JobsWorth: People People

Embarking on a career journey can often feel like deciphering a map without a legend, but Carly Ash has turned each twist and turn into a roadmap for cultivating inclusive company cultures. When faced with personal trials, including a breast cancer diagnosis amidst the chaos of a global pandemic, she not only endured but emerged as a beacon of resilience and empathy. From the dreams of childhood to the realities of leading people operations in a tech startup, Carly's narrative unfolds, offering a treasure trove of insights into adaptability and emotional intelligence in the corporate realm.

Her story is a testament to the role of People Operations in steering companies through crises, fostering purpose-driven employment, and igniting a passion for sustainability in the workforce. Carly’s voice in our discussion underscores the reality that our careers are less about the destination and more about how we grow and lead others through the journey.

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Chapters

• 0:01 Building Company Cultures With Carly Ash
• 11:54 Exploring Career Paths and Work-Life Balance
• 18:11 Personal and Professional Evolution
• 22:12 Evolution of Career Goals
• 25:46 Career Changes and Resilience
• 33:57 Navigating a Startup During a Pandemic
• 41:11 Breast Cancer Diagnosis and Treatment
• 51:57 Empathy and Empowerment Through Adversity
• 1:00:55 Leading Through Crisis and Building Community
• 1:06:40 Building Company Culture With Purpose
• 1:11:54 Building a Strong Organizational Culture
• 1:16:55 Evolution of Workplace Values and Skills
• 1:25:05 Mum's Closing Question

Transcript

John Hawker: 0:01

Jobsworth People People. Welcome to Jobsworth People People a series of conversations with a specialist charged with building great company cultures. This week, I speak with Carly Ash, a people leader with over 12 years of experience working with start-up businesses and established organizations alike. I get Carly's view on the evolution of the role of people operations, ask why she's so passionate about helping businesses build diverse and inclusive cultures, and explore why the role she plays in an organization is more important than ever but so often undervalued. We also discussed what it was like to land a role at a tech startup in an emerging industry during the first lockdown whilst juggling motherhood and not not long after a breast cancer diagnosis that would change her life forever. Whether you're a people person yourself, a business leader looking for some expert insight or anyone interested in hearing more about one of the most resilient people I've ever spoken to, this is well worth a listen. So the opening question is when you were, what did you want to be when you?

Carly Ash: 1:09

grew up. Oh, okay, yeah. So when I was younger, I wanted to be a mermaid.

John Hawker: 1:15

Okay, I can't not laugh at these when they come out of people. I'm just like, okay, mermaid's one of the strangest ones. Go on, give me some context.

Carly Ash: 1:23

So I loved the little mermaid when.

John Hawker: 1:26

I was younger the Disney connection yeah, the OG Disney princesses still to this, to this day. Little mermaid is up there, you reckon. Do you know what?

Carly Ash: 1:36

Moana, moana's up there.

John Hawker: 1:38

I think if I was a little girl now, I'd want to grow up and be Moana okay yeah, have the.

Carly Ash: 1:43

I'd want to grow up and be Moana. Okay, yeah, have the Rock as my husband.

John Hawker: 1:46

Why not, of course, yeah, I understand.

Carly Ash: 1:47

But yeah, so I just love the Little Mermaid and I remember I used to. Obviously we live by the sea, yeah, so lots of beach days and things like that when I was younger and I remember, like I have this vision, looking out to sea and just thinking I want to be where the people are, like I literally just want to be out there and just looking to see if there would be any mermaids like I really wanted to be a mermaid.

Carly Ash: 2:10

Then I found out. You know, my dad completely crushed my dreams. They're not real, um so I was like okay so then I wanted to be a paper girl, because I see the paper girl going around my clothes. And then my dad sat me down and started to talk about careers.

John Hawker: 2:28

Okay.

Carly Ash: 2:29

So my dad was a self-employed. He was in the print business. Yep. And my dad really worked his way up. So he left school, he went into print in an apprentice sort of scheme. Back in the day I think he was paid like two pounds a week or something crazy like that yeah. But yeah, it's where he learned his trade and he worked his way up from there, so my parents are from the Midlands.

Carly Ash: 3:00

My dad trained there when he left school and then got an opportunity and went down to east london okay, yeah um and um and, yeah, sort of started his print career from there and he eventually, um, from an age that I can really truly remember, set up his own business, used to print for, like, the daily mail and everything had these massive colossal print machines in factories went into business with these three other guys and um, and yeah, he was kind of killing it.

Carly Ash: 3:29

So he used to talk to me a lot about business. Yeah, um, we'd be driving um on the motorway, perhaps going back to see family in the midlands, and he'd say see that lorry, see the wheels on that lorry. A company has made those wheels for that lorry. Used to kind of like break everything down as to how a business would work all the component parts, yeah together, um.

Carly Ash: 3:51

So that's when I kind of fell in love with business, um, and what my dad was doing. So I used to go into the office with him and things like that and and from then I knew I wanted to work in an office so so you come from mermaid aspirations of being a mermaid realised that just wasn't a route.

John Hawker: 4:09

That's not a route you can go there?

Carly Ash: 4:10

No, it's not.

John Hawker: 4:11

Yeah, unfortunately, Paper girl seems to be a short-lived thing. It was a short-lived thing, yeah, but you're going by the examples that you see, which is round your coast?

Carly Ash: 4:18

Someone's living in papers and they were getting money for yeah, exactly.

John Hawker: 4:21

And she looked happy, she was outside every day yeah, exactly and then, I think, going to what I would classify as quite a grounded yeah probably a bit more of a realistic, yeah um viewpoint that was instilled by your dad. How do you remember how old you were around around the point he was having those conversations and you started to connect the dots of okay. Yeah, I can see see how this is all made up.

Carly Ash: 4:45

Probably when I was about nine or 10.

John Hawker: 4:47

Okay.

Carly Ash: 4:48

I also loved acting at school. I was in quite a lot of drama and things like that. I would have pursued that as a career. Wow. But it's just tough doing something like that. Yeah. So my parents would sort of say you know, we know you love this, but perhaps it could be more of a hobby and you would need to kind of basically get a real job yeah, and go down that kind of route.

Carly Ash: 5:12

So that's when I used to go into work with my dad and because I never really knew what I wanted to do. You know, I went to school with people who wanted to be a vet from a really young age. They loved animals and they're vets now, like really they pursued it like, but I never really had that. I think the only thing I did love was acting, but you know that is a tough career to kind of so let me ask you had your parents and I get it.

John Hawker: 5:38

I get you know the majority of parents, I think, if they're a 9, 10, 11, 12 year old daughter is going. I want to be an actor you're probably just going to, you know, I guess just err on the side of caution slightly and be like, okay, well, let's just set some realistic expectations. You'll get others that will go. Yeah, fuck it, let's go for it.

Carly Ash: 5:56

We're going to push in that direction.

John Hawker: 5:57

Did you have anyone? Were your teachers at all trying to drive you to do that? Because that can be quite a conflicting thing, can't it? Sometimes, if someone is saying to you, carly, yeah, why not pursue it?

Carly Ash: 6:07

yeah they were. They would have conversations like Carly's really talented um. I was also since a really young age in sort of in performing arts, so I was doing all the dance, jazz, ballet, tap my mum would take me. I'd be in like little modeling shows in London and things like that. So from a really young age I was kind of a little bit in that world. My mum was a dancer. Oh, wow.

Carly Ash: 6:34

So she I think part of her wanted me to do that as well. But you know my dad, who was a lot more kind of, perhaps pragmatic, and yeah yeah, just was like look, this is, this is tough if this is something that she wants to pursue. So, um, so, yeah, so.

John Hawker: 6:51

I get it. I get it because I, obviously we're both parents and if my, if my I, I am confident my son, my oldest, finlay, will come to me one day and go. I want to be an actor and in a way.

John Hawker: 7:02

I feel like he bloody should, because this kid is so confident and he, he can sing, he can memorize lyrics, he can do all these things. But there's still a part of me that goes. I know I don't know anyone that that became an actor but, I, know it's brutal and I know, your chances of success are incredibly slim, so I think I can completely empathize with your dad's perspective or your parents in general, which is you could do that, but you've got a very much more stable chance of success.

