JobsWorth

Viva Vino Vero

• John Hawker • Season 2 • Episode 5

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This week I speak with Jaime Fernandez about what led him to trade the security of a 20-year insurance career for the unpredictable yet rewarding world of wine entrepreneurship. This episode's revealing conversation peels back the layers of transforming a passion into a thriving business, with Jaime at the helm of Vino Vero. He takes us through the nerve-wracking leap of faith during a global crisis and the influential role of family support in embarking upon such a venture.

I learn how Jaime and his wife Holly navigate the challenges of running Vino Vero hand in hand. The episode uncovers the unseen aspects of entrepreneurship, from the necessity of a good accountant to the reality of what a 'Sunday scary' feels like when you're the boss. It's an honest look at the sacrifices involved, tempered by the joy of following one's passion.

We also celebrate the vibrant community in Southend-on-Sea, a haven for creatives and independent business owners like Jaime . We discuss how the pandemic shifted work culture and the local entrepreneurial spirit that keeps this area buzzing with innovation and authenticity. Join us for an inspiring episode that may just uncork your own entrepreneurial dreams.

You can find the Vino Vero website here - https://www.vinovero.co.uk/
Follow Vino Vero on Instagram -  https://www.instagram.com/vinoveroleigh?igsh=ZjQxbGpjM2tvZWoy

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John Hawker:

I used to be out in very low. I grew up in the pink toothbrush.

Jaime Fernandez:

Yeah, same, that was my. That was my job Every Friday, Saturday, yeah.

John Hawker:

Every Friday, Saturday Is this? Is this folklore, or is this true? Did they film a porno in the pink toothbrush? I've heard that as rumour.

Jaime Fernandez:

I've never heard that, but it wouldn't surprise me at all.

John Hawker:

Because when it was crocs we're talking about when they actually had like an alligator or a crocodile in. You can Google that for anyone that's interested. Jobs Worth, season 2, episode 5, viva Vino Vero. Welcome to the fifth episode of Jobs Worth, season 2. My guest this time around is Jamie Fernandez, owner of the award-winning Vino Vero, a Leon C-based bottle shop with a focus on organic wine made as simply as possible. I met Jamie when he and his wife Holly acquired Vino Vero from two of my previous guests, charlie and Sam Brown.

John Hawker:

In this episode we talk about the events that led them to take over the business and the reality of transitioning from a stable job in the insurance sector to running a shop in the middle of a pandemic. Jamie is a dad to two young children and deciding to be his own boss, with all the risks and challenges that brings, wasn't easy. But with the support of his wife and his family, he made the bold decision to walk away from a successful career to a life of entrepreneurship, prioritising his own wellbeing and working to find that elusive work-life balance. We discuss whether he's any closer to achieving it. Jamie's passion for wine developed well before he started working in the sector full-time, and he shares some interesting insights into what it was like running a side hustle in a space he was passionate about, and one that would ultimately bring him into the same orbit as Charlie and Sam.

John Hawker:

In this episode, we also explore what it was like taking over the reins of a successful and well-loved business, how the existing client base and staff reacted to the new regime, and what it's like working alongside your partner. So, without further ado, let me introduce you to one half of the dynamic duo running one of the best love places in Leon C. Obviously, they sell alcohol, jamie Fernandez. So there is an opening tradition to the podcast, which is this question when you were younger, what did you want to be when you grew up?

Jaime Fernandez:

I didn't really have the thing I wanted to be. I never really had a thing. But being a footballer, obviously when I was five, six, seven years old, that's what I wanted to be yeah, but in terms of actual, realistic ideas of a profession, yeah, I didn't really have one well, it's fine.

John Hawker:

I mean that question kind of taps into anything like if it was a footballer one of the like. A couple of the guests in season one said footballer and I get it.

Jaime Fernandez:

I was obsessed with football still have used, I mean, who do you support West Ham? Okay?

John Hawker:

cool. I mean, the great thing is I'm not a massive football fan, so this won't trail off into football chat, but it's always interesting. No, that's fine, that's fine with me.

Jaime Fernandez:

But yeah, when I was younger I played football like twice a week, so I was three times a week and then, as I grew, going to most West Ham games home and away, um, so that was quite a big part of of me growing up, but that was the only thing I really wanted to do as a profession. Okay, but I knew realistically I was never good enough. I had trials at Norwich and that ended after about two months and, um, it was never something that was actually realistic or something like that.

John Hawker:

I mean trials at Norwich, though you go a hell of a lot further than most people might do that say they want to be a footballer, so there was something within your reach.

Jaime Fernandez:

Yeah.

John Hawker:

At what age do you think you start to realise that's not a goal that I'm going to reach?

Jaime Fernandez:

I think getting towards like 15, 16,. If you haven't had a, if you're not in some sort of you, if you haven't had a, if you're not in some sort of you've set up, by then you've probably got no chance right, okay but yeah, it was good fun, but it was just one of the things.

Jaime Fernandez:

But when you and when you play with other kids your age at that level and you see how far behind you are, it's I knew pretty quickly after those trials that I wouldn't and you've got to really want it right when you get older, you've got to sacrifice quite a bit.

John Hawker:

I think I was talking about my own experience with a couple of guests last season about that age at secondary school sort of 14, 15 and I had a couple of opportunities to do more with sport than I ended up doing, which is fuck all. I've done nothing with sport in my life past the age of secondary school and I think you even need to be very focused on that as a as a path, or you need a really pushy parent behind you that's getting you out of bed every morning, telling you not to go out and start drinking, telling you to dump girlfriends all these things to try and drive you down that path. I think if you reverse engineer the careers of of people who've done really well in sport, they may have had someone in the area talking to you about that kind of thing.

John Hawker:

A hundred percent, yeah, Okay, I don't know much about your sort of earlier career apart from what I found on LinkedIn, so that seems to be heavily insurance. Is that fair Insurance finance? That kind of world. So can you give me? You mentioned already where you went to school, so Tommy Moore was secondary school that kind of world so can you give me? You mentioned already where you went to school, so tommy moore was secondary school.

Jaime Fernandez:

So tommy moore, secondary school, um, and then I did sick form at tommy moore's as well, yep, um, and that's the point where I started getting into media studies. Okay, so both my parents worked in finance, my dad works um at sant, my mum works at various places doing credit control. So I sort of did the opposite to that route and really enjoyed doing the media studies at GCSE, took it at A-level, done really well, and then applied for university to do media studies as well.

John Hawker:

Oh nice.

Jaime Fernandez:

So I did three years at University of East London doing media studies, but I think, doing the two years GCSE, two years day level, three years degree by that point I'd just given up on media studies and I'd done a couple of work experience at Saatchi and Saatchi's like quite an iconic advertising company in London. But yeah, I walked out after a day and a half. I think, why was that? I realised that the people in that industry, the work involved, just wasn't for me at all Right. So yeah, I did a day, went back for the second day at lunch. I just went out for lunch, literally scarpered as well, never came back, never went back. And I went out for lunch, never came back. Looking back, it was a completely icy thing to do.

John Hawker:

How old were you then? Early 20s yeah yeah, 20, 21. I would have done stuff like that. Yeah, yeah, for sure.

Jaime Fernandez:

Yeah, I got my free lunch tokens and went Day and a half.

John Hawker:

No, but I think again that follows a very common trend on the back of that question like what did you want to do when you grew up? And a lot of people have these romanticised views of what life is going to be like if you choose to go down one route and yeah you only have to experience it for some, sometimes longer than a day and a half, but you just get that feeling that that's not for me, yeah, and it's better for it to happen then yeah than later down the line.

