JobsWorth
Welcome to JobsWorth, a podcast filled with stories from people changing their relationship with work, inspiring others to do the same
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JobsWorth
Breaking Boundaries
The path to success is as much about the missteps as the milestones. Charlotte and I traverse the education and experiences that led her to interior design, reflecting on how a blend of family influence, academic choices, and a healthy dose of independence shaped her professional ambitions. We highlight the critical moments of her career, from the serendipity of landing a job where eagerness won over experience, to the pivot from redundancy to entrepreneurship—each chapter marking the contours of a life less ordinary.
As we peel back the layers of work-life balance, Charlotte illustrates how she's crafted a family vibe in her business, all while championing community ties and fostering collaborations that extend far beyond The Boundary's beautiful spaces. Her journey is a colorful tapestry of 'blinkinies' and bridal gowns, of joyous community events and the quest for personal fulfillment. Join us for an inspiring listen that offers a peek into the vibrant spirit of an entrepreneur balancing the books and bedtime stories with equal finesse.
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Contact me using hello@jobs-worth.com
She's like a big kid.
John Hawker:She's like some Lego, yeah, basically all the Lego that she doesn't want in the house and everything. Take all the time you want to get comfortable and I hope you get set up and everything. Jobs Worth season 2, episode 1 Breaking Boundaries. Welcome to the first episode in the brand new season of Jobs Worth. Kicking things off and setting the bar incredibly high this time round is Charlotte de Boncea Proud, owner of Essex based wedding and events venue, the Boundary.
John Hawker:I've known Charlotte for a little over 12 years now, but we've never had the chance to sit down properly and talk about work. It's not really the done thing when you're drunk on coffee patron at house parties, so this was a real eye opener. We discussed what it was like to forge her own path straight out of school, how she took her future into her own hands whilst working in a well-known high street retailer and her tenacious approach to dealing with redundancy just months after securing her dream job out of college. You'll come to learn that Charlotte's had a few side hustles over the years, the boundary being one of them, bubbling away in the background while she made waves in her full-time job in interior design. That all changed after her role with a long-time employer was made redundant in the midst of the pandemic, just months after she became a mum for the first time, we talk about the transition from employee to business owner and now employer, as well as the impact that the arrival of her two daughters has had on her work ethic and the behaviour Charlotte wants to role model for them.
John Hawker:So for the first time this season, and without further ado, let me introduce you to the owner of South Inon C's premier wedding venue and Bikini Bedazzler to the stars. Trust me, it will make sense soon. Charlotte De Bond Sayer. Ok, charlotte, so you've heard this podcast before, so you know that the opening question when we kick things off is sticking around for season two as well. So the opening question is when you were younger, what did you want to be when you grew up?
Charlotte Debond-Sayer:So I've actually thought about this a fair few times whilst listening to it. I think the first one is going to make you laugh, so I'm going to share it with you. So the earliest memory of having a conversation about what I might like to do when I grow up was actually in the car with one of our friends, nikki Because we grew up together and her mum, so we were young like junior school. Can't remember an age but junior school and I remember looking out the window down a hill and there was so much rubbish everywhere and I said when I'm older, I want to tidy all of this up and I wanted to make the place look nice. And, interestingly, nikki and her mum laughed, saying you want to be a bin man.
John Hawker:I guess that's the conclusion you jumped to.
Charlotte Debond-Sayer:Which wasn't what I wanted. But I just remember thinking I wanted to make it look nice, which is a funny thing. Then I don't really remember much else apart from then. Careers advice at senior school.
Charlotte Debond-Sayer:I was going to ask you about that at some point as well, so go on which was a very odd thing, really, because I don't think you're getting very good career advice at that time. They're just where you're going to go after school, right? And I remember having a conversation with my parents and stuff when I was making those decisions on what you do for your final choices, like what subjects you should do. Mine were all very creative, so dance, art, tech, sewing type thing, and food, even though I was actually quite good at the maths and things I had no interest in it really.
Charlotte Debond-Sayer:So, sitting down with a careers advisor and I had two choices I either wanted to be a chef or I wanted to be an interior designer.
John Hawker:So what age is this?
Charlotte Debond-Sayer:This is like end of school.
John Hawker:So 14, 15 and one of the younger ones.
Charlotte Debond-Sayer:Remember that bit.
John Hawker:Anyone that's listening that knows Charlotte. She's one of the younger ones.
Charlotte Debond-Sayer:So that were my two careers and when I spoke about it with the advisor and we went through things, the actual thing I remember from it was thinking about a chef would be a lot of weekend work. I don't want to do that. At the time I was working as a Saturday going to hairdressers, so I was absolutely sick of working weekends. So, yeah, I went down the avenue of interior designer and went into college to do a BTEC in interior design.
John Hawker:Wow, that's quite a young age, isn't it? I think, when I look at what a lot of people went on to do from secondary school, college and then maybe some career path changes along the way, to know at that point that interior design is a route you want to go down and then steer yourself from an educational perspective to follow that and then we'll talk about, you obviously went into a career doing that as well for quite a significant amount of time. That's quite a young age. And I remember speaking to my brother on the podcast about I think he's one of the only people one of very few people I know that had an indication of what he wanted to do from that sort of point. So that's really interesting. So it was been person. Let's call it Very correct there. But again, that's linked making something look nice.
John Hawker:Again, it's all linking to the interior design thing slightly different canvas, let's say, but yeah, okay, cool. So I'm going to ask a bit more about the career advice that you were privy to at the time, because I think we were going through that period in our lives around the same time.
John Hawker:I think career advice was kind of a little bit 2D. So, like men, women, girls, boys, whatever we were classified as at that age, what route were we going to go down? Well, for guys it was probably finance, banking, investment, corporate world or go off and learn a trade. I don't think that's unfair to say that. But for the most part, and then in your viewpoint and your experience, what do you think was kind of like the main route you could go down or were being advised to go down at that point?
Charlotte Debond-Sayer:There was a lot of childcare. I always remember that being a big thing Beauty and that kind of PA secretary type vibe. Virtually every person I know I could put into one of those categories went off left score and done one of those and it was very much to me. Sixth form felt like quite a new thing at the time. Maybe I'm wrong with that, but I knew.
Charlotte Debond-Sayer:I definitely didn't want to go to sixth form. I wanted to be an adult. I wasn't an adult by any means. I'm not sure I still am, but the thought of staying in a school environment.
John Hawker:I actually loved school.
Charlotte Debond-Sayer:I had no issues with school, but I was so ready to just go out and explore what else there was to offer, but the advice I don't remember being particularly great.
John Hawker:Was it inspiring, was it?
Charlotte Debond-Sayer:I don't think that's ever a word that you put next to it, and I don't remember anyone ever coming into the school to tell us about things which I'd happily do. Now. I'd happily go and tell kids what they can do, and when I speak to my nieces and nephews, I think it's always about pushing. You're at a chance when you should just be brave and do a lot, whereas actually, sadly, I think a lot of kids take the safe route because they're not ready to take it. So often they do say, oh, let's just stay on that avenue because it's easy. We're not sure what we want to do.
John Hawker:I think about this because we've both got young kids and I think about what their future is going to look like and what work will even look like by the time they're having to work. But my experience with careers guidance was just so. It was, as I said, like two dimensional, uninspiring. There was no external viewpoint put in front of us. I look at the jobs that people do now I'm like if someone had told me I could do that, I would have gone down that route.
John Hawker:Not. Maybe it's a pretty basic bitch, but I did. I went and become a personal trainer out of college. That's fairly standard route.
Charlotte Debond-Sayer:Look at you now with your Lego office.
John Hawker:Exactly. Yeah, I liked to go to the gym and I thought I could make money out of it. And a lot of people, I think actually that's having a resurgence now A lot of people going back down that route.
John Hawker:Yeah, it was uninspiring for me and I want it to be very different for my kids moving forward. The reason I ask you about the career guidance and I'm glad you said I didn't want to make the statement that those careers that you mentioned there for women at the time were the routes that most people went down and we know a lot of the same people and, respectfully, we could probably categorise that as being true. But you buck the trend. I was talking to Sophie about this last night Sophie, my behalf and Charlotte's girlfriend and you were definitely a trendsetter in that you didn't go down with those routes, it was more creative path. Were you mindful of that at the time? I guess you wouldn't have even considered that you were breaking out of it.
Charlotte Debond-Sayer:No, I just thought that's what I want to do. And there was a course at Southend College that did interior design, but to be honest I was quite shocked by that. I didn't realise I'd be able to go into. I thought I'd have to do art or I'd have to do something that wasn't so focused on it. I remember going to the college to find out more about the, and this was when it was the old college, so not the nice fancy one, the fancy campus building, really, which I did move to and I did thoroughly enjoy, but the old ones and it was I just loved it.
Charlotte Debond-Sayer:You had to break. Even though it was interior design, I still had to do all of the, we still had to do maths and everything within it. However, it was so creative. You were in a studio all the time and I just thought that's great, and if you didn't turn up one day, they didn't really tell you off. So not that I did, but I loved the freedom of that. You were an adult to choose it.
Charlotte Debond-Sayer:And I think that's what I find hard with people who don't know what they want to do. I mean, I don't do that career now, so I have gone off path. However, rather than going to a college and doing just A levels where you don't really have a path, I think because I did I was so passionate about it, so I turned up to the class and I turned up and done what I needed to do, whereas maybe, if I didn't know quite what I wanted to do, I'd have no drive to get there, but I knew where I wanted to go.
Charlotte Debond-Sayer:I don't know how, but I did.
John Hawker:That's brilliant, I think, and I'll ask you about maybe what shaped that direction that you very clearly had You're basically the converse to your experience was mine. I didn't know what I wanted to do?