John Hawker: 7:27

Let's say, if you go down what I classify as a more traditional yeah, I think as well.

Carly Ash: 7:32

It was a lot kind of tougher in those. I think it was tougher in those days maybe to get something, whereas now it seems like there there's open kind of competitions. You have like x factor and things like that that you could go and audition for and that kind of thing that's made real kind of stars slightly, doesn't it?

John Hawker: 7:49

when we say we're talking about this pre-x factor or pop idol or anything like that.

Carly Ash: 7:53

That's very terrifying but even like tick, the world of tiktok and things like that. Now you've people, have got a platform they can put themselves onto and get a following yeah and become superstars in that way and build their career in that world, should they want to pursue it yeah, I think it's easier for people now I'm not saying it's easy to be an influencer, I know obviously I'm sure we'll talk about that like yeah, my background there.

Carly Ash: 8:16

But, um, but I I feel like I feel like you'd probably be a bit more open-minded to it should finley come to you and say you, you'd be like, okay, well, you could probably go down this route and build a following and go from there. Yeah, you could kind of be found better, Whereas back then I feel like it might have been harder. I don't know.

John Hawker: 8:35

I get that because I think we're talking late 90s, something like that, aren't we Around that kind of time into early 2000s and there just wasn't the infrastructure there to to launch people into those things. I mean, the reason I always start with asking what people wanted to be when they, when they were older, is just to see if there's a connection between what you, what you then went on to do. Um, I'm trying to think, probably a tenuous one, if I tried to connect mermaid and then, and then what you do now is, uh, a head of people, vp of people, which we'll talk more about your skill set now. But yeah, I like to get an idea of of what kind of launched you into the career path you actually went on, and I think your dad instilling that. Okay, yeah, that love of business for you was pretty important and pretty fundamental for the sound of it.

Carly Ash: 9:18

Yeah, and I was. I was there. I was kind of seeing sort of every detail of of how a business works and how it's kind of designed and put together. My dad is an absolute hustler right, and so am. I yeah, I've got that from my dad um, so yeah, he's kind of really instilled that in me. So when I was at school I left school, I went to college and again didn't know what I wanted to do, so I did a diploma in sort of like, being like a secretarial studies.

Carly Ash: 9:49

It was like a paa kind of diploma yeah um, I dropped out, it wasn't for me where did you go? Um, so I didn't go to another college I got a job right um at a stonemasonry right um, in the office as an office junior and I was like you know what? I'm just going to do, what my dad did, I'm just going to work my way up.

Carly Ash: 10:08

I'm just going to learn everything about this business until I sort of get into a kind of top position yeah so I was there for five years and I left as their like office manager, which was kind of the highest you could be that was the ceiling you were gonna. Yeah, that was the ceiling I was going to reach, but I absolutely loved it. I learned so much again about business in that company. Again there was a factory so I was always up in the factory. I'd kind of felt like I'd gained a lot of experience around how factories work and even just like the factory culture from it's a different audience, isn't it?

John Hawker: 10:44

it's a different group of people and a demographic that you're, that you're working with and dealing with yeah, exactly, um, and I absolutely loved it.

Carly Ash: 10:52

I thrive in that kind of environment as well. It's kind of quite relaxed. I feel like you can really be yourself, have a bit of a laugh, um and um, yeah, get on with the day job as such. So, yeah, I absolutely adored it and I feel like I learned. My md gave me so much opportunity as well, sort of client and client facing roles as well they're going out sort of selling as well, um, learning sort of all the operations, customer sort of success, you know, even going into a factory and working on they were sort of a stonemasonry, working on worktops, working on worktops and things like that.

John Hawker: 11:25

So it was just great it was just brilliant, like, yeah, I had a few different hats, but I absolutely loved it okay, what a big part of a lot of the conversations I have are all also focused on career guidance that you received in a young age whether that's inspiration, which it sounds like your dad to you was a huge inspiration in life from a work perspective, or what I call like your formal guidance that I remember not being particularly positive, but at college, so okay.

John Hawker: 11:54

Well, what do you want to do when you grow up? Here are the routes that are open to you. Do you remember any of the conversations that you're having around that time? Did you have any formal career guidance through secondary school or college? You're pulling a face that most people but Paul and I know this is. I know everyone's listening to this, but but it is literally everyone's thinking no, I can't remember which says to me it was just completely uninspiring.

John Hawker: 12:19

That's it. I mean there's, there's nothing. I can't. I can't remember much, but I can remember you were, as a guy at 16, 17, you were kind of categorized into are you going to go into the corporate route, corporate world, go up to london finance banking, or are you going to go and learn a trade? And they were really the two main channels that you have to focus on yeah so yeah, that's why I asked, but you have pulled exactly the same place that most people have.

Carly Ash: 12:44

No, I can't help you there. Sorry, there's no. Like there was no inspirational conversation, isn't it a shame?

John Hawker: 12:50

though. Do you think that's a shame? I mean, you've gone on to have a really successful career and it doesn't sound at all like you regret the route that you went down. But again I think about what I want my there to be more of that inspiring external viewpoint, coming into education to say do you know what? This is the weird and wonderful world of jobs that are available to you.

Carly Ash: 13:12

Yeah, I think. But I think I had that demonstrated to me through from such a young age with my dad. Yeah. Just literally I don't know how to say it Like just in what, everything that he was doing, it was literally displayed to me. Throughout my life there was no inspirational conversation. Like I say, I remember the conversations I used to have about how a lorry was built and things like that.

Carly Ash: 13:36

And you know, I would always hear him like I didn't really see him during the week as well because he was always in London working till late. So I'd see him on the weekends and he'd be talking about work and things like that and I'd be listening to it and it's obviously instilled something in me, it's obviously inspired me in some way, and it inspired me because my dad, like he, would always show me photos and things like that.

Carly Ash: 13:58

But my dad worked really hard to get to where he was and to go out on his own and he's had a lot. He did have a lot of challenges along the way and I saw those yeah firsthand, and I think it's the experiences that my dad went through that have really shaped me and and kind of it's, turned me into the person that I am yeah.

John Hawker: 14:17

I'm just a hustler like my dad yeah, what do you think about that term hustler? Because you mentioned it describing your dad and you said you're one too, and it's interesting that you said that you didn't see your dad during the week as well, when you saw him at the weekend. Because, yeah, hustler means that you are committed to your job and not saying that you're not committed to your family, but the stereotypical image is you work from really early in the morning until late at night with the goal of really starting to build something or making money.

John Hawker: 14:47

So what do you think of that term? Because it's got a bit of a negative stigma now, because you've seen, you know you're on linkedin, maybe not as much as me, but you're on linkedin and you know the hustle culture, I think has now got a negative stigma against it yeah do you agree with that and what's the challenge? Because I feel like you might have one yeah, it's a funny one.

Carly Ash: 15:03

I'm quite torn, so I would say, in the position and the role that I play in organizations. Now it's not something that I would like advocate a difficult point to take, isn't it? Yeah, but I'm the classic person who um will give out that advice but not listen to it myself okay, it's just who I am and it's, but I wouldn't do it if I didn't love it.

Carly Ash: 15:27

If and I think I think that's the same for anyone you just wouldn't do something if you didn't love it and you wouldn't give it all the blood, sweat and tears if you didn't enjoy what you were doing. Um, you don't have to do it. You don't have to be that hustler. I could log in at nine and finish at five, do my day's work and that's it. But to me I'm not adding enough value in that way, and it's not because of the hours that I'm doing or showing that I'm online until late.

Carly Ash: 15:55

You know I have a family, so actually I might be out for an hour or two during the day because I'm at school drop-offs or an after-school club or just being a general taxi driver for my son, yeah, um, but then I'll be back on later on after having dinner with my family to finish off kind of the day's work and anything else that I wanted to do in my day that was purposeful towards my work, so, um. So actually I but I equally don't stand there and preach to my people in my organization and say, you know, only do, only do your hours, et cetera, et cetera. I just say, do what's right for you.