Jaime Fernandez:

I didn't know and I didn't know what I wanted to do. I sort of did my media degree, started applying for jobs as like runners or anything's getting media and bearing my, my, my university class, I think I was one of maybe 110 students in my class, right, so the amount of competition you had for any job that appeared in media studies and that's just your class exactly it's just my class, so that's just one university class, um.

Jaime Fernandez:

So I just got really disillusioned and I think this is this assumption that you get a degree, you can walk into a 35 grand a year job. And that just wasn't the reality, particularly in media studies where there was so much demand um, so many people available. I mean, I was getting offered like 10 grand a year jobs in london. So when you take off your travel getting into that job, you're not left with a lot after that.

John Hawker:

Yeah, no, definitely.

Jaime Fernandez:

I got disillusioned by the whole industry really and that's when I sort of moved into just getting a job locally, getting some money, yeah, and it just happened to be for an insurance company, yeah, and that's where it sort of progressed from there, really, yeah, so you fell into it, like a lot of people do, of people do unintentional. The money was good, people were nice, yeah, job wasn't relatively difficult yeah, um, and usually when I get into something I try to make the best out of it I can by developing, and I ended up taking my insurance exam, so really focused on doing that, moving up, and that was. I started off in chelmsford um royal sun alliance and then, 20 years later, I was still working in insurance.

Jaime Fernandez:

so it's sort of those unintentional things that just spiraled do you?

John Hawker:

when you look at the career guidance that you would have had at the time maybe college? I don't know if it existed. I mean you, you a couple of years older than me, but the career guidance that I got at college doing my a levels were kind of like there were limited options and I think finance or insurance or basically corporate world or finance world in london was one of those ones that you kind of pushed towards you didn't have the exposure to all of the possible opportunities that you've got.

John Hawker:

I think that hopefully there's some career guidance around now. Do you feel like you almost fell? Do you think that was kind of like a? I don't know, and it's no disrespect to the fact you did it, but it's kind of like one of those core routes that a lot of people might have chosen out of college or been forced to go down.

Jaime Fernandez:

I think a lot of people follow what their parents do as well. So most parents say in Essex will generally work in that industry as well.

John Hawker:

Those sort of industries.

Jaime Fernandez:

So back in those days I mean, if you look at now the which you can do that with with the internet, things is massively different to what we had, the options we had, uh like 20, 25 years ago. So I think the options you had and if you wanted to earn money being so close to london, london was the only option you really had- yeah so most kids just fell into it and there was a lot of demand for younger people getting in the industry.

Jaime Fernandez:

So, um, yes, it was difficult one, because you never really had that option, unless your parents worked in a particular field or you wanted to be a teacher or a doctor or a dentist. Those, yeah, those industries, so yeah, I think it's.

John Hawker:

It's a question, I think about a lot, because we've both got kids and your kids. Again, how old are your kids? Uh, seven and four, seven and four, okay, so I've got a five and a two-year-old, so similar kind of gaps, yeah, and um, yeah, I think about what the world of work's gonna look like for them and what guidance they're gonna get.

John Hawker:

And my, my mum, um, was self a self-employed artist and at the time I was like that's not a route I can go down. You need a talent to be able to do that too, but yeah, there just wasn't.

John Hawker:

There wasn't many routes that I think that we were given that access to. No, I want to try and open my kids eyes as much as I can to. It's just so much out there, isn't there really, it's massive, yeah. So I think we've got in my mind I've got a responsibility to try and showcase as much as I can, but, by the god, by the time they're working the machines might have taken over.

Jaime Fernandez:

I'm not sure, I think now you, you can. You can go for options of choosing jobs that you actually enjoy. But, yes, back in back, in those days you didn't, it didn't matter if you enjoyed it or not, you just did it to get money.

John Hawker:

Yeah, um, yeah well, that was it. It was getting on the ladder, wasn't?

Jaime Fernandez:

it. Yeah, you had to get on the ladder, you had to find some way to earn some money and you had to try and build a career, because that's what you were told you had to do is build this career, like you get a job and you move your way up gradually and you stay in that job forever. Yes, and then that that's that's life. Yeah, but it's very different now. You can chop and change, you can try different things. There are different ways of earning money that aren't as conventional as they used to be. Yeah, um, and it's all about what you actually want to do as well, what you enjoy doing, which is a nice position to be in. Okay, we didn't have.

John Hawker:

We didn't have that yeah, it always makes me feel really old when this, when we talk like this, but it's true like generationally yeah there has been a shift and I think people in a much. Yeah, it's still challenging, but people have a lot more options now yeah a lot more information around the routes that they can take. All right, so you, you did 20 years insurance near enough. Yeah, you're still doing insurance work now. I still do a bit of consulting you, dabble yeah, I do.

Jaime Fernandez:

I do a bit never, never full-time and never permanent. But okay I do do a bit, because there is a bit of a shortfall since covid um, and what I did was a bit niche and the demand for people is quite high at the moment. So I do I do do a bit yeah cool. So never, never in terms of affecting what I do with the business. Yeah, that's really important, but it's nice to have the option and the financial benefit of doing doing part-time contract work.

John Hawker:

So, yeah, so you've got a couple of decades in the insurance space, and then what? So talk to me then. What inspires you to buy a wine shop, or specifically vino vero, or was it? You're on the market for wine? What? What is the the story behind that?

Jaime Fernandez:

yeah, so I'd I'd started getting interested in wine probably about four years before we took over, so 2016 I guess and that was just the off chance of doing a wine course in london. So there's, there's the london wine school uh, the wine and spirit education trust, and I'd booked a, an evening class to do the level one. Yep, um, and it's just sort of spiraled from there. Really, I'd always been interested in wine. My family from a wine region in spain, so that's always been part of, like, our family life. Like drinking wine at lunch and dinner. That was just the norm, yeah, um, but I'd never really known much about wine other than you like the taste of it.

John Hawker:

It's like a family thing, family thing.

Jaime Fernandez:

I knew I knew a couple of grapes, a couple of wine regions, just from having that as a normal family part of our life. Um, so I did the wine course, just out of interest. Did level one, loved it. Did level two, loved it even more. Then you get to level three, which is a bit more um, intense in terms of, um, what you need to learn and the exam process. So it was a longer, three, four-month period of studying. Then the exam was like essay questions and a blind tasting, oh wow, so like a four-hour exam. So it was quite intense.

John Hawker:

So by that time, it's whittling out people that are, kind of, you know, serious enough about it. That's an investment, isn't it yeah?

Jaime Fernandez:

So obviously the cost goes up. The investment for study uh, tasting wise is is a lot higher. Um, and I just got obsessed from there really and just sort of spiraled from that and I set up a like a blog doing a lot of writing for american companies and stuff.

Jaime Fernandez:

So this is all whilst you're still working yes, I was still working in the industry, um, and we were going through some changes in the company I was at the time. So they'd just been bought by a big american firm and they got bought again a year later by a big french firm. So I'd started to lose a lot of passion and interest in the insurance side. Right, and it was sort of like that like the wine stuff was getting really interesting. I was going to visit winemakers writing articles for American online publications. Wow, I just really enjoyed it. And then I decided I got to the point in insurance where I really wasn't enjoying working for a huge, because it ended up being AXA buying our company.

John Hawker:

Wow, okay, yeah.

Jaime Fernandez:

When I joined the company in 2008,. I think there was maybe 800 people in our office. So it was a big sizable company but the biggest Lloyd syndicate in the market. And then from that, in the space of eight to 10 years, we'd gone from 800 to however many million work at Axe.

