JobsWorth

Pens, Paper and Purpose

• John Hawker • Season 1 • Episode 12

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Do you ever feel like you're living a life that's not truly your own? You're not alone. I've invited my brother, Luke Adam Hawker, an accomplished artist, best-selling author, and father, to share his journey of trading a stable job for one fueled by passion. We dive into his past, his transition from a graphic designer and architect to a successful artist and author, and the balancing act of fatherhood and career.

Luke lets us in on the brave choice he made to leave a traditional job and start his own design business. Yes, he did trade a seemingly glamorous job of designing palaces for the Saudi royal family, but he found it lacking in passion. He reflects on the importance of following one's passion and the significance of a supportive network when taking the leap into entrepreneurship. We also discuss our shared experiences as fathers and entrepreneurs, highlighting our trials and triumphs in trying to strike the right balance.

The journey to finding purpose and fulfillment in one's work is never an easy one, but it's rewarding. Luke’s journey, achievements, and legacy offer hope and inspiration to anyone considering the path of self-employment. We discuss the rewards that come with taking risks, the importance of transparency, and the role of a supportive partner in pursuing creative projects. Listen in and get inspired. Whether you're contemplating a career change, an aspiring artist, or a parent juggling work and family life, this episode is for you.

The JobsWorth website is here www.jobs-worth.com

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Learn more about my proper job; https://www.globaltechcollective.com/

Contact me using hello@jobs-worth.com

John Hawker:

Jobsworth season one, episode 12 pens, paper and purpose. Welcome to episode 12 of Jobsworth, which, say for the epilogue that's coming soon will be the final full length episode in our first season. As Jobsworth kicked off with one of the biggest inspirations in my life, it felt right that it should close with the other one artist, sunday Times best-selling author and my little brother, luke Adam Hawker. We recorded this a while back, so you have to excuse us discussing the opening tradition to the podcast like it's a brand new shiny thing and for the super fans of Lisa Hawker, aka mum, you'll be sad to learn that her famous closing question doesn't feature this time around, and for that I can only apologize.

John Hawker:

My brother is one of a handful of people that had a strong idea of what they wanted to do when they grew up, from a very young age, and we discuss the earlier part of his career, from landing a job straight out of uni being headhunted to design palaces for the Saudi Royal family, and the reasons behind his move away from traditional employment and what many would consider a dream job. We also talk about his experience of being a self-employed artist, the series of events that led to him becoming a best-selling author and have a very honest conversation about fatherhood and striking the right balance between his role as a parent and someone that's incredibly passionate about what they do for a living. So, without further ado, for the last time this season, let me introduce you to one of the wisest, bravest and most talented people I know, my brother, luke Adam Hawker. Hello, luke, hi, brother, right, so this is take two of us doing this conversation. Yes, we have attempted to record this before.

John Hawker:

We failed. We did fail, but that was because I think the dynamic didn't work and ultimately, I think a lot of that was down to it turned into what I described as a family counseling session. When people ask me, it became yeah, like that. So we're trying it again. The question I'm gonna ask you is gonna be a tradition in every episode looking forward, so I'm gonna start with when you were younger. What did you want to be when you grew up?

Luke Hawker:

so I'm currently an artist but people assume I've always wanted to be one. But that's not been the case with seeing mum being an artist and it was really difficult and a bit of a struggle but I knew I wanted to draw. So I remember a big chunk of my kind of really early 11 to 13 really wanted to design cars.

John Hawker:

I remember that actually like sit just seeing scraps of paper with cars, cars on their robots.

Luke Hawker:

And I mean, let's be honest, we were both in the geek realm growing up, okay, which I'm quite proud of. Yeah, I'm an unashamedly so yeah and so robot wars was a thing yeah, I remember it well, so designing those loving that, so designer. But I wanted to draw for a living. I always kind of had that guiding force.

John Hawker:

I don't want to say guiding likes, but that, but that direction. So really, even though you claim that is not knowing what you wanted to be from a young age, having an eye that you wanted to even being designed yeah, not knowing what I wanted to be, but knowing what I wanted to do okay loosely enough.

John Hawker:

Loosely because you started fairly early, didn't you like now, now you're an artist and you started that path fairly early. I mean, you always had a talent when we were growing up, but when you started that for education, so I guess through GCSE, when it kind of started, but you don't have too much selection of the the classes you want to do. But then college, what did you do at college?

John Hawker:

graphic design, design technology, fine art, exactly so yeah, and then you went on to do a foundation, art, foundation, art, then into your architecture and design okay, so you you are someone that I would describe as having quite ingrained in you this feeling that you had a vision of what you wanted to do, or at least talents that you had, and that how you could make that a career or a living or make money from that, yeah, and also knowing, I think, my weaknesses, if I'm honest.

Luke Hawker:

So I was good at one's one set of skills that was quite specific and not so good at the other ones. So in a way, it's sometimes it's your limitations that can lead you to your strengths, I think yeah, I can understand that.