Carly Ash: 16:29

If you want to stay on until late, that's fine, but if I see that you're burning out and you're struggling and you're not performing, we need to have a conversation Like you need to rein in.

John Hawker: 16:38

So that's where the coach in me comes out, and that's brilliant, because if you if you, I don't know throw yourself into this um dictionary definition of what you know a hustler would be in a work context, yeah, you're going to burn out, aren't?

John Hawker: 16:52

you but it's nice to know that there are people like you in organizations that have an eye or have processes or just have a way of monitoring how people are being impacted by that, because you want people that are driven, you want people that are passionate, but you also want them to be able to identify when they have to look after themselves exactly maybe draw back slightly yeah okay, interesting.

John Hawker: 17:13

Yeah, I've, because you use that term, hustler and I can see that you're not using in a negative way. I I'm on board with what you're saying, like if I, if I really practice what I preach to organizations all the time, the business wouldn't be where it is now. I wouldn't be nearly five years down the line and still making money doing this work-life balance is difficult. Yeah, it's a real challenge, but I'm fortunate and it sounds like you are to really enjoy what I do so yeah okay, tell me then.

John Hawker: 17:41

So stonemasons yeah five, six years with them. Just bring me up to the point. Yeah, let's have kind of a run through of where you went after that. So how old were you when you left the stone masons and why? Why did you leave? Oh gosh, how old was I maybe early 20s, early 20s, so do you remember why you left?

Carly Ash: 18:01

yeah, I went to australia, went to Australia, um, with some friends and, um, yeah, just wanted to do that for a bit. Um, I think I felt a little bit different as well, because everyone was going to college five years prior, then going on to university, felt like I was missing out a little bit on what everyone else was doing in that sense yeah.

Carly Ash: 18:23

I was one of the few that just went out to work and was like I just want to start earning money, yeah, um, and then everyone was kind of doing their traveling bit and I was like, well, I can do that too, so I'm, and I'm going to. So I did that for a bit um, how long was a bit a bit was about six months um planned to go for a year came back.

Carly Ash: 18:44

Came back because I just wanted to get on and work like and just build a life for myself yeah, that intrinsic drive, and you just started to yeah up again and yeah I remember and it just wasn't for me the whole backpacking, staying in hostels.

Carly Ash: 18:55

I remember getting in a taxi in um brisbane and he was like you're the cleanest looking backpacker I've ever seen. I was just like I just don't think this is for me, like this is just not for me. Yeah, um, so, so, yeah. So came back and started working down the road all right, okay, yeah.

John Hawker: 19:11

So just just before we started recording, carly was talking about where my office is, a few buildings down Carly used to work.

Carly Ash: 19:17

I'm talking to the listener, but yeah, so, so just to give you some context, yeah, okay, yeah so, um, and there I was, in a, so I left obviously the stone masonry as an office manager, so I got an office manager role yeah there in it was a construction company was doing that for a bit um, and within that you're sort of doing a lot of hate. There's HR aspects to your role, there's onboarding, um bit of L&D of lnd um and working really closely with the md um.

Carly Ash: 19:49

So I feel like you're that relationship builder, you're especially with these clients and you're that his coach as well um, and then from there I went into.

Carly Ash: 20:01

I went to London right to a facilities management company in an EA office managerial role that had a bit of HR admin thrown in and I was there for about three, four years and that's when the HR aspect started to kind of come into my day to day. So I was onboarding staff, I was there was some L&D involved in that I was in a lot of exec meetings, sort of minotine and things like that, putting agendas together, but I would always have my MDs direct reports coming to me for coaching and that's when it kind of that's my. I started to realize what my passions were.

Carly Ash: 20:46

Okay, I was figuring it out yeah um, and then I had my md actually left and took me with him right to another organization where we sort of set up um a commercial department in the organization and I was in the office with all of the HR, with the HR director, people like HR at the time it's HR coordinator, and I was just learning so much about the craft there, loved it and then took a people ops generalist role at a tech company about a year later and that is where I really went. I really went into um the world of of HR. I was working at the time with a. She was a consultant, she was a sort of director level um and she was just, she was my coach, she was my mentor and she was just like you are brilliant at this.

Carly Ash: 21:46

Like it's so natural to you and I had so many ideas, and it was when kind of I feel like it was when people ops was coming into the word. People ops was coming into everything.

John Hawker: 21:57

Yeah, because it's been a relatively new evolution hasn't it. I think that terminology to describe what people do. And I think it's moved on Beyond that? Yeah, it has you know, definitely post-pandemic, I think.

Carly Ash: 22:09

Absolutely. It's really evolved further which?

John Hawker: 22:10

we'll go on to talk about a bit more.

Carly Ash: 22:12

Yeah.

John Hawker: 22:12

So it sounds like I just want to go back to as well, because I think a lot of people that listen to this may be in a position where they're thinking they get to a point in one organisation, having worked there for a few years, and they're wondering what you know, what's the push? So, if we go back to the role that you took on down the road uh, office manager there, talk, take me through the the the kind of impetus behind why you left there again was the driver. You knew you wanted to move on. You knew you wanted to do I'm going to say bigger, better things in the most respectful way yeah you had a goal.

John Hawker: 22:47

It was definitely that.

Carly Ash: 22:48

Okay, it was definitely that I knew I had to go to london I had to go to the big bright lights of london city um and see, see if someone would give me an opportunity and they did um and and it went from there yeah, okay um, so, so yeah, I'm really grateful for that because I think a lot of people can get stuck and get very comfortable and it's really easy, especially in the type of work maybe you were doing beforehand.

John Hawker: 23:14

I think tenure for office managers or people in that capacity can be incredibly long yeah because you've got the right level of responsibility, you've got the right level of flexibility and there's a degree of comfort the longer you stay in a business. Yeah, I mean hopefully yeah um, you find your feet and you know how things work. So to just kind of unleash yourself from that comfort zone and go yeah shit, I'm throwing myself in, not the deep end, but you know I mean like to a much bigger pond by going to London yeah.

Carly Ash: 23:41

I think you've got to be incredibly brave to do that yeah, and I think, kind of going back to your initial question, like with all seriousness, when you sort of said what did you want to be when you were growing up?

Carly Ash: 23:51

I didn't know and I still didn't know when I was working down the road I was figuring it out, but I knew. I knew I could build good relationships. Um, I knew I could. I could do a lot of admin, I could do anything that was kind of getting thrown my way and I just built on that over, kind of maybe I don't know five, six, seven years Until. Yeah, someone gave me that opportunity in London and I knew there was so much more that I could do, but what it was I just wasn't sure.

John Hawker: 24:22

Yeah, and I guess, with this evolution of the people ops thing, it's like how do you consolidate all those skills into one job?

Carly Ash: 24:29

yeah, or one role, because you're cherry picking things.

John Hawker: 24:32

Probably you've seen by these really inspiring people, colleagues around you, and thinking if there's one job that I could put a title on, yeah, and then embody that yeah really handy yeah so it seems like that evolution started to happen around the right time. Yeah, it really did, and it just made so much sense.

Carly Ash: 24:49

It was there's essentially like so many hats yeah that you have to wear um and there's. So, yeah, there's just so much to it. I was just like this makes perfect sense, like how the evolution of people ops was happening, the evolution of me yeah, it was happening kind of kind of alongside. There was a true synergy there um and I was just like I found my place brilliant.

John Hawker: 25:12

So yeah, so when you were younger, you didn't know what you want to be. When you grew up, do you know? Do you know now? Yeah, I do know now yeah what an amazing thing, but only only recently, yeah, only like only recently, and you know I've gone through a lot personally over the last few years and that makes you really reflect on your purpose.

Carly Ash: 25:31

But I'm now allowed myself. You know, I left my company sort of towards the end of last year and I wanted that time to think about what my, what my purpose was. Um, and it's definitely given me, given me that.

John Hawker: 25:46

So good, we're gonna go. I think we'll jump forward slightly. So you said you, you joined one tech firm and that's where you started to take on your kind of date. You know your real day-to-day hr responsibility. Moving forward with that, that isn't influencer, is it?