John Hawker:

It's a huge cultural shift, isn't it being part of that?

Jaime Fernandez:

Huge. Actually, it's a huge cultural shift, isn't it? Massive, huge. And that's when I really started to start thinking about what I wanted to actually do, whether this was the right thing for me to do. But at that point obviously had a mortgage, um, I had one child and another on the way maybe, um, and then I thought, right, I'm gonna move company, I'll go to a smaller company, see if it changes my mentality.

Jaime Fernandez:

And at that point I was quite, I wasn't a senior, but I was, uh, management level, so I had a team reporting to me and I moved to a bigger job where I reported this to COO. I had to build a team of eight people. So there's a lot, a lot of pressure. And I just I just hated it, right, um, and that's the point where it sort of clicked that I didn't want to do that anymore and I needed to work around a way of doing something different. Uh, and because I enjoyed the wine thing so much, I thought, right, let's focus on that in my part time and look if I can build it on that and then gradually wean away from insurance. So we set up a company, um, doing local wine tastings, um. So we set up copper wine, which was a um a part-time thing where I'd go from different locations in essex and do pop up.

John Hawker:

This is what I remember now.

Jaime Fernandez:

Yeah, I forgot about the copper wine as its own, as its own thing before vino vero right yeah, and that's how and when I was studying, taking my exams, that's when I got to meet Sam and Charlie at Vino Vero. So I'd get a lot of my wines from the shop to test for my exams. So we'd have to do a lot of tasting at home and there's a lot of owners on you to get bottles, try different styles, different grapes. So I got to know Sam and Charlie really well just from buying wine from them really, and then and charlie really well, just from buying wine from them really. And then when I started a cup of wine, um, I did, they did some wholesale work, so I'd get some, um, wholesale wines for them as well.

John Hawker:

So we it became more of a working arrangement with them as well, yeah, for that point, um, but it was all wine that brought you together. You, you wouldn't unless there was that crossover that you wouldn't have met not, so not in the same circles, yeah, no, not at all.

Jaime Fernandez:

So a couple weren't really well, but obviously it was a once, twice a month.

John Hawker:

So we're talking like it's perfect example of a side hustle. At this stage it's got 100.

Jaime Fernandez:

Yeah, yeah, it was like it was. It was a passion, but I didn't know if I could turn it into a career yeah, an actual job where I can earn enough money to support, like the family. But you had your second child by then so I had my second yes.

Jaime Fernandez:

So at the start of my new job I had the second, and another big factor in it obviously was that, because this job was a lot more senior, I was leaving work at sort of 6am, leaving the house 6am, 6.30, getting home at8 yeah. So you're just missing my son. I found that first six months I never didn't see him, which was like the worst feeling, yeah. But when you're in that position you don't really think about it too much because you can't do anything about it. There's no alternative.

Jaime Fernandez:

The work from home thing wasn't even really an option back then yeah, because this is pre-pandemic, the doors are closed for that yeah, you come to the office, you get in early, you get home late, you do your job and if you have to do extra, that's just. That's just part and part of what it is. It was frustrating because I knew I wanted to get into something else but I was stuck doing something that I had to do because the money was so good and we had a two young family and mortgage and things and it's got.

John Hawker:

I think they call it golden handcuffs, don't they some? Sometimes you just, you know, through through hard graft and time served, you get to a point where you, where you sit there and the exit strategy is hard, because you build up a lifestyle that's reliant on the money and the income that you bring in, and it's a, really it's a. It's a tough balance to get right because, also, there's so much more exposure on this subject now, but, like, if you burn out and if it starts to really impact you in a negatively from a mental health perspective, you're going to be no good to anyone.

Jaime Fernandez:

No, no, yeah, and that's that's the point. It's sort of reached, really, and I knew I had to get out and um, gradually moving. Couple one was was the plan um, so in january 2020, we'd plan to launch an online web store for copper wine. So, despite doing these occasional events and trade fairs and vegan fairs and selling wine work, basically, however we could, we decided to focus on online, get some, like rare, interesting, funkier wines, um, and then have this online store to sell around the uk. Um, so january 2022, we launched it and then march 2020, covid hit, which, for us, was amazing, an amazing thing, because everyone was at home, everyone was buying stuff online, everyone was trying new wines. That's when that that sort of peak of people trying weird, interesting well, we had nothing else to do.

Jaime Fernandez:

The weather was amazing.

John Hawker:

Everyone was just getting pissed every day, what a time to be alive, yeah, yeah, with our walk in the sunshine yeah, it's easy to be glib and it's obviously a real challenging time, but there were some real positives that came from that. I think, yeah, 100%. Not just copper wines.

Jaime Fernandez:

Yeah, exactly yeah, we've done really well out of it.

John Hawker:

No, there was definitely more. It was just more simple. It was less to think about, wasn't it?

Jaime Fernandez:

Yeah, I mean I'd be working from home, trying to make sure the team I was managing could operate from home, because at that point no one works at home. So for the first sort of four weeks of being in that lockdown period was just me firefighting making sure that everyone had what they needed to work from home. So it was like daily conference calls with the whole team. It was just.

John Hawker:

A lot of counselling, I guess for you as a people leader, You're dealing with people's personal stuff.

Jaime Fernandez:

Yeah, and then, yeah, because the shop went so well and before that point I'd already spoken to sam and charlie had approached me about taking over.

Jaime Fernandez:

The universe they didn't know at that point must have been 2019. Yeah, and they knew then that they were looking to, um, have more of a nomadic life and travel around. So they'd approached me about taking over and it wasn't the right time. Um, I was gradually building a cup of wine and it was just too soon. It just didn't work. I looked at it, it didn't work, so I'd left it and then, when covid hit, we then sort of restarted discussions again and, um, we're in lockdown, I'm working, but I'm spending more time with the kids because I was at home so I could take those breaks, I could see the kids a lot more, and I just realised then that life was too short to be traipsing up and down to London every day and doing something I didn't really have a passion for and, despite the fact well, the money it did and it gave us a lifestyle and a home and everything else it just wasn't what I wanted to do.

John Hawker:

I think I had it described by a client to me as like an extended Christmas break, the pandemic in that the gap between Christmas and New Year tends to be where people focus on. Am I going back into the next year doing the same thing again? And we had months of it. We had months of sitting there mulling it all over. Is the life that I was living, the job that I was doing, the one that I want to go back to? Yeah, and it sounds like you went for a similar kind of thought.

Jaime Fernandez:

You're on that journey already, but I think I was, I was 80 there as it was, and covid just over the edge, and I remember having conversations with the coo at the company saying we had like a group meeting saying like we need to flag up people who are going to potentially leave as a result of covid, because we knew, we knew there were some a some older people that might just take it as an excuse say, well, I'm done, that's yeah, I think it happened in a lot of industries yeah, yeah, we had these meetings where we were trying to flag employees up that we think might jump as a result of it, and then I think that meeting just triggered like I'm one of those people but I couldn't actually say that I want to put my hand up.

Jaime Fernandez:

I can't say it to my own boss that it might be me, yeah, but at that point I wasn't really in a financial position to leave it all and then just take up either copper wine or vina vera, because at that point I hadn't decided whether I was going to continue with copper wine and try and get my own retail space and grow the business, or whether I wanted to go towards vina vera and have the safer option of having established customer base. All these like allocation wines that they had have been able to continue that do I want to do that, or build something fresh. And in my head I wanted to carry a couple wine, start my own thing and develop that. But, reality wise, I knew that I needed to go the vina vera route because that was more stable and less risk. Yeah, um, but either way I couldn't really focus on that 100 songs. I knew it wouldn't. It might not give me enough money, it might be consistent, um cash flow. So I just decided my.