Luke Hawker:

So when you talk about your limitations, what you mean is maybe more of what would be broadly or societally classified as academic subjects yeah, and exams, exams, yeah, okay yeah, and that's most of academia really is kind of sitting you in a room being like perform, which is just not why I did yeah, very well, I mean you, you've gone on to show that you have got academic chops, though, haven't you both?

John Hawker:

both, I think. Growing up it was maybe if I can be so bold as to say this I was kind of leading the way in terms of academic yeah, that was your thing, that was my.

John Hawker:

Thing and then, as we got older, you start. You started not only to just like nip up my heels, but then not, there was a competition. I don't think so, I don't think so either, it's fine. And but yeah, you were nipping at my heels and then, all of a sudden, I think you support you far surpassed in a specific knowledge range because I obsess and went specific from that early age whereas you were always broader.

Luke Hawker:

I always had, I think, more of a natural ability to think in terms of writing yeah, maybe that put it down in words, whereas I was never really that strong at doing so.

John Hawker:

Yeah, okay that was a good answer to the question. What you?

Luke Hawker:

a lot there about both of us yeah, yeah, it's quite insightful though.

John Hawker:

So Luke is my brother. He is also a Sunday Times best-selling author and a freelance artist, so Luke was one of the main reasons I started Global Tech Collective him and my mum just seeing them, I think take the path to working for themselves and moving away from the standard or stereotypical forms of employment that were open to me really. So I have a lot to thank him for, and I don't think he's quite aware of how inspiring is, but we'll tap into that now. Gonna make him uncomfortable by just keep giving him compliment, please don't. And but maybe start, luke, then, by talking to us a little bit about your journey in employment, first of all so you do.

Luke Hawker:

So I'm here quick timeline. Go back to your education, yeah education first.

John Hawker:

So start from education up to your first job out of university from from uni so studied interior architecture and design.

Luke Hawker:

Where did you study that? Not him? Trent University. And then I part of the course and the reason I chose it was so in the third year I spent working in London. So it's a sandwich year course. So that was like really appealing that they would just send us out into the industry and we'd live and work in London for a year and that was the best year of education, just getting out there, as most people probably find the real world is.

Luke Hawker:

And then when I graduated I worked for a branding agency, so doing like interiors but linked to brands. Then I went to more than architectural firm and did architectural projects small-scale architectural projects. And then I was headhunted for more than interiors role, but you know, a concept concept designer role. So where they saw my a bit what happened was I was getting drawn into this CAD working on computers not where I wanted to be and people saw for my portfolio my drawing ability and then hired me specifically for that reason.

Luke Hawker:

And that's where things went really well for me, because I was drawing on my strengths and I intended and stood at the drawing board and just creating and getting recognition and, I guess, the financial award for that skill. It was really good. And then alongside that I was drawing for my own satisfaction and just going out into London and drawing to kind of connect to it. Eventually I built up this body of work where I thought, okay, I'm gonna give it a go and try and sell some exhibitions and markets, got to the point where I was covering my rent and then quit my job to pursue that 2015, is it been that long?

John Hawker:

now so eight years you've been freelance yeah you don't like freelance, though, do you?

Luke Hawker:

because you run freelance here we implies that the projects are client-led. Okay, I don't know why they and they were early on, yeah, now they're not. Yeah, okay.

John Hawker:

I understand that. So you went through a number of firms before making the decision to go on your own and start.

Luke Hawker:

Look at them, hawker, as I brought my middle name into the equation. I know why did that happen just quickly. I don't want to go off into too much.

Luke Hawker:

But so you got to realize when I was a designer, I was Luke Hawker. Hmm, then, alongside that, I wanted to push my artistic portfolio and like me as an artist, right, so I don't want them clashing, yeah, so I brought in my middle name. Yeah, that also made me more, more unique when it comes to searching, right? So if you put Luke, and what you're gonna find, if it looked at Luke Hawker, you might get a some Kiwi actor.

John Hawker:

I was just about to reference the actor yeah, so you do get a few.

Luke Hawker:

So there's that reason. Part of me regrets that, but I don't think I could have done it any other way.

John Hawker:

I'm your name as well, like just just to confirm Adam is your middle name.

Luke Hawker:

Yeah but it's just. It's clearly the stronger name because I'd say about 30% or more emails start with hi Adam my email is Luke at Luke and Hawker hi. Adam, that to me is just like and in person it's not. It's something going on. A big chunk of people do it.

John Hawker:

It's a good name. So you got to the point you made this decision to. I call it jump or leap into working for yourself. Yeah, what take us through a bit about the journey that took you to even thinking this could be a potential option for you, and how much of that do you think was influenced by the our main role model, which was mum working for herself as well?

Luke Hawker:

Yeah. So she's obviously played a big role, but I'd say her the inspiration from mum was more impacting at a younger age rather than when I took that decision. It wasn't a case of looking at what mum was doing and thinking, oh I can, it just wasn't. I think early early days her encouragement and proof that you can you can kind of put value to those skills that influenced me in a more subconscious level when I took that decision. It was more of a. I felt like I achieved a lot as a designer, as an interior designer effectively, and had traveled a fair bit, and I was kind of in a place where I was like, well, the only, the only way up here is a way from creativity because, a lot of people in design firms probably understand that actually to to go up in terms of up that ladder, then you're going to get further away from the activity that probably brought you into the industry in the first place.