Carly Ash: 26:01

that's the one before. Influencer.

John Hawker: 26:02

Yeah right, that's right okay, so I think we'll move to influencer yeah, that's okay yeah, and so you found a role. The one previous, who? Who is that with the previous?

Carly Ash: 26:13

um, so that was my drive. They were called my drive solutions, okay, so you were there for about six years. Yeah okay.

John Hawker: 26:18

So then what? What's the driver to go? To leave my drive and go to influencer?

Carly Ash: 26:22

well, um so my drive were actually acquired by a huge italian insurance company and they sort of they saw us as an asset and they merged everything that we did in-house right um. So we all were made redundant and I had to close the company down right, so that's why I left. Probably would I probably. Well, I don't want to say because you don't know you know, I genuinely.

Carly Ash: 26:46

I'm one of these people that genuinely believes everything happens. For a reason you know, I stayed on. We I had one of these people that genuinely believes everything happens. For a reason you know, I stayed on. I had to make 60 people immediately redundant, let go, lost their jobs.

Carly Ash: 27:02

And then there was about 50 of us that stayed to kind of like, just get everything wrapped up. And so I stayed and I had a few months to find something and, yeah, I went into Influencer. It was the first one, and I had a few months to find something. Um, and yeah, I went into influence. So it was the first one and I I got it. Um, and I genuinely believe you know what happened there, led me to to that and then led me to what kind of has happened over the last few years with them.

Carly Ash: 27:22

So which has been pretty career changing defining yeah, exactly, so so tell me that, then MyDrive.

John Hawker: 27:30

you've been part of that business for six years and then very quickly they're acquired, which is great news for the people that you know at the very top of a company like that that are going through the acquisition and they're probably aware of that, maybe a little bit before you are.

Carly Ash: 27:46

Yeah, so we were actually acquired five years prior. Oh, okay, so Generali had acquired us. We've gone through all of that transition, went through that journey, and then sort of five years later, they, they, oh wow, so it was a long. It was a long process to then wrap that business up.

John Hawker: 28:02

Yeah, wow, what was it like having that having to make, or having to be the mouthpiece for that company making 60 redundancies. Yeah, that was tough, yeah, had you ever had to do anything like that before.

Carly Ash: 28:15

No, no, a lot happened in leadership as well, which I wouldn't want to say on the podcast, but my CTO was placed as our interim CEO. Wow. I knew something was up and I went into work that day and I could just tell by his body language he wasn't good. So, and usually with that, with my execs as well, I will literally just go come on, let's just go and get a coffee is that the coaching?

John Hawker: 28:44

the coaching mindset that comes in sometimes, of being an empath.

Carly Ash: 28:47

I am an empath, I can just sense it um, and so yeah, and he just immediately was just like this is what's happening, and it's happening today, and like I want to tell you because we need to get into action, there's a lot of people are going to be well, everyone's losing their jobs. Um, and I took about two seconds to let that hit and go. Okay, that, that does include me. I've lost my job as well. But okay, let's just, let's just sort this out.

John Hawker: 29:20

I'll be all right, and, and that was that was that pragmatism, proactivity that your dad has driven yeah, I think it was maybe kicked in plus your experience, obviously definitely, and you know I grew up seeing my dad.

Carly Ash: 29:34

Um, my dad's business went into like he went his business. He lost one business, one went into liquidation and when I say about that hustler, he would just pick him like dust himself off, pick himself back up resilience yeah, and I think I think I've got that from my dad.

John Hawker: 29:50

Yeah, for sure. Well, we'll go. I mean, we'll go on to what's happened on your personal journey as well, carly, but I would say, yeah, if there's anyone that embodies resilience, then you are a very good example of that, for sure. Okay. So yeah, that through making those decisions, it's part and parcel, I would say, of the type of role that you, that you hold in in businesses, um, but maybe I mean ask about the, the kind of personal impacts on you of having to make those decisions, because maybe that's not always thought about too much by the individuals going through it. You're going through it too, but you're also orchestrating this for another 60 people yeah so what's the what's the toll that takes on on you?

John Hawker: 30:31

you can be pragmatic about it and you can be proactive and you know you've got to get it done, but they're all hard decisions to make they are.

Carly Ash: 30:39

But you I've really you have to put your personal feelings to one side. Yeah, um, I think you know, immediately throwing yourself into action and just making sure everyone else is going to be okay and that they're, that they're going to be kind of secure financially when they're leaving, is something that I worked really, really hard on yeah um with our um with our owners, essentially um and within that. Obviously I knew that I was going to also be okay. So that was just a relief.

Carly Ash: 31:10

That's all anyone wants to know. I'm going to lose my job, okay. What does this mean for me financially? And then it's just comfort for that with that blow so. I just wanted to get that sorted out as soon as possible. But for me personally, in those kinds of situations you have to put your feelings to one side and just think of your workforce, yeah, um. So, to be honest with you, I don't really remember thinking much just I guess, a degree of autopilot as well.

John Hawker: 31:38

Yeah, you just have to you have the role.

Carly Ash: 31:41

I take my role very seriously in those kinds of challenging times to be that calm in that chaos, um, and that's when I don't know how. I've said this to many people. I don't know how I do, but I can.

John Hawker: 31:56

I just can block myself off from what's happening personally and just get on with the job what an incredible skill to have, because, as an empath as well, there's always that risk that you're going to open the floodgates to feel what everyone else is feeling and it's not being able to compartmentalize. It doesn't mean you're not feeling it, but it means that's not going to stop you doing the tasks and the jobs that you know you need to get done yeah, but the last thing that they need to see is is me crumbling so that's what's I.

Carly Ash: 32:25

I will go home and crumble and and maybe that's kind of where my that's my safe place. Yes, yeah, yeah and I'll talk about it with, like my other half, who's I always say he's my coach yeah, yeah, um, they're the best relationships, aren't they, when you've got that? It kind of is yeah yeah, exactly so I'm everyone's therapist, he's mine.

John Hawker: 32:44

So there you go, that's good, I mean, he sounds like a legend. Okay, so, from, from my drive, going through what sounds like quite a I don't know again another career defining moment for you to put yourself, sort of. You forge yourself in those experiences, don't you? You never want to go for them again, I can imagine, but you know that's part and parcel. And you gain that experience and you start with a company called influencer. That was the first. Did you say? That was the first job you interviewed for outside of my drive? Yeah, okay, and tell us, just give us, a bit of context again about how that happened.

John Hawker: 33:18

Because this is, this is where I because I so, just for anyone listening I've known carly for a long time. We haven't spoken for a good number of years and then, um, through linkedin, the weird world of linkedin, I started to become aware that you had joined influencer, which which, at the time and I don't know much about the broader market was the company doing what they were doing in the industry they were doing it in. Is that a fair description? Yeah, okay, so how did that come about? Because you played a huge role in the growth of that business.

Carly Ash: 33:51

Yeah.

John Hawker: 33:52

So just give us like a potted history of getting that role.

Carly Ash: 33:56

Yeah.

John Hawker: 33:57

And then what happened in the early formative years there.

Carly Ash: 34:00

So I was looking, so obviously lost my job at MyDrive and I was looking for my next role, and what attracted me to the role was it was called head of heart yeah, they, they'd labeled it, they'd labeled it that okay, I didn't know if that was you no retrospectively after joining.

Carly Ash: 34:17

Okay, I like that right but if a title had any more alignment to my place in an organization organization yeah, um, I was like this one's it, so I applied and yeah, and I got an interview, um, and went into their offices in covent garden.

John Hawker: 34:38

This, bearing in mind, was about two months before the pandemic it's going to ask where the chronology was, because I know like 2020 was a pretty big year for you anyway. Yeah, for the world, I world, I could argue, but definitely for you.

Carly Ash: 34:51

Yeah.

John Hawker: 34:51

So that was. So we're talking February time, January. Okay, right, yeah.