John Hawker:I went to college on the back of doing really well at GCSEs, like A's and B's across the board. Anyone would have said John's going to do really well at college and that freedom. I just abused it. Oh, you're not going to tell me off if I don't turn up to a lesson, when I sit in a canteen and play cards all day, or especially when we tipped 18, I was going to talk on a Thursday night. I remember going into my A level exam like being sick out of a car window.
Charlotte Debond-Sayer:That's how yeah, that's classy, isn't it but?
John Hawker:that's how I had no direction. I was doing history and all these things that I enjoyed day to day, but I didn't know what I wanted to do longer term. So I think that direction is really important, any inspiration in your life that led you down that path.
Charlotte Debond-Sayer:Yeah, so my mum is a soft furnishing and curter maker.
John Hawker:We have some curtains of your mum's in our house. You do.
Charlotte Debond-Sayer:She's very talented and very creative. So definitely mum, and then I mean my dad has been a huge influence in my life, but yeah, not from a creative but very businessman type. So yeah, I suppose from my mum it was always very creative in our house. Yeah, we had a beautiful house as well.
John Hawker:I think that helps having those creative and I'm talking from experience having creative influences around you. Like my mum to this day is still, I think, quite disappointed that I haven't followed a creative path for what I do for a living.
Charlotte Debond-Sayer:Has she seen this Lego John?
John Hawker:I know, but Lego is a little bit too. Yeah, I mean it's a bit too formulaic for my mum. If you gave her that Lego set, it would turn into like a flower pot or something. But yeah, I think having creativity around you helps breed that and maybe give you a bit more freedom to think I could make a living from doing this.
Charlotte Debond-Sayer:Yeah, and my mum worked for herself, which I think has been a big factor.
John Hawker:Yeah, and what about your dad? Did your dad work for himself? Was he self-employed there?
Charlotte Debond-Sayer:yes, my poor dad had. I'd have to ask my mum to be sure, but I think he was made redundant five or six times. But he was a sales manager, so he'd worked for various different companies and then he'd do a bit of work for himself, but he was a grafter and if he was ever out of work. He was working, painting and decorating or doing something.
Charlotte Debond-Sayer:He was hands-on Him and my mum had done up houses together, he could turn his hand to anything, which I suppose is where my attitude of I'll give it a go, it's worth it. Let me read about it, let me figure out how to do this, sometimes a bit too independent for my own good. Sometimes.
John Hawker:But it's great. I think that ethic then and that drive has obviously rubbed off and I think that's a really lovely thing. I wish I had more of that ability to be a bit more of a self-starter, to think I could do that rather than just fall to the default of I'm probably just going to pay someone.
Charlotte Debond-Sayer:Yeah, I very much dislike paying people to do something, and especially if I do pay someone and they do it badly, that's even more annoying. Oh, yeah, for sure.
John Hawker:So you do interior design at Seek. Is it called Seek there or is it out of the way? Yeah, yeah, yeah and did you then went to the University of Essex.
Charlotte Debond-Sayer:I did so college and then University of Essex. Yeah, so I always knew that's one thing. I always knew that I wanted to go to university. Very strange, no one around me had ever gone to university, but I was very like I want to go off to university.
John Hawker:What was it about it? Can you remember at the time?
Charlotte Debond-Sayer:I think I loved the idea of moving away and having that whole university lifestyle.
John Hawker:Okay.
Charlotte Debond-Sayer:I loved the idea of the independence. I don't know, and I always knew. To get anywhere into design I needed a degree.
John Hawker:The credentials of having a degree. Yeah, I didn't know enough from college.
Charlotte Debond-Sayer:College was like a real ease into it. There was so much more technical that I needed to know which was degree and at this stage I was even thinking I'd definitely do my masters. I'd definitely like. I was so into. I didn't do my master, but I definitely wanted to go to university. So finished the course at Southend and then applied for lots of different universities, went to visit them all. My poor parents took me to here there and everywhere, had in my head that I'd go to Brighton or a London university, but actually every university course is different, which is something I didn't really know until looking into that. And actually the course I liked most was at Southend.
John Hawker:Right, which kind of? Yeah, the degree of university life scuppered by, actually based on its merit? Yeah, this was the best one.
Charlotte Debond-Sayer:And equally, I think, another. That was the main factor. But, then when I weighed up pros and cons, so I would save a lot of money staying here, yep, in terms of like that student loan that went on forever, yeah, and then I could live at home, but equally, I already had jobs down here. So throughout my time working at college, I worked at Topshop in the high-ride.
Charlotte Debond-Sayer:Yeah, for a long time, and I knew that I could stay working there. And then I also got a job at Vastie, which was a very hip bar at the time.
John Hawker:Yeah, you are name dropping some places now. Yeah, okay.
Charlotte Debond-Sayer:Dancing on the bar, in all sorts, and I knew that if I stayed here then I could keep doing that and keep up with my friends who had all gone out to get jobs by this point.
John Hawker:Okay, right.
Charlotte Debond-Sayer:So I think I was the only one who went on to university.
John Hawker:Right yeah.
Charlotte Debond-Sayer:I think I'm pretty sure. Yeah, so I had to. I wanted to keep up, I wanted to go on all the things, so I was working All the holidays.
John Hawker:Yeah, all the holidays.
Charlotte Debond-Sayer:All the days out. Yeah, I continued here and stayed at home, didn't rack up as much debt and loved the course actually.
John Hawker:Out of it with the degree that you thought would be, or you hoped would be, the stepping stone you needed to get the job you wanted. Yeah, and did it prove to be what you thought it was going to be?
Charlotte Debond-Sayer:Yes, actually. So when I say into a design, a lot of people I know will still be listening and thinking that that means paint colours and textures.
John Hawker:There is definitely that stigma attached to it, isn't it? Yeah?
Charlotte Debond-Sayer:Which I was a massive fan. Yeah, yeah, yeah, loved it. Yeah, but that actually wasn't the sort of interior design I was into.
Charlotte Debond-Sayer:Okay, maybe that's what I thought originally. Yeah, loved picking paint colours. However, what I was very interested in was space planning. Okay, so very like a puzzle, really Get everything to fit, and how was the cleverest way to do that? And so, through working in Topshop, I realised I'd quite like to design these shops. So I kept you know, within that job, we'd always be moving things around. We'd always be, you know, always changing things. It wasn't about window displays and how things looked. It was just about how to move things and get the best people moving through the store and people buying and such like. So we were due to have a refurb at Topshop Southend.
Charlotte Debond-Sayer:Okay, and like a team of people come down, I thought I need to talk to these, so clocked someone at some point and said I really want to do this is what I do. I'm interior designer at college. Where do you work? Can I come and work for you? Can I do some work experience? Now, my calls that I did didn't have to have you work experience, which I really feel work experience is what everyone should be doing.
Charlotte Debond-Sayer:Get in there. You know I spent so much time getting in touch with this company. I didn't need to, but I wanted to. He eventually put me in touch with the right company and they contacted me and said, yeah, come and talk to us. So I went up to London with my portfolio. That was like meaningless at that point and I've never been so nervous in all my life, I don't think and sat there and basically begged them to give me a chance to like have a go.
Charlotte Debond-Sayer:So they took me on for free work experience. I'm not even sure if you'll have to do that anymore, but I was absolutely happy with it, and they even said they'd pay my train fare.
Charlotte Debond-Sayer:So it was static and I'd done it for about a month, I think, and so took the time off college a university at this time and done a month with them off my own back, and I basically spent a month reorganizing their filing system. But I got exposure to what a company does. They took me to the odd meeting that they knew they could get away with.
John Hawker:Okay, client meetings.
Charlotte Debond-Sayer:I just had to sit there and be quiet. But they, the company was retail design, so it was lots of tops. They worked for the whole Arcadia clientele. So all of those brands, along with lots of others, and I loved it. I loved the people there. I absolutely loved it. So that was a month, went back to university, stayed in contact with them because I'd like you know, gone with them. The day I finished university, they offered me a job to go with it. So then I went to work there.
John Hawker:And this is a. This is a bro, this is a bro, yeah, yeah, so I went to work for them.
Charlotte Debond-Sayer:I think I'm pretty sure I started with them on my 21st birthday, so just after finishing uni, and I remember not telling them because I didn't want to make fuss about it being my birthday. And then they found out and it was like really cringy, but yeah, I started work for them. So it was like I got the. It was the dream I want. That was the career I wanted that was a company I wanted to work for and I couldn't believe I'd suddenly landed there.
John Hawker:You've gone from 1415, kind of falling on interior design as a, as a path that you wanted to go down. You kind of made that your direction, your North Star, and then you've out fresh out of uni university with a, with a job from them, and it sounds like you went about it like in a really pragmatic and proactive way. Yeah, you say you lack your. You lacked confidence going to the interview and everything. It takes some confidence to go up to someone and say I'd like to be doing what you're doing.
John Hawker:So, is it? I mean, you've got back yourself in that way. It was a while ago, let's say. But do you remember being nervous about making that initial approach and saying I'd love to be doing what you're doing?
Charlotte Debond-Sayer:Yeah, but I knew that was my only chance. Not my only chance, but I knew that window was there and I think that's still how I live to this day that I think I'll just ask what's the worst that can happen, that all that person to do is say no.
John Hawker:Yeah.
Charlotte Debond-Sayer:And actually most people. If someone came up to me today and asked for work experience and had like the right you know reason to be like come on, then I don't think you can do it as easily as you used to be able to do them.
John Hawker:But I don't know.
Charlotte Debond-Sayer:Yeah, they took a chance on me and it was great. Yeah and, interestingly, when they did take me on, I will say this fact. So they did. I did go up there for an interview actually, so maybe I'm going to backtrack on that a little bit. It didn't just get given a job, I did go up for an interview. However, they said to me afterwards you weren't the best person for the job.