Luke Hawker:

You become project manager, become you're spinning plates, which is hard, but further away from from probably your strengths, especially for me. So that's why I thought why not? Why not try?

John Hawker:

I think as well. What you described there is is getting sucked into that kind of ladder of progression is a situation a lot of people found them or find themselves in within any industry that not necessarily creative, but sometimes the tools that you use to get you the kind of recognition that gives you those opportunities to progress. What they tend to mean progression opportunities is usually people management.

John Hawker:

Yeah, always, because then you've got more control of the bigger part of the company and they can, which appears to some because you need people that have that skill set and want to manage people. But again, from my experience, I was in an agency for seven and a half years, got an opportunity to progress or I was six years in at that time and then was given this opportunity to progress into a management role and it was really, I think, what tipped me over the edge to leave anyway because it just didn't fit my, my strengths and yeah, I mean, you could perform in that role.

Luke Hawker:

I that that I could not have done it. I just I can't. I find really difficult to commit to something I'm not fully behind.

John Hawker:

You can say passion. I know I banned you from saying passion.

Luke Hawker:

No, I'm going to try and not say it once.

John Hawker:

Okay, so we get to this point. You've had your more traditional forms of employment and you decide to take the leap. Do you remember considering it was now eight years ago the conversations you were having with people around that time? Was it met with support? Was it met with further questioning that started to make you doubt yourself at all? What do you remember? Anything?

Luke Hawker:

about no one. Everyone got behind me and everyone said, yeah, do it. Because I think they knew that what was the alternative? You know, what's the alternative for me is just regret. Nobody wants that, especially loved ones, and I don't have a huge pool of friends I'm regularly speaking with, so it'll be you, lizzie, at the time, and mum and Harry maybe. Yeah, lizzie's Luke's wife, oh yeah, yeah, well, she wasn't the time, she was my friend oh my girlfriend, it's, it's.

Luke Hawker:

We don't need to go into detail now and Harry's our and is our dad as well.

John Hawker:

Just just to clarify. I mean, I didn't really mean from our perspective, because I know that you're always going to be getting support and we'll champion what I think us as a pod or as a family have always been very positive pod killer whales yeah, um, or because, oh, nice, okay, but as as a family, we've always been supportive of whatever any of us want to try and do.

John Hawker:

And and then I was. I guess my focus was more around colleagues. And then how did your boss at the time, or the people who managed you, when you said what you were going for, did you tell them that you were leaving that business to go and start on your own? I can't remember. Okay, honestly, I can't remember. Yeah, I can't remember the.

Luke Hawker:

I remember just feeling really excited to have my notice in, probably good to explain that I wasn't truly invested in the projects that I was working on.

John Hawker:

Talk to us a little bit about this, because when, when I, when I um, especially at family parties I go, and me and you stood next to each other and we talk about what we do for a living, my my piss-taking introduction for you is oh, luke designs. Luke used to design uh palaces for the Saudi royal family. Yeah, and I'm just a recruiter to which most people go huh, what do you really do, john? I'm like, no, I'm literally just a recruiter, but tell us what you did, because it's interesting out outwardly.

John Hawker:

I don't like that, I know, but that's fine. That's maybe being self-deprecating, but outwardly it sounds like what you you were doing would be a dream job for a lot of people that are training or studying in your space.

Luke Hawker:

Yeah, I got that job for a recruiter, mind you, and so basically I was working for the Saudi royal family and it's not actually something I'm proud of saying at all. Okay, it was really fun no budget, brilliant memorable stories, travel experiences so I don't regret doing it, but there comes a point where you look into the projects and you know just what.

John Hawker:

What you're leaving behind is just not what you really should be that legacy and I guess a lot about what you were doing at the time was with the legacy you were building and because you're leaving like a tangible thing behind you, aren't you, or your input is helping to build a tangible thing that might stand for centuries?

Luke Hawker:

but literally, yeah, yeah, and I'm I'm happy that I created some spaces that I was really proud of, but it's kind of who is enjoying them and in what way?

John Hawker:

understood. Okay, so in moving to being self-employed, can we? Self-employed is right, isn't it? Because you were self-employed, yeah, okay so. So in moving to self-employed, you had this autonomy to to do the projects you wanted to do. What you were after was probably trying to find something that you were more engaged by and was more meaningful.

Luke Hawker:

Yeah, and I already had all the ideas in my head. So it wasn't like leaving a job and being clueless as to what to do. It felt like I was like off the starting block and had the time to do it. You had a direction. I had a direction that I was kind of running in parallel along the time of my work. So for a big chunk of that work I was just disengaged with the job and doing my own bits alongside it.

John Hawker:

When you were disengaged and when maybe you felt like there wasn't meaning behind the work you were doing did that impact you in any negative ways. Some of the studies I've read about lack of meaningful work can lead to low moods, even depression as well.