Carly Ash: 34:55

Yeah, so it was January and yeah, met Ben the CEO and the COO at the time and, to be honest with you, I went for the role and I just thought it might have been a bit big for me, but I thought, just me being me, I'm just going to put myself forward, see, if there's an opportunity.

Carly Ash: 35:18

I know what I can bring to a company like this. I was really excited by the company and I think that really came across to Ben and him and I just hit it off straight away and I remember sitting at the table at the end of the interview and was just like I'd love to work with you, like give me this opportunity. And he was just kind of like okay, like you know, um, poker face was on. But he since told me literally as soon as I walked in he was like she's got the job oh, wow, yeah, so I had a couple of stages and um and then, yeah, I got the job, so um, and then I started there in the March um and what

John Hawker: 36:01

a month what a month, what a month, um.

Carly Ash: 36:04

So yeah, it was. It was really a really quite conflicting time as well, because I was finishing up with my drive um, and I was contracted to stay there to get literally turn the lights off yeah um, and I wanted to see that through. I owed it to the everybody that was staying on to do that um and everything, so I really wanted to see that through. I was really supporting my my interim CEO, who was the CTO and the founder of that business as well um, who was finding it really, really hard I could.

John Hawker: 36:32

I can just imagine the complexity of all those emotions.

Carly Ash: 36:35

Yeah, it was really really tough um and I just wanted to stay and um and see it all through. But equally, I had my new ceo and my cvo, my two founders, calling me when, um, everything was kind of happening or working from home, like what do? Like, what do we do? Like I think everybody in the world in in the world of work was just like how the hell are we going to navigate this?

Carly Ash: 37:01

yeah, and they didn't have a people function at all. So they were calling me and I was just had two conflicting things kind of going on at the time so how much did they overlap then, carly?

John Hawker: 37:12

the closing of my drive and then you starting or being on influence rate.

Carly Ash: 37:16

So I wanted to finish at my drive and then take two weeks off, have a bit of a holly bob yeah and then start at influencer. But I finished at my drive on the Friday and started at Influencer on the Monday.

John Hawker: 37:30

Right, so yeah, wow, so yeah. You are joining a growing business. So I don't know what the again the dictionary definition of startup or scale-up are, but are they startup? At this point, they were startup.

Carly Ash: 37:43

They just had their Series A.

John Hawker: 37:45

Okay.

Carly Ash: 37:46

Yeah, literally, I think a few months prior. Yeah, so, yeah, yeah, yeah, um, literally I think a few months prior.

John Hawker: 37:51

Yeah, um, so, yeah, very much startup and headcount wise at that count wise.

Carly Ash: 37:53

They were 20 people at that point wow um yeah and and being told right guys.

John Hawker: 38:00

Yeah, this is, this is the new world. Everyone panic. So covid covid hit every all offices. They were based in covent garden.

Carly Ash: 38:09

They were based in Covent Garden. They just moved into their new lovely office in Longacre it was a stunning office as well. Really great, really really great spot um, and one of. It was actually one of the reasons why I joined. It had such a great vibe like when.

Carly Ash: 38:23

I walked in real kind of like in that hustly part of Covent Garden, um and um, yeah. So they had to tell everybody to work from home. Literally, people were walking out with their monitors under their arm, going home, and oh, we should be back in a week or two.

John Hawker: 38:39

That was the viewpoint, wasn't it From so many people? No one knew how long this fucking thing was going to last.

Carly Ash: 38:46

Yeah, it was crazy. So we were also. The plans were so in my interview stages were for us, within about sort of six months, we would be opening our office in New York and Ben was Ben and I were actually there was crossover. I was in New York for a few days at the same time as Ben before I joined, where he was looking at office space and like potentially signing contracts and things like that. But obviously that, just that, got massively put on pause and we didn't actually end up opening in New York for about two years later. I think it was.

John Hawker: 39:22

So from your position you've gone from security. You know the rollercoaster of emotions you must've been going through at my drive to turn the lights off. Then you're starting with a new business. They've just, you know, a few months after series, a funding kicked in all these big growth plans, the role, by your own admission, slightly bigger than than your experience was at the time, but all of the tools to make that work for you yeah and then you, and then you just get this explosion of covid everyone has to work from home.

John Hawker: 39:52

Yeah what are you feeling at that point again? Does that autopilot pragmatism kick in?

Carly Ash: 39:56

yeah, it did. Um. So I immediately um put a workforce together of senior managers who met on calls every morning, every afternoon, because all the rules and everything were just changing constantly, um, and what we needed to be doing. So we were just meeting, checking in who's doing okay, who's not. You know what's the work that we've got out, what have we got to get done? What's the new guidance that's coming out? How are we going to navigate that? Um? So, yeah, I just kind of swung into action and um, just did.

John Hawker: 40:31

Now you've mentioned your son. Have you had your little boy?

Carly Ash: 40:34

Yeah, so he was about 16 months at that point.

John Hawker: 40:37

Wow, okay, so this is a huge thing, okay. Well, there's so many questions I want to ask on the back of this and it's all the practicalities of how you enable a workforce to work remotely, and I think there's there's lots of chats that have been had around that fortunately, in a way, those are kind of standard practice now for so many businesses. At the time it was, it was all brand new. Yeah and this remote working was just. It's accelerated the adoption of it for so many companies which I think there's a lot of positives from.

John Hawker: 41:05

But, um, I'm going to save all those questions because they get a bit geeky and we could probably talk about it. Um, so you've got your, you've got your son 16 months old, you've started a brand new role in a scaling business during the pandemic, all the hurdles that you're getting over and making waves and making an impact, and then, in may, you get some pretty big news yeah, on the personal front, yeah, in april, yeah yeah, so this is, I would imagine, one of the biggest challenges you face, so can you tell us a bit about that?

Carly Ash: 41:35

yeah, so in the I'd been in the job for about three weeks and um, it was easter weekend and so obviously there was a lovely long weekend, and um, do you know what I was really enjoying? Lockdown yeah I, I was, I think everybody was at first I did. People were like popping. Prosecco at one o'clock in the afternoon like just loving life, Not that I was doing that in the week Banging pans, yeah, banging pans clapping, clapping for the NHS. Exactly, yeah.

Carly Ash: 42:03

So I was enjoying it quite a bit and we just had a bit of a boozy Zoom call the night before like pub quiz that kind of thing. And I woke up and I got a text from Copperfield, which are a breast cancer charity who send monthly texts to people to remind them to check their breasts. So I thought, oh OK, I'll have a quick check because it reminded me and I felt a lump in my breast and fast forward. A couple of weeks later I was told that I had breast cancer. So, yeah, so that was a pretty, yeah, huge shock.

John Hawker: 42:43

Yeah, I can't imagine, I can't imagine. Usually, my response is yeah, I can imagine, I just can't imagine what it must feel like with everything else going on and I guess that kind of blows your world up when you hear that, given you're, you're a mum yeah given that you've started in this new role, all these, all these things.

John Hawker: 43:03

I remember finding out about your diagnosis through some incredibly brave videos you were posting on instagram at a time and I think my other half reached out to you, yeah she did just to say how brave and inspiring you were because you faced that with so much grace throughout the whole thing, so I don't think I've ever told you that, but it was so amazing to see the way you dealt with it, thank you, but I I just can't imagine internally all of the thoughts that go through your head. So you found out quite early, didn't you?

John Hawker: 43:32

yeah, very early so maybe take us for a bit of that process and and what that. I don't even know how many years that went on for and the treatment that you went through, carly, can you talk a little bit about that? Yeah, I don't even know how many years that went on for and the treatment that you went through, carly. Can you talk a little bit about that? Yeah, I'm still going through treatment, so it's still going on, but the main thing is I'm cancer free.

Carly Ash: 43:51

So basically it was during the pandemic and I called my GP after the Easter weekend and said you know, I've got a lump, found a lump in my breast. What do I do um? And during that time. So the lump that I felt um was a really pea-sized lump and it was very, very hard. It wasn't moving um and my initial thought was like fuck, if I can swear sorry yeah, that's.

Carly Ash: 44:21

That was kind of what I thought um, that is a lump.