Jaime Fernandez:

I had a chat with my parents and they were like you're not happy, just quit. My dad had his own business doing some freelance finance work. He's like come work with me for a bit, do that part time and do the shop part time, just see. So a combination of my wife, um, basically saying that I had to do it and it's a passion you never forgive yourself, you don't do it and her supporting me. And then my parents, um, gave me the option to work with my dad, and then my in-laws as well, offering to financially help as well that's amazing, I was honestly, was incredibly lucky to have the support that I've got with my in-laws, my parents and your wife and.

Jaime Fernandez:

Holly and family and stuff. So I couldn't.

John Hawker:

I definitely wouldn't have done it, risked it without them and I wouldn't have been able to financially afford to do without the support they offered one of my questions was going to be around the support that you had and what were people's reaction when you said you wanted to do it. But you've just answered it there.

Jaime Fernandez:

I think, yeah, I think I'd start a cup of wine and developing it. And even when I had all the the events a cup of wine and going to Rayleigh and Thought Bay and Leon C and having all my friends and extended family turning up to these events and paying their money and buying the wines and stuff I had a massive amount of support anyway. But then to have my in-laws and parents do what they did to get it all up and running, yeah, it was amazing. So, yeah, we were really lucky. Yeah, I think I'd still be full time insurance without those conversations we had back in 2020.

Jaime Fernandez:

That's brilliant, yeah.

John Hawker:

I think, I think, yeah, and you've said lucky to be in a position where you're fortunate to have that support network, especially when it's your other half getting behind you because that's a big. You know if they're against that.

Jaime Fernandez:

There's no chance, yeah.

John Hawker:

I mean you can do it, but if you're in a strong enough relationship where there's that team and that collaboration, you want to both be pushing in the same direction. So for her to bang the drum. I was very lucky from that sense myself when I decided to set up my own agency.

Jaime Fernandez:

I was in a very secure position.

John Hawker:

We just had our first son and my other half knew I wasn't happy. She just said you have to do it because nothing is worth willing, nothing's worth sticking around for if you're just going to be completely miserable every day.

Jaime Fernandez:

Yeah, when you get that little niggle that you want to do something else, it's really hard to to lose it until you actually do it. Um, but it's one of those things I never would have done without that, yeah, pushing, saying that we, we can try it.

John Hawker:

That's brilliant. So you made the decision and it sounds like a strategic one. Maybe the heart was going I want to do copper and I want to carry on building a brand and I get that completely. But maybe the strategic head that you had on the businessman hat was like okay, vino Vero is a known entity, you don't have to go into detail, and I appreciate there's only going to be so much you can share entity. Yeah, you don't have to go into detail and I appreciate there's only gonna be so much you can share. But the the actual process of negotiating the self and existing business hard, easy, smooth sailing. Does it help that you knew charlie and sam as well as you did, or did that make it more difficult it's?

Jaime Fernandez:

um what? Having only bought one business, I can only go by that one experience yeah, of course, yeah for me it was, it was pretty straightforward. Yeah, I mean, it definitely helped that we knew sam and charlie and, like you, had a good relationship, a good relationship with good friends with them, like we had like dinner and drinks with them before our house, their house. Okay, I'd met up with them at their place a few times and they're lovely human beings as well.

Jaime Fernandez:

They're genuinely lovely, they're genuinely lovely people, very knowledgeable, um, and to walk into a business that they a, knowing that I knew that they'd run it and they'd run it well and I wouldn't be walking into a complete shit show, that was always really comforting for us, um, but the whole process was pretty straightforward. They had an asking price. I put forward a price that I thought was appropriate, and then we just went from there yeah it was got start somewhere?

John Hawker:

haven't you both got put on a table before you for?

Jaime Fernandez:

any animosity. There was never any arguments. It was really, oh, it's very numbers based.

Jaime Fernandez:

Sam's comes from a background in IT and more corporate stuff as well so he, he, he knew exactly what the benefits were buying it or selling it from their perspective, um, I could only go by the numbers in the accounts. And then we just sort of just came to an agreement and it was really straightforward. But there was a couple of little bits we had to iron out through the process which altered the final price. But it was always like really amicable and, I think, where most people would feed everything through their solicitors. If we had any issues we'd just call each other or text each other or email each other um.

Jaime Fernandez:

So it was.

John Hawker:

It was a really easy process for us, yeah because, yeah, you had those two routes to go down with building your own business with your own name and no sort of legacy behind it other than what you'd built for yourself, and then inheriting someone else's to a degree.

Jaime Fernandez:

Yeah, the romance side of it for me was to build my own brand, but you have to sort of get out of that headspace a little bit. And what's best for us and not just me, because Vinavera was not my business in the vera was a name they had, but we've we adopted it and changed it based on what we would have done with copper wines.

Jaime Fernandez:

so yeah, it's a bit of a it's a it's a good, best of both worlds scenario, really. So we had the security of knowing, we had a client base and we had these existing relationships with importers and we get these the best prices and stuff, because sam and charlie bought a really really good business, um, and for us it was all about taking that and what can we do to it, to a better it and b make it our own.

John Hawker:

Well, that's the important bit for me that and that's what I was going to ask you about is in in acquiring someone else's business and acquiring vino vero. Now I I know sam and charlie. I used to work with vino vero in the previous guys yeah, yeah.

Jaime Fernandez:

So what's?

John Hawker:

it like when you're inheriting that kind of legacy of clients, of name, of bricks and mortar. How do you go through that process of kind of respecting the legacy it's already got while trying to put your own stamp on it? Did you in the nicest possible way? Did you have to? Was it in your mind that you wanted to respect whether you know vero had come from, or did you really just want to move forward, keeping the name and putting your own signature?

Jaime Fernandez:

on it for us. We didn't really think about it at all, we just wanted to do what we wanted to do. So it was is a difficult one, because we everyone knew he'd been nevero, everyone knew what they were all about and, in in the essence, what we've done. We haven't really changed much of what it was. In terms of visuals, it looks very different to what it was before. Yeah, I remember the rebrand.

John Hawker:

I remember, yeah, yeah, yeah, it was great we didn.

Jaime Fernandez:

But we didn't really think about people's perception of what the change would be. We didn't really think about other people. We just did what we wanted to do and that was almost done blindly, not really thinking about any reaction, because we just wanted to present a business of how we would have done it anyway, regardless if it was Vinavera or Copperwine or any other business. So it was a weird one and probably the best way to think about it was just to do what we wanted to do, because you tend to overthink things and think about how people are going to react to changes and yeah, so it's a really weird one. It's a tough one, isn't it?

John Hawker:

Did you get any feedback from existing customers? Did you get any feedback from existing customers? Did you get any feedback on the transition? I guess you might not have known if you were losing customers coming through the door or whatever. I think because we took over during a lockdown.

Jaime Fernandez:

it was such a weird period you weren't seeing people face-to-face anyway were you really, when we first took over, I think they just relaxed. The first first we took over in october 2020, so it was we might have been slipping back into the next one yeah, that's right.

