sandwich before, but I again I've been a recipient of a shit sandwich on a number of occasions in the, in the context of feedback, and yeah, I would agree it's, and it's so obvious as well as a tool to be using it so obvious.

John Hawker: 53:09

What again? What is coming? So good news? Oh wait a minute, this is going a different direction. And then a pat on the back or some false, false thing to leave you feeling, or false positive, basically a placebo, to leave you walking out the door feeling like that feedback is not. That wasn't that bad, it's just rubbish. And.

John Hawker: 53:29

Haley, I'm gonna. I'm gonna ask you this question now and I'm confident I know the answer already, because this is part of why we're having the conversation. Can you train yourself? I'm going to ask how? How do you train yourself to be better at giving and receiving feedback? And I appreciate answering this question in the time we have left. You could take up the rest of this time, but can you give some indication of how you can train yourself to be better?

Dr Hayley Lewis: 53:52

Yeah, well, first of all, you need some feedback on what it's like to get feedback from you. You know how, so you might have some behaviors that you hope you demonstrate. You might want to, you know, do your own little version of a 360 feet back, for example, but get some evidence. I mean one of the one of the Professor Bob Sutton talks about this in his brilliant book Good Boss, bad Boss about. You know, the best managers, the best leaders, regularly ask for feedback. They don't wait for a formal, the formal, formal kind of annual performance for appraisal or 360 feet. They kind of do it themselves. And this is something I encourage any of my clients to do, which is, you know, even if it's every quarter or a couple of times a year, just having some standard questions. You ask people and they can respond anonymously if they're more comfortable doing that, that. But yeah, get feedback on your feedback giving, because that then will tell you the things specifically that to work on, but also some strengths that you can leverage. I think, get some support. So, whether you've got somebody else at your level who's a really good friend or a close colleague that you can bounce ideas off or even role play stuff, if you know you've got a conversation you've got to have and it's you're feeling a little bit worried about it. Do a dry run with someone. People don't do that enough, but often when my clients do do that, they always come back to the next coaching session going. I wish I'd done that before Because again, it almost takes the fear out of it and you can get some feedback from your colleague as well.

Dr Hayley Lewis: 55:22

You can go on training courses. You can get a mentor, so there might be someone more senior than you who you think, wow, they're brilliant at honest conversations. They do it really elegantly. Why not ask them to take you under their wing mentor? Ask them for advice, get a coach. There's a number of things you can do, but I say, start with getting some evidence first. Actually, baseline where you are. The NHS has a. I don't know if they still use it, but it's a framework that I share with people on my feedback workshop. I'll share it with you after. You can kind of share it with people.

Dr Hayley Lewis: 56:03

It'll be great yeah, after, but it's a competency framework, it's a five level, so there's five levels for you to achieve around feedback giving. So it's one of the essential competencies, and so at one end it's, you know, basically rubbish like give him feedback all the way through to level five, where not only do you give feedback really well, you role model how to give it, you role model how to receive feedback, you proactively ask for feedback, and I really like that because there's a journey to go on. So I'll send that over to you, john, because you might find that helpful and your listeners might find that helpful as well. As I say, I don't know if the NHS still uses it, but certainly they did at one point and I think it's a fabulous framework to help us think about the journey that we can go on to build our feedback muscle.

John Hawker: 56:50

Yeah, if we can find that, and then we'll share that in the podcast description as well.

Dr Hayley Lewis: 56:54

I'll ping it over to you after Brilliant.

John Hawker: 56:56

Okay, I'm going to ask you a really specific question now, then, because one of the reasons that inspired this conversation and me reaching out to you, haley, was and this is going to be a point where I talk about recruitment and I try not to do this as much as possible in this podcast but my job as a recruiter and one of the main, the primary gripes of the recruitment industry and a stereotype that I'm trying to change is candidates would cite lack of feedback as the number one problem with the recruitment industry or dealing with recruiters.

John Hawker: 57:29

Now, I have tried to tackle that stigma by giving feedback, and I think I'm going to know the answer to part of this question at least. Anyway, the feedback that I give is often shared, it is often received in a negative way, and it kind of manifests itself in one of two ways it's potentially a bit of denial and then getting quite angry about having received that feedback and pushing it on to the person that's giving it, because obviously I'm just relaying the feedback or taking it very personally and becoming quite negative about it and letting that affect confidence as well. I am going to defend the recruitment industry to a degree that people are asking for feedback and when we're giving it again a generalisation, it's received in one of those negative ways. Why is that, and what can we be doing more of to improve that whole process and ensure that feedback is taken in the way that it's intended?

