JobsWorth

Beyond The Barbershop

• John Hawker • Season 2 • Episode 2

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When the buzz of clippers falls silent, the story of a man's journey from a dreamer to an achiever begins to echo. That's the tale of Dean Gleeson, master barber and entrepreneurial spirit behind Mengo Male Grooming, who joins us to share the trials and triumphs of melding artistry with the precision of barbering. Tracing Dean's path, we uncover how a creative youth with a flair for the arts sculpted a niche in the evolving landscape of male grooming—a tale of resilience, fatherhood, and the drive that turns challenges into opportunities.

Barbering isn't just about a quick trim; it's an evolving canvas where modern style meets traditional technique. In the heart of Leigh on Sea, Dean's hands craft more than hairstyles; they weave the fabric of a community. This episode peels back the layers of a profession that's as much about the conversations in the chair as the hair on the floor. It's an intimate look at how social media has shaped client expectations and the delicate dance between promoting self-acceptance and tapping into the desire to maintain a certain image.

But it's not all about fades and shaves; it's about the balance that every entrepreneur, parent, and individual strives to achieve. Dean opens up about the complexities of partnership in business, the struggle to maintain health amidst professional demands, and the perpetual quest for harmony between work and family. As we navigate the intricacies of growing a business without losing the personal touch, we celebrate the vibrancy of local enterprise, and the shared dream that fuels the spirit of innovation in Leigh on Sea’s entrepreneurs. Join us for a reflection on the art of cutting hair and carving out a life that's not only successful but deeply fulfilling.

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John Hawker:

It's basically like me trying to recreate a bedroom when I was 14. It's just Lego. I get the vibes. Jobsworth Season 2, episode 2 Beyond the Barber Shop.

John Hawker:

Welcome to the second episode of Jobsworth Season 2. My guest this time around is Dean Gleason, co-founder of Essex based barbershop Mingo Mail Grooming. All disclosure Dean has been my barber for well over 15 years now, so I'm under no small amount of pressure to get this intro right, for fear of him shaving one of my eyebrows off. I've watched as Dean's become an expert in his trade, took time out to pursue other career opportunities, returned to barbering to co-founder's successful business and become a dad to three kids, whilst running it From the outside looking in. It's been one hell of a ride.

John Hawker:

We discussed the evolution of barbering over the last decade the challenges of juggling a job you're passionate about with being a hands on dad, why sometimes you have to follow through with an idea to discover it's not the direction you want to go in, and the trials of running a business in one of the worst hit industries during the pandemic. Along with his business partner, acer, dean has brought together a collective of talented barbers that offer much more to the community than just a haircut. We talk about exactly what that is Dean's plans for Mingo, and what it's really like running a business with your best mate. So, without further ado, let me introduce you to a guide making waves in the world of barbering, and documenting it through some seriously cool content whilst he's at it, dean Gleason. Dean, thank you for coming in, and I know it's late, so you've gone home and put the kids to bed. Yes, or you were at home.

John Hawker:

Yeah, day after day it was the same thing for me, I don't know. We'll talk about parenting and running a business and maybe some of the guilt that comes with not being present as a parent.

Dean Gleeson:

Yeah, I can talk about that. I feel like we've got some shared experience there maybe, but yeah, thanks for doing this this evening, because I know what it's like when you've got a young family and everything.

John Hawker:

So I'm going to start with a tradition on the podcast and I don't know if you've listened to any full episodes and I won't hold it against you.

Dean Gleeson:

I have to. Yeah, I have Good Okay cool.

John Hawker:

So the first question I always ask is when you were younger, what did you want to be when you grew up?

Dean Gleeson:

Not a fucking clue to be honest, I was one of those. I didn't know what I wanted to do. I was very artistic when I was younger, always creative, always into my drawing, but didn't know where to take it really. So I ended up going to art college but quickly found out that one there's not really a massive career in just drawing until, well, famously, you either die and then they get your money, or that's the standard way of doing it.

John Hawker:

Yeah, my brother's bucked that trend slightly Exactly, or?

Dean Gleeson:

it was go down the multimedia graphic design route, which I didn't really want to do. I mean, now, years on, the world devolved and there's a lot more stuff you can do for graphic design and photography and stuff like that, but at the time it wasn't what I wanted to do. So, for whatever reason, I don't know what possessed me to do it, because I'm not even overly sporty my brother was a sports college so I thought I don't know what, let's go down that route, give that a go.

Dean Gleeson:

And then I don't know what part we thought it was actually going to work out. But yeah, six months later I've dropped out that because I didn't want to do that. And then it was, yeah, a case of just fumbling around trying to find what I wanted to do, which was then when I kind of fell into the job I'm doing now through my business partner he was doing hairdressing at the time, asked me if I wanted to come in and have a day to see what it was like, and then stuck with it ever since. Really. So, yeah, the answer is I had no idea.

John Hawker:

Fair enough. Did you have any? Because sometimes what I'm trying to tap into that question as well is like did you have a dream of being something when you were younger? I'd say the dream was an artist. It was right.

Dean Gleeson:

The dream was an artist, which is. I know we'll probably go into this in a bit later, but that's the route. I'm kind of trying to take my career back down now To come away from the business. I've got to earn money, so I had to untap in the creativity and pushing the boundaries on that side now. So it might be the inner child artist in me trying to come back out.

John Hawker:

Yeah, great, Okay. Well, I'm all for that. I'm like a family of artists apart from me. So I'm all for banging the drum to get that creativity and getting an outlet for that. So that sounds really good. So when did you get into barbering then? How old were you when you started?

Dean Gleeson:

17, 16, 17. Yeah, I've been doing it 17 years now and I'm 34.

John Hawker:

And from the sound of it, it's fair to say that that was a path that wasn't the agenda for you. It wasn't on the roadmap when you were considering that. Do you feel like it was like a popular route to go down as a potential career for people of your age as well? No, not at the time, like 16, 17.

Dean Gleeson:

No, I mean you might have people listen to this that are going to slam me for this, but being a young male hairdresser back in the day to go home and tell a very heterosexual dad that you want to cut women's hair, there was one response. I got to that.

John Hawker:

So this is when you started, it was women's hair you were cutting. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Dean Gleeson:

Like barbering. Back then you couldn't just learn barbering and barbering wasn't what it is today. Barbering today is quite a trendy, cool, popular job. Because of social and stuff. It's been made almost like celebrity status as a job, whereas back then, yeah, you couldn't just learn men's hair, you had to do women's hair Right, then you'd learn men as that qualification.

Dean Gleeson:

So my first year of cutting hair was washing old ladies hair and permming and coloring and cutting and blow drying. So it was, yeah, nothing what I thought it was going to be. So I think if it wasn't which you'll probably like hearing this if it wasn't for Acer telling me to go in and do Acer is my business partner, I tell him to go in and do that job I don't think I'd have done it Because it wasn't. I mean, I grew up with a grade one all over, never really used to do my hair. My mum used to cut it every two weeks, shave it off, no trips to the barber shop. So I was never really that way in client. So yeah, it was a bit of an alien subject and it kind of just come about out of nowhere.

John Hawker:

Tell me a little bit more about your parents reaction or your dad's reaction.

Dean Gleeson:

My dad's just very, very heterosexual, like typical man's man. So it would be like you get introduced to his mates and say this is my gay son, Dean, but then you think, oh, this is hilarious.

John Hawker:

That was the stigma around doing it in the profession.

Dean Gleeson:

The minute you tell people you want to cut women's hairs and live in there, people go. I don't know, you're gay, I'm not, actually, but thanks for that, I think.

John Hawker:

I think and that was part of the reason I wanted to ask the question, and we'll talk about the evolution and how it's perceived now, but I think at that time, I mean, I was getting my haircut and I might share the anecdote that brought me to you 19, 20 years ago now as well.