John Hawker:Okay.
Charlotte Debond-Sayer:But we like you the most Right. And we know we can train you, okay. So I think from that, people had better portfolios than me and maybe were stronger at things. However, they were prepared to take a chance on me due to that. I'd worked with them before they knew I was eager and it worked because I then worked with them.
John Hawker:Amazing. It goes a long way, doesn't it? I think the people fit culture. I took about culture fit all the time, but I think that that should play as an important part in hiring decisions as someone having a really strong portfolio.
Charlotte Debond-Sayer:Definitely, and my time at Zebra that was always what I was shouting about when we were hiring was let's get someone who fits. The team was. We were like it's a massive company and they still are.
Charlotte Debond-Sayer:They're doing very well today, but they, we were small really in the office and if you put someone in that doesn't fit it can ruin the whole way you work and how you then look to clients and how, actually, if you get the right fit, you can teach them a lot. Yeah, so yeah, that was a big thing that I always and now still in my own business that is about getting the right fit.
John Hawker:Yeah, because I think holistically all the puzzle pieces need to come together and I always say when I'm advising my clients you don't need clones of other people but you need needs to complement each other and if you have someone that, and I guess in your, in that line of work, you're going to get some people that you know. I think creatives again, stigma attached to creative people there's just a whole spectrum.
Charlotte Debond-Sayer:let's say such a massive. Yeah, definitely, You've got really creative which can't do anything more.
John Hawker:Project based and using I'm a creative as an excuse for why they can't do that is is fine, but maybe not in a setup where actually we've got deadlines, we've got stakeholders, we've got people paying our budgets or these things is not ideal.
Charlotte Debond-Sayer:And if you're doing what we done retail design you're just moving that design into other spaces. It's not going to be new every time. So it was a lot more just planning spaces rather than like designing, as in changing things.
John Hawker:Understood. Okay, I was going to ask you a question based on your actual experience of doing that month. So two things on that. If a work placement wasn't part of your degree, how did you do that? Was that in the summer?
Charlotte Debond-Sayer:No, I just said I'm going to do this.
John Hawker:That's amazing Okay.
Charlotte Debond-Sayer:That's the thing about uni is it's your learning right. It's more, even more so than college. I would say.
John Hawker:Yeah, so college. I didn't go to uni, but I've heard that.
Charlotte Debond-Sayer:So you're paying for it, yeah, so if you don't go, that's your loss. I remember saying to my parents I really want to do this and they were like, yeah, definitely go and do it. So I just had to take time off. I think a little bit of it was over some holidays. Right, and then the rest was just out and I just had to catch up.
John Hawker:Cool, Okay. Well, that's amazing. Just again that quality, and you'd say I'm going to do this. I think, that's great and probably a good lesson for a lot of people, like if the course you're doing doesn't require you to do a placement in industry, then actually that's going to be a really powerful thing, both for knowledge and experience, but also the opportunities that can give you a really good idea.
Charlotte Debond-Sayer:Yeah, I definitely think, to see what the real world was like, because it's very silent. It can always seem so glamorous Because actually it's just like we didn't even have a very creative office. It was quite dingy and I was like I actually loved the job. So you know, I could suck that up.
John Hawker:So in your experience, though in the month that you're doing it, a lot of back office, a lot of admin, a lot of filing stuff. I this is where I think I'm going to say I'm really old. But I think generation, generationally now I don't know how many people at university age that would go to do something like that, have that experience and still be enthusiastic to go into it. I don't know. Agree, yeah.
Charlotte Debond-Sayer:It's changed, hasn't it? Yeah, I think definitely now people would expect to be doing the glamour and not doing the.
John Hawker:And probably wouldn't last the month if they felt like they were doing. The first week we spent filing back office.
Charlotte Debond-Sayer:make the teas yeah, I made a lot of tea in that time and carried on making a lot of tea when I went back there. Maybe that's why they hired me. Maybe I was really good at making tea, but you weren't like.
John Hawker:I think that was a socially acceptable thing. You earn your stripes when I started in recruitment. All I did, if any time, make cup of tea, all right, yeah Well, I'm busy all the time they were all sweating for deadlines and I was just filing and yeah, but I was learning all the time.
Charlotte Debond-Sayer:If they would give me an opportunity, I would jump on it. If they would say do you want to come along to this meeting? Yep, okay, yeah. You want to. You know, can you do anything they'd offer me? I wanted to learn it.
John Hawker:I wanted to get it as quick as I could. Again, that kind of lends itself to this narrative. That sounds like quite a glib thing to say, but saying yes and grabbing opportunities is still really powerful. Like so many people go. Well, you're lucky if you get those opportunities, but half of it is you've said yes to one previously. That leads you to that one.
Charlotte Debond-Sayer:My whole career is from very random yeses along the way. I would say.
John Hawker:Yeah, I think it's brilliant. So when you start as Ebra in your mind, you know you've made it in terms of you've got to a job that you wanted to do Do you see when you start as Ebra? This is the least industry I'm going to be in forever.
Charlotte Debond-Sayer:Yeah, and sadly, I was thinking this company is where I am forever. Wow, I was obsessed.
John Hawker:I loved what I was doing. I thought, I could see people doing the job that.
Charlotte Debond-Sayer:I wanted to do so. I was like a junior. Then I actually got whilst being a junior and I don't know this might not be on my LinkedIn and things I actually got made redundant from there.
John Hawker:Right, I did see a gap, yeah, so in 2009,.
Charlotte Debond-Sayer:I got made redundant from there, so I hadn't even been there long.
John Hawker:Okay.
Charlotte Debond-Sayer:But it was the financial crisis, wasn't it?
John Hawker:I've heard there was one man there, not that I would have been privy to it at that time. Okay, so yeah, bad it was.
Charlotte Debond-Sayer:We lost all our work and everything and they were clever and they were really honest with it and they said we've got to strip this company right down. And I begged to keep my job because I thought this is, I've got no chance. These people will go out and get jobs because they'll go for lower paid jobs. I'm at the bottom, I can't go. They're not going to take me on to do a higher role when they can get someone who's already from a higher position willing to take.
John Hawker:Because they're losing it.
Charlotte Debond-Sayer:They're losing their homes. They're losing you know, they've got families. I'm just 22, living at home with my parents. I can go and pick up a job doing something else.
Charlotte Debond-Sayer:And I even remember emailing my boss at the time, just a really begging email to stay saying, look, I'll even work on the, you know, even a reduced salary, or I would work less days, because I thought if this comes off my CV, I'm not going back out here, I'm not getting back in. They wouldn't accept it, which I think is a good thing. They didn't. You know. They were like come on, charlotte, that's not real, we need to. We haven't even got work to give you, even if you stay. They always said they'd keep in touch, which they did, thankfully. I was very good friends with one of my old tutors from college. He was great, incredible he is, and he's been creative director for many companies. Now he left the teaching and he was nearly maybe he was sorry, dan if I'm getting this wrong but creative director for Universal.
Charlotte Debond-Sayer:Oh, wow, yeah, and he managed to get me a job. Yeah, Because we were good friends and he helped me out. So during my gap from Zebra, I was working at the back of varsity begging for my job back, worked at various nightclubs and whatever else. I think I even went back to top shop for a little bit. But I went to work for him and it was on a contract to design a flat in Cairns for the MIPCOM.
John Hawker:Oh, my goodness.
Charlotte Debond-Sayer:Yeah, so they would have after parties at a flat. Yeah, At that time they were advertising a program called Haven which I think even like ran for quite a few series based on a Stephen King novel thing. So I had to design the flat for the after party, which had to have like props, way out of my comfort zone.
John Hawker:What a brief though.
Charlotte Debond-Sayer:Yeah.
John Hawker:Like, did you feel like you'd landed on your feet at that point?
Charlotte Debond-Sayer:Yeah, but I'll be honest, had no idea what I was doing. Okay. So I had to plan a party, not that I was going to say but I had to plan a party for a load of like few celebrities at that time in those programs. Yeah, and a load of big wigs from TV companies Wow. But I had to be as part of these programs.
John Hawker:Right.
Charlotte Debond-Sayer:So that's what I did for a little while. I think it was about six months, went out to Cairns for the party. Yeah, it's like a whole blur. And it's incredible, but it kept me going in my design years.
John Hawker:Yeah, because there's a, as you say, the fear is that you're going to be out in the cold. Who's going to want to take you on? Very little experience. You've got other people that are being letting go, probably in that industry, in droves. And as you say, willing to take kits to pay for maybe slightly more responsibilities at that time.
Charlotte Debond-Sayer:Yeah.
John Hawker:So that's amazing. That's incredible. I never knew that. What a brief, what a brief to be given.
Charlotte Debond-Sayer:Yeah, I'd be a bit scary. I'd imagine when you get it, we turned like the swimming pool red to look like blood. We had like proper designers making things. It was like a photo booth of all rocks and stuff and we had loads of photos in it.
John Hawker:Yeah, it's a bit of a blur.
Charlotte Debond-Sayer:now we had a crime scene, because it was like a crime drama.
John Hawker:Yeah, yeah.
Charlotte Debond-Sayer:Crazy, absolutely crazy.
John Hawker:That's amazing. So go on then. That's a hiatus from Zebra. Yeah, how did they come back ground? What happened I?
Charlotte Debond-Sayer:kept going. I didn't leave him alone, so I would email them. Can I come up? Should we go out for lunch, because we were friends by that point?
John Hawker:Yeah, you're not just stalking them, yeah.
Charlotte Debond-Sayer:And Glenn, my director at that time, who I still love to be, is he, and he was the one who gave me all these leg ups, I would say.
John Hawker:Okay.