Luke Hawker:

No, I felt like back in those days I just felt really resilient to lows really, and it's only in recent years where I've experienced the realities of that side of things, mental health coming in.

John Hawker:

So, eight years on, it's fair to say that it's not the fluke that you're still working for yourself. There's been some huge success that you've had along the way. What are some of the biggest achievements you've made in the last eight years that you're most proud of? Just specifically on work, If you say little Harry.

Luke Hawker:

I appreciate having a son, who's a massive achievement. No one cares.

John Hawker:

Talk to us about your biggest work achievement.

Luke Hawker:

So I go for it. Early days was just growing that online sales year on year. So I used to sell a lot at markets and that might sound a little bit strange kind of pursuing a career in art and selling at markets, but it was such a great way to just tap into an audience just passing by and actually if you can captivate an audience that is just walking by in the street rather than gone to a specific exhibition, you're doing quite well. So I felt confidence from that. And then year on year, so for the first three years, my online sales were doubling each year. That gave me confidence and enabled me to invest One of my biggest career achievements, which was my trip around Europe, which I view as both a life goal and a career achievement because my purpose for traveling. So just brief recap of the trip, brief Go for it.

Luke Hawker:

No, I love it, I love a read. So I did three months around Europe in my camp, then called Brian and just drawing, so my sole purpose of traveling was drawing 11 countries. Just traveling. Through all these new experiences I felt like I did a lifetime of traveling and a huge body of work, which then I got back and just felt. I just felt like a completely kind of shaken off. The designer interior designer Luke.

John Hawker:

Right, okay, and was that skin almost?

Luke Hawker:

Yeah, and just felt really positive about the future, which was nice, yeah, 2018. That was so Probably whilst the whole Brexit thing was happening definitely happening.

John Hawker:

Hadn't happened. Hadn't happened, it's slightly more difficult so.

Luke Hawker:

I had that freedom which is anyway, we won't get into that but had that freedom.

John Hawker:

Political podcast yeah.

Luke Hawker:

Which just built, built me up really, and I had times I was really lonely so had to bring in kind of that mental health tools of just being a bit more resilient to that loneliness which hadn't really felt throughout the trip. Yeah yeah, it was just formative. So then after that, other big achievements. So Westminster, big Ben covered in scaffolding for renovations for some years, actually, 2018.

Luke Hawker:

I went along to draw it at my years or I'd never really been interested in drawing it a shy away from things that are too iconic, that come across as quite kitsch when you're just covering the same ground everyone else has. So this was something new and I think that something that embodied what was going on at the time and so that was ended up being picked up by the Parliamentary Art Collection, went to committee. A soul to the Parliamentary Art Collection found I had enough money from that and a number of commissions through Soho House to build up enough money to buy it by by house, not in London, sadly. So I moved, moved out, but I'm really glad I did now. So I see that as like one achievement and that's strange. I should be breaking this up more.

John Hawker:

I mean I would have. I would have definitely been surprised if you hadn't picked big Ben and selling that to Parliamentary Art. I could say why it feels really big for me.

Luke Hawker:

It's because it's definitely one of my artworks that will be looked after long after I'm gone.

John Hawker:

And that legacy Talk to us about that. So so actually having a piece of work bought by the Parliamentary Art Collection means what for that piece of?

Luke Hawker:

work. It will be housed in Parliament and protected for as long as.

John Hawker:

Parliament exists, which I would imagine would be a long time A while.

Luke Hawker:

Yeah.

John Hawker:

I mean it's incredible. I was there at the unveiling of that. Obviously, we knew about it having been acquired, but I was there at the unveiling. I can't remember what part of West, not Westminster West. Westminster it was at but I just remember it being a big occasion, lots of people queuing to get in, and it was. It was a really big evening, good fun yeah.

John Hawker:

Yeah, it was a lot of fun, yeah, wow, okay. So I mean for me just interjecting as well I'm not trying to blow smoke up your arse because you're my brother, but things like creating a book, quite a big deal.

Luke Hawker:

Yeah.

John Hawker:

Then creating two books. I think quite a big deal as well. Yeah, maybe not the career, not the goal that you had when you first started setting out to do something like this as well. So talk to us a bit about the book together, because that was a project that culminated during one of the, you know, the most trying times for people around the world. So tell us about that.

Luke Hawker:

Yeah, so books I'd never imagined creating, but I've written about this actually before by. I've not been a big reader, you'll know this. Yes, so sketchbooks are kind of my thing and I never really saw the potential to publish I guess my artwork hadn't really crossed my mind in book form. And then we came up with the idea me being me and you, to come up with a project that was inspired. So you write poetry. Maybe people don't know that, but you do. It's amazing. Thank you very much. And so we came up with the idea that we'd make a book, or a body of work at least, where I would draw an image that was kind of based on my imagination really, and then John would write a poem about the image inspired by the image, and I put that out on my Instagram. And that, combined with a lot of more reflective work about what was going on around the world, I think was picked up by a publisher, marianne Laidlaw, who saw the potential in my work, not John's work. She wasn't a fan of the poetry.