Jaime Fernandez:

Yeah, because we we were seven people at the door so we had a bench across the front door so people could come in and point like they were. At some I remember that I would score petrol station exactly. Yeah, it was just weird because I mean, for us it was quite a good transition into the business because we didn't have loads of people coming through the door we could sort of we didn't have to worry about how everything looked, so we just had stuff everywhere we were delivering, like with deliveries, like every day, so we're out on the road quite a lot. And then the sort of the law slightly relaxed over the time we were there. Then we we went back. I mean we planned to reopen the bar area. We bought loads of food and loads of cheese and meats and things Got ready to launch back, open for the evenings, drinking again, and then they announced the second lockdown.

John Hawker:

I remember coming into the shop at that time, face masked up and distance between us.

Jaime Fernandez:

And you talking about it, the mask. We didn't recognise people, so they didn't recognise us.

John Hawker:

So the whole time we were first in there, we all had masks on and haircuts that we wouldn't necessarily have been proud of at that time.

Jaime Fernandez:

Yeah, I had some sort of Lego man haircut and a face mask on, so by the time that all relaxed, it's a lot of baseball caps back then. A lot of caps, a like masks, so you could just see like beady eyes. That was pretty much it. So, yeah, um, so it really it's a really really weird time to take over a business. But looking back now, it probably was the best time to take over um, because we didn't have that pressure of having people in the shop the whole time. We could pretty much relax and do that with deliveries, get used to ordering stock and then gradually get the business to the position that we wanted to be in terms of how it looked yeah, yeah, so you.

John Hawker:

So just the chronology again you bought the business when went through in october 2020, october 2020, yeah, so okay, discussions had started to happen at a very high level in 2019 wasn't the right time.

Jaime Fernandez:

Yeah, that kind of, that kind of stamp, yeah, early early 19 I think it was we had a up in sam and charlie's house and had a chat. Then we looked at it. It wasn't going to work and we didn't want to rush into anything, so we put it on hold and then they had discussions with other people and then end of 19 started 20. I was having second thoughts again and we'd launched a website. In january 2020, covid hit and then that was when I really realized that I didn't want to be in insurance and that's when we started discussing again, like april 2020, I guess may 2020, yeah what happened to be doing it?

Jaime Fernandez:

yeah, yeah, there's nothing else to do. Exactly.

John Hawker:

You can really give it some focus. Yeah, so what do you feel like opening a business in during one of you know for the high street, for you know bricks and mortar businesses? Do you feel like you learnt a lot as a business owner for the first time, having run like a bricks and mortar business, at the very least about resilience, about you know, staying strong through what can be well, what was, for a lot of people, a really challenging time.

Jaime Fernandez:

I mean, for us it was like one of the best times, like financially, because people were at home with spare cash and they were buying lots of alcohol. So I know a lot of people going through a really hard time with not being able to be open. But even the pure lockdown. We were classed as central business, yeah, so we were.

John Hawker:

They really were as well.

Jaime Fernandez:

Yes, they were. Sam and Charlie were out like every day delivering, yeah. And then when we took over that, for for alcohol in general and different wines and people, things, people start had they had that extra bit of cash, they could spend 17 pounds on a bottle rather than the usual 12 pounds a bottle. And when you make that leap, that extra five pounds, is like pure quality. Yeah. When you multiply that, yeah, yeah, exactly, yeah. So five bottles of 12 pound wine compared to five bottles of 17, 18, 19 pound, one is a big jump. Yeah, and people that took that um extra bit of cash to spend it on wine, going back to those 12 pound bottles is quite difficult because you get used to that extra bit of quality, yeah, um. So for for vinavero, it was a really good. Likeero it was a really good like.

Jaime Fernandez:

Financial-wise it was a really good time, which is hard to admit when you see so many other businesses going through. Like, really, really like really struggling.

John Hawker:

Yeah, it's all relative and you can only describe your own experience.

Jaime Fernandez:

Yeah, 100%.

John Hawker:

In the context of the time, I do think because there was Hoppily, which is now definitely, from a bricks and mortars perspective, not there anymore. We did a lot with Mark and Hopperley. I really love Mark and Cheryl as well. They're really good people.

Jaime Fernandez:

We did a lot of stuff with them. A cup of wine doing a lot of like joint wine boxes and beer boxes and stuff.

John Hawker:

So we did a lot they went for a real boom, didn't they?

Jaime Fernandez:

online wise, yeah, line wise, yeah I mean Mark did loads of work for us and the guys there and they were really instrumental in us like pushing our local awareness of us as a brand and stuff. So yeah, so yeah, it was interesting time, alcohol wise, and being in the class of essential was a really big thing, otherwise I wouldn't be open at all.

John Hawker:

Well, we, I spoke to Dean from Mengo, a barber that owns Mengo for anyone that hasn't listened to that episode yet by the time this airs. But barbers were closed for eight months, seven, eight months, with a tiny window of time when they were open in between. And we're talking about the times where he was just like, yeah, there was days where he wanted to give up and just say, yeah, this isn't working. And what's the fallback? Maybe not during a pandemic, maybe just since having a business? Have there been times where you've been tested to the point where you've just thought this isn't worth it?

Jaime Fernandez:

I think so. I think when you get used to working in insurance and getting paid well, and on some days you're literally doing nothing, and still getting paid and still getting paid. Well, and on some days you're literally doing nothing and still getting paid, still getting paid for it. And going on holiday, and still getting paid for it. Uh, getting health care private health care for my kids, yeah, included. Having a seven times pension all those little things you do take for granted. When they're gone you realize what big things they actually are.

John Hawker:

Yeah, as you get older, the value of those benefits yeah um.

Jaime Fernandez:

So there's definitely times in the last, I mean, we've we've been at vienna very for nearly or just over three years. Three years, four months, yep, um, there's not been any times where I've regretted doing it at all, um, but there's definitely times where I think the effort you put into it and the work you do to get the business um where it is, and the financial return you get from that, the disparity is pretty huge has it?

John Hawker:

has it changed your relationship with wine? Do you still love it? Do you still? Would you still claim you're passionate about wine? A hundred percent.

Jaime Fernandez:

Yeah, yeah, yeah, even more so. But I, I drink far less. Right, I used to because I have to drink, because we test every wine before it hits the shelves, yeah, so we, we try a lot of wine, yeah so, um, it's not the healthiest lifestyle if you're actually drinking all of it no, exactly. Yeah, if you're you, if you're not spitting for it, you'll be in trouble, 100%. That's. That's where that old like image of people who drink wine big red noses yeah, that's that's not.

John Hawker:

Doesn't happen anymore yeah, so you're still. You're still as into it, if not more than than when you start. Yeah 100%.

Jaime Fernandez:

It's one of those things I love learning so and in wine you literally it's a constant learning curve. There's always new things coming out. What I know about wine is probably it's a tiny compared to all these bars of wine and all those guys are still learning because there's new things coming out. There's new great varieties being recovered, there's different ways of making wine.

John Hawker:

There's different methods involved it's just one of those things that's always evolving, so that ability to continually learn in in the profession is really important, and that's definitely what we have in the wine industry yeah I think it's just an interesting point because I I think there's a lot of people out there that tell people almost recklessly to follow their passion and turn it into a career. It's not going to work for everyone. Um, I think it's great if you can do it. It's kind of a privileged position to be in for a lot of people if they can take something they're passionate about and turn it into a money-making enterprise. Yeah, but I always wonder for the people that do manage it, does it detract anything? But from what you're saying? It hasn't. For me it hasn't?

Jaime Fernandez:

I mean there's a lot. There's people who have lots of passions. I've had multiple passions and some of that I wouldn't want to send into a career. I've tried different bits and when I got to the point where I knew I wanted to get out of insurance, I was watching a lot of Gary Vaynerchuk and stuff. Yeah, yeah, him saying just try stuff, just find out what your passions are.