Dr Hayley Lewis: 58:26

Yeah, okay, I mean, yeah, a gritty issue, I think. First and foremost, I want to say you can't force people to take it in the spirit of which it's intended. That's their responsibility. So I always say this to people that I work with on this topic Every relationship, every conversation is a 50-50 responsibility and the only bit you can take responsibility for is your 50%.

Dr Hayley Lewis: 58:50

So, as a recruiter, I would imagine my 50% is have I been factual, have I given helpful information? Have I signposted someone on next steps and have I been respectful? You know so you might have some criteria. If you've met those, that's all you can do. The recipient's responsibility is to listen, is to ask questions, is to not lose their temper, and that's their responsibility.

Dr Hayley Lewis: 59:18

There's also something about I'm a great believer in using evidence in the moment. So when I worked at the BBC, I worked very closely with recruitment. So I was responsible for running big-scale assessment centres with recruitment colleagues and I remember we had this big campaign. It's very competitive. You had young journalists wanting to get onto the new sponsorship scheme Incredibly competitive and it was such an evidence base so they had to go through a day of different exercises. I mean, the reports on each person were incredibly detailed and there was one guy who didn't get a place. I gave him his feedback. It gave me a bit of a drip on the phone, but that was to be expected. Did it end there? No, because I was on the tube. Going home one night from broadcasting house, Got on the tube box with circus and at the corner of my eye I saw this blur stamping down the tube. I thought what's going on here? Looked over, it was the guy.

John Hawker: 1:00:22

No way.

Dr Hayley Lewis: 1:00:23

He came over and stood in front of me, towered over me and said I don't agree, I can't believe I didn't get a place. And I said to him. I said to him I can't believe I had the wear with autos. I said what you're doing here only serves to reinforce his evidence of why you shouldn't be on the program. And it just struck him dumb. But again, there's something about Are you using what's coming across in the moment as evidence to reinforce the feedback that you're giving? Yeah, for example, and and many of us don't Necessarily do that so whether you're a recruiter, whether you're a line manager, but that can be really powerful and can often be enough to almost be a bit of a shock to the person.

Dr Hayley Lewis: 1:01:07

Yeah because it's like you know, if somebody starts shouting at you on the phone, I would say you know you're shouting at me. I'm giving you feedback in a really calm way. I know it's not what you want to hear, because you wanted the job and I get that you're upset, but the fact that you're not able to control your temper and you're shouting at me Only reinforces the kind of data that we got or the decision that's been made.

John Hawker: 1:01:30

Yeah, I understand that because I think most people that want to do the job well Want to provide the right service to the people they're representing, and the ideal scenario is that you don't have to call people A negative feedback at all and everyone gets a job. Yeah, from both sides, but More often than not, one person's getting a job and there's there's a good number of people that won't, and all you want to do is try and help those people constructively, and I guess Some of it comes down to that discomfort about telling someone negative feedback or however they're gonna frame that. They could frame it as just that is the worst feedback I've had. They could frame it to say that's really useful and constructive, but I think, as as the middle people in that relationship, it's I don't want to make out recruitment as being a hard job, but that is one of the hardest parts and I think the industry better at it. So again, speaking to someone like yourself about how we can improve, that, I think is really important. Yeah.

Dr Hayley Lewis: 1:02:24

I think use, use what you're getting in the moment. But also I think there's something about how we use starting off the conversation. So there's something. You took use the word empathy earlier, so you know there's something about Acknowledging. I'm really sorry you didn't get. You know, I know you're gonna be upset. I hope you take the feedback in the spirit which is intended. I know you didn't get the outcome, but I hope with this feedback it will be helpful for you and, if possible, maybe I can sign post you to other places to look or what you could do next. But there's something about how are you starting off that conversation? If you go because you've got your own busy to-do list, if it's, if it's like you're straight in and there's none of those Niceties, there's none of that acknowledgement of the other person's pain, what do you expect you're gonna get back.

John Hawker: 1:03:10

Yeah, that's right. Yeah, really good point, and I think, in an industry that is so notoriously driven by commission and moving on to the next thing, which is gonna get you closer to making money there were some incredibly conscientious, empathetic Recruiters out there that genuinely are focused on providing this really strong candidate experience and, ultimately, human experience, and they need to be given the time to actually have those empathetic conversations rather than, okay, you spent 60 seconds on that call telling the candidate they didn't get the job, now move on to the next one. So that's again. That's a more industry-wide issue exactly what.