Dean Gleeson:

Something like that.

John Hawker:

So yeah, I can share a bit more about that, but I was getting my haircut by women Up until the point. I started coming to the shop that you were working at and barbers just weren't a thing, or the barbers that you saw on the high street. Usually it was like an old guy with one or two chairs cutting other old guys hair. And that was the kind of stigma and the stereotype out in my head.

Dean Gleeson:

Yeah, you had. You had two sides of it. It was like if you wanted a bit of a trendy haircut, you'd go to a woman's stylist. If you wanted to short back and sides with a bit of gel slapped in the top, you went to a traditional barber.

Dean Gleeson:

Yeah, and that's the crossover that's now happened over the last five to 10 years, whereas there's kind of this hybrid that's been born where hairdressers and barbers are kind of molding into one, so getting the, the styling and the understanding of hair from the hairdressing side, but you're getting the traditional techniques come through from the barbering Right. Okay, which is why I think it's become a more of a mainstream, popular job, because it's all of a sudden you see all these celebrities getting their hair cut by people and it's it's now within reach, whereas back in, when I first started cutting hair, it was like Nikki Clark, travis, orbey, leeds, stafford, all of those who've done the celebrities and no one else got near. Yeah, whereas now, because of social, you might get lucky by dropping someone a message and getting a response from it. Yeah.

John Hawker:

Wow, yeah, I mean I remember on my 21st birthday having it might be my 18th. It's my 18th birthday because it's before I started getting my haircut with you and I went to Stafford's, yeah, and it was like the first time I'd ever been offered I. Do you want to be on my 18th birthday going in? It was one of the worst haircuts I've ever had.

Dean Gleeson:

It looked like a hair, it was just it was a.

John Hawker:

It wasn't Leeds Stafford cutting it, to be fair, but it was a woman cutting my hair and it was just.

Dean Gleeson:

The experience felt like a big thing at the time and then you've nailed it there because that is. That is what they sold. The haircuts were good, but some of the people they'd worked with they were good, but it was the experience. People went there because it was I mean. Their slogan was the house that hair built.

John Hawker:

And it was. I remember their old shop. It was on London mode, wasn't it? Yeah?

Dean Gleeson:

It had a big Stafford dog on the side and it was. It was just a cool place to go, like, if you got your haircut, my Stafford, you weren't going in there for a a bog standard haircut. You were coming out with something a little bit edgy, a little bit, yeah, rough and ready and you wall. It was a lot lighter as well. Oh, massively so, yeah.

John Hawker:

Yeah, that was mad. So you've been cutting. Then how many years? 17. So sorry, 17 years.

Dean Gleeson:

Yeah, 17, 18 years.

John Hawker:

So, yeah, I would have come quite early on when you were working at the, at the previous barbers. Then, when I started getting my haircut with you, we kind of touched upon it already. But what, what has? What is the primary difference? Like you weren't seeing as many barbers as as you are now on the high street. So what do you think is the primary shift?

Dean Gleeson:

I think I think people now run it more as a business. Like when I first started cutting hair, there was no appointments, it was just you walked in, you sat on a bench with five other guys and you got seen by whoever saw you, whereas now you've got booking platforms that people can schedule for months into the future. So it's a lot more efficient and it's, I think, just the world in general has pushed this agenda now, whether it's for better or worse, that you need to look a certain way, so people won't go out without the hair looking a certain way, or they won't, because you're all dead in a picture about wearing certain clothes and it's. I mean, it's terrible for self-esteem, but it's great for business, so it's one of those as much as like the humility side of me thinks oh no, I shouldn't lean into this.

Dean Gleeson:

My business side says shut the fuck up and just do your job Like because it's the minute you tap into a man's vanity, you can take them for their worth. And it sounds horrible saying that, but I'm like it.

Dean Gleeson:

Like the minute, the minute you think the minute you think that your hair's receding or you're going gray or whatever, people spend thousands trying to correct it, whereas really my job should be to get people to think it's not a problem, like just deal with it, which is what we do to a certain degree now. But yeah, the other side of it is from a business point of view. If you literally went down that route, you need to tap into it.

John Hawker:

You got make money at the end of the day 100%, and I think, yeah. What's become clear now with the amount of barber shops that you see is that there is a model, there is a process to make money out of this as a profession and the frequency in which people get their haircut. Like I'm guilty of it, like every two or three weeks, I'm getting my haircut. You probably have people that come in a lot more regularly than I do. It used to be four to six weeks.

Dean Gleeson:

That was a time frame that would be like an average return on your clients, whereas now I'd say good 15 to 20% of our clients are once a week.

John Hawker:

Really Wow.

Dean Gleeson:

Yeah, exactly, it's only recently. I mean, aysle will test this as well. We've made a lot of mistakes, but we got into the job cutting hair and then you hit a point where you think, all right, I want to do it on my own, I want to go off, I don't want to boss anymore, I want to work for myself. But you've got no idea how to do it. We've had the business nine years now, so, yeah, 26, 27 when we opened the shop and it was no one had a clue.

Dean Gleeson:

Well, you knew how to cut hair well, to a good standard, but I had no business acumen at all. So the problem is you open this shop thinking that it's going to be earning you millions and you can work when you want the stuff, but then you quickly find out the bills and you pay in. So what then happens is you're then behind the chair five days a week, working more than you used to for your old business, and the issue we've had right up until now really is you're the main source of income to that shop. So then you can't then step away from it, because the minute you step away, the profits and plummet, yeah. So it's now trying to sort of put systems in place so we can take a step back and run it.

John Hawker:

I mean I don't know if you've read the book the emith. I haven't.

Dean Gleeson:

No.

John Hawker:

I've read it, okay. Yeah, I'll include a link to that in the comments.

Dean Gleeson:

Michael Gerber I think the guy's name is Gerber Gerber, but he says in there if your business depends on you, you don't own a business, you have a job. I've heard that quote. Yeah, and I think it's the worst job in the world, because your boss is a lunatic. Yeah. Because no one's going to make you work harder than you have to work yourself. And it's like now I've got kids, my business partner's got kids, and it's you're trying, and now it's like steered a ship in a new direction where it kind of runs itself.

John Hawker:

I think that's a dream for anyone. Same for me, and I think the quote applies really well to me. As a one man band doing it all off on my own, how can you afford to take a step away and leave things? It's the one way to see your business careen off a cliff. Basically, and that is a huge issue, and I think we all we're striving for this work life balance, which is this moving target, especially with young children, and that is a really tough goal to achieve. We'll talk about the balance between being a dad and running the business in a bit and also, you know, having a business partner and what that's like when you're sort of sharing that. You've got that shared goal and maybe slightly different ways.

John Hawker:

we can explore that bit slightly different ways and how you want to get there and do you think it was when you so Mengo, your your barbers? I don't know if we've mentioned Mengo, but I will do an intro. And we are now so Mengo is Dean's shop in Lee. Was it when you opened Mengo that you really decided this is the career I want to stick in, or did you make that decision earlier down the line?

Dean Gleeson:

I'd already made that decision. I mean, I took a bit of a tangent in my career, took a sabbatical say and I was actually tattooing for I remember that five years solid. And it was no real reason really, it was just I was. I kind of got a bit tired of where I was in the hair industry for a while because it hit this sort of plateau of I didn't really know where to go with it. It kind of got into a cul-de-sac and I kind of I think what it was is I needed that step then, like I needed to either open up my own shop or go down the education route. What stopped you at that point? I just didn't know how to do it. Fair, enough.