John Hawker:

Try them, because Find out what your passions are, try them, because even if that's your passion, it might not be a passion you want to pursue as an actual thing. Or commoditize, productize whatever.

Jaime Fernandez:

Yeah, 100%. So that's the whole route that I took was trying stuff that I was into and seeing what worked, and if nothing worked, then I knew that I'd at least tried. Yeah, but yeah, finding something you're passionate about and turning that into a career is really rare. So I do feel very lucky that we've found something that works financially and that I really enjoy doing, get a lot from.

Jaime Fernandez:

Because, yeah, I mean, I remember some days where I'd literally dread like Sunday evenings I'd be like in bits. So yeah, having something where you wake up and you actually really look forward to going in and like still get if we get a new wine in or we get an allocation of rare wines. I literally had like two boxes arrived this week and I've been in the shop today.

Jaime Fernandez:

It's like like a kid at a sweet shop like literally buzzing that there's new wines coming that I've never tried before and we've got allocation of rare wines and stuff. It's yeah, it's good there's.

John Hawker:

There's so much to be said for going out and doing something on your own, whether you're passionate about or not. I'm not passionate about recruitment, I can tell you that much. But I, the autonomy and the freedom, the flexibility I get from running my own thing, yeah, I don't get that sunday dread anymore and at the times I do, I realize I have to change something about what I'm doing. Unfortunately, I've got all the freedom in the world to make those changes. I think when you've got managers and directors and like you would have in in the industry you're operating in, you just have the lack of control and I think that's what can lead to a big thing yeah, that dread, that's those.

John Hawker:

I call them Sunday scaries. Whenever I put posts on LinkedIn, you know it's that feeling like shit. I need to go to work tomorrow.

Jaime Fernandez:

Did you have that in your when you worked for an agency? Oh, 100% yeah.

John Hawker:

I mean, I felt like that for a good 18 months before I actually left, and I left without having made the decision that I was going to settle on my own. I just literally got into work one day and thought I cannot be this miserable anymore and my son was approaching a year old and I was just. Even when I was with him, I wasn't there, just wasn't, you know, wasn't mindful, wasn't present, and the minute I made the shift. Don't get me wrong, there were stressful days and there are times where I'm you could argue I'm less present because I'm so I don't know my mind's everywhere, because I'm focused on something going on with the business, but it's my stress.

Jaime Fernandez:

It's not anyone else having a go at me. Yeah, yeah, it's my own stuff. Yeah, and that was one of the, I think, naive parts I had about running a business was that I saw vinavero. I saw a shop that was open from like 11 to 6. That's gonna be it. That's good what. I go to the gym in the morning, I can meet friends for a coffee and stuff. Yeah, that 11 to 6 period is like the the smallest part of what you do. I say most nights I'm doing some sort of work Most mornings and obviously doing some consulting work as well. At times it's really hard to juggle stuff, but that's that element of novelty that I had about the whole running a business. You don't think about invoicing, you don't think about payroll, you don't think about like last night I was in the shop. I wasn't supposed to be working, but I was in there trying new dishes for a new menu and stuff. It's all those little things that you don't see on the outside, that you don't realise are happening.

John Hawker:

Then you find out pardon the expression, but you find out how the sausage is made, basically, don't you? You look under the surface, you're like shit, this is a lot, a lot.

Jaime Fernandez:

There's a lot involved in my own business that people don't see um. So when, like, people get pissed off they haven't responded to an email within three minutes and stuff it's like people don't realize a tiny part of what we do yeah you're lucky I've even read it that long responded to it it's yeah, it's weird talking about then the side that people don't see.

John Hawker:

You mentioned holly, your wife, earlier. What is it like working with holly, or was it like, again, I think, a lot of people that may be thinking about going down that route of having their wife or their spouse, their partner, as a business partner. I don't know how much you want to share, but what's that like?

Jaime Fernandez:

for for me it's, it's great. Yeah, she might answer differently. Well, I was going to ask that question as well and I was going to ask what if?

John Hawker:

if you asked holly what's the most challenging thing to work about you, what do you think work with you, what do you think she'd say I'm a miserable prick. At least you're being honest yeah, yeah has there been? Has there been tensions? I'd assume there's tensions, like there are in any relationship, but do you feel like it's magnified when you're running a business together?

Jaime Fernandez:

I don't think so. No, I mean, she does a lot for the business and a lot, of, a lot of the behind the scenes stuff that people don't see.

John Hawker:

She does an incredible amount of like different things like payroll and we were saying like more the operational back office side is a lot of that's proper operational side.

Jaime Fernandez:

Yeah, I mean things like at christmas we get a lot of corporate orders and she literally she's a machine like, because she was a pa um for many, many years. So she worked at really um big companies to be in pa for quite senior management level people. So her organization level skills are like off the charts and mine are like the opposite.

John Hawker:

So for us it works out really well.

Jaime Fernandez:

So I can like really focus on the wine side of the business and because she's like super organised and the balance is there for us, I think it depends on the people you've got in that relationship and how it would work for us it works really well.

Jaime Fernandez:

Yeah, um, and I I literally couldn't if I mean, if I didn't have her support and doing that bit for me, I would literally be non-stop. I wouldn't. I wouldn't have time for consultancy work, I'd be. I'd be non-stop doing, um, the embarrassed, because I mean all theancy stuff you have to do and all the allocations and that's a massive job, vat returns and we've got some really good accountants that help massively. So, yeah, we use KCA accountants in Lernercy and they're just epic. Yeah, and that's really important when you're running a business, getting good accountants. It's advice. I've given to a lot of people that ask me about advice and it's massive. And when you see that amount coming out of your account every month, it's not a nice amount to say. I mean it's never, it's never huge anyway. But I mean you think about what you could be doing with the money you pay for these people but in reality, in the long run, what they do for you in terms of saving you time effort it's massive.

Jaime Fernandez:

Yeah, um, so yes, for us it works really well.

John Hawker:

Um, but yes, yeah, I dread to think how I'd be if I had to do all of it, because it's it's it's it's a question I ask a lot of people that I've interviewed that are part of a partnership and are, yeah, whether they're in a relationship or just business partners. I think the common theme is that one person has a particular strength that the other person doesn't have, so it balances out. If you're great at the same things, then you completely you know I'd argue Sam and Ed from the local merchants that are coming in. They've both got very different sets of skills which holistically together make them a perfect pairing. I think that's what you see with successful business partners they level out to be a really good mix, so that's really good to hear that's the case with Holly, because it helps when it's your wife as well, massively.

John Hawker:

Yeah, we've mentioned we talked about the fact you're a dad. It sounds like now running Vino Vera, you've got a much better balance yeah Work and life and being a parent being present than you did when you were working insurance. Yeah, do you have to be conscious about how you balance it or does it just work out? Or do you have to put things in place now To know you're spending time with your children, to know you're doing stuff and being present? Do you think about it that much?

Jaime Fernandez:

Definitely. Yeah, I think for us it just seems to work. I mean, I don't spend a lot of time in the shop itself, so You've got an amazing, like your employees are amazing.

John Hawker:

Every time I go in, there's one particular guy. Is it Ollie? Ollie, yeah. Ollie is one of the best people to have front of house in that shop. He's incredible, if you've been in Vinovero.

Jaime Fernandez:

you know, Ollie, Long years cash.