Dr Hayley Lewis: 1:03:48

and also it's not your job, it's not your recruit recruitment colleagues, jobs to solve Someone's anger.

Dr Hayley Lewis: 1:03:55

Hmm that person's emotions and feelings are legitimate. They're disappointed and there's something about we've got we again. You know, if you think about the UK culture, stiff upper lip and that we're talked from a very early age to be uncomfortable with most emotions, and so when somebody's angry, when somebody expresses that, we either think we have to solve it or we have to shut it down. No, just let it be. It's not a bad thing. They're upset, it shows they're passionate and also it's not your job to solve it. It's there, it's theirs to own, not yours to own.

John Hawker: 1:04:33

Yeah, that's a super powerful message, I think, for for people receiving feedback and for maybe any other people in my profession that are giving it or leaders giving it as well. And you mentioned culture and the British culture of kind of suppressing emotions or being taught that we should try and hide emotions. And do you think feedback and the way people receive it differs across different cultures? Then? Because you mentioned specifically British and from an emotional perspective, but there's feedback differ across cultures how we receive and how we, how we give it.

Dr Hayley Lewis: 1:05:06

Yeah, and not just cultures. So I talk a lot again, particularly with students, about what we call intersectionality, so how different aspects of who we are crossover. So then, when you lay on top not just our cultural background so whether or not I'm from the UK, or maybe my parents maybe I was born here but my parents were born elsewhere or my gender, my age, my education, my class, lay all that stuff on top of each other and that's what makes us beautifully unique, but that's also what will impact how we handle things such as honest conversations and giving and receiving feedback. I am many years ago now. I was, I was approached to help resolve conflict in this team, so pretty much every team member was each other's throats.

Dr Hayley Lewis: 1:05:56

That and when they weren't, they literally did not talk to each other. The only way they communicated with each other was by posting no email and they all sat together. They'd been through nine managers in seven years. It was, it was. It was tough and actually when I did my research so I interviewed each of them ahead of designing the first kind of team intervention session what came out to me was the diversity that that could have and should have been a strength for them was actually a detriment to them because they hadn't learned. They hadn't learned about each other or understood each other.

Dr Hayley Lewis: 1:06:32

I'll give you an example of one. There was an older gentleman in the team. He was from Mauritius, he was in his early sixties, so he's an older gentleman and for him it was really important that younger people respected their elders, knew their place, and he was constantly clashing With this younger Nigerian woman in her 20s who had been brought up to express herself. She was very loud, and so they were constantly. Neither was wrong.

Dr Hayley Lewis: 1:07:03

They just hadn't learned to understand each other's positions, backgrounds, and so a lot of the work I did with them was helping each other learn about each other and understand each other's backgrounds, professionally, personally, getting them to kind of do some, to share some stories with each other about what matters to them, and and that's at the heart of Good relationships, that allows us to navigate difficult conversations is knowing each other. The more familiar we are with each other In a way that's comfortable for us, the more it oils the wheels of those conversations. So great question, john, and I think it's quite complex because you've got multi layers Of kind of other things that make up who we are.

John Hawker: 1:07:47

Yeah, and, as you say, it's multiple layers. It's so many different facets that build up those that our uniqueness as well. Cultural sensitivity is a term I was introduced to about seven or eight years ago now and it comes up a lot in the leadership again. Do leaders have the cultural sensitivity to manage global teams where you're working with different Countries and, with that, different cultures as well? And I thought I'd ask the question because I I had the feeling that it would make a difference and it very clearly does. But again, you can work to break it's not even breaking down the boundaries, it's all about understanding, is it? Its knowledge is power and just understanding again Sorry to highly students context of the individual as well. So it makes sense. I'm conscious of how much time we've got left, so I'm gonna ask two more questions, if that's all right, before we close out with the closing tradition on this podcast. And what are your top three tips for giving constructive feedback?

Dr Hayley Lewis: 1:08:45

So the first is allow sufficient time and space for the conversation. Don't try and hurry it, so I'd always allow more time than you probably thought the conversation ends earlier. Happy day to get some time back. But allow sufficient time and space because it's something about honouring the conversation. The second is note down the most important thing you want to say.