Dean Gleeson:

Yeah, I just didn't. I didn't have. I think I was too young at the time, I didn't have that mindset to sort of pivot and think right, I'll lean into this feeling and see where it takes me, whereas then I thought I'm not really enjoying where I am, let's try something different. And I had the luxury back then of doing it because I still lived at home, didn't have kids, like no one really depended on me, so I did, dean.

John Hawker:

You didn't cut my hair for a few years, or however long it was that you're doing. Yeah, exactly, I've upset a few customers.

Dean Gleeson:

If you're listening, I do apologize, but I was getting tattooed at the time and I was just I was getting tattooed and I was just saying like, look, I'm considering a different career path and they already knew that I could draw and I'd been into my art and stuff and I just done an apprenticeship, went there for a week done an apprenticeship and luckily the guy who was there at the time was leaving, so I kind of just slot it in and, yeah, it just sort of rolled from there and I went full time for, yeah, five years. Was it five years? You?

John Hawker:

did that for, yeah, five years, bloody hell, but that was that creative outlet that you were looking for. Yeah, I think that's what it is.

Dean Gleeson:

I think that's why it was easy for me to lean into that industry was because it it was almost a light bulb, went off of like, oh, this is, this is what you wanted to do from the beginning, but then it's. I mean, it's a great industry. I met some like incredible people and I still have my foot in the industry and it might be something in the few years that we kind of amalgamate the two businesses together. We get a tattoo studio in the barber shop, but it was it's very hard to switch off and tattooing Barbering as much as it's my business. I can shut the door and not have to think about it, whereas tattooing is 24, seven and it's it's tough. Like to do that with a family. I take my house people to do that.

John Hawker:

Yeah, yeah, I mean, it's something that, other than having a couple of tattoos, I've got no insight into whatsoever, but I do appreciate that the way that work for so many people can bleed into life and that makes it really difficult to switch off and be present. And when you talk about having kids, that's what we're all aiming or striving to do. Okay, so four and a half years, five years doing that, what dragged you back to barbering?

Dean Gleeson:

There was a few one of them was health more than anything it was.

Dean Gleeson:

I started suffering with a condition called ulcerative colitis which is, to those that know it's, very similar to Crohn's disease, and it was. I was like 25, 24, 25 at a time, kind of didn't want to accept it, bit naive. So I kind of just powered through for a few months a year and it got to a point where you thought, right, well, you need to get this like seriously looked at now. So I had all the investigations done, turned out that it was this ulcerative colitis. And the way the hospital treat ulcerative colitis is you go on the lowest form of medication possible and then they taper it up to try and catch up like beat it, and unfortunately didn't work with me. So I ended up having to have major surgery.

Dean Gleeson:

But this that was once I'd gone back to barbering. But the reason I come out of tattooing is because you're sitting down, crunched up, for eight hours a day, your diet's not great, your stress levels aren't great, and it was. They were all kind of determining factors that weren't going to help the condition itself. So it was. It was actually Acer again who who said to me look, I'm, I'm considering opening up my own business, would you want to do it with me and it was kind of like a shining vessel of hope that for right, yeah I can get out of this and kind of I think it was. My viewpoint was if because I didn't know where the illness was going to go at that point.

John Hawker:

So it was scary. At that age you feel fallible for the first time and you're not invincible.

Dean Gleeson:

And especially as men we don't like. I was a bit like. I don't like it. It'll go away.

John Hawker:

And it's an approach most take.

Dean Gleeson:

Yeah, it doesn't it doesn't go away at all. And it was, I think, part of my brain for well, if I can run this business, if the health does get worse, at least I can then just still run the business. So yeah, it kind of just opened up this opportunity to sort of run with it and see where it went, yeah.

John Hawker:

And what did that do? Like from a mindset perspective, then? No like hearing that news that you've got this health condition that is impacting you, and however much you want to sweep it under the carpet, and pretend everything's okay. You've got to make changes and maybe we can go into a bit of detail. That like lifestyle diet, whatever that looks like. How does that affect you, especially going in then to this new venture with? Acer.

John Hawker:

Like, did it? Did it sort of imbue you with this, this sense of direction, now, like you're committed to starting a business, you're committed to barboring again? Yeah, did it motivate you in a positive way?

Dean Gleeson:

Yeah, and I think the the barboring was a healthy distraction, because the problem with the illness was you just want to lock yourself away and not go out because it's as much as people won't want to talk about it. It's an embarrassing illness Like for me personally. I was quite extroverted. I'd be out every weekend and then you get to a point where I wouldn't leave my house unless I knew there was a toilet within a five minute radius. So straight away you just sort of go back into your shell. You don't want to do anything. You sort of lock down. Training went out the window and I'd always been into my health and fitness. So it was yeah, it was good, it was a. It was a healthy distraction to sort of focus myself on and not go down the other direction of I'm just going to become a recluse and just sit at home and do nothing.

John Hawker:

Bear your head in the sand. Close the door, knock that out again.

Dean Gleeson:

It's very much like you can. I used to suffer with the whole. Why me mindset that I'd sit there and think, oh, why have I got this? Why Whereas you now need to look at it from different perspectives of well, you've got it because you are tough enough to deal with it. So, it's.

Dean Gleeson:

it's different ways, I mean. I've I never really used to read stuff back then, whereas now I'm very much self-help progression books and positive mindsets and the martial arts I do now are very meditative and sort of switching your mind to a positive place, and it's all of that kind of stuff's helped and given a different outlook now.

John Hawker:

Yeah that's really good to hear, mate. That's fantastic. I mean Acer again to thank in a way, to sort of like giving this up to him.

Dean Gleeson:

He's getting bigger and bigger. Listen to this, ever since he's not here as well.

John Hawker:

Take all the plaudits, but I mean it's great. I think there are people in your life that just open doors sometimes and it sounded like at that point that was a really good time for that to happen.

John Hawker:

Okay, so I think it's fairly obvious then why you? Why you decided to go down the business route and set up. You've got all these years of experience. You wanted an opportunity to make more from that, both financially, and also not have a boss, which you think is definitely why I said you know, and one of the common themes that I'm exploring through every guest that comes on in season two is the location that we live in. So a lot of the guests are from Lee and Southend. And why Lee? For a barber shop? Because you were one of the. You were one of the first, like nine years ago, you were one of the first there.

Dean Gleeson:

Well, that's the proof right there how many have opened since we've been there.

John Hawker:

Yeah and dolls.

Dean Gleeson:

Yeah. I mean. If you're not from around the area, it's hard to explain. But, Lee, is this beautiful little pocket surrounded by rubbish. That's the nicest part.

John Hawker:

Thing doesn't work on a tourist board for this part of it.

Dean Gleeson:

There's nowhere else really like it. There's not many towns that are owned by independent retailers. Like you walk down Lee there's, I think in the whole stretch of the Broadway. There's two chains, three chains maybe. And when they open, there is uproar isn't it Absolutely, when you hear they're coming there's like pickets and all sorts of stuff.

Dean Gleeson:

And that is what kind of drew us to the area was.

Dean Gleeson:

I mean, now you can look at it from like a Issa-Nafla an area and there's going to be people willing to spend enough money and all this, whereas back then it was just a nice area but people went. There's not many places where people just go for a day yeah, like I do with my family we go down to old Lee, we go for a walk, get a coffee, walk down the seafront there's not many towns that do that and it's kind of become a hub now, like because you can get to London in 40 minutes, you're right in the center of everything, and it's to me it's kind of like a mini London, because there's an opportunity place there where there's so many different industries and different job ventures going on there. You can kind of make anything happen from there and that's kind of what sold it to me. It wasn't the. I wasn't walking around thinking people got a load of money around here. I was walking around thinking that it's where would I want to go to get my haircut. And it was.

Dean Gleeson:

Lee.