John Hawker:

Well, poetry is very anyway, we won't get into that.

Luke Hawker:

Doesn't sound like that so. I ditched John on this journey of making a book that's what it sounds like.

John Hawker:

But you know, I mentioned in the acknowledgments though, which is not you are.

Luke Hawker:

And so yeah, so I ended up going on this journey of creating this book through lockdown. It took three months to create its image, an image led book, you might say pitch book or graphic novel and it was a very personal project. So it's based on our late granddad, brian. He was the main father figure for us growing up, so it was me, my brother I can't say my brother looking who you're talking to.

John Hawker:

He's talking to me. Oh yeah, sorry, that's fine, I just, I'm just double track, I was just very aware people might be listening Maybe. No, maybe they are, I don't know.

Luke Hawker:

So yeah, so it wasn't it, john, it was me, you, mum and granddad yeah, so the majority of our formative years and when we go over this, also the book. So he's the main, he's the main protagonist, along with my current dog, robin, and so I went back through a lot of those memories and I was trying to encapsulate his kindness and empathy in this book. So I thought that would make the perfect character to lead you through this storm, which forms a metaphor for COVID and lockdown and etc. So that was really well received and, yeah, became Sunday Times bestseller. It's in 11 languages. It was, yeah, quite a big a big moment.

John Hawker:

Quite a big deal and led to the next book. Yeah, and the next book is the Last Tree.

Luke Hawker:

It's the Last Tree.

John Hawker:

And yeah, I mean it's and that's been amazing part, I think, of your journey to observe as well and witness both the it sounds like cliche but the blood, sweat and tears that you put into actually creating these bodies of work and turning them into books and it's just incredible. But then to see it received I think it's a dream. Just to publish and then for it to be really successful as well just shows that what you're doing is it's not just me and mum think it's good.

Luke Hawker:

Yeah, that's nice, which is quite nice, people agree. But the second book took a hell of a lot longer than three months. Yeah, it's just a great thing to create because of my son coming along yeah.

John Hawker:

So talk to me then, about the impact of little Harry. So Harry's my nephew and your son, but little Harry coming along on what it's like to work for yourself, because I mean, we can both maybe share some stories around this as well, but what's your experience been as a dad, and a dad that works for themselves? And you know, it's just being full transparency is the primary earner for your household as well.

Luke Hawker:

It's hard to compare. So I can, yeah, so I can only give it my perspective, but I can't say if it was. So it's been really difficult. Really difficult, because you have the freedom to spend time with your dad, to spend time, which is amazing but then that it's like it swings back in your face because then you've got the anxiety and guilt about not putting as much time into your work as you should be. But then there's this whole question mark about how much time you should be putting into your work when you have this new human you've created and need to really invest in. Hmm, so I really struggled, but also I realized that I needed to make a change.

Luke Hawker:

So I now have an assistant, laura, who's, in those early days especially, was really integral, just keeping things going. So I send prints out regularly for my online sales and still do markets. So there's a lot. There's a lot that I still have to do, but things inevitably slowed down and I felt like far less of an artist, and it's because I attribute so much of myself to being an artist. So this is the I guess this is the drawback of pursuing your passion so wholeheartedly is that when you have to make sacrifices around it. You fill them on a really personal level. It's not just a financial hit. It's what I might now, and I think everybody fills it to a degree when they're a parent. It's loss of identity, yeah. So I just think that maybe you can feel it more acutely when you really do want to be cracking on with those projects that just and we had this discussion before.

John Hawker:

I think there's a lot of guilt around that as well, the guilt that comes from wanting to invest time in something you generally care about. Two things you generally care about One being this this thing that was built before your babies come along and that ultimately supports and enables you to have the lifestyle and you have and your family have, and also this human being that you were fortunate enough to have a conscious decision about wanting to bring into the world, and how much of your time you want to invest in that. For me, what I find really difficult is at times when I'm in the office.

John Hawker:

I will sit here thinking I should be at home with the kids and there are times when I'm at home with the kids, when I should be thinking I should be really at work and you're nowhere and I'm nowhere.

Luke Hawker:

You're stuck in this kind of purgatory basically where both sides of your head are just beating yourself with a stick, so it's quite a brutal mindset to get in so do you think that because neither of us have experienced fatherhood through employment, traditional employment, having a boss, do you think that the challenges are greater? I mean, it's hard to know we need someone else really, that has gone through it. Because I feel like, although they've been great, the challenges being self-employed, I just could not have made it through, nor could my family have made it through, without that freedom to say no, maybe nothing is going to be getting done at all for the next two, three weeks because I need to be there. I know it's part because my son has had extra needs along the way, but I just can't fathom it and I feel for people in that position because they might be listening to us thinking oh, that's the guilt issue, although we know it's a very big one having it more like a fear of losing your job, that anxiety might even be greater or not.

John Hawker:

Now I completely understand that my experience. So there was a time where I did a sort of transition from your stereotypical form of employment into working for myself, around the time that Finley was one.