Charlotte Debond-Sayer:He got me back in. I worked on a different client so I went back in to work on Tesco's on a temporary contract because they had a bit of work coming, so that was 2011. Yeah, and then I just I was on like a contract, so I'd be like three months. They'd extend it for another three months and I'd be like come on.
John Hawker:Yeah.
Charlotte Debond-Sayer:And then eventually got back in and then little while later became a design manager of Arcadia, which was what I wanted the whole time. So back on my client and at that point started traveling with them, which was where what I loved. So my main role was designing Topshop, topman and all the other Arcadia brands around the world.
John Hawker:So I went to like 26 countries with them. Yeah, how long were you managing the Arcadia account?
Charlotte Debond-Sayer:For the whole time I was there, so virtually. So when I was back then it was like nine years, right, okay, and it just shy of 10 years, yeah, that is crazy.
John Hawker:So you've gone from. You've gone from this. This chance encounter, this opportunity that you've seen, this window of opportunity while you're working in a Topshop yeah, To have this conversation, to then be doing exactly what. You probably had the flashing image in your brain at that point. You're doing it, and doing it for a decade or thereabouts yeah. That's madness, isn't it?
Charlotte Debond-Sayer:Yeah.
John Hawker:Okay, so then we hit the point where that stops.
Charlotte Debond-Sayer:Yeah, so how did that come about? Well, there's a little bit of transition here, because so.
John Hawker:So you take me through the chronology because I think, looking at this, maybe because we're here to talk about your current business, and your current venture and what it is you do now, but I love the back story. It all builds up this really amazing foundation.
Charlotte Debond-Sayer:So in 2016, 2017 maybe.
John Hawker:Ooh, that's terrible. You look at me like I should know I'm not sure.
Charlotte Debond-Sayer:My now husband proposed, so Dane proposed and we started looking at wedding venues and, being a creative, I didn't like anywhere and always had a vision that it had to be the high standards yeah. And it had to be somewhere that I could put my stamp on it and I really wanted a really flexible space. I wanted everyone to be together and equally wanted really good food, which a lot of venues are terrible food because they can get away with it.
Charlotte Debond-Sayer:My next door neighbour, who I've grown up with, is an incredible chef and I always said if I ever got married he'd have to do the food. So we went down the avenue of getting married at a church and we would need to pop a marquee up somewhere to have our reception in, which obviously is utter madness and it gets madder.
Charlotte Debond-Sayer:So we've got a few family friends and asked them if they knew of any land I could put a marquee up in for our wedding Temporary, very temporary and one of my mum's friends my parents' friends, I suppose said yeah, I have actually, but it's a business, not just a wedding. I'll meet up, wish I don't have a chat. Anyway, just started having chats about putting a marquee up on the edge of a cricket field for my wedding. That's all I wanted.
John Hawker:Just one wedding, Clive. Who is the?
Charlotte Debond-Sayer:family friend had other ideas. It's madness, really. So I'm working at Zebra and in the background I am designing a wedding venue.
John Hawker:At this stage for your own wedding.
Charlotte Debond-Sayer:For my own wedding, knowing it would stay for more events. Wow, didn't really realise it was my business.
John Hawker:Okay, right, that's an interesting transition.
Charlotte Debond-Sayer:Yeah, I mean I'm still not sure it even makes sense. So I mean, we used to meet in the Hamlet pub, go through drawings. I had no idea how this was sort of being paid for and things like that.
Charlotte Debond-Sayer:Obviously I was paying for my wedding but, there was parts of it which I was thinking, well, I don't need to pay, I don't need that for my wedding. Anyway, as the conversations went on, my friend Jack, who is my business partner, was travelling with his now wife and it was his dad who was kind of helping us with the meetings and he's an accountant, so he was kind of like overseeing it.
Charlotte Debond-Sayer:And basically there was a maybe I've just forgotten the conversations, but Clive and Ian were meeting about this with me and the idea was that it would become me and Jack's business Right, so we had some financial backing from family friends.
John Hawker:Yeah.
Charlotte Debond-Sayer:Jack, basically landed on a plane, was told this idea and do you want to go for it, yes or no? And thought, yes, we'll go for it. Yeah, we all then got together and then it was intense up until our wedding of not only like, obviously in my head, I just want my wedding to go well, but equally I'm thinking long term, which is crazy, of like oh, and how we advertise that to other people and then trying to advertise of any that wasn't even made or finished, or photos or of what happened.
John Hawker:Yeah.
Charlotte Debond-Sayer:Trusted the process.
John Hawker:Yeah.
Charlotte Debond-Sayer:It was always a side hustle to me.
John Hawker:however, at this point, Okay, because you're still doing the job of your dreams, the job that you enjoy and had no plans to give that up ever and I don't think I would have, I really don't think I would have.
Charlotte Debond-Sayer:I didn't tell Zebra that I was doing this in the background because it wasn't a conflict of interest, it wasn't anything, and I wasn't really still sure whether it was mine or not, or how it was going to work or what was going to happen. So anyway, it was just bubbled in the background and then we got married, went well. We had few more bookings after that slow, but obviously it was just. You know, that's the idea. Yeah, jack was still working at his job in London as well, so we, you know, we could fit around that, take time off when we needed to do other things.
John Hawker:Yeah.
Charlotte Debond-Sayer:And then in 2018 I had a baby no 2019 I had a baby, Got married in 2018 and then in 2019 had Nora.
John Hawker:Yeah.
Charlotte Debond-Sayer:So I was on a year maternity. Well, I never intended to take a year. Actually, I was very much like I will be off for minimal time. I want to come back. I did not want to lose my position in my job and one thing with that job was there was not any other women in the business that had young children that went back to work full time and I was adamant I was going back full time.
John Hawker:So it was almost a precedent there.
Charlotte Debond-Sayer:Yeah.
John Hawker:Anyone who had a baby was kind of then part time from then on.
Charlotte Debond-Sayer:Yeah, there wasn't many women at the top.
John Hawker:Okay.
Charlotte Debond-Sayer:And I don't want that to sound bad, but it's true.
John Hawker:It's a lot more men. If it's a fact, then it's a fact yeah.
Charlotte Debond-Sayer:So I did know that it would affect me, but I was adamant I'd make it work. Didn't know how I was going to make it work, but I did. Thankfully, dean's parents are child-minded, so that was going to help a lot and does help me a lot to this day.
Charlotte Debond-Sayer:So had all plans to go back and then during that time COVID hit. So I did not go back to whatever at that point, to going back to my job properly, because we hadn't all the clients had dried up, they weren't opening top shops, they weren't like everyone was not doing anything, there was no business. So I was put on furlough, yeah, and then eventually went back. They'd made a huge amount of redundancies and it was just I was skipping back a little bit, sorry. So I was made associate director before I'd had a baby, so I was already up there in the more senior part of the business.
Charlotte Debond-Sayer:So they'd basically made a lot of the rest of the team redundant because they had no business and it was COVID and they just had to shut down and they could sub it out to our other offices to make it work where there wasn't so many issues. And then we, you know I was still part of it and I was doing like going back one or two days a week and we were closing down our London office because it wasn't just not financially viable to keep that office. Again, I was desperate to keep my job. There was no part of me that wanted to be made redundant from that job.
John Hawker:Yeah.
Charlotte Debond-Sayer:And they'd kind of in enough ways told me that I was safe because they'd made their cuts. But things kept getting worse, right, and then I got made redundant and I was devastated, even though I had a side hustle. That side hustle was basically non-existent because COVID had hit yeah, so there was no business there. Anyway, I didn't know that that was going to become anything and I really took it hard, like that was basically my whole career.
John Hawker:How old's Nora at this stage? One One. So you've been on. You've been on that journey, which is yeah you know life changing enough, yeah, to then have like what you feel is your future completely shattered. Is it too big a thing to say like you're.
Charlotte Debond-Sayer:No, I was devastated and I took it really really hard.
John Hawker:How did that manifest itself? Is that just? I guess at that point you've got no recourse, have you? It's not like you're, you can't email them, you're not like what you did. Yeah, I can't.
Charlotte Debond-Sayer:I mean well. Interestingly, it's strange because that company was like my family and I very much. We always used to say like it's a family. I'd grown up there, I'd gone through all deals there, so in 2014 I lost my dad and they were a great comfort to me. They really looked after me. Some of my directors had gone through the same, so we all looked after each other.
John Hawker:Yeah.
Charlotte Debond-Sayer:And you know I'd grown up with them.
John Hawker:Yeah.
Charlotte Debond-Sayer:From, like they met me when I was 19. Yeah, and then I was. So how many years ago was that? I was like 32.
John Hawker:We've seen you through various milestones, haven't they? Yeah, there's a big life events losing your dad getting married. You know your daughter being born.
Charlotte Debond-Sayer:Yeah, I'm sure at that point you know, that's a huge thing yeah.
John Hawker:You are part of this. Yeah, I'll make no bones that when people say family. I think, if it's all a positive thing, that's great. So you're part of this family and they've seen you go through these, these amazing things.
Charlotte Debond-Sayer:However, I think a big learning for myself now is it wasn't and that's an illusion that a lot of companies can make you feel like to stop you getting the bigger pay rises to leave in. I felt so much comfort there.
John Hawker:Yeah.
Charlotte Debond-Sayer:That I always had to fight to be promoted or to have a pay rise, and actually that's not always right. You know, if you're doing the job and you're good at it, letting like by believing that this is such a family, you're doing it for the good, you're not. You're lining someone else's pocket. At the end of the day, yeah. And that's something I've learned now, because since being made redundant, I have not heard from them.
John Hawker:Right yeah.