John Hawker:

Yeah, I think, again, one of the reasons that I focused on people from this area like it's creatives, entrepreneurs, business owners it's because of the volume in that stretch of Lee Road, Lee Broadway. There's a few guests this season that are outside that kind of strict zone, but I just think the volume of people in that tiny area is too high, not for there's something to be massively going on about it. So you're right. So no regrets setting up in Lee then.

Dean Gleeson:

No, because we kind of looked around at a few different places. I mean, I've worked, I worked in South End, I worked in Rayleigh, I live in Eastwood and it was we kind of was looking around. The shop we're in now was actually the first shop we looked at Really, yeah, but the layout of the time we kind of looked at and thought, oh, it's not going to work, so we dismissed it and we was waiting around, waiting around, and it was only when I sort of thought I'll float the question to the landlord if she'd mind the walls coming down inside. And it turned out she didn't even have a clue. They were in there, whoever was waiting the shop for her.

Dean Gleeson:

Yeah, just put them up as treatment rooms, and as soon as they come down, you then had this whole open space that you could then see the vision, get the layout done and sort of build from there. So it was yeah, no, no, no regrets at all.

John Hawker:

Yeah, brilliant, okay. So since I've known you, you've had the shop for nine years now Since I've known you, which we're saying? I mean I said 20 early and that's too long.

Dean Gleeson:

It's got to be at least 17. It's got to be 16, 17 years.

John Hawker:

So just quick anecdote I had one of the worst haircuts ever a place that's now gone under, so I will name it called Snippers in Rayleigh, Yep. Awful haircut and Dean salvaged what was left of my hair and I did actually have a buzz cut, but it was a buzz cut like I've never had it before. So my experience was very much just take a trimmer to my own head and just see what happens. But then, yeah, that started a relationship with Dean that still lasts to this day which is, I don't know, it's a romantic.

John Hawker:

It's a real love story. So I've known you for a long time. I've known you as a single guy living at home, no responsibilities, able to take that decision I'll fuck Barbara and I'm going to go and tattoo. For five years Now you've got three kids under the age of five or five and under the age of five.

John Hawker:

So that's a huge shift. Now I know how passionate about work you are. Yeah, how is going to be a broad question, but how do you get the balance right between running a business and being a dad and a partner as well?

Dean Gleeson:

I'm still trying to work that out and my Mrs will be chuckling at home. Listen to this question because it's a debate we have on a regular basis and I tell you why. And it's I know we've spoken about this before because, as much as people say like I only do my job, because I love doing my job and I don't care about the fame and I don't care about this there is a part of me as much as I don't like a bit of it and it's maybe a narcissistic point of me, but I enjoy the fame side of it. I like being on stage, I like going to shows, I like when I get work with while I'm working with, when I'm on their socials and I'm promoting a brand and it's I don't know what that is. I don't know if it's a suppressed thing from when I was younger. That's now like trying to get a. Or look at me, look what.

John Hawker:

I'm doing yeah, maybe.

Dean Gleeson:

And it's so. The problem with that is when I do get work thrown at me like I'm fortunate enough to be part of, like the while artistic team now, and the minute they give me a job like I had to go to America last year the minute they offer me that I'm like, yep, I'm doing it. And then I think, oh crap, I've got family. Whereas it's hard because, yeah, honestly, if Alice is watching this or listening to this, she'll be cracking up because she says it all the time. She's like you don't even think about us.

Dean Gleeson:

When you get these things doing, you think, no, I do, but the screaming kid inside me wants to do them. So it's, yeah, I'm still trying to work on that balance, but it's, my family will always come first. But I try to kind of blur the lines of what I'm doing for work because it's providing for them, whereas it's probably an egotistical side of me that should think you need to turn some of these jobs down. But one, they do pay well and two, I enjoy them. But yeah, there is going to hit a point, especially as the kids get older. I'm going to have to kind of balance that a little bit better.

John Hawker:

Yeah, it's a really tough thing. I mean, our kids are similar ages. So I've got Finley, bodew's five and rapidly approaching six now, and Bodew's two, and I don't know. I might go for a little bit of a tangent here, but when I had kids I automatically thought I was going to fall into the same story. As everyone else is, like my kids in my entire world, like I would do everything for my children and I do to a big, like a great degree.

John Hawker:

But, I also have aspirations for myself that are completely separate from my kids and sometimes I feel like some narratives out there will make you feel quite selfish for wanting something for yourself.

Dean Gleeson:

Yeah, that's how I feel about it, yeah.

John Hawker:

For the pure shits and giggles of wanting something for yourself to be called, something to be named, something to be on a stage, to be mentioned in the same sentences, whatever. That's. That that is. Maybe I wouldn't go as far as narcissistic I'm not a therapist, but there is. We've got our own aspirations as dads, and I would, I would die for my kids, but there's also stuff that I want to do completely separate of my children massively. And so how do you? I'll go into this, I will ask this question how do you think, as dads, then we're made to feel when that is is sort of like? I don't know when that question is aimed at you, you know.

Dean Gleeson:

I definitely get the guilt of it, but not from other people's point of view, like I'm not a self self, yeah, I might never make me feel guilty for like going to do these jobs because she knows I'm doing it, because it's work, like if I was going out away with the lads on a jolly up every month, then it's a bit different. But I'm going away and doing what she actually loves, that I'm passionate about the job that I'm doing. But for me it's then kind of like I see the kids when I get back, when I've been away for seven days, and I see how much they've missed me and you think, oh, would they rather I be here. But then what's the flip side of that? You then become a dad that isn't setting them goals for them. I want, I want them to do a job that they're passionate about and they're hungry about. So if I'm not showing that, then how are they ever going to aim at that?

Dean Gleeson:

And it's like I say this all the times for people I talk to about. I kind of have two hats. I have my work hat and I have my family hat. And it's being able to change them when you need to, because I like to keep them separate. If you go on my social media, there's nothing about my kids on it. One, because I have some weirdos on my social media.

Dean Gleeson:

Two because they're separate, because I don't want to blend the two worlds together, because I think that's when it becomes a problem, because then I take my work home and I bring my family problems to work or whatever. So I tried it when I'm at home, I've got my home hat on, and when I'm at work, I've got my business hat on, and that's how I keep it.

John Hawker:

Yeah, that's good. I mean, I'm jealous and I know it's not as easy as that.

Speaker 3:

I know you were saying it was black and white as that.

John Hawker:

I know it's not that easy, but I think that's what we're all striving to do, yeah.

Dean Gleeson:

I mean I'll put the hat on wrong hat on regular times. Yeah, Sometimes it's back to front side.

John Hawker:

Yeah, I get that completely. I did want to talk to you because I think your industry was one of, if not the most hardest during the pandemic, and I'm not going to speak about the pandemic for long. But you are literally closed. For how many months? Oh, it's got to be eight.

Dean Gleeson:

Eight months. Yes, six to eight months, I think it was in total, because we had the first one. I mean, the first one was I had kind of whispers of like, oh, we're going to be shut for this long on, people, and I give it two weeks, we'll be back, and then it come out that we were going to be shut for the whole summer, basically, wouldn't it. And then we were open again and we were back shut again. But the thing that done us was the regulations that come in from it. So it wasn't as if your business shut and then it was open. It was back to full capacity when you had.

Dean Gleeson:

You couldn't have more than a certain amount of people in the shop. You couldn't do beard trims, everyone had to wear masks and it was like people stopped coming in because it was just uncomfortable, like you don't want to sit there getting your hair cut with a mask on. It's itchy enough getting your hair cut, let alone when you've got a face mask on, and it just killed. It Killed the business. We lost a good percentage of clients where they just thought I'll just cut it home, I'll just start shave my own hair.

Dean Gleeson:

But, that was a movement wasn't it.