John Hawker:

So, Finley turned one, literally as I was starting Global Tech Collective. But when Finley was born so Finley's my oldest he's now five years old. I want to say five days after he was born he lost a drastic amount of weight and we were back in the hospital for three or four days. So ultimately, all I was given at the time were two weeks of paternity leave and, regardless of what happened, I had to be back into the office after that point. Now, if I compare that with how long I took off for Bodie when he was born, so Bodie's now two I probably just got back.

Luke Hawker:

Yeah, just got back.

John Hawker:

Yeah, I've just gone back to sort of normal working hours, but no, I think when Bodie was born, I had that time and the autonomy to be like okay, I will gradually allow myself to get back into this and I'll admit this. I don't know if I'll admit this to my other half, but she will listen to this so I'm admitting it to her anyway. I was writing emails, sending offers out to candidates, in the very early stages of when she was in labour with Bodie as well.

John Hawker:

Wow, okay, which I'm not proud of, but ultimately the labour lasted 14 hours, no the labour lasted 14 hours, so I didn't feel like I was going to get in too much trouble. I wasn't doing it as Bodie was arriving. Some people were checking like football results and things like that, so I think I was pretty engaged but I think I had all of that autonomy. So actually the sort of formative months of Bodie's arrival was so much.

John Hawker:

I just felt so much more present because I can invest myself in the way that I am, I can invest myself in the way that I wanted to. So, yeah, I have no doubt that maybe people that are listening to this, that are still employed and have a boss, especially a boss that isn't understanding, will be thinking what a privileged position for us to be in being dads with our own businesses that can build that around our families.

Luke Hawker:

Yeah, and I'm grateful for that, so it's not like I am.

John Hawker:

Yeah, yeah, I think, if I zoom out far enough, then I'm not going to be a burden to you.

Luke Hawker:

Yeah, you look back. Yes, it's been really hard, but step back. And what are the alternatives?

John Hawker:

Well, this is the other thing as well. When we talk about work life balance and I think for a lot of people that work for themselves, you'll hear you know, I wouldn't say horror stories, but you'll hear really negative stories of people that just don't have a work life balance. For me, when you're self employed, it's more about work life integration. And then when I zoom out okay, if I, if I look at any given week, my work life balance probably isn't as good as it might have been when I was working for someone Zoom out over a year, my work life balance is a hell of a lot better, because, whilst I might commit to three weeks where I've got my head down and I'm working hard and I'm prioritising work over things like health, unfortunately, and sometimes relationships and a bit of self care, well, actually I combat that by giving myself a lot more time after as well. So would I have got that flexibility working for someone? Definitely not 100%.

John Hawker:

So, yeah, that's a really good point and I think businesses now that are starting to offer enhanced paternity policies or parental leave in general, I think they're the ones that are going to be able to attract people and retain people moving forward. Hopefully it's going to be a rarity in the future that we're going to say two weeks of paternity leave.

Luke Hawker:

It has to be, and also just the nature of choice, and that's what people have when they choose a job.

Luke Hawker:

Hopefully is that it means the companies will only benefit from the more they offer, so they're going to get the best stuff because more than ever now people are looking at the salary and well, this is kind of what I've learned from you looking at the salary and the package around the salary and it really matters, probably more now than ever, because it doesn't matter at all if you've got a huge salary and remuneration in terms of living your life, bank account You've not got the balance to actually go out and use any of it as well.

John Hawker:

So talk to me a little bit more as well about some of the specific challenges you've been working for yourself for a period of time. Harry comes along, harry's now two. What were some of the specific challenges that you faced between juggling this new job, which is fatherhood, and the existing job, which is running Luke Adam Hawker?

Luke Hawker:

So for a big chunk of that for his existence. I've been working on the second book, so I would say and this might be very specific to a creative project, but your head is in it. So I'm lucky that my family is very tolerant of me being a daydreamer and I think I always have been 100%.

John Hawker:

Not.

Luke Hawker:

So very rare. The whole time I'm with someone, I'm fully present and that sounds really bad. I'm not looking down on my phone or anything, it's just me thinking about other things. And actually when I have a creative project I'm doing it a lot more. So when I'm going for the family walk in the woods I'll end up talking about the project and actually having a partner, ie my wife, who is really creative herself and supportive of my work. I don't think anybody else would tolerate me unless they found that side of me interesting.

Luke Hawker:

So the challenges were just on the time front, so prioritising where to spend my time in the studio or at home.

Luke Hawker:

But they're a three minute walk away and I can have Harriet the studio for a bit with Liz. So I guess, to be honest, I'm finding it harder as it goes on, because at first you're telling yourself, oh, this isn't for long and eventually I'll be able to just go full steam ahead of my creative work. And in that time, whilst things have been more focused on either mainly on my family and then my book, everything feels a bit like a side hustle in relation to your family. And now I wanna give so much more to my projects, which I have been doing in, probably in the last month, but then you got that guilt creeping back in, so I would say that it probably never really go away. It's just that you become the people that you're trying you're feeling guilty about letting down. Come and let you know in a transparent way that no, you're not letting them down, and then that kind of takes away the guilt. It's not through a lack of juggling, it's through an increase in communication and understanding between the people you care about.