Charlotte Debond-Sayer:So you go from being quite an important member of the team to them also. The redundancy didn't go quite to plan. There was money issues, there was, you know, arguments over how things should be paid and not paid, and they talked me into taking holiday. That shouldn't have happened, so it got messy it's quite self-serving from their perspective.
Charlotte Debond-Sayer:Yeah, I get it, they're a business, but for me that was heartbreaking because that wasn't what I was, the way I'd led to believe, and you've been there for 10 years, by this point, so you haven't had experience of going through that process before.
John Hawker:So I think sometimes there's a benefit in in. I think now seeing people when I'm doing career advice or giving career advice, sharing it with people that are fresh grads in their first role, I would never advise someone to stay in the same business for 10 years. It happens, don't get me wrong and I think your experience that you had up to that point is a really positive one, which is great, but you run the risk of exactly that being taken for granted, being undervalued, seeing as being institutionalised because you've only done what you've done in one organisation to.
John Hawker:So it sounds, then, like that whole decade long experience has been tarnished slightly by the way it ended.
Charlotte Debond-Sayer:Slightly, a lot whatever that is yeah.
John Hawker:Yeah, that's a real shame. The point that you made about this precedent being set that most. I think it's really important topic to just come back to. Most of the women that had babies went back part time yeah or not, or not how much? How much was it an intrinsic drive in you that you wanted to go back to work and how much was it that pressure of if I don't go, if I don't go back, I'm not going to get the progression, the development where I want to get to?
John Hawker:on my career from because that be how it's viewed.
Charlotte Debond-Sayer:Yeah, I would have always said before having a baby I'd always go back to work full time. I had no desire to. I love my kids with all my heart but and still, to this day, I have no desire to be a full time mum and not work. I'm very. I love working, I like achieving.
John Hawker:I like you know for yourself, yeah, for myself.
Charlotte Debond-Sayer:That's just what I'm driven by. So yeah, I think there was obviously both elements, but it wasn't just all, because I didn't think there was much intrinsically about you that wanted to do that I wouldn't put that on them to say that that was all driven that way.
John Hawker:Yeah, it was me.
Charlotte Debond-Sayer:I was, yeah, I loved working.
John Hawker:So I'm going to make a statement and thank you for saying that you love working and you do it for you. Because I'm going to make a statement like when I became a parent. I see this transition with a lot of friends and a lot of colleagues and they have kids and they say it's all about my kids and I don't know how honest that is half the time because, I work to provide for my family, but I also do it for me.
John Hawker:I've got very. I'm very self-centered in that I have these things that I want to achieve and the podcast is like an ego thing in a way.
John Hawker:I'm not you know, too proud to bring it up. It's something that I wanted to do. I'm not doing the podcast for my family. The podcast actually takes me away from my family sometimes and I come in and record on weekends and weeknights, but it's my intrinsic drive. I want to achieve stuff, do you? You know it doesn't seem. You seem very open and transparent enough to say I want to do it for me. Do you think it's a stigma around some parents that are just open enough to admit that?
Charlotte Debond-Sayer:Yeah and yeah. I think some people everyone will say I just need to work for my family or I want to be at home with my family. I think you've just got to do what's right for you and for me. I wouldn't be a good parent if I didn't work. Yeah, I wouldn't be that parent.
John Hawker:Because you're not fulfilling that part of yourself, are you?
Charlotte Debond-Sayer:Yeah, it wouldn't give me the fulfilment. Yeah, yeah, it doesn't give me enough of like a certain aspect, not like it couldn't give me, it's just that it work is something completely different.
John Hawker:It's for me.
Charlotte Debond-Sayer:I love you know, I don't forget. I've got a family at home, but I can just be me.
John Hawker:Yes, yeah, without dependence.
Charlotte Debond-Sayer:Yeah.
John Hawker:Like one of the first things I say to Sophie is like one of the most liberating things I've not been with my kids is just walking at a normal pace. Yeah, like, even that is a small win sometimes, but then when you come into work and yeah, you can, it's compartmentalisation, isn't it? It's being able to separate these different facets of your life. And the only reason I raise it is because I think in some circles of even close friends, I feel bad for saying that, because I know that there will be a degree of judgement not everyone, but there are pockets that would look at you and go oh, is that you know?
John Hawker:is that what you think? Yeah, and it might be frowned upon, but I think you get it in a lot of circumstances.
Charlotte Debond-Sayer:So since having the boundary, I've had quite a lot of comments made to me by just people like literally someone's auntie at a wedding or something, yeah.
John Hawker:When.
Charlotte Debond-Sayer:I've been heavily pregnant with one of my children. They're cool. You shouldn't be at work, Should you? Yeah, I'm pregnant, not ill, yeah. And I'm not doing anything to cause this baby a problem.
John Hawker:I'm just working.
Charlotte Debond-Sayer:Yeah, and I've had people who had seen me pregnant, maybe at a meeting earlier on, and then I've obviously had the baby.
Charlotte Debond-Sayer:Yeah, and they've been like oh, you're not home with your children? I think no, but they're with their dad, who is at work the other days of the week. Yeah, I'm at work today. I think it's great that actually our, our works cross over so that actually they're with a parent most of the time, maybe not both of us, but they're with one of us, or a family member, Not not. There's nothing wrong with people going to child mothers, by the way. I just mean that the way I get a man does not get that comment oh, as your kids missing you absolutely, you know, they wouldn't even mention their children, where, for a woman, you do get a lot more comments about working.
John Hawker:Yeah, I completely agree with that. I'm going to talk to you about the sort of role model and whether you're mindful of this role model part. You're playing for your daughters as well in a little bit. But because, I think it's amazing, but you'll probably be modest. So so the redundancy happens, you come to terms with you know dark place. Now we're transitioning to into the boundary side hustle, to now full time up and running. But it's your business.
Charlotte Debond-Sayer:Yeah, so we're up and running. By this point We've done quite. You know we've done events. Yeah, my, we're obviously during COVID. So that was tough because we were closed for 18 months.
Charlotte Debond-Sayer:Everything we had booked in had to move which was already a challenge to deal with people, but I don't even remember the point. But something happened that I thought right, I've got to go. How hot got this? Now I'm going to make it work and this is what was meant to happen. I don't like to say that everything happens for a reason, but you know, there's an element of you've got to trust where you're at and go with it, rather than always trying to, like force something else.
John Hawker:Understood yeah.
Charlotte Debond-Sayer:So, yeah, I put everything, then, into driving the boundary into a business which is now.
John Hawker:what an incredible achievement and I guess so much of the skills and experience you picked up. There's so many crossovers, so much was transferable.
Charlotte Debond-Sayer:Yeah, yeah, so much I do today in my day to day. I've learned from past things that I've done. So, either through zebra, in like a management point of view of managing a project, managing something to happen, managing people as well, From even my early days in top shop and things like that. I've just customer service and dealing with so many emotions of people.
John Hawker:I was going to say yeah.
Charlotte Debond-Sayer:Wow, but somehow I can do it, and that's I can work with these people and I find it enjoyable.
John Hawker:What's the biggest learning curve for you? What's the one thing that your time at zebra, your time at top shop, any part of your career earlier career is just didn't prepare you for?
Charlotte Debond-Sayer:Balance of running your own business Right yeah.
John Hawker:It's funny enough. That's going to be one next point. Yeah, okay so at zebra.
Charlotte Debond-Sayer:I would always work long hours for no, you don't get overtime in those sort of businesses, right? So there's an element, though you go home at the weekend and you do get a weekend, yeah. You might think about a project of something, but it's obviously there's an element that it's not fully your responsibility as if it's for a company yeah, true, yeah, whereas when you work for yourself, your brain never, ever turns off.
Charlotte Debond-Sayer:It's so full on which is an element that I do love and something that I did want to bring up on this that I think one of the best things I've found out though I really enjoy it is sort of collaboration and working with people I already know. And there's always like oh well, that could be a thing. What could we do together? Something that a lot of people hate about living around here is that everyone knows everyone. I love it because I just think, well, that's just another connection to get you somewhere.
John Hawker:Yeah.
Charlotte Debond-Sayer:So I love that part of it. But it means I can't go out for dinner without seeing someone and thinking, oh, yeah, I should talk to them about that. Or, you know, I pop into a coffee shop and I see someone and I think, oh, that's someone I should talk to.
John Hawker:The next idea is coming into your head, yeah.
Charlotte Debond-Sayer:But it never stops. And that's you know. The emails keep coming, the calls keep coming. Yeah, there's an event on, it's always happening.
John Hawker:And did you have a perception of what getting a balance might be like when you did start doing it? Did you think there's this glamourized view of running your own business? Isn't there, and probably even more so in the kind of world that you're operating in, this glamourized view of. I'm a business owner, I'm running this. You know very successful events venue and you know this is all smooth sailing, but actually you know how did it weigh up? Were you quite a realist in seeing the challenges that might present themselves anyway?
Charlotte Debond-Sayer:Yeah, I mean, I've always been used to doing a lot and I think, like, even when I first worked at Zebra, I always had another job.
John Hawker:I was always, you know, always going to go From what you said, it sounds like you're used to spinning some plates, definitely.
Charlotte Debond-Sayer:So I'm used to that. I'm used to just trying to get everything done. I don't think I ever realized it would be this intense. However, I try to see the beauty in it all the time Because I could make, I could just put the kids to a child mind and have more time to work, and then maybe I'd have more downtime. However, because I want to try and do the school drop-off, not have my kids always like I like to see them and spend time with them, that's the sacrifice I've decided to make. So I do work evenings, I do my work weekends, but it's so that I can do what I want in the week.
Charlotte Debond-Sayer:So I have found my balance, I think.
John Hawker:I've still got to work on it.
Charlotte Debond-Sayer:There's still always room for improvement.
John Hawker:It evolves, doesn't it as well, I think over time, yeah.