Dean Gleeson:

Yeah, it caused it. The buzz cut trend, like it, caught on and it's I mean it helped some people because they've grown their hair, they've been trying to grow their hair for years and they look fantastic now. But yeah, it really it did rock the industry because it but then the rebound of it was it made people realise how valuable barbers are. I think that's what I think. You've only got to cut your own hair once at home and realise that it's not as easy as you think it is.

John Hawker:

I did it. I had a crack, yeah, definitely.

Dean Gleeson:

So it's. There was a lot of downsides to it, but coming out of it now it's kind of bringing it back up. But people have got to be careful the route they go down, because you've got some people now that have come back in. They were charging 15 pound of haircut and they're now coming back in at 40 quid of haircut because they're trying to.

John Hawker:

Is that through trying to recoup?

Dean Gleeson:

So I'm not, I just think they're trying to capitalize on the fact that people couldn't get a haircut for so long. They've now realised they're valuable they are, so they're trying to yeah, just overdo it, I think. I mean, everyone puts their prices up, but it's all about value. To me, like, the biggest thing with our shop is how much value can you provide a customer, because you can charge what you want, as long as they believe they're getting that amount of value.

John Hawker:

Yeah, true.

Dean Gleeson:

So it's finding that balance. If I will have sudden up my prices 10 pounds tomorrow but done nothing different, you're not going to want to pay it.

John Hawker:

Yeah, and I think price increases incrementally are expected in any industry, especially with the way life is at the moment and just the cost of living in general. But I get what you mean. Yeah, If you're going to, if you're going to have a real significant increase, there has to be a significant increase in the service or the offering that people are getting. It's interesting that you say about people trying to bump prices up to sort of capitalize on that feeling of because I know I missed it. I've talked to you before about the my trips to the barbers being like my version of self care, Like it's the only time I will ever sit in a chair on. Like it's like free therapy I'm paying for a haircut but the therapy and the conversation is all free. Like this is all a chat, it's part of the experience.

Dean Gleeson:

Well, it was a guy I actually heard of. There's another podcast I was listening to the other guy, American guy called Ivan's suit and he's a I can't remember where he works now, but he's in America and he was saying that barbering isn't about good haircuts, it's about good relationships. It's the amount of times he's been in barber shops where the best hairdresser in there is the quietest because you've got no people skills, Whereas a person who can't cut hair that great is fully booked because good haircuts are easy to find now, Whereas good people are hard to find, and that's that's something we're trying to do now. I mean, you've had your haircut while most of the people are now in our shop and it's I want it to.

Dean Gleeson:

We kind of want to pride ourselves on the fact that anyone can get on with you and give you the service you need. And, like you just said, a lot of the guys that come in, though, isn't just about haircut. A lot of the time they want to offload or they want to hear about our day or whatever, and it's it's kind of I mean, I've been told some stuff by my clients I definitely should not have been told.

John Hawker:

I might fall into that category. Yeah, it's a weird.

Dean Gleeson:

it's a weird kind of dynamic with when you're in a barber chair because I mean, I've heard about it before with people say it's because you're, you're, you're hitting so many sensory points, so touch, sound, smell, vision, like just that proximity to someone as well, there's very few.

John Hawker:

it's vulnerable, isn't it?

Dean Gleeson:

Yeah, Completely, and I think, because you're in that vulnerable position, you've got no choice but to let it happen. You then guards come down and people think, oh, I can I mean you trust them with your hair. So you then it kind of leads into oh, I can talk to this guy and yeah, I know things about my clients that I guarantee even their wives don't like Please don't come in and ask me about your husband's secrets.

John Hawker:

That's another podcast. I personally don't reckon. Have you seen a bit of an evolution over the years? I know we talked about how the industry has changed but, like the types of conversations you're having now with guys in the chair, do you find that men over 17 years have started to open up?

Dean Gleeson:

Yeah, people definitely more open to being vulnerable now and I think we play a big lead in that. I mean, we touched on it earlier on my illness. But the minute I that was the path I went down because it could have been quite easy for me to just not tell anyone, keep it behind closed doors and have it as my little secret. I kept to myself. But I went the other way and I thought I'm just going to talk about this, tell people why I've been in, what's happening.

Dean Gleeson:

And the minute I started sharing that, people went I've got that, or I've had them symptoms, or my brother's got that, and all of a sudden it then starts his whole conversation where you're not the only one who's got it and I think a lot of that, as a barber, is what we need to tap into where you're not therapists I'm not quoting that at all, but you can. You can start to pick up on people's moods and the way they look and stuff and you can tell if something's off. And I think that's our point to sort of. I'm not going to counsel anyone when they're in the chair, but if if I can help you with anything, I'll try and help you with it. So the haircut is a small portion of it.

John Hawker:

Yeah, yeah, it's like a. It's like a value add for the person sat in the chair, but for you, I guess it gives you that sense of that you're doing. The work you do is meaningful, obviously, but you're getting something like there's a deeper, less superficial meaning with what you're doing because of the impact you're making on people when they've left the shop.

Dean Gleeson:

Yeah, and I would never have got into industry if I was just going to do it for money, because I could earn a lot more money doing something much different. I could go sit in an office typing in computers for hours and earn more money, but I enjoy the aspect. I enjoy meeting people and building these relationships and, yes, there's a financial side to it. But I think if it wasn't for the other side of it of getting these connections and networking, which is something that I'm really pushing now with the the business side of it, with working, but the personal side of it, yeah, I mean some of my customers now I've had since I started cutting hair and some of my close mates and there's not many other jobs.

Dean Gleeson:

you do that in? No, definitely not.

John Hawker:

And that consistency, like if you're seeing people once a week, twice a month, whatever that looks like. You develop relationships over that time If you're good at what it is you do yeah. Okay, you run the business, so you run Mingo with Acer. What was the experience like setting up with a business partner? And then what's it been like continuing to manage the business with someone else, because I can't imagine it's easy all the time.

Dean Gleeson:

No, not at all. Experience setting up was just sunshine and rainbows. Because it was too young, excited kids. Living the dream almost in a way. Yeah, exactly, we got out, we've got our own place, started doing something we loved, and at first it was. I mean, we was quiet as anything we first opened. If you look back on what we first used to make, what we thought was a good week, if we weren't that now, it would be terrible Really. But you still loved it.

Dean Gleeson:

And it was. I still love it now. But it's like different visions on it now, but I've never, really we've never fell out. We've had topics we discussed and we've got, we've had sort of different visions and stuff, but we've never had bust ups, yeah, like we've never gone at each other. We've never had real disagreements and I think that comes from learning. We're very different people but I don't think that's a bad thing. It's. I'm more of the showy, go work for companies, do the education, whereas Acerd is very. I mean, I've, I've, I've. I've never met a barber who's as booked up as him. He's very. I've noticed that about Acerd.

Dean Gleeson:

The work ethic is ridiculous it would, it would, it would just work and work, and work, and work and work, and it's. The excitement is always on me. We're now taking the next step to progress the business even more. Like we touched on earlier, we're now trying to steer it into a place where we can grow the business and take the business to a place where it actually works for us rather than us having to work for it. So that excitement defies there again. But yeah, there's been times over the years where we've not seen eye to eye on where we wanted our visions to go and there may have been points where we could have split or we were going to split, but we've worked for it and we've seen the vision and it's come back onto the same path. So, yeah, I'm excited to where it's going.

John Hawker:

It's like any relationship, isn't it? You're never going to have smooth sailing 100%, not man You're two individual people with your own aspirations too. But it's lovely to see and you get that sense from the shop that you two are a really strong partnership. What do you think are some of the pros of working with a business partner as opposed to just going, yet on your own?

Dean Gleeson:

Well, your problems are halved. For a start, it's straight away. I mean especially for me. I had to have three major surgeries that required me to have a month off.