John Hawker:

Yeah, that's a really good point. I think it's that transparency between the people that are impacted by what it is you're doing and that time you're spending away from them is key, isn't it? And it's funny you bring up the role of Lizzie, your wife, in being that partner and that cheerleader and someone that you can also use as sounding board. I think a lot of the people I've spoken to reference someone in their life, not always their partner, but someone that acts as that, Whether it's inspiration, whether it's someone that can level you slightly, whether it's someone that can give you free therapy. Whatever it is.

Luke Hawker:

Yeah, and just complete, just real, frank feedback. Yeah, honest feedback on the projects I'm doing, which is really useful because I think it's quite rare, and then also, on the other hand, when I'm feeling low, then she'll remind me of my achievements and that will move towards, like, lifting me out of that.

John Hawker:

Yeah, Because one thing when your family do it is in like like me and Mum, and hopefully you know we're always being honest about it. But I think it's fair to say that Mum's default position is I'm gonna make you feel better by just giving you every compliment under the sun, Nine times out of 10, she's a hyper positive.

John Hawker:

I think she genuinely feels that I don't disagree at all. But sometimes you need outside external parties away from that nucleus telling you. They could even tell you exactly the same thing, but just having that conversation makes it a huge difference.

Luke Hawker:

So a question.

John Hawker:

I've got for you. Then would you ever go back into full time employment with a boss, that kind of stereotypical world of work?

Luke Hawker:

Definitely not, but why.

Luke Hawker:

So well, I guess, like again, it all comes down to time and freedom to spend my time, which is the ultimate wealth. Yeah, like, regardless of anything, we're all like. Let's say, average is right. We all live to, say, it's 75 or 80, probably. Now we all live to 80 and we've all got this a lotted number of hours in our lives, if we're lucky. And how do we spend it? Regardless of how much money we're bringing in, how are we spending that? And if I look back on my life and think and I think I've done my best to spend as much as my time here doing the things I love and the things I am passionate about I know you hate the word passion, but it's an important one then it will lead to less regret and more fulfillment and more purpose. So I would never I shouldn't say never- Well, this is the thing, isn't it?

John Hawker:

Because I say exactly the same thing, and I'm quite outwardly like outspoken about this on any platform that they allow me to.

Luke Hawker:

That's interesting, though, because your role in many cases is finding people to work for other people. Yeah, so that's an interesting. So what so?

John Hawker:

I have. I did it, so I worked for someone else and within a larger company for long enough to know something about myself, which is I don't necessarily want to prescribe to what normal work looks like, especially in the sector that I operate in as well. I think that allows me a perspective that better starts to fill to the clients I do wanna work with as well, because not only does it take a lot for me to ever think, oh God, could I really work with them Actually, that's how that's the barometer that I measure the clients that I work with by there is an element of me that thinks could I get behind interviewing with you? If you were interviewing me, would I find this? Would I find you someone that I could work with? Is the sort of mission you're on inspiring or lighting something within me as well, and I actually think I've used my experience to build stronger relationships with the people that I go on to place as well for that exact reason, because I know what it would take for me to go and work for someone again.

Luke Hawker:

Yeah, and I guess Health freezing over and I guess that. But what's interesting even though that's a logical stance for a recruiter, traditional recruiter that goes in your favor, because people will see that you're being honest and I think that matters more than yeah, people just wanna know the sales pitch.

John Hawker:

Yeah, people just want transparency and honesty and a frank conversation as well.

Luke Hawker:

So just to clarify, you would advise no. Like everyone listening, John would definitely advise you to not work for anyone. Don't work for anyone else. That's not what.

John Hawker:

I'm saying all of his clients bear that in mind.

John Hawker:

Yeah, I'm basically just pushing. Yeah. But the amount of people I speak to had really successful careers in employment. Maybe that's been interspersed with interim or contract engagements where they're essentially working for themselves.

John Hawker:

Anyway, anyone that calls me and says, john, I'm thinking about working for myself, I will always say do it. I will always say do it for one of the reasons you gave, which is do you want to regret Not having done it? Or looking back on your life and thinking I gave it a go because I know from my experience. I spent seven and a half years in recruitment and I was unhappy, not just unhappy in the organization. I didn't like what I was doing for a living. Within two or three months bearing in mind that in another three months time, after I Kicked global tech collective off, there was a pandemic. I would still say During the pandemic, I was still happier than I've ever been in employment, working for myself. So I would always bang the drum to say people should do what they want to do and follow there. I'm doing air quotes here passion, because yeah, you don't.

Luke Hawker:

Why have you brutalized the word passion?

John Hawker:

I haven't brutalized it, I just think it's such a cliche and I think so many people Disagree.

Luke Hawker:

I disagree. That's what it's about.

John Hawker:

But Not a lot of it in the world.

Luke Hawker:

I don't think passion, I don't think there's enough of it, genuine passion for things. So life, work, whatever and I'm not apathy is on the rise and passion is going down so the point I I definitely I agree with you to.