Carly Ash: 44:24

That's definitely a lump in my breast, um, but equally, I was like I'm really young, um, it can't be cancer. And looking you know, googling, um, you know, nine times out of ten it's a cyst or it's. You know, I'd had a baby 17 months before, so your breasts change during that time, from breastfeeding and things like that, and you get all kinds of lumps and bumps. Um, so there were so many different things it could have been.

Carly Ash: 44:52

I was like I'm not gonna freak out um, I'm gonna just be, you know, logical about this and, um, just take this in stages. So I called my GP, and it was, yeah, obviously during the pandemic, and she said, well, I can't see you right now, so can you just wait a bit. And I was like I can't really wait. You know, I've got a lump in my breast, you know. So what can you do? Because I was thinking if I was calling you because I'd just broken my leg, are you going to tell me to wait?

Carly Ash: 45:24

yeah, you know, just see how it goes yeah, just see how it goes, like no, um. So she then said, um, well, you know you have had a baby very recently and sort of said about all the the breastfeeding kind of stuff. And I was like, yeah, okay, that's fine. And she said you know, and you're there's your cycle as well, like there's a lot of change in women's cycles and things like that with their breasts and things like that. So it could be that. And I was like I don't really want to take a chance.

John Hawker: 45:51

Surely someone can see me, you've got to advocate for yourself at that point for sure.

Carly Ash: 45:56

And then, you know, I got very emotional on the phone because I was just like I have a family, you need to see me, um. And she was like, okay, because you're so upset, I'm gonna refer you to the breast clinic.

Carly Ash: 46:08

So I was like thanks, yeah, thanks hon, yeah um so, um so, yeah.

Carly Ash: 46:14

So a couple of weeks later sort of fast forward that time I went to the breast clinic and um, even then, you know um a doctor sort of checks you first um a physical examination, and he was just like I'm sure it's just a cyst, it's fine and I was like great, okay, bearing in mind as well, obviously, I'd just started my new job.

Carly Ash: 46:35

So they said allowed about three hours to be at the breast clinic. I said to Ben, I was like I'll probably only be half an hour, didn't even tell him because I was like I've, I've only just started working with this guy for three weeks, I'm not gonna tell him. I've got a lump in my breast. I was like I've got a hospital appointment, I'll be out for a couple of hours this morning, but I'll be online. Yeah, so I had my laptop and I was working away in the breast clinic like a crazy woman taking calls, everything, um, and then, yeah, as time was kind of going on, they did a mammogram, then they did another scan, then they did a biopsy and as time was going on, I was like, oh, this is. But I was thinking, well, they, you know, they're doing all the checks, it's all fine, it's diligent, and that's what you want.

Carly Ash: 47:15

That's what you want exactly, um, and I remember like messaging ben, just being like I'm sorry, I think I'm actually going to be here a bit longer, and he was just like it's fine. And then, yeah, they took me into a room and, bearing in mind as well, I was at the appointment completely on my own because it was the pandemic and you couldn't take face masks.

Carly Ash: 47:33

It wasn't even the time of face masks so literally the social, there was social distancing, um, so yeah, so got told that when I was completely on my own. So I think that out of everything was probably the worst out of all, of it, being told that news on your own is the worst thing that someone could have to go through and a relative stranger sat across from you at two meters apart yeah, you know, they couldn't even give me a hug, yeah even if they wanted to yeah, it's just a, not a thing that you can do.

John Hawker: 48:08

Yeah, yeah, it was hard, yeah, yeah okay, I don't want to dwell on it too much because I don't, yeah, but I feel I really appreciate the transparency, because I think again, if anyone's listening to this, that that you can help or at least get thinking if they do need to go through the process of getting checked, and I know you're a big advocate for doing that making sure the awareness is very high, so still going through treatment, yeah, still going through treatment.

Carly Ash: 48:35

So, I had. So I had a mastectomy, then I had reconstruction, had a mastectomy, then I had reconstruction and then I had chemo and then I had, and now I'm on hormone therapy, which is so. My cancer was an oestrogen receptive cancer, so they basically I can't produce oestrogen in my body in case there's any sort of dormant cancer cells still in there.

Carly Ash: 48:59

So I have have these injections um monthly that shut my ovaries down, and I have to take a tablet every day to ensure everything's just kind of like not being not produced. So I'm therefore in a medical menopause yeah I've been in a medical menopause for, uh well, since october 2020. Um, so yeah, so that continues for five years, but I actually made the decision to stop in December of last year. Okay, because it's and it's quite a common thing, and I think that's something that women need to know, that they've got options.

Carly Ash: 49:32

They don't just have to do what an oncologist is telling them to. You can go out and look at data and you know there's a lot of data out there for anyone that's going through breast cancer and going through hormone therapy. It is really tough going through a medical menopause. You have so much brain fog. You know we were talking before I came in here and I completely just blanked in what I was saying to you.

Carly Ash: 49:56

And that is so. It's hard. It's really embarrassing as a woman when that's happening to you. There's a lot of weight gain, there's a lot of fatigue Because you're not producing oestrogen anymore. The hormone oestrogen is like a tonic for your joints, so you have really achy joints. Right. And I was even finding on my dog walks, which I love, my hips. I felt like I was like a 60 year old.

John Hawker: 50:23

Sorry, to only 60 year olds like I'm sure there's very, very mobile 60 year olds.

Carly Ash: 50:25

Yeah, exactly, but it was just really tough and I'm, you know, in sort of my mid to late 30s and I I just got fed up of feeling like this and I've been given this chance in my life. You know, if the cancer was found early, it was taken out. I've done everything that I can to ensure I'm as healthy as possible. Um, I want good quality of life now that's.

John Hawker: 50:48

That's exactly what I was going to say it becomes about a balance of and I can't put myself in your position, but I, if, if I stretch so far to be able to imagine, I think after a point you have to. You have to factor that in, don't you? Especially with a young family? Yeah, exactly um.

Carly Ash: 51:05

So yeah, it was just really important to me that after making that kind of decision and it was something you know I'd never advocate to go and do that on your own you have to talk to your breast care team and I've got a team behind me who are really, really supportive. Um so, um so, based on, you know, my cancer type and everything, the treatments and everything that I've had and my lifestyle. You know I'm I should be okay the prognosis is really good, the prognosis is really good.

John Hawker: 51:33

So that's the main thing, amazing from start to say start to finish? Obviously it's. It continues, car Carly, but from the start to the point where you kind of finished your treatment and became cancer free, how much of that time was in parallel with your time at Influencer? I mean all of it. All of it. Yeah, okay. Yeah. I was going to ask you. I'll group both of these things. They're very different.

John Hawker: 52:00

Um life events, obviously, but becoming a mum yeah I guess gives you a completely different perspective on your role as a head of people ahead of heart yeah because you're an empath so you can empathize with parents without necessarily being one, but when you become one and I know this from my own transition into fatherhood too nothing prepares you for being a parent until you've actually got a human being that is yours, that you have to look after. So so you've had that, and then you've had, obviously, your you know incredible journey with with being diagnosed with breast cancer too. Do you feel like both of those events have kind of I'm not going to say helped you in what you do for a living, but have they informed or impacted what you now do for a living in terms of the way you can empathise?

Carly Ash: 52:50

They've empowered me.

John Hawker: 52:51

Yeah, amazing, I love that word. Yeah, they've really empowered me.

Carly Ash: 52:56

And everything else that you just said, absolutely Like. It's empowered me. It's enabled me to empathize with mothers, fathers, people going through adoption, people going through fertility treatment and in my, more recently, I've really noticed as well a lot of women of my age who haven't, you know, inverted commas settled down or you know, aren't, you know, conforming to what society tells you to do and are freezing their eggs and they're taking injections and they feel really rubbish and like I think actually organizations need to be looking at that a little bit more especially with the gen z workforce coming in, um.

Carly Ash: 53:32

So yeah, there's a lot there. It's really helped me to kind of empathize. In that sense it's helped me to empathize with women who are older going through the menopause, women who are my age going through the perimenopause. It's helped me to empathize with cancer patients and carers and everything. So I genuinely think it's empowered me in my role even more so.