John Hawker:

And I love the paternity leave and I love the paternity leave.

Dean Gleeson:

Yeah, so I mean straight away off the bat. If I didn't have a business partner, that would have been six months out of the business.

Dean Gleeson:

Which is potentially critical, depending on who else you've got, or the flip side of that is I go back from surgery too soon and don't recover in time, or I cut my maternity short, which then affects the time I've spent with the family. So yeah, it's. I mean, I'm grateful for a business partner especially in that aspect, because it's allowed me to do what I needed to do. But the business still maintain its income. And it's now like Acer's just had a kid. He's now starting his family journey and it's now I wouldn't take over that role where he'll take the time off, I'll hold the fault down. So yeah, for the biggest point. But it's just nice as well to. We'll go grab a coffee and we'll just chew the fat. We'll just. It's nice as well, because I'm kind of risk taker. I would just think, fuck it, let's take on a massive shop and just see what happens, whereas I think I personally need someone to go.

Dean Gleeson:

Whoa well, no just counterbalance that, yeah, there's there's, there's wait a minute and let's see where this goes, and that that that is Acer. To me, Acer is my kind of like let's take a breath and see, because it's it's very easy, where I'm getting momentum with the other stuff I'm doing in the industry, to think I'll be all right, like let's just, let's take a risk, let's put a down payment, down this, let's set up this massive place. But then when we have a chat about it, you think, all right, yeah, we'd actually be shutting away.

John Hawker:

Yeah, I definitely think you need. You need that person that's going to force you to have a sense, check and say to you, like you know, maybe you think bigger picture what the ramifications of decisions you're making. I'm, I'm, I think, very similar to you in that I, if I'm motivated to do something, I think in the short term and I'll go yeah, I'm committing to that and in mid to long term it takes someone else just trying to go you sure, have you really thought that through?

John Hawker:

But you need. You need the balance, don't you? Because sometimes people can be too risk averse and don't want to do anything and move forward. What do you think Acer would say is the hardest thing about working with you?

Dean Gleeson:

Probably my. I'd say it's passion rather than anything, but it's the same problem I have with the family. Yep Is the same problem I have with Acer Right. Whereas I I get offered these jobs to go abroad and to do this, and it's when I first take them it I don't personally look at it from the whole spectrum of like how this could look from the opposite side.

John Hawker:

Yeah, you're going to be out of the business. Exactly that.

Dean Gleeson:

So that's now what, what we're really focusing on how to, how to make that more fair really if it's the most honest way of saying it, but how to make it work for the business rather than like how can we use that to market Mengo? Understood, yeah, so then not stop doing it, but utilize it. So do the trips, but make sure the trips are benefiting Mengo. Yeah, so that's, that's where I've got to take on that sort of role of right.

Dean Gleeson:

I'll still do these if they're going to benefit what we're doing here because at the end of the day, like I love what I do for a while, I'll do it for as long as I can, but there is a shelf life of it. Yeah. Like you're not going to be on stage cutting and educating when you're 45 years old, because it's going to be a new, trendier, shinier object that comes through the ranks, that's going to take your place, which is natural. So it's kind of doing what I can of it now to then support what we're trying to build for the future.

John Hawker:

Because your personal brand is huge, like all the stuff that you do from your own perspective, and again, that ticks the boxes artistically, ticks those narcissistic, no, but ticks the boxes of these aspirations that you've got. Yourself is really strong, and I do, I do understand it. Yeah, if you can weaponize it, harness it to then promote the business at the same time.

John Hawker:

I think that's a really good move to go down. So with with the creative stuff, because I saw something on your socials the other day about doing a photo shoot in the shop, in the shop, yeah. So when you say you want to explore that further or start drawing that into what you're doing, tell us a bit more about that. What's the kind of project around?

Dean Gleeson:

that that is. It's kind of me carving a niche for myself because, especially on stage when I, when I first started cutting hair, if you could do a skin fade you'd stand out right, because not many people could do it because, like we were saying, people were hairdressers and then they started becoming barbers. So if you were early onset of learning how to do them type of haircuts, you'd stand out stage. Everyone can skin fade now.

Dean Gleeson:

So when I'm on stage educating, if there's four or five people doing similar haircuts, there's no real reason that someone's going to be drawn to you, whereas if all of a sudden you walk past our stage and I'm doing patterns in the back of someone's head, like carving shapes in the back of their hair, all of a sudden, whether you like it or not, you're going to watch it because it's creative, it's artistic, it's something you probably can't do yourself. So all of a sudden, it then gives you that edge of, okay, let's go have a look what this guy's doing. But more than anything, yeah, it's just me. I've been one of those for years now. I've been sitting there watching people on socials big in America at the moment like all the you'd never get them as normal haircuts in the chair.

Dean Gleeson:

But yes that's not why they're doing them, they're doing it because it's all yeah, they want to do them and it's kind of I want to explore that, I want to push the boundaries, I want to see how far I can take that and it's.

Dean Gleeson:

I think that is the side of the industry that I've been missing out on for so long, because it's very easy, especially when you've got kids, to think I'll just cut hair five days a week, I'll learn a good salary and I'll be sensible, whereas now it's at a point where I think you can do both. Like the shop's stable enough, we've got enough boys working for us that we can do both. And it's seeing it from a different perspective of when you don't understand how to do it yourself, you have to pay people. So I've now gone down this route of educating myself, not massively, like I'm not saying I'm gonna talk for by any means, but I know how to get by now. And I think that's the biggest step for me is it's not going to be perfect, but it's getting it done and then I can build on it. So it's it's given me that starting point that I now might develop into photography a bit more, I might do videography a bit more, because I'm enjoying that side of it.

John Hawker:

And I think the process, part of what people are doing day to day is what a lot of people tap into Definitely on social media. I think authenticity and showing the human aspect of what people are doing for a job is becoming even more important because I keep talking about AI in every conversation.

John Hawker:

I have. But with artificial intelligence I don't ever think we're gonna be sat in a chair or it's a long way off with a robot cutting our hair. But the way it's portrayed on social media with the advent of AI could very quickly all look like the same chick going out there. So I think showing process stuff is an important evolution and I keep talking to my brother about that as well. From that creativity perspective, you have to show how things are done, to show there's a human behind it, and that's how you can stand out. I've got two questions left and then a closing question, Dean. So in terms of managing people, you say you've got a few guys now in a show.

John Hawker:

I know I probably have had my hair cut by most of them and I know the way that you manage them is slightly different from, like, your standard employer employee relationship. But how do you find that part of what it is you do? How much do you get involved in day to day management of those people?

Dean Gleeson:

That is probably my biggest struggle, because I'm like a born in a China shop If I'm not happy with something, I'm very quick to react, and it's the same at home as well. I know I said to you before about I'm constantly learning on my job being a dad, because it doesn't come naturally to me. I think you get natural parents and you get technical parents, and I'm definitely a technical parent.

Dean Gleeson:

I love being a dad more than anything in the world, but it's not natural. So when the kids are screaming or when people aren't doing what I want to work, my head just goes like. I don't lose my temper, I'm not going off the road, but it bothers me, whereas I think different people deal with it very different, and it's I think if we started again, I would have different processes in place. I would run it not corporate, because I think there needs to be that personal and that more intimate element to it when you're working in a smaller shop.

Dean Gleeson:

But I think there would need to be more of a separation because, it's very easy when we're all similar age in our shop to be like, oh, we're just mates and it's all. The boys have got respect for us. But if to expand it and to go into a bigger shop or more locations like if we set up, say, we set up five more shops, for instance we would have to have systems in place for staff, Because otherwise you'd have to be in all of them. That's the issue we need to work on, because it's as much as you don't want to run it like a corporate business. You need to if you want to expand.