John Hawker:

Maybe it's not as bleak as you're making it sound, but Turning your passion into work and into your career, that's what I have a Problem with. Only when people are starting to pedal, that is. That should be the thing you want to do, because you don't. Sometimes your passion and your work can be completely separate.

John Hawker:

Yeah, sometimes something you start by Doing as a job you can become passionate about, but what I've got an issue with. So I'm Passionate about gardening but right now, if I turn, I do. I have no Goal at all to make that into a career anytime soon, because I feel like it would just strip the joy and the experience that I have out of that really so there's, so I went to discuss a collaboration with National Trust up at Pulse and Lacey, are you? Named, not me, not Pulse and Lacey. You name dropping National Trust.

Luke Hawker:

No, I mean you can do it, it's fine.

Luke Hawker:

Yeah so anyway, my point is, when they said to me I Met the head ranger and they said, oh well, we're looking for Rangers at the moment, but when, like, people aren't coming forward, I I wondered if I Started putting myself in, that, like how I think I could get a lot of joy from that kind of job, because I love being outdoors and there'd be something nice about just your role being to look after Land. I started thinking about you. How is I just see you doing it? Hmm.

John Hawker:

That is one day where I you know a job, where I'm out, I'm just putting out as like an actual opportunity.

Luke Hawker:

It's all well and good saying or gardening, because you might struggle to picture it, but if, if, if somebody has this opportunity well, yeah, I guess, so do you want me? To send them any yeah, yeah. How freezing over? Or a range.

John Hawker:

But my brother just mentions once yeah, yeah. So my problems with passion are not Not about people using the word passion. It's just that I think if you are always in your head Driven to try and turn your passion into a career, will be passionate about what is you're doing. I think that can lead to a lot of Discontentment and unhappiness, destruction.

Luke Hawker:

Yeah, I agree. So it's something that is not blindly, I would not blindly endorse, but I'd say in most cases then People should probably do it. But whereas you you're more reluctant to, I'm more reluctant to it, but also I think it's.

John Hawker:

You know, there's that cliche term that I can't remember word-for-word, but it's better to regret having done something. Them sit there regretting never having tried to do it within.

John Hawker:

The law Within within the confines of the law. Thanks, luke, but yeah, I think I will always back people that want to do something on off their own back, because I think it's a it's. I will always be honest about the challenges that you're gonna face doing it, but I think it's a good way to To focus your energy anyway. Eight years in your experience of being self-employed has been a positive one on the whole. The challenges of fatherhood have been present, but you've overcome those as well. Exactly the same story for me, I think, as well. In having done those, is there any one thing in the not too distant future that you're excited about, a project that you're working on that you just want to share?

Luke Hawker:

Yeah, so I Guess, a new direction. So one thing summarized that I've been for so long I've been working from observations. I'll go and take my ease on and try and capture a sense of place, normally around London, because I'm kind of very much based around London and I think gradually over time it's moved towards away from architecture and more towards nature and specifically trees, ancient trees, and that's led me into this whole world of our Connections, societal connection, of nature. So exploring that and seeing how I can use Observation from two different locations, multiple locations, to create a whole new, more surreal imagined sense of place and Just kind of be more conceptual with my work, I feel really I do feel really excited about Just experimenting more, developing more and, in all honesty, creating shows that do Sell out and captivate collectors, and all the signs are going, all the signs are right for that happening.

Luke Hawker:

I've been selling more original work and I've got an exhibition in a month which I'm really hopeful for. So yeah, just just I guess the the direction is what yeah about and just creating. Going back to my Career as a designer, not feeling fulfilled in terms of legacy, I'm moving close and close to where I feel really content, not pride, but just content with what I'm creating, leaving behind messages, behind my work and the people I'm working with, the collaborations that I've kind of got lined up that I think are all in line with my ethos.

Luke Hawker:

Yeah which is kind of developed and is now something I'm quite proud of. Hmm, that's.

John Hawker:

I mean, it has been amazing to see that journey as well, with that of that style, and also your and I think you, your commitment to where you want to go and having that strength of mind to To really get behind that, that direction that you're pressing in as well. And I feel like your, your focus, your goal has always been quite clear to you and there's very little that can throw you off that course and things will obviously get in the way and There'll be speed bumps. But Ultimately, I've always seen in you from even in your, I'd say, as early as your sort of late teens, early 20s you had an idea of even what you wanted to do for a living and then, as your time working for yourself continued, had a really good idea of where it is you wanted to go in terms of the body of work you wanted to create as well. So it's been really lovely to see that start to come to fruition.

Luke Hawker:

Thanks, brother, thank you.

John Hawker:

That's it. I think we can finish.

Luke Hawker:

Oh yeah, that's good.

John Hawker:

Thanks for listening to jobs worth. If you enjoyed this episode, please feel free to like and subscribe. You can stay connected by following me on LinkedIn for more insights on the world of work behind the scenes, content and updates on upcoming episodes. We're really thinking about guests for season 2, so if there is a particular topic you'd like us to discuss, then please send in your suggestions to hello at jobsworthcom.

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