Charlotte Debond-Sayer:But I'm learning to see the beauty in what I'm doing. I mean half term coming up and knowing I can just say I'm unavailable. That week is amazing.
John Hawker:When.
Charlotte Debond-Sayer:I can see other friends struggling with how on earth I'm going to get childcare for them for a week when I've got to work or I've got to take holiday. That's just, it's mean.
John Hawker:I completely agree. Yeah, I mean I sometimes I'm moan about work and the stresses, but then I think actually work life balance is a huge thing for me. It's why I set up the business in the first place, so I'd have a better one, and if I zoomed in on a week it's so much worse.
Charlotte Debond-Sayer:If.
John Hawker:I zoomed out and looked over maybe a month for a three month period. Well, actually I've got so much more autonomy than I've ever had to do what I want to do and having children that's really important. It would be so hard to give it up now. I could never see myself going back to that traditional employment of being managed and being told oh can you sign off on my holiday.
Charlotte Debond-Sayer:I know ridiculous.
John Hawker:And that's people's reality day to day. Yeah, exactly, but for me.
Charlotte Debond-Sayer:I just can't feel that I could go back to everything, so I might make a decision on that week of how that week needs to change. Yes, and I can do that.
John Hawker:And it's your, it's your decision to make.
Charlotte Debond-Sayer:Yeah.
John Hawker:I think that's the sacrifice, though, isn't it Like we are making? We sacrifice certain elements of it to get others.
Charlotte Debond-Sayer:Yeah.
John Hawker:And yeah, I don't know, the perception versus reality is very different. But ultimately and you also like you could get another job in design you could get another job doing what you were doing with Zebra. But, you've chosen now to embrace this. Yeah, I feel like with all the shit that comes with it, all the stress and everything else I just like having all my friends there for a party.
Charlotte Debond-Sayer:No, I like. I get so much more fulfillment in this job than I ever have in Zebra. And that's nothing against Zebra, I just maybe I didn't really realize who I was.
Charlotte Debond-Sayer:I think, I was obviously trying to break some things at that time. It wasn't everything I wanted, but I thought it was. Whereas now I love the excitement, so I'd finish a project at Zebra and get a slight bit of oh, and then another one would land on your desk. Whereas every wedding, every event, from a small corporate meeting to a massive wedding, I get the same buzz knowing when I get that review through saying how amazing they've had.
Charlotte Debond-Sayer:And you know, some people this is the biggest day of their lives, gotcha, I'm so happy that we can help with that.
John Hawker:Yeah.
Charlotte Debond-Sayer:And it's yeah, that bit I can't.
John Hawker:And it's that really tangible part that you've played in that whole experience for that, for that couple, or talk to me a little bit, because I know you diversified slightly was in your head. Was it always weddings? Was it a wedding venue rather than a more broadly an events venue, or was events something that came sort of an evolution? Of how you could maybe make the most of that space.
Charlotte Debond-Sayer:Really no it was always to be a flexible venue. Okay, yeah, so the land it's on which we rent off of is a community interest company so it's a trust, so there's no one profiting at the top of all of this as such.
Charlotte Debond-Sayer:So it was. We do have to do a lot of things throughout the year for charities. We do a lot of giving back, which makes it all feel better anyway. So, yeah, it was always going to be different stuff and we have done so many different things. Sometimes we just laugh when things come in because we're like okay, weddings one day and vegan fairs the next, like we've literally done it.
John Hawker:It's diverse.
Charlotte Debond-Sayer:Yeah, and I absolutely love it though, because I just think if we can be a space locally that can help the community, then that's great. I want to be a community project rather than a big, like everyone always says. Weddings have got so much money attached to them. We're actually very reasonable on things, so it's more about we want to help people then.
John Hawker:Yeah, yeah, understood. I think the whole community thing and seeing the work that you do impact local communities really important, especially around here, and one of the last questions I'm going to ask you is around Lee and Southend, but we're not going to jump the gun and do that, but that's a really good thing. I think that's what keeps you engaged for longer, thinking about the impact you're having beyond just revenue generation and money coming in and how much you're taking home Like you need to think of more broadly the yeah, how you're impacting the people and the community around you.
John Hawker:That's what the grounds over there.
Charlotte Debond-Sayer:So there's, it's called well-being at Garand Park.
John Hawker:Okay.
Charlotte Debond-Sayer:And there is schools that come over. There's kids that have been removed from schools. Come and do work over there. There's welcome to the UK groups over there.
John Hawker:Amazing.
Charlotte Debond-Sayer:And we help with lots of these things. We've given our space to them for have their dinners. We've given space to do like when, during COVID, when they could use marquees, they used our space when we couldn't use it. So, you know as much as we can. We are made to get involved with this whether we like it or not, but we're very happy to get involved. It makes us feel a lot you know better about what we're doing on day to day basis.
Charlotte Debond-Sayer:So the whole grounds over there are really interesting, for what else can be happening?
John Hawker:I mean, I've only ever gone to that part of the venue when there is a wedding and I've been to a few weddings now.
Charlotte Debond-Sayer:A lovely venue, clocking in as a regular, exactly.
John Hawker:Yeah, I never get one of those cards that you can stamp though when that's coming. But you can see there's a real investment. It is a very like a community feel to it and I know there's the allotment patches and the gardens there as well, which is amazing. Yeah, when you see that continued investment in there's some tree planting out coming out.
Charlotte Debond-Sayer:You love a bit of gardening, right? I do. Yeah, brilliant, all right, why?
John Hawker:not. Yeah, I love that. I put a call to action out on here as well. See if we can get some numbers. I'm going to talk to you about wedding, the wedding industry, because I know it's. I know it's a sort of multi event venue.
Charlotte Debond-Sayer:Yeah.
John Hawker:But weddings, they've got this obviously very clear perception that it's high pressure, high emotion. You know, as you said, this is things cross. The only time that people are going to go through this experience about how do you deal. Do you deal and then, how do you deal with that heightened emotion? And have you got any anecdotes from having to deal with particular Do you know what?
Charlotte Debond-Sayer:I do think we attract a different type of bride.
John Hawker:OK, and groom, yeah, put it out there yeah.
Charlotte Debond-Sayer:I've had a groomsilla, one of our friends.
John Hawker:I'm only joking, I'm just my mind's racing. All right, yeah, I could think of that. Yeah.
Charlotte Debond-Sayer:Well, it's not Dexter, and it's not.
John Hawker:We're starting on a little bit.
Charlotte Debond-Sayer:No, I'm only playing Shane. So yeah, no, I think we attract people who understand we're slightly different. I'm not saying we're mega alternative, we are just a way more relaxed vibe.
John Hawker:OK.
Charlotte Debond-Sayer:So, yeah, there is emotions and things that come with weddings, but I don't feel like we get a lot of it. We get a bit of the worry at the end, like the couple of weeks before anyone's wedding. That's why my summer is so intense, because that's when the mate I try and do a lot of the prep work before then, so I'm having final meetings with people a lot earlier. However, there's going to be that worry in the lead up and that's when my inbox goes crazy, my phone goes crazy and I just have to keep calm because if I react to anything, it will only make things worse.
John Hawker:Yeah, ok.
Charlotte Debond-Sayer:I don't know how I'm good at dealing with people, but I am somehow, I think. I mean, all my reviews say that I'm great at it, but somehow I can just keep the situation calm. My dad was that person like he was very calm in any situation. Yeah, and thankfully, I think that's the trait that I've got from him. Yeah, so, even though I might not, I might not be feeling that inside. Yeah, externally I can make, hopefully make a lot of other people feel calm around me.
John Hawker:OK, I don't know if that answers it, but I just think we don't get those brides and grooms and I think that's brilliant from you and a personal level. That's what a great experience to have had thus far as well, and I hope it continues for you.
John Hawker:Yeah, that's yeah, that is really good to hear. And, yeah, my experience of ever being around you when you are literally running around those events or driving a golf cart round with people on the back of it trying to get to different parts of that venue yeah, you always like a vision of calm, so that's good, even if internally you're going mad inside. Exactly.
Charlotte Debond-Sayer:Yeah.
John Hawker:Exactly how did? Ok, so you come from. I'm going to backtrack slightly. So, zebra, you had one version of what maybe success at life for you then, and in terms of career paths, you'd hit it. You success, I guess, higher up the rung to go, or higher up the rungs up the ladder to climb, but you're on that path to what you would have said was success.
Charlotte Debond-Sayer:Yeah, I was hitting every goal that I wanted. I wanted to be associate director. I would, I was gunning for director yeah, which is silly, because now when I look back, box checking wouldn't be my thing, but at the time that was what I wanted and that's the way I could see myself growing was I want to be the next thing.
John Hawker:Yeah, so the question I was going to ask you, and it's quite broad, but how is your definition of what success looks like now changed?
Charlotte Debond-Sayer:Definitely changed, so then it was a title.
John Hawker:Yeah.
Charlotte Debond-Sayer:And a salary. Oh, I bet you see this all the time, so that's why I could search you. Yeah, I just wanted the next biggest salary and the next title I could have and the stuff that come with it. I did love my job, I must say I really enjoy what I definitely come across yeah. So it wasn't just for that, but you know, I believed in what I was doing. However, now you know, I find it odd to say to people I own a wedding venue or own an events venue to me?
John Hawker:I don't, I don't know.
Charlotte Debond-Sayer:I do get a bit of imposter syndrome. Yeah, not sure what I mean, feel that but. But success now is knowing that I'm comfortable. I've been able to create something that I can earn money from.
John Hawker:Yeah.
Charlotte Debond-Sayer:But I enjoy it. Like the enjoyment I thought I enjoyed my past job. I love this job.
John Hawker:Yeah.