Dr Hayley Lewis: 1:09:10

Often what can happen, particularly for anxious about the conversation, is we haven't noted it down. We get anxious, we build ourselves up, we know we've got to say that thing, but suddenly every litany of every wrong thing there's been a lot of of every wrong thing this person's ever done comes out like machine gun fire and so the person's a feeling like hitting all directions. But also which of those things is important? So keep yourself true and note it down. It's almost like an anchor.

Dr Hayley Lewis: 1:09:40

So one or two points what are the main points you or main point you want to get across? And the third is practice. If it's a conversation that you're particularly worried about, for whatever reason, as I said earlier, if you've got a trusted colleague or even a friend or family member that you can just say Could I just have 10 minutes with you, I just want to play through this conversation. This is what I'm thinking of saying, and there's a real power in that, as I say, because you've already done it, so it almost takes the fear out of it and also you can get some good feedback from your colleague or your friend that might help you in the conversation. So, yeah, those are the three main things that I would suggest that certainly others that I've worked with have found works.

John Hawker: 1:10:24

That's fantastic, thank you. I'll put you on a spot there, haley as well, but they're really useful and actionable tips. The last proper question and you understand what I mean in a second Technology and the introduction of technology during the pandemic and the way we're now working. What role do you think that's played in how we give feedback now and how it's impacted feedback? Do you think it's been a positive introduction or to the detriment of the quality of the feedback, in both how it's received and given as well?

Dr Hayley Lewis: 1:10:52

Again, typical psychologist I'm going to say it depends. So some people do it really well, some people not so well. I think those who have used it so, for example, if they've got hybrid working or 100% virtual working, still I think those people who've navigated that and having important conversations and honest conversations and kind of feedback, those who've done that really well. One of the things they've done is worked on the ground rules with people on how to have that conversation in this space and kind of documenting those. So, for example, make it clear when you've finished what you're saying so that the other person doesn't awkwardly jump in, which is what we can tend to do in virtual space. Make it clear if it's okay for the camera to be off or if you'd prefer it on. And again, we need to take into account different things there. So some people are embarrassed about their home set up. Some people there might be neuro divergence.

Dr Hayley Lewis: 1:11:49

So, for example, I have an autistic client who doesn't like the camera on and so I honour that but we've had that conversation at the start and that's one of our ground rules, so, yeah, so those who've navigated this space well have come up with some clear criteria that everybody can work to. Those who haven't haven't.

John Hawker: 1:12:08

Yeah, of course there's the opposite side of the coin, isn't there? But I think that's really powerful again for organisations. The reason I ask that question as well is because there is a real drive now at the moment to get people back into the office, especially in large consulting companies are calling their people back in droves for four or five days a week in the office and I just think maybe well, it's not, maybe. From my opinion, it's poor management that is driving those decisions for the most part. I know specific sectors and industries will have various different needs, but on the whole it's poor leadership and poor management and probably not addressing things like ground rules and in that particular virtual environment that's so powerful. So hopefully any leaders listening to this that are on the fence about oh god, everyone else is doing it, maybe we should do it. Differentiate yourself by having some conversations. That's my call to action for people.

Dr Hayley Lewis: 1:12:58

The final thing I'd say around that is the mistake that many of us made at the start of the pandemic and some of us continue to make Is we assumed that we could pick up what we did in person and simply drop it into virtual, and that's not the case at all. Good virtual facilitation, good virtual meeting management, good virtual conversations require more thought and more planning. And because so many of us in corporate life are so time strapped, so stressed, we feel we don't or we don't allow ourselves the time or space or feel we don't have the time or space to put that essential thought or planning in, and so the easier thing to do is just get everybody back in. But what I'm going to do is pretend it's about the fact we're more creative when we're together or we're more productive when we're together, and we know that's true in some cases, but not others.

Dr Hayley Lewis: 1:13:53

Deep thought and planning is what's required, and that's something I found myself. You know. I found it as a university lecture, I found it as a coach and a facilitator. I made some big old mistakes back in 2020. But I've definitely kind of learned that if I just make that time and effort to plan a bit more carefully and think this is a virtual space, I'm going to need to do things slightly differently. It pays dividends and you can still have powerful conversations and powerful sessions.