John Hawker:

So many organizations suffer from the same thing, though, when they're growing it's. How do you transition out of that? People hate the word family, and I'm not saying that's what it? Is at all but a closer knit type of business, to then try and break free of that, because that can come with its own issues. The closer you are, the more exposed you have to each other's shit all the time.

Dean Gleeson:

Yeah, exactly.

John Hawker:

So I get why. So is that the plan, then, for Mingo moving forward? Do you think it's gonna be additional site? So is this still like a discussion?

Dean Gleeson:

Well, this is a conversation over at the moment it's either you're gonna be a bigger premises that offers more services or it's gonna be multiple locations and it's kind of working out what's gonna work more beneficial for us. Because if we go bigger we're still gonna be a very big part of it, which is fine. I wanna do that, but it depends what the goal is. If the goal is to step back from it more, I mean my personal goal would be to drop, or be able to drop to three days a week and refine my client list. So I've got my regular loyal customers that have been moved for years. I don't take on any new clients.

Dean Gleeson:

All the new clients go to the boys and then my client will grow with me and then that allows me to then spend more time with family or do the shows and stuff like that, because at the moment, working five days a week, it then goes into your own time. If you need to do a show or educate, it's then your sixth or seventh day you're given up, whereas if you've got them three days, it then allows you to do that. So I think, personally going, even if we went to a bigger location, I think the goal would still be to step back and let people come through the ranks and that's when the systems need to come in place, because at the moment, we've got me and Aisa that own a business and then we've just got self-employed barbers, whereas if we turn it into a proper business, we're gonna have to have managers in place, you're gonna have to have possibly HR involved if you're dealing with more than 10, 15 people.

Dean Gleeson:

But, yeah, it's kind of getting outside sources to come in to sort of give their input and not try to do anything ourselves.

John Hawker:

Yeah, I think that's a really good shout, because that's what we done.

Dean Gleeson:

When we started it was, we didn't know what we'd done. So you're the cleaner, you're the HR, you're the. Pa. All the hats you wear is. Yeah, and it's not healthy in the long run Because but you haven't got the money to support in the beginning, whereas now we're trying to get to a place where you think, right, I'll delegate that to so-and-so, I'll delegate that to this person, because then it makes your job easier.

John Hawker:

It's only you're only gonna learn it as you go, though aren't you. And what hindsight is a wonderful thing. You can look at all the mistakes or the lessons that you learned along the way, and if you could start again, you could put them all in place, couldn't you? But we'd go through that kind of process to come out the other side with the skills.

Dean Gleeson:

I think it's sort of lent itself to us because people have seen that vulnerable side to us, kind of treading water in the beginning, and it makes you more personal. If we'd open Mengo's doors on day one and it had been this big corporate business that ran, there was no empathy there, there was no personality there, I don't think we'd have what we have today, because people have kind of accepted that more. Oh good on you for giving it a go.

John Hawker:

Yeah, it's authentic and it's human, because we're all fallible and we're all prone to making mistakes. What was the? Whether you'd be happy answering this or not is another thing, but what do you reckon one of the biggest mistakes you made in the earlier days of the business?

Dean Gleeson:

Oh, that's tough.

John Hawker:

What's one of the best lessons you learned? Maybe a different one to phrase it.

Dean Gleeson:

I would probably say now, not having clear goals in mind where we want the business to go because, even in the last six months, because our focus has been so channeled.

Dean Gleeson:

We've been able to achieve more in six months and we've done in nine years. So it's looking back now. I think if we'd had that then goals and then systems in place you kind of think where would we've been now? So it's you look at other. There's another shop I won't mention it now, but there's another shop that are very similar to me and Acer. Both business partners went into the industry similar time to us and they're a very different career path now and you can't help but look at people like that and think we could have been there and you question yourself and think, well, what could we have done differently to do that? And I think that was it. There's nothing to do with work ethic. There's nothing to do with our customer service. I think it is literally just not having them clear goals and visions laid out from the very start.

John Hawker:

Do you think, though, in your defense I think 24, 25 years of age, that's difficult to have your shit together to that level, and it is and it's.

Dean Gleeson:

we come from a very both of us come from families that worked, just worked hard, didn't run businesses. They just they did run business but they were involved in the business. So my mom and dad both had a job. Acer's mom and dad had jobs. His mom's got a successful business, but she was the main person in the business. So you've never really had them entrepreneurs in the family.

Dean Gleeson:

And it's now this is where it's now running now where we're leaning into like Acer's brother Mitch is very successful entrepreneur and it's we're now kind of thinking well, it's not, he's not just your brother anymore, he's a very good business person we can have a chat with and it's now kind of bringing in external sources. I've learned the power of mentors over the past two years, because it's very easy to think, oh, I'll just waste the money. It's 1500 quid, I'm not spending that, but the value you gain from it is. I wish I'd done it on day one. So it's tough, it's a hard question to answer, but I think that would be it From day one. If we open our next shop now, within two years, it will be double as far ahead as I want it to be.

John Hawker:

That's great. Again, it's hindsight. I think you do have to be kind to yourself.

John Hawker:

I know you are, I know you're not beating yourself up for not being further down the line than you are, because it's been a huge success and everyone that I know really gets their haircut there and I know that's not the only measure of success when you're running a barbers and with all the plans you've got moving forward. But it's so highly thought of the business in this area so you should be really proud of it. I appreciate that, but I get what you're saying. Same with my business.

John Hawker:

If I'd really been clear, it was all survival when I first set up and probably the first two years was so a bit more of a focus somewhere I wanted to go. I might be further down the line.

Dean Gleeson:

It's hard though, because I don't think that vision will ever be met. I'm one of these people, and I don't know if Acer will attest this as well, but my thing is kind of milestone. So we was at a show two years ago and I walked past the wild stage and I said to Acer and he'll quote me in it I said I'll cut hair on stage next year on that stage. And it happened. And you think, when you get there, you think I've made it, this is it, whereas it doesn't. My mind then goes all right, now what? And then you get given the trip to LA last year and you think, oh, that's career, hard, that doesn't get better than this.

Dean Gleeson:

I thought I was going to go to LA, come back and think, oh, sit, now I can just cut hair in the shop for the rest of the time now because I've done it. But it doesn't Again. You then think, all right, now what? And it's then, because that's been ticked off, the goalpost thing gets made higher. So I don't think you're ever if you're the sort of person what I think mean you are I don't think you're ever going to meet the level you think you're going to meet, because once you get there, you then want the next one, and I don't think there's anything wrong with that, because I think if it wasn't that person, I'd have settled a long time ago.

John Hawker:

Yeah, I think it all goes back to the cliche and it echoes a conversation I had a few days ago in the last episode I recorded with a friend of mine who's been working his ass off to be a published author for years and years and has finally got a book deal, and I asked him what it was like when he got the contract through. I said do you feel like you completed it? And he said no, and I get it completely because every goal you get there and you realize the cliche which is all about it's not the destination, it's the journey. It's like what's the process like? Are you enjoying the day to day.

John Hawker:

Because the likelihood is, when you get reached the top of the mountain, you'll be looking for the next one to try and sum it you enjoy the chase, you don't actually, you don't know what you're going to feel when you get there.

Dean Gleeson:

Yeah, and I know it's very easy for people that have got a lot of wealth to sell. Money doesn't buy you happiness, but I believe it. I mean, you look at some of the richest people in the world that have given up work and they're highly depressed because, it was the actual job they enjoyed.

John Hawker:

It's the process.

Dean Gleeson:

It's the day to day. Yeah.