John Hawker:

One of the most energetic communicators I've ever known. I know it's not just Ollie, but he tends to be there when I am. Yeah, so you've got some great front of house people we inherited a great team.

Jaime Fernandez:

We've added to the team. So for me, I never wanted to be in a shop full time. That was never the aim. Running a wine business was always what I wanted to do, and Vinavera was part of that. So when we looked at doing something, it was always here's our five year plan. This is a business, it's not a shop, so there's going to be lots of different elements. The shop's an aspect of it. There's lots of other things that I want to do around wine. So import importing was the big one. So importing wine from from europe, mainly spain, when did you introduce that?

John Hawker:

because obviously vino vera imports is a is a big thing now yes.

Jaime Fernandez:

So sam and charlie did a bit of importing. So we had some existing relationships that they set up. We didn't really develop on those because we we just sort of left because covid happened, it sort of died off a little bit. Anyway, we didn't really want to pick up any imports from what they were looking at again to start our own thing. And I had a few friends and contacts who made wine in spain anyway. Um, but importing direct was a really big thing, really big part of our five-year plan. So we started doing that must have been 21, late 21. And I have some friends in Northern Spain that make some wine and they'd just ended ways with their importer, who's based up in Edinburgh.

Jaime Fernandez:

I asked if I could bring some wine over and then they said yes, and then it sort of spiraled from there again another spiral out of control, and now we've got like 15 wineries that we import direct amazing um, and we've probably added another two or three this year as well so, so that doesn't necessarily drag you into the shop. So, talking about that balance again, of being balanced, being a dad, and running a business is a lot easier because I have that team.

Jaime Fernandez:

We have the team at vinavero um, where I don't need to be there that often so I do maybe two shifts a week, right, only more if I live on holiday, um, but yeah so, yeah, so I do maybe 14 hours a week in the shop, so not a lot. It's usually one Tuesday and one weekend, yeah, nice. And to have that level of trust in the team where I can just not turn up for six days and be completely happy that everything works correctly and there's no issues is a massive thing for us.

John Hawker:

Yeah, how secure that must make you feel. I think that's one of the biggest worries for people. Managing other people, yeah, you don't trust.

Jaime Fernandez:

There's a level of trust in just not just in terms of, like, people taking money or or stock or stuff, because I've seen that other businesses um but we trust every single person in that team, like with personal and business related stuff. It's it's not like we trust them to be in the shop on their own. We I trust them with anything. I'm looking after the kids, anything. They're all incredible people. We're really lucky to have a team like we do. We all get them really well. Yeah, it's not. We don't dread working with any individual in the shop like if you're on shift and in the night with them.

Jaime Fernandez:

We're really lucky. I mean, we're talking about developing the business and growing outside of Essex and raising our profile outside of Essex and stuff, and because we were awarded 41st best independent wine shop this year, I saw this yeah, congratulations.

John Hawker:

That's amazing.

Jaime Fernandez:

And that's all down to those guys really because the level of customer service that people experience in that shop. It's why, if you look at TripAdvisor, if you look at Google reviews, if you look at all these aspects of reviewing experiences in our um, in our shop, it's all like 4.95.

John Hawker:

Because because of those people, well, every time I've been in to Vino Vero, and I think this was a quality that that Sam and Charlie had when they were running it you felt like you were the only person in there yeah, and it could be three or four people browsing the shelves, but and even if that was the case, it's something as small as saying I'll be with you in a moment. That doesn't happen nearly as much anymore yeah especially when you're in a small shop.

John Hawker:

Feeling ignored or not feeling addressed is like you. You'll notice that it's glaringly obvious. But yeah, you walk into vino vero. For anyone that hasn't, I would highly recommend you do it and you will feel like the only person in there and you'll walk out knowing something you didn't.

John Hawker:

Whether you like it or not, you will walk out yeah something about the bottle of wine, the provenance of it, the history behind it, the history of the vineyard it is. It is an experience, I would say a really positive one. Yeah, you can't really pop in for a quick no, I mean you can.

Jaime Fernandez:

I mean you can, but, but I would say give yourself 10 minutes yeah it's going to be an experience that's.

Jaime Fernandez:

That's that's the main area where we can add value, because I mean, there's there's lots of wine shops in lee, there's other, there's obviously majestic and south and there's all these other wine businesses, but we have um, four members of the team um qualified up to level three wct. Yeah, that's rare in london, let alone leon, seen in a small town outside london netics but to have four members of staff who are fully trained up to level three is is massive for us. Yeah, um, so we're very lucky. And where we add value is talking about and understanding where this wine comes from. Yeah, it's not just a bottle of wine, for us it's, it's everything. There's there's history behind, there's a family behind it.

John Hawker:

People really want to understand where the products come from, yeah, the source of stuff, the provenance of it, the sustainability aspect of it as well. It's massive.

Jaime Fernandez:

Yeah, so the people have been thinking about organic food for years and years and how that impacts their bodies and stuff. But people have now realised and that should extend to what you're drinking as well and when we talk about what is added to wine and subtracted from wine in big commercial wineries, compared to all the wines that we offer, which is essentially fermented grape juice nothing added, nothing taken away that's becoming a really important thing for people. Which is essentially fermented grape juice nothing added, nothing taken away. That's becoming a really important thing for people understanding A what's in the wine and B who made it. They want to know the family that made it, if they had a dog or a cat or whatever all those little things that matter.

Jaime Fernandez:

And the fact that we import a lot of them. We go to these wineries. We know the families really well. We speak constantly, we're visiting them all the time. I think it's storytelling isn't it?

John Hawker:

we buy into that. We buy into storytelling and that's what you get when you go in and and speak to any of the staff.

John Hawker:

You'll get a story behind it and the history of it yeah, so that that allows me to not spend time as much time there and allows me to build the import company, um, do some contract work in the city if I want to, and then obviously most importantly, and spend time with family, yeah, so yeah, I was going to ask you if you've got any advice for any sort of parent I don't know if it's the right title, I'm just going to say it parent entrepreneurs so people that are maybe thinking about diving in and setting up a business, but they've got a young family and are worried about getting that balance right. Is there a piece of advice that you can share, or is it just a case of being mindful being mindful about getting that balance, because I think there's a sacrifice. We all have to sacrifice something in pursuit of something we're passionate about yeah we can't all have flexibility without sacrificing something.

John Hawker:

Can't have everything without giving nothing.

Jaime Fernandez:

Any advice you can give. I think, if you're, whatever job you do if I was still in insurance, if I was working at Vinovero there's always an element of sacrifice to what you have to do with your family. It's always going to happen. So if you've got a passion about something, you might as well sacrifice that time and that um relationship by doing something you actually enjoy. Um, there's never one unless you're a millionaire there's never one scenario that allows you to be with a family full-time and spend a lot more time with them. Yeah, you need you're gonna need to work more often than not, so, um, everyone's gonna be completely different. Every scenario is different.

Jaime Fernandez:

So you can only go by your gut feeling things, and if there's that little niggle there that makes you want to do something else, then you generally have to go for it. Um, but it's all about. For me, it was all about finding a balance and doing it gradually. It's never going to be a big leap for me, because I was in a different position. Um, I had to do it gradually, make sure that I was doing it at the right time, making sure there wasn't a negative impact on my family and my own personal health as well. So it's really subjective, but I'd say, get a good accountant.

John Hawker:

Yeah, that's a really good point yeah support from your family.

Jaime Fernandez:

You need buy-in from them and support, and if you've got that niggle, then you just need to do something about it.