Charlotte Debond-Sayer:There is bit something, oh God. But again, yeah, I'm learning, and this year is going to be that year, more so that I just need to give away the bits I don't enjoy doing. Yeah, delegation, you can't do it all and obviously I think when you create a company you have to hold it all. And I do think that's a really important, but you need to learn to do everything before you can give it up, in a way, because then you understand why yeah.
John Hawker:The why's?
Charlotte Debond-Sayer:But yeah, just we just need to. We're big enough now that we can start Taking bits out and give into other people and employing people to do that, or and are you comfortable with the outsourcing of that or the delegation of that? Yeah, because I'm just going to people I know through connections.
John Hawker:So people that you can trust, people that are recommended to you yeah, yeah, a lot of it come.
Charlotte Debond-Sayer:Like I said earlier, I absolutely love collaborating with people or you know, working with someone that I have worked, you know, I know or I think the connection is lovely If you're someone you know, if you're giving that work to. I feel so much more comfortable to If I'm gonna spend my money. Whilst I want the best, don't get me wrong. Equally, I think if that's someone you know, it's even better at someone else near you is getting the money.
John Hawker:There's a mutual benefit to it beyond just the transaction of money too. I'm gonna ask you is it ever backfired? No, not to this day. That's amazing. That's really lovely as well.
Charlotte Debond-Sayer:Yeah, I mean like half the people that work well, actually Basically everyone that works for us. If there is connection.
Charlotte Debond-Sayer:Yeah, we don't get many people that we're like oh, they just sent in a CV Even one girl I laugh at because it was just a CV sent in. She came in to have an interview with me. Well, it was very casual chat, don't get me wrong, and as we're chatting I was in Denise, who's my sister-in-law who works with us, walked out from out the back and she was like oh hi, olivia, I knew her. Then she went to church with her dad or something.
Charlotte Debond-Sayer:Right and I thought this is so small, but I love that because, everyone who's, and you get much in In terms of like work on the ground. When we're doing an event, because we all know each other and because it's pretty much family and friends, the work I get out of people is better than just a contractor who has never worked with us. Yeah, because they can see why we're doing it.
John Hawker:Yeah, they combine into that vision and it's a bit of a shared mission as opposed to someone that's a bit more mercenary. Yeah, I'm here for a night, couple of nights, I'm gonna get a paycheck and then bugger off.
Charlotte Debond-Sayer:Yeah, and they want like they all enjoy it. We, you know they get a good dinner out of it. Yeah we look after them, that's a key thing that I really want, like I'm a big believer in yeah, I'm back to my past jobs where I've worked for bigger job, like bigger companies, that whole, like you know, like a very small bonus when you know that that company's made a lot of money. Yeah yeah can feel so why I didn't leave at some of those points.
Charlotte Debond-Sayer:You know I'm still questioning. However, now I like to. If we're doing well, you know we'll make sure the stuff get an extra bit at the end, or we took them all out for a Christmas party and we all had a lovely time.
John Hawker:Yeah.
Charlotte Debond-Sayer:I want to do that for them because, they're helping us. We couldn't do it without them. Hmm and I don't want to forget that at any point to line my own pockets.
John Hawker:Yeah, it's brilliant. I was about to say it's very sort of progressive way of thinking, but I Don't that that kind of infers that it hasn't been Something that business leaders or people that manage people thought about before. I think it's becoming more commonplace and also you understand that by treating people like that you're gonna keep them happy and hopefully they'll keep coming back and wanting to work for you and and Hmm, deliver in a way that does feel like it's more than just I'm working for a paycheck, because I've been to speaking specifically about Weddings. You've been to weddings where you know you're being served by. People are just so Dispondent and so disconnected from from the event. Yeah, they could be anywhere. They could be chucking your food down wherever you are, you know.
Charlotte Debond-Sayer:So yeah, We've never had that touch wood response. I think everyone does feel that we're quite Family vibe it appears.
John Hawker:I like to work in a family environment, yeah and for all the, for all the Really positive and, I'd argue, the right reasons too, because there are some negative connotations that come from, as you said the family side of things.
John Hawker:Okay, what is your vision? Then you talked to you, mentioned something there. It was a kind of site like a side note that you said, like especially this year with delegation and everything for you. Is that because you've got particular plans? Is it because you have got you know what's the evolution like for the boundary moving forward? Are you happy where you are in terms of the, the direction of businesses?
Charlotte Debond-Sayer:Yeah, the direction we're really pleased with yeah. You know we've got room to get bigger and busy now, but we need stuff and stuff to back us. So, yes, why we need to keep them unhappy. Yeah, I feel like we need a couple of years to just Enjoy where we're at a little bit, without too much heaviness on us, both myself and Jack, my business partner. We've got young families.
John Hawker:Yeah.
Charlotte Debond-Sayer:So I suppose there's an element of not going too hard, because we we want to find that balance of not working every single weekend and Breaking ourselves on like 18 hour shifts every day.
John Hawker:Yeah, you want, you want something to to give you family when you get home.
Charlotte Debond-Sayer:Yeah, yeah but um, no great in the in the smoke, like I would say. This year is like a small lookout, but in the next, you know five years just to continue what we're doing. Really. But where we can, we love the more we do a lot of charity work, like having a lot of charities come in. Those ones are a bit more feel-good factor.
John Hawker:I love doing the weddings and I love being part of those people's big days.
Charlotte Debond-Sayer:But yeah, I suppose just turning our hand to lots of different things and seeing where that takes us. But yeah, just more of it.
John Hawker:Yeah, it's just such a versatile space as well. And and, and I think putting it out there as a venue that can be used in so many other different weird and wonderful ways and then just I'm doing a close.
John Hawker:Just a wedding venue, I think is really important. It's been a mate. It's been absolutely amazing to see it grow and you are literally a force of nature. When, when you are in that wedding venue and I'm seeing you manage your day like a conductor, I'm like shit, there is no way that I would have the fortitude and the discipline to do all of that stuff. So it is inspiring. It really is. And I have to ask about your daughters and and just I'm gonna ask you this question See what leaves? Are you mindful of this? This, the role model that you are for your daughters, and is that something that you feel is important? Is there a behavior, is there an approach to work that you want to role model for them?
Charlotte Debond-Sayer:Yeah moving forward, yeah so I, my parents, always work Both of them. My mom's always sort of had her own business, from what I remember. She does tell me she's had jobs before then. But she could always pick us up from school. She could always attend everything. She could always schedule her day around us. Yeah so I think really I have always aspired to have that myself. Yeah, it's not always possible, don't be wrong, but majority of the time I can be there for everything.
John Hawker:That's a, that's a version of what work life balance looks like for you.
Charlotte Debond-Sayer:Yeah, yeah and, but I've always been taught to work. I don't feel like it was heavily pushed on me, but I have always worked. I've had a Saturday job since I was 14. I've always had a side hustle. At one point I was making blinkinies that Soph might have told you about.
John Hawker:Sophie mentioned this last night when I was doing the prep and I was gonna raise it, but I'm glad you have. Yeah, wow, what okay? Did that last long?
Charlotte Debond-Sayer:That helped me buy my house the money I raised from doing that. So I would sit up at night making these big bikinis. My dad even ended up helping me a few times, which is hilarious. My mum did help, naturally, but my dad would be like that watch. What can I do to you know, you've got five or so. Basically bedazzling bikinis, yeah, and I and then the only way is s6 start buying them.
John Hawker:You are joking, no, yes, I think going to this amount of detail, wow All those times in my bar and she never war.
Charlotte Debond-Sayer:Um, yeah, you know they weren't my vibe, but they were selling and that was great.
John Hawker:So that entrepreneurial spirit in you is always Burning forever, which is mad.
Charlotte Debond-Sayer:I don't know where it's come from, but yeah, I've always wanted to have a business and yeah that worked for myself.
Charlotte Debond-Sayer:But with the kids I would love you know. What I want them to think is they don't have to go down any Sort of career path if they don't want to. I think if you do put your mind something and you believe in it, you can do it. You don't. I've never had like huge back in when we did the boundary we did have people investing us, but you know you don't. I think sometimes it can always seem too far fetched to do something on your own.
Charlotte Debond-Sayer:Yeah and I don't think you. Sometimes it's just actually sheer determination, but you have to put the work in. Yeah, it doesn't come easy.
John Hawker:Yeah, which is?
Charlotte Debond-Sayer:sadly, a lot of people think they can just open up business and business it's a romanticized view that a lot of people have a bit, I think. I can't tell you how many people have said to me in all the years that how lucky I am. Yeah, I think oh, there's not much luck in this.
Charlotte Debond-Sayer:It's like I know it's not a new thing of people say this, but the amount of times that people have said to me that You're lucky, I think what bit is that lucky? Because the only reason I've done all of this is because I've done it. Yeah, you know, I'm not looking that okay, I might have had a few like crossovers which have helped, but definitely not luck.
John Hawker:Yeah, you're the architect.
Charlotte Debond-Sayer:Yeah, it didn't fall on my lap. I'd like them to be able to do whatever they like to do. I won't give them everything. That's something me and Dean are quite both focused on. That you know we want them. I think if you learn to work at a young age, they're already working there for no yeah. If they were, if they know to work, then Then they're prepared to do it something, because I think, yeah, a lot of kids these days are just not prepared to work, which is sad they think it all come.
Charlotte Debond-Sayer:You know, they see too much on social media that they think just happens. Yes and that they can just be like all that's an aspiration now as well.
John Hawker:Yeah, exactly, the influencer thing is a career path for so many.
Charlotte Debond-Sayer:Yeah, so I just hope that they do something with their lives that they want to do and they're happy with. Yeah, whatever that may be, they might want to go over the business, wonder.
John Hawker:Yeah.
Charlotte Debond-Sayer:I've learned that be running around there.