John Hawker:

Really good point, mate. No, I think that's a really good point. Okay, I've got one more question to ask you and then we've got the closing question, if that's all right, dean? So I think I mentioned the common theme between everyone that comes on in season two is that we're all based in and around Leonsea, yeah, or Southend, so you might have answered this already. But what do you think, or do you think I'm completely off my head when I do think there's a common theme in that we've got this concentration of entrepreneurs, creatives, business owners. What do you think it is about this area? I know we're saying they are there, yeah, but why are they here in such high numbers?

Dean Gleeson:

I think a lot of it is. It's small business, people with big ideas. I think that's probably the easiest way to describe it actually.

Dean Gleeson:

It's people that have been born in a or grown up or live in a small town that want bigger things. That's the kind of feeling I get when I'm in Lee that you've got these people that have grown up in, like where I'm at Eastwood, rayleigh, hockley, lee but they want to make something bigger. They want to be like. I've listened to a lot of people and there's a guy called Ed Milet and he says that there's always one person in family you can come from poverty. When there'll be one person that will change that and I think a lot of the people in Lee want to be that person. They want to build a legacy or they want to create that wealth. I think it's people that have not. You don't get many people that have come from London moved down to Lee. You get a lot of people that have grown up in Lee that are trying to build something they can then take to London.

Dean Gleeson:

They can keep here and develop it into something bigger, and I think that's what it is. It's a lot of a community feel around there because everyone's got the same mindset. There's not many people in Lee that only have one business idea. It's a lot of aspirational people. People start off with one shop and then they want to get another or they want to grow a business, and it's everyone kind of leans into everyone and tries to support each other, which I think is what builds Lee into what it is.

John Hawker:

Yeah, I think you're right and I think it's addictive in a way and it's kind of self perpetuating. You keep speaking to people that have got these ideas and have had a degree of success, and then you see these collaborations happening and the next level starts to run from there.

Dean Gleeson:

There is something going on in this area, it's what I mean is a pocket.

John Hawker:

It's a great part of the world to be and I know Essex has got like a stigma attached to it. And there are parts of Essex and maybe some of those stereotypes are incredibly fair. But, yeah, I just feel like there is too much drive, aspiration, entrepreneurship in our little part of the world. It just felt like a thing that I should be focused on.

Dean Gleeson:

We've had it with the vision we've got at the moment with the shop. It would make sense for us to get a shop somewhere else because it's cheaper.

Dean Gleeson:

We could move on to London Road or Hockley or wherever and it would be probably half the price. But we won't leave and it's. I can't even tell you why that is, but we just won't. We've always said we would never give up the shop we're in now If we had something in the same area that was better than maybe. But I would never give up our position in Lee to go work somewhere else.

John Hawker:

Well, I think, especially now, I can't really call it a high street, although it's Lee's version of the high street that you're based on. You're up from around the Broadway onto Lee Road. It's essentially a very long high street, which is what a high street is, but in an age where you don't see the same shop signs for more than a few months at a time like Mango has been there brick and mortar for nine years, and that's what I love about Lee is that you see the same names and you know they're independently run businesses that aren't chains, and I think there's just that. I mean it would be missed. Your shop is so well known in the area It'd be like a glaringly obvious hole that is gone. So there's something about that as well. Yeah and Dean, I've got a closing tradition on the podcast.

John Hawker:

Obviously, there's another quite well known podcast it's marginally better known than mine where the podcast ends with the previous guest asking the current guest a question, and on this particular podcast, it's my mum that asked the questions. Okay, nice. So my mum knows who you are. I've given her a quick bio of who you are. She knows you've cut my hair for a long time, but she doesn't know you personally, and then she will leave me a voice note that I'll play to you with a question. So I don't listen to this voice note before mum does it. Let me just find it. She gave her a bit of notice on this one, which is nice. Usually I'm sort of on the way and go, mum shit Talking to this.

Dean Gleeson:

I need a question.

John Hawker:

Okay, let me see if I can get the volume right. I can only apologise in advance. Some of these are all no problem Hi.

Dean Gleeson:

Dean, in your 20 years of being a barber, how do you cope with children that come in that just don't want to be there? Thank you.

John Hawker:

Now, now Mum's asked this question, I've got a feeling she's referencing me because at four years old four or five years old I was still thrashing around in a barber's chair, absolutely hating life. But yeah, the question is all around how could you deal with kids that don't want to be there?

Dean Gleeson:

I usually go for a really tight head. No, I'm joking. I think it's set in realistic expectations with the parents, Right, yeah, Especially in the past four, five, ten years. A kid's haircut used to be a kid's haircut If it was short than it was.

John Hawker:

when they come in it was a good job. They were happy yeah.

Dean Gleeson:

Whereas now, because of the internet and socials, parents want their kids to have skin fates, so they're not kids' haircuts anymore and it's just not possible. So it's kind of educating the parents on it. I mean, I have a process where I did it with your kids, like bring them in when you get your haircut.

John Hawker:

Yes.

Dean Gleeson:

Let them see you. I mean, think about it from a kid's point of view. You're taking them into an unknown place, to a person they've got no clue about, and they're waving sharp objects around their head. It's not going to be a nice experience, is it no? So I'm very much getting people accustomed to the shop to see it as a positive thing before they're even getting the haircut. So I try to get a lot of dads to bring their kids in prior to getting the haircut. Just sit in the shop and watch them get their haircut, because if they see you getting your hair done, it might kind of lower that barrier of okay, it's not actually that bad. Yeah.

Dean Gleeson:

So when they come in, I'll just brush their hair or I'll turn a hair dryer on near them just to kind of get them into it, and then the first haircut. I won't even pick up clippers, it's just scissor work just to kind of get the length down and get them to. You need to make them believe that they're well not believe, but make them feel that they're in a safe environment if anything.

Dean Gleeson:

But, like your mum said, if you get kids, that you do get it, regardless of what you do. They just don't want to be there and they kick off, and I think it is just. If it's enough's enough, then you just got to stop.

John Hawker:

Accepting defeat.

Dean Gleeson:

Yeah, because you get parents that are like headlocking their kids and just, oh, just do it, just shave it, and what's that going to achieve? You're just going to traumatise the kids. For the rest, of your life.

John Hawker:

Well, you're mostly scarring them for life, aren't you Exactly?

Dean Gleeson:

So that's never going to change All the. The whole mindset they're going to have when they come to the barb shop is that they hate it. So I'd rather think let's call it a day for today, bring it back in next week or tomorrow, whatever, and we'll try again. And it's just, it's patience.

John Hawker:

Yeah, and these are your clients of the future. Doing this is the thing, so they need to be desensitising them. No, don't get me wrong.

Dean Gleeson:

No barber really enjoys cutting young, young kids' hair. Yeah, but that's why you do it, because if all of a sudden I said I couldn't cut your boy's hair, you'd probably go somewhere else because you're not going to have a pain in the arse of taking them somewhere Going through a different barber's hair and you come in to see me. So you've got to see them that, the fact that, yeah, they might be a bit hard work now, but give it 10 years, they're then double the price.

John Hawker:

Yeah, and then it's an investment in your future, and I'll tell you what. As a marketing strategy.

Dean Gleeson:

Mum on a school gate is telling people about their kid's haircut will never spread quicker. It's a very good point, mate. It's a very good point.

John Hawker:

Well, thanks mum for that. It was probably one of the more relevant questions that Tom's asked actually, so I appreciate that. Yeah, good fun. Dean, it has been an absolute pleasure, mate. I know it's late and I know you want to get back home. Thank you for having me. Yeah, it was nice to explore a little bit further like the history and the journey to date, so I really appreciate it.

Dean Gleeson:

Oh, thanks for having me. Thank you.

John Hawker:

Thanks for listening to Jobs Worth. If you enjoyed this episode, please feel free to like and subscribe. You can stay connected by following me on LinkedIn for more insights on the world of work behind the scenes, content and updates on upcoming episodes.

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