John Hawker:

So many people have given that advice and they always almost say it and understand then the privilege that you have from saying if you get a niggle, do something about it. But it's true because most people I have on have done that, they've pursued it and it's worked out and it and it can work out, and it's that all the cliche quotes and advice that you get, which is all around you know, would you rather regret doing something or regret there being never having tried it? Yeah, and it sounds kind of glib and it sounds like, well, yeah, of course you'd say that it's worked out for you guys, but there is some sense behind it%. Yeah, I think I really like what you're saying as well. If you're going to sacrifice time for your family, let it be for something you're passionate about.

John Hawker:

Because, then hopefully what you'll have is energy that you're taking from work rather than giving it to a big employer, making money for someone else and going home and being miserable.

Jaime Fernandez:

That was the feeling I had in the first lockdown. I was literally locked in a room in my house working, literally going up there, like even in lockdowns, working seven to seven basically. But I was in a room on my own, constantly working, and I was like what the fuck? Where's the fucking point of this? What am?

Jaime Fernandez:

I doing yeah, what am I doing? And then the thought of going back to that old way of like getting the train to london now every day seems so alien to me. Yeah, it doesn't make sense at all. Why would you waste like three hours? I live in shoebury, so it's an hour and five ten minutes on the train. Ten minute walks a station, ten minute walk the other end. Yeah, that's over three hours of your day spent on the train. Time, money, mental capacity, four grand a year for that.

John Hawker:

Yeah, that's the point. Yeah, that's really, and that will resonate with a lot of people now, especially with what I'm seeing in the corporate world this huge drive for people to go back into the office. Yeah, everyone's harping on about it all the time. Um, all right, jamie, I've got this running theme, as I mentioned earlier on, when we're having the conversation about most people that are coming in. Well, everyone in season 2, all the guests I'm having in are either entrepreneurs, business owners or creatives based in and around Leon C and South End. You've named a few people that are going to be guests on the podcast. Do you think there's anything? I mean, I'm always amazed by the number of independents on Lee Broadway, lee Road and those surrounding areas. Is there? Am I mad, or is there something about this area that draws people to?

Jaime Fernandez:

it I. I had this conversation a few times. I don't understand it at all. It's just. This is the town in essex. It doesn't make any sense to have this many but do you think there is a high number?

John Hawker:

it feels like there's a high number of independents and entrepreneurs and business owners in this little pocket of Essex.

Jaime Fernandez:

Yeah, I do, I've got Lee's a weird one. For me it's quite a frustrating place. Yeah, I'd agree, but it's just a little hotbed of really cool people that are really good at what they do. I mean, it talks about the guys and our on our little little strip of of shops and when you look at what they're doing for their little industry they're like for me they're. They're doing what we do in wine. They're. They're folk, they're so obsessed with what they do and making the best things available in that.

Jaime Fernandez:

So look at andy's coffee shop. If you look at the guys at the end, they've been out in Milan and Florence the last couple of weeks buying stuff. They're going at source. Andy's going to London all the time to train coffee and working out what's the best. They're obsessed with finding the best stuff and unique stuff, which is really rare. But then I don't know. Lee for me, is just a weird one. Yeah, it's, and some elements it's amazing, I think. Other stuff, it just needs a lot of work. Um, it has this whole perception of being shoreditch on c, but I just don't see that at all I haven't heard.

John Hawker:

I haven't heard it. Yeah, shoreditch and c, there's definitely some crossovers. There's definitely some some similarities there. But yeah, I think I mean and and I like the fact you've kind of shown a lot it's not all positive like this pocket isn't, isn't? It isn't all positive around here. There's a lot of I think it can be quite superficial, can be a bit skin deep in in areas, but I do think there is what I love about it is the people going out and doing things for themselves, yeah, and punching above their weight a lot of the time.

Jaime Fernandez:

I mean there's certain places they're really focused on, like the products and stuff, but I think you sometimes get lost in the glossiness of image, the Instagram-ness.

John Hawker:

Yeah.

Jaime Fernandez:

We look at people like Emma and James at Yugo's and stuff, what they're doing with pizza and how they're focusing a lot on the products and how they're putting Instagram posts up about what tomatoes they use or what flour they use, because those details matter, yeah, um, but I think a lot of businesses don't do that. They're just more concerned with looking good on Instagram rather than focusing on what products they're selling. Um, and there's just there's just so many people like a pasta nostra and people are really focused on higher quality projects rather than it looking good on Instagram and stuff.

John Hawker:

And you can literally I don't think you can walk more than 20, 30 feet before you've hit another independent. That have got some sort of focus on the product. Yeah, yeah, hopefully by the end of all the conversations I have, I've got some sort of answer that groups all of this together.

Jaime Fernandez:

yeah, why it all sort of ends up in the letter.

John Hawker:

I just don't know so strange, isn't it? Yeah? Cool alright, jamie. Well, I've got one more question. Is the closing tradition on the podcast? If that's alright, I won't put you on the spot and you might have listened to episodes or not, but my closing tradition is that you get a question from my mum. My mum plays quite a big part of all my marketing when I do recruitment. Don't ask me why. She's just cannon fodder for me most of the time.

Jaime Fernandez:

Is this a bespoke question, phil? Is it just the bespoke for you?

John Hawker:

yeah, and I can only apologize for what she's going to ask. I don't listen to the voice note, I just have it comes to the phone and then I play it, is it?

Jaime Fernandez:

discount request.

John Hawker:

Should have mentioned that to her. Let me have a look. Right, I'll get it up. I tell you. I apologize in advance. I play it down the speaker so, um, my producer tom can hear it. But hi, jamie, what do?

Jaime Fernandez:

you do, what do I do?

John Hawker:

what do you do? Leave your neck brief hanger right, let's go. If you get a customer who comes in and wants to taste too many wines, shall we say, and ends up a little bit, inebriated thanks.

Jaime Fernandez:

Thanks, mum, appreciate that one yeah, so it's lisa.

John Hawker:

If you wanted to address your answer to to lisa, lisa um has that ever happened?

Jaime Fernandez:

it, it hasn't actually, oh nice you're doing well yeah, I mean we don't we always, because we've got bar area, we always have at least like 15 to 18 boxes open, so we sometimes do give out um little samples but no one's taking a piss. No one's gone mad.

John Hawker:

No, no, no, we're quite lucky I think mum's probably talking about her own experience.

Jaime Fernandez:

Yeah, clearly yeah yeah, no, we've, we've been all right. Actually we're.

John Hawker:

We don't tend to get many drunk people it's the clientele that you're aiming for, isn't it really?

Jaime Fernandez:

yeah, more refined drinking experience then, well, that's why we're so expensive yeah, we price ourselves out the market really um. But yeah, I think people can only afford one glass of wine in our shop oh well, it's all worth it, mate, it's all worth it mate, it's all worth it, yeah, yeah. No, we're quite lucky. So we do a few samples and we tend to do like three pour Fridays and stuff. Yeah, nice, give out some free bits, but never to the point where we have to carry people out.

John Hawker:

That one's sort of falling out the door. Not yet not yet. Well, there you go, mum and personal experience into the questions please, jamie.

Jaime Fernandez:

It's been really lovely having you.

John Hawker:

It's been a really lovely conversation and, yeah, I can't wait to get it out there. Thank you, thanks for having us. Cheers man, thanks mate, thanks for listening to Jobsworth. If you enjoyed this episode, please feel free to like and subscribe. You can stay connected by following me on LinkedIn for more insights on the world of work behind the scenes, work behind-the-scenes content and updates on upcoming episodes.

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