John Hawker: 53:55

What a great perspective to take from it as well, because I would imagine the path of least resistance is to get into a hole and just feel like my world is literally ending and to have taken those lessons from it I think are great. And just to give carly's page a shout out, where she shares just remind me of the handle on instagram I'm gonna mention it um, it's um at soul and see wellness nice, yeah, so.

John Hawker: 54:18

So yeah, carly has been a big advocate for awareness during her journey with with breast cancer and now wellness and health and well-being post that diagnosis yeah so there are.

John Hawker: 54:30

There are amazing stuff on there. We were talking before recording that Carly's gonna continue investing some time in that. Yeah, karen, showcasing that, wow, okay, that's quite the year, so just just to kind of ease in after that. So you so I'm wondering when you know I don't know what the process is, but when you've got the diagnosis, now that you're cancer free. So I imagine there's a, there's a feeling of is it as far as elation or is it? Is there anything? What?

Carly Ash: 54:59

did you feel? No, there's not. It's really strange, because you never. I don't, I'm not speaking for all cancer patients, but your personal situation. You don't feel like you're ever cancer free.

John Hawker: 55:10

Right.

Carly Ash: 55:11

It's. I don't know what it is. It's a trauma. Yeah.

Carly Ash: 55:15

I remember coming out of there and actually my other half was allowed to come with me to that appointment, and he was just like, oh my god, he was elated, like thank god, you know, blah, blah, blah and I just felt really numb because I think as well, I had chemo coming up, I had um, and then I knew I had all of the hormone therapy and I still had a reconstruction coming up, which is a major, major operation it's not what people think it is um, and there were still hurdles to go over and you.

Carly Ash: 55:47

I think only now, since stopping the hormone therapy, I actually feel cancer free okay because when you're still going through treatment, which most cancer patients are, even after they get that wonderful news- by the way, I'm not saying that's not the news that you don't want to hear um, you've still got a lot of hurdles to go over, so you're just, and yeah, you, just, you feel like you're.

Carly Ash: 56:13

It's a really strange, it's a real. There's a real psychological thing and I don't think that, um, there is enough support out there for people post-cancer, for the mental sort of effects of something like that, no matter how good your prognosis was. Yeah you, you just feel like a cancer patient forever and you essentially feel like your cards are marked yeah like I know, one day I'll probably die from this disease. So right it's just something that you have to learn to live with yeah, that's a really good call to arms.

John Hawker: 56:46

I think that that focus, that there needs to be more support post diagnosis or post being labeled cancer free doesn't mean that the whole impact, the trauma, the ptsd almost from that whole experience there really is you're really.

Carly Ash: 57:00

It's really strange and there's so much that needs to change in the system when people are diagnosed. I can't tell you the amount of leaflets I was handed at every appointment.

Carly Ash: 57:10

I didn't look at them right I don't want to look at them.

Carly Ash: 57:13

I I'm dealing with a cancer diagnosis and an 18 month old and a pandemic and a new job. I don't want to look at your leaflets. Like there needs to be like, but also who does who? Who who does anymore? Like we get everything on our phone and I remember saying to them there needs to be an app.

Carly Ash: 57:29

You need to give me an app and I need a notification of you know being a 30 year old with cancer and dating after cancer, because they just put you in that demographic, which is fine, but there's 50 year olds that are single and want to date after cancer and like there's so much that I could talk about on it but, um, but yeah, that kind of the mental side effects you're really supported during but after, after all of the treatment, you are left yeah, and you are then not in your survival mode anymore. You're not then thinking right, I've got chemo. Right, let's do this down.

Carly Ash: 58:01

Round one, round two got through that you're then left and you're like what the fuck has just happened to me and no one's there to support you and you. You are offered to go to this group or go to this meetup. I don't want to go there. I am processing. You know, some people might want to, they might feel comfortable doing that. It wasn't for me. I was just like no, I'm, you know, I'm a bit more internal and I want to process things and maybe a little bit more on my own some of the words that come to mind, and maybe these are right or wrong, but, like your mourning, to a degree there's grief that you're going through all these things that take that people process in a very personal and individual way.

John Hawker: 58:39

And yeah, okay, I mean I'm. I'm gonna go on speak about work again yeah, no, that's fine go ahead, but I don't like I'm not glazing over anything you've discussed. I think it's incredibly brave that you you're so honest and open about your experience with it, so thank you for that that's all right, but I think what you've just said will really resonate with a lot of people the whole post the post care post support piece. So that can just highlight that as an issue.

Carly Ash: 59:02

I think that's really important to share yeah, and I think if anyone is actually struggling with that as well, breast cancer now are amazing, so call their helpline brilliant.

John Hawker: 59:09

Okay, we'll put that in the in the episode description. Thank you for that. Okay, so you've gone through quite a journey. February 2022 you're working with influencer. We've just we're kind of getting all the news that the pandemic's over this is it like you know as much as it is over. There's still glimpses every now and again of it, of it returning as in like covid. But february 2022 you have another challenge at work yeah um, which is the russian invasion of ukraine.

John Hawker: 59:37

Yeah, now I don't. You know, a lot of people would have had to in your position in in companies with a workforce out in that area would have had to deal with a similar thing. But that as a head of heart that you still were at the time.

Carly Ash: 59:51

I was VP.

John Hawker: 59:52

VP yeah, I was promoted to VP within 18 months.

Carly Ash: 59:57

Wow, okay, so yeah, I was VP at that time.

John Hawker: 1:00:00

Right. So you've already played a significant role in influencers growth through some really tumultuous times in your personal life too. And then the Russia-Ukraine invasion happens.

Carly Ash: 1:00:12

Yeah.

John Hawker: 1:00:13

Can you just tell me a little bit about what that is like? Because there's making 60 people redundant and then there are dealing with helping people that work for your company, that are living in a war zone. So it's quite a broad question, but tell me about what that experience was like um the most challenging time in my career to date without a doubt, um, and that actually really impact.

Carly Ash: 1:00:38

That was, I would say, that actually really impacted me personally as well.

Carly Ash: 1:00:42

I mean, of course it would yeah, as an empath or just a human being, yeah and I think you know we sort of spoke about how I can kind of go into this block, and I think I do think that's very common amongst HR professionals. You know you have to because you're dealing with people's lives and sometimes you have to give them not great news and you learn to kind of block um but um, but that was something that you couldn't. So, um, we tried to prepare for it as much as we could. Um, there was a I was doing a lot of contingency planning at the time. I had a team over in ukraine all engineers and um, I was speaking to them about, um, what they thought was happening. You know a bit about the history of everything that was going on.

John Hawker: 1:01:27

You know you're trying to like understand what the actual history between the cultural significance because we're detached from it, especially at that point, and also, you know, there was so much media buzz going on around it at the time.

Carly Ash: 1:01:38

You kind of like, okay, are we creating something here that might not be? And they were very relaxed about it. They were very ah, this has been going on for like 70 odd years, carly you know, we don't need to worry.

Carly Ash: 1:01:50

And I'm like, okay, yeah, but if this is going to be happening and I remember at the time the tanks were literally on the border and I was like, you know, the tanks are there, so what is your plan if there's an attack? And they were telling me where they were going to go, and that was in terms of either north, south west, whatever country, and also we had a sponsorship license.

Carly Ash: 1:02:13

So I was trying to also understand if they'd come over to the UK how easy that would be for them, their family set up, you know, because some, you know, don't want to leave their family. Some are parents, some are carers for their parents. They're not going to leave their parents. And I was just trying to understand everything and then, from that information I was getting, I then started to understand a little bit more about the countries they were going into, the schools in their areas, airbnbs, housing, how much that would cost so we could then put, provide a relocation package for them.

Carly Ash: 1:02:46

And I wanted to get all of that signed off before anything should happen, and I did right and we agreed it, ben, my ceo and I, and our um chief product officer raf yeah, yeah, he you know well at the time. So we did that and I'm so glad that we did that what an amazing thing it just meant that when it happened, we on that day we swung right into action.