John Hawker: 1:14:21

Haley, that was incredible. Thank you so much for that, because I really like the fact we've ended on that, because it's such a hot topic of conversation at the moment. There's drive back into the office, so I think hopefully people will listen to that and realize it's probably they've got some work to do on their own leadership and some questions to ask themselves as well. Before we move on to the closing tradition, I'm also just going to say to anyone listening Haley mentioned her sketch notes earlier. If you don't know what a sketch note is, first of all look it up, but specifically look up Haley's sketch notes, because these again one of the reasons that I reached out to Haley. If you love learning in a visual way and visual messages, haley's sketch notes are incredible and they're also done in old school pen and paper and then scanned. I mean, who does that anymore? Haley does, but it's absolutely incredible, so look them up. I'll obviously include the link to Haley's LinkedIn profile on the websites in the podcast description as well.

John Hawker: 1:15:20

Right Closing tradition. Have you got time for this, haley? This won't take too long, is that okay, right. So the closing tradition on this podcast and you might have listened to some that have also got a closing tradition where a previous guest will leave a question for the current guest. Now, we don't do that here because this is my podcast and my mum my mum asked the questions, haley, so I'm going to play.

John Hawker: 1:15:44

I love that I'm going to play a question from my mum down the phone to you. Now I don't listen to these questions before they're played, so I don't know what mum's going to say. She knows who I'm speaking to. It's risky. It's very risky, as it's turned out on a number of episodes actually. But she knows what you do. Beyond that, let's just see what happens. I'll try and make sure it's the right volume when we start. Hi, dr Haley, using positive feedback, how can I get my husband to be a better?

Dr Hayley Lewis: 1:16:11

cook. Thank you, oh, mum, bless you. First of all, your mum. What a hero. I think she's in the hairdressers. What a hero.

John Hawker: 1:16:24

I think she's in the hairdressers.

Dr Hayley Lewis: 1:16:24

That's the background noise there.

John Hawker: 1:16:25

I love that.

Dr Hayley Lewis: 1:16:26

Yeah, lisa is her name if you want to direct the answer.

John Hawker: 1:16:29

Oh, Lisa.

Dr Hayley Lewis: 1:16:30

Lisa, I love your question, so I think there's three things for you to think about. The first is define what you mean by better cook. Good point, do you? Have a couple of criteria in mind. If your husband was a better cook, what's your husband's? Name Harry.

John Hawker: 1:16:50

Yes, Harry, I love it.

Dr Hayley Lewis: 1:16:52

My granddad was called Harry.

Dr Hayley Lewis: 1:16:55

So if Harry was a better cook, how would you know that? So if there are one or two things that would tell you who's a better cook so, for example, he might use more seasoning, and so once you're clear on that, then you need to kind of tell him that. So you need to kind of be specific, saying it would be great if you could use more seasoning in the future. And then third is positive reinforcement. So because none of us just likes to be criticized all the time, so on that occasion where he does cook something that you like, tell him, praise him and be specific on what made it a good dish, because feedback is about being specific, so not just specific on what's not right, it's also what's right. So, yeah, those are the three things that pop into my head, and it's also based on my own experience with my own husband as well.

John Hawker: 1:17:49

Good luck, lisa. Sir, mum will absolutely love that. I think her main barometer for Harry getting better at cooking is probably starting to do it. I don't, I was going to say just cooking. I don't think that's unfair to say. I think you're listening to this, dad. I'm sorry about that. Anyway, that's the closing tradition. Thank you for indulging that question and thank you again for mum to get involved on that as well.

John Hawker: 1:18:14

Hailey, it has been invaluable. This conversation and you've been so generous with your time and I know that so many people listening to that will get so much from it. We've referenced loads of books, loads of thinkers in this space, loads of inspiration that I want to include in the podcast description. I want to reach out to some of those references as well, just to ensure that I've got the right links. But thank you so much. It's been a genuine pleasure.

Dr Hayley Lewis: 1:18:36

You're very, very welcome. Thanks for having me and thanks for listening everyone.

John Hawker: 1:18:40

Yeah, lovely stuff. All right, Hailey, I'll speak to you soon, thank you.

Dr Hayley Lewis: 1:18:43

Take care, see you later.

John Hawker: 1:18:45

Thanks for listening to Jobs Worth. If you enjoyed this episode, please feel free to like and subscribe. You can stay connected by following me on LinkedIn for more insights on the world of work behind the scenes, content and updates on upcoming episodes. We're really thinking about guests for season two, so if there is a particular topic you'd like us to discuss, then please send in your suggestions to hello at jobsworthcom.