John Hawker:Whatever?
Charlotte Debond-Sayer:that is that and when that is. But um, yeah, they see me working a lot. They know mommy goes off to work, nora says has started signs me recently. Mommy, are you the boss?
John Hawker:Yeah.
Charlotte Debond-Sayer:I say yes in all aspects in this house Business. Well, Dean's just carrying we absolutely laugh and he said Um, but yeah, she know. You know, nora has grown up in the boundary as well. So, you know she loves it over there.
Charlotte Debond-Sayer:Yeah she understands what it is. I don't. She says people go there to get married, so she knows that bit. She doesn't know what really what married is, though. So that's love. But yeah, you just want the best for them, right, and that they can have a bit of. I do hope they've got a bit. I get up and go about them, yeah.
John Hawker:Well, I think you know, if you, if you learn from what is evidenced around you, they're gonna, even if it's a small part of what you're, what you're showing every day, then I'm sure they will. There was a anecdote I read about on LinkedIn. Ironically, because it's been half my life on the bloody thing.
John Hawker:But, it was about a mom that decided she was gonna be very honest about her relationship would work to her kids. So shit this. This mom runs a business. She's got a four-year-old has to be away from home for a few nights every week and she decided, rather than making it seem like it was a bad thing, I'm gonna miss you, don't worry, I'll be back soon.
John Hawker:She said, yeah, part of what I do is is a being a mom to you and I want to look after you and I want to do the best job I can. Part of what I do is being a boss and leading other people and doing a job that I love and I really enjoy it. And she Felt that narrative was really important to get across to her kids. Yeah, and I've never. I think I get in the trap sometimes of making it seem like, oh god, yeah, I'm really sorry I've got go to work and maybe that that you have the risk then of setting that up in your yeah it's minds of that's all you're going to work is a negative thing, oh no, she knows I love going to work.
Charlotte Debond-Sayer:Yeah, that's brilliant.
John Hawker:I need to be better at that, because I make it out, but my job is hard, as hard as I want it to be, and I do make it out sometimes when I'm leaving the door and yeah, my oldest is still at the door going daddy, I'm gonna miss you. I'm really sorry I should. I have to sometimes just stop apologizing.
Charlotte Debond-Sayer:Yeah.
John Hawker:I'm here and I really enjoy it yeah and we shouldn't be ashamed of that.
Charlotte Debond-Sayer:We definitely shouldn't be ashamed of Working and yeah, and having a career, yeah, um, I think that the the net there's, a natural part of mowning about work isn't there. But really, if you didn't work, would you really enjoy that? Like, because I know I wouldn't yeah, even if. I could still have the money.
John Hawker:Yeah.
Charlotte Debond-Sayer:I know, and I know people, loads of people, everything in your mental I wouldn't enjoy, I wouldn't there's something to be said, isn't there from.
John Hawker:Actually, your mind works in a different way. Like the cliche thing is, if you won the lottery, would you still work? Yeah and you'd have to in. But maybe, maybe, whatever you do for a living, I mean it would change.
Charlotte Debond-Sayer:Yeah, I think that's what people forget. It would definitely change, yeah, but I find the buzz for success. You know the I Still get excited every time I get a book in yeah. I can't believe people have picked us. Yeah, you know I still get excited to everyone, so that's amazing.
John Hawker:Yeah, so amazing to hear Okay running theme for season two of Jobs Worth is very much of I've People start to realize this further down the lines. Well, the guest list has been curated. Like I do actually have a conscious Out of a hundred people know.
Charlotte Debond-Sayer:Thanks to everybody said no before.
John Hawker:It's definitely not like that, but and I'm speaking to people that are based in and around Lee and south end- because, I feel like just the volume of people that are either, you know, entrepreneurs, business owners, creatives in this neck of the woods is higher. Yeah than average. The concentration, I think, is very high.
Charlotte Debond-Sayer:It's exciting, isn't it?
John Hawker:So I think it is yeah, do you think so? I would infer from that that you don't think I'm mad for thinking that? No, any particular reason why that is the case?
Charlotte Debond-Sayer:No, I wish I knew.
John Hawker:This is what I'm trying to get to the bottom I don't think no.
Charlotte Debond-Sayer:What I would say is what I enjoy about it and I've obviously mentioned this a couple of times is I like Going into the Broadway Seeing someone. Oh, catch up, let's talk about this. I can actually use a person who you know Say Bex Hyde.
John Hawker:Yes, yeah, she's coming on the podcast. No, I didn't, and me on.
Charlotte Debond-Sayer:Thursday so interested. So we actually work together. So we are actually friends before any of this Yep, she used to go out on one of my neighbors years ago and then she worked at miss Selfridge. I worked at Topshop right. And then whilst at Topshop, whilst at zebra, she worked for DCK, which there was the jewelry designers for Topshop right, we linked and at that point I worked with her to design a jewelry store for that brand.
John Hawker:Amazing.
Charlotte Debond-Sayer:Liars and lovers or something like that. I can't remember, so we actually worked together there right. Since then, even through the boundary, not only has she been to a couple of weddings there. Yeah we've done bridal shoots for Havens right, and now I'm meeting her this week about social media. Oh and I love that you can Cross over so many paths with someone who is literally on my doorstep and I can see in the coffee shop, or I'll see on a dog walk, or I'll drive past, and I think I love that sort of collaboration.
John Hawker:Yeah, and I think this episode has got me that much closer to realizing what it is, and it is that I don't think. I think what is a rarity is that openness to collaborate.
John Hawker:Yeah also not always to the, to the, to the financial benefit of yourself, like you, today, every guest that's come in has given up their time and whatever time they were stressing about doing this, the forms ask people to fill out, to come in and get involved in this, and yeah there's. It's mutually reciprocal in, or mutually beneficial, I should say, in a way that you get to talk about your experience and hopefully promote something but no one has to do that. There is a degree of altruism there that is just like someone's actually put this together.
John Hawker:I'm going to fucking help them and support them in a way that I can. It isn't handing over money. I'm not expecting someone to hand money over to me, so I think that's a really that word collaboration, I think is a really lovely way to describe it.
Charlotte Debond-Sayer:I think my brain does work like that. I mean, I actually met up with Sophie yesterday and we were speaking about stuff and already my brain was like I've got to tell her about this person. I've got to tell her about this person from things she's thinking of doing. But that's the way I work with all my friends. I'm like oh, give me your flyers for this and I can. You know you do travel. I can tell my couples about honeymoons through you.
Charlotte Debond-Sayer:My brain doesn't stop with. How can I make this better for all of us? How can we all benefit and I think that's big around this area?
John Hawker:That is a thank you. Thank you for connecting the dots. I really feel like that is actually like a proper Eureka moment. 100% Is that collaboration and that willingness to go out of your way for someone to. I think that's great. Charlotte, thank you for that. I'm going to steal that completely and use that on whatever way. I wrap this up Right, we're done. Save for the closing question.
Charlotte Debond-Sayer:Yeah. So this morning I asked this mom oh no, what's she got for me? The?
John Hawker:closing question. Just for anyone that hasn't listened to the podcast before. There's a famous podcast where the closing question is left by previous guests. In this because my mom is basically the person I go to for most of my marketing ideas. My mom asked the question. I don't listen to the voice note, worryingly, so I'm going to turn the volume up and always apologize in advance. Let's see what happened. Hi, charlotte, what's the strangest, weirdest or funniest?
Charlotte Debond-Sayer:thing anyone's ever asked you to arrange for their wedding. Thanks very much.
John Hawker:Well, I said when she says thanks. Very much is, lisa, if you needed to address me.
Charlotte Debond-Sayer:Hi, lisa John's mom.
John Hawker:Can you say first off, yeah.
Charlotte Debond-Sayer:I haven't had too many strange ones, but thinking what would be the most strange to other people would probably be at one of my own friends weddings at boundary.
John Hawker:Okay.
Charlotte Debond-Sayer:Another one. I didn't think so many friends would have wanted to get married there after they got married. Had a drag queen which her mom arranged. So I wasn't sure the source of the request is interesting and I was thinking, I don't know if she's going to like this, because you've obviously you know this person.
John Hawker:Yeah, okay, right.
Charlotte Debond-Sayer:But the mom was adamant. I couldn't say anything. What makes it worse is the bride who I'm talking about is actually our accountant. No, not only that, so she's my friend primarily. She now works for us as our accountant on the side, obviously because they want to say something. Yeah, and her mom wanted a drag queen to come out through the dinner and sing a song, which was I can't remember the song now, but the one that it was based on was. It should have been me.
Charlotte Debond-Sayer:So she sort of beat up the groom with a bouquet to pretend it should have been, which obviously everyone was howling with. But yeah probably one of the weirdest, weirdest ones.
John Hawker:I think that's a great example as well, and it being the mum that's asked for that to happen and the connection there between you and your friend and thinking this is just going to crash and burn. I think that's great. Charlotte, thank you so much for coming in and for giving up a big chunk of your day before we go. How can we find out more? How can anyone listening find out more about the boundary Whether they need to go?
Charlotte Debond-Sayer:So our website, social media channels that are going to get better soon because, I think we'll look after them. Yeah, best way to get in touch If you're getting, drop us an email. You can always come down and view it. Which? Is always what I say Best thing is to to understand it is to come down and see us so you see the ground along and what's around us. It's not just a market.
John Hawker:Yes, no, definitely not, Definitely not. And what I do? I'll leave all the links to socials website in the episode description to Lovely, thank you Cool. Thank you so much. Thanks for having me Cheers. Thanks for listening to Jobs Worth. If you enjoyed this episode, please feel free to like and subscribe. You can stay connected by following me on LinkedIn for more insights on the world of work behind the scenes content and updates on upcoming episodes.