John Hawker: 1:03:09

We had the whole action plan there and we just went into action but what like have you got a support network of other people like you in organizations? Yeah and you have an opportunity to collaborate or at least have conversations to sanity checkpoints and their forums. Uh, you know what commute what? What is your community? Like, yeah, I have a huge community doing it on your own is, I would imagine, impossible yeah, it is um so since the pandemic.

Carly Ash: 1:03:36

Actually, I had a community before, but it definitely grew since the pandemic, because of obviously all of that, um. So yeah, I have slack groups and through that I've created, I've got a great community and people literally at the end of the phone if I want to call them about things, so well needed because, because again in that, especially in that leadership role, it's very, it can be a very lonely place yeah, it's a lonely especially in your organization.

John Hawker: 1:03:59

You are expected to be the oracle, like the fountain of knowledge. Help us, Carly.

Carly Ash: 1:04:03

Exactly, fuck Okay.

John Hawker: 1:04:04

Yeah, let me, let me try yeah.

Carly Ash: 1:04:07

Yeah. What an amazing initiative, though like to be able to collate all of that stuff and then go and get it done, yeah it was, and I'm so proud of the work that we did there and how we helped and how we led the organization through that as well, because obviously, you know, aside from my engineers literally being in a war zone, everybody else in the company was really distressed with what was going on, what they were seeing.

Carly Ash: 1:04:34

You know we were keeping the contingency planning. They don't need to know that. Everybody in the business didn't need to know that. Leadership knew about it and we didn't want to worry anyone. But obviously when they can see what's happening on the news it was really important that comms were going out from us to say how the team are, what we're doing, you know um, and how they can be looking after themselves as well at the time. So I'm really, really proud of how we led that. Yeah.

Carly Ash: 1:05:08

And yeah, and just so, everyone knows that the whole team were fine and they managed to get to safety. But the resilience of the Ukrainian people is just makes me upset. Next, level.

John Hawker: 1:05:17

Because they're just amazing. Yeah, what a thing to go through on the back of everything else. I know. It's just absolute madness. I know.

John Hawker: 1:05:26

Okay, I'm just thinking from your perspective. How the hell do you reflect that on a CV? It's such a pivotal thing that you've done and played a part in, but to try and do that you know I read CVs and the guidance I give is try and keep it concise. But I'm like wow. So you are playing, I think, in all of the roles that you've been in, but especially Influencer, where you've been given this scope to really build a culture from the ground up. Culture, I think, is you can tell me if it's wrong but an important part of what you do is in building, developing, defining a culture. Can you I'm putting you on the spot can you tell me your definition of what a culture is within an organization or a business?

Carly Ash: 1:06:08

yeah, I mean. Culture to me is how your organization behaves. It's how they have their meetings. It's their values. It's how they live and breathe their values. It's the guiding principles around their values. It's their values. It's how they live and breathe their values. It's the guiding principles around their values. It's how, um, they're growing their people um, and it's their transparency with their people. It's how they're communicating with their people um. That's culture to me yeah it's not ping pong tables and pizza, and that is an element of it.

Carly Ash: 1:06:45

There is a, there is an element of social um which is really important um, but all the other stuff is so much more important um, and that's culture to me, in in an organization because I think holistically I mean again, it's a big narrative on linkedin like yeah, um, stick two fingers up to ping pong tables and pizza and all this stuff don't get me wrong.

John Hawker: 1:07:08

I think it plays a small part in a much, much bigger puzzle yeah but, yeah, like showing, showcasing your culture by highlighting those aspects of just having a call office if even if you define that as a call office is probably not hitting the nail on the head, so I love that. What is it? Because you talked about identifying your passion and now understanding what it is you want to be when you grow up and um, which is, which is amazing, I think like learning that about yourself and understanding that. I think it's really important. But what is it that keeps you passionate about doing this for businesses, moving forward the whole culture piece. Is it the people? I'm assuming it's. It's the people and the people.

Carly Ash: 1:07:46

It's the change that you can as a people leader yeah that you can implement. It's being that calm in the chaos. Um, that's what I love about it. It's the growth as well, especially in the startup scale-up space. I wouldn't have the career I've had if I'd have gone and worked for some massive thousand-person corporate. Yeah. I just would be. I don't know, I just wouldn't be doing what I do now.

John Hawker: 1:08:17

Well, I guess when you talk about change, you've got more opportunities to facilitate change in a smaller organization yeah and and for me, when I'm hiring for startup and scale-ups again, working with people like yourself and working closely with people, heads of people, vps of people, um, being part of that early stage in defining what the culture is. I think it's both.

John Hawker: 1:08:40

It's tough because you play an even more important role, but at least you're shaping something from the ground up yeah, as opposed to having to go into an organization looking at a culture and thinking, ah shit, we need to make some changes here yeah because doing that retrospectively, I imagine, is harder yeah, it is just a different challenge yeah okay for me as well.

Carly Ash: 1:09:01

It's about in the job you're helping people as well and I think that's part of my purpose yeah I just want to help people yeah you know, I want to help employees in work understand what their rights are as an employee. I want to help ceos and founders grow their businesses um, and I want to. I want to help others. You know like I want to help mothers in the workplace I want to help women going through menopause in the workplace.

Carly Ash: 1:09:28

I there's. I want to help people grow their careers because I'm someone who literally has hustled to get to where I am now yeah um, and I know what that's like. I wanted to start from the bottom to get to essentially the top. Yeah.

Carly Ash: 1:09:47

And that's just what I want to do. I want to help people that have had breast cancer. I want to help people understand how important well-being is and their nutrition is, and how important exercise is, and things like that, and I feel like I can do all of that in what I do, things like that, and I feel like I can do all of that in in what I do.

Carly Ash: 1:10:06

Yeah, um, so it's quite a powerful, empowering position to be in an organization, um, but I it's a really I take a great deal of like responsibility with what I do, um, but yeah, and I just love it, yeah that's what it falls down to, is what it comes down to you, just love it. Yeah, that's what it falls down to isn't it?

John Hawker: 1:10:22

That's what it falls down to. You just love it, yeah, and that really comes across. So maybe give me an idea because I think it's going to be interesting to a lot of people that maybe don't work in that space, and there's a couple of again. I keep using the word narrative but let's say there's opinions floating around that culture might be the wrong word sometimes to define or describe what people are building in organizations or, you know, hiring to a culture fit. As an example, I give that and people seemingly have an issue with that sometimes.

John Hawker: 1:10:51

But I think, just having a bit of a insight into what it's like and the impact you make on a company culture, so say, let's say, influencer, using that as an example, what is your, some of your methodology at going into a business from at that level and then being the orchestrator, the artist, if you like, of putting, of building that culture from the ground up, like what are some of the pivotal or key things that you focus on when you, when you first join? This isn't an interview, by the way I'm not interviewing for your job, but I'm just interested.

John Hawker: 1:11:23

I think a lot of people might be in building a culture. Yeah, because it's such a broad task, like if you said to me right, we need help building our culture, but some companies are looking for that yeah so so what do you focus on? What are the building blocks?

Carly Ash: 1:11:35

I think it's about thinking about it really purposefully okay I've always said to think about it like it's a product of your business and it is a product of your business.

Carly Ash: 1:11:44

Um, you know, your employees are your greatest asset, is what's always kind of said, and it is true. Um, so you need to think your culture like a product, so you need to. Something that I actually did at influencer is I workshopped it. I workshopped our values. You know, are these the values that we want? What other you know values do we want? What are the behaviors that we want from these values? What are the guiding principles in the company that we want people to sort of remind themselves?

Carly Ash: 1:12:14

This is what we kind of stand for and this is how we want you to be operating. And you know, again, like I say, like, what are we kind of stand for and this is how we want you to be operating. And you know, again, like I say, like, what are our kind of key behaviors? What do we want to be seeing from people and how can we build that? How can we kind of build that into our workforce? So ways that you can do that in a company are through progression and development pathways and frameworks. You know you have your different levels and things like that in organizations. So, okay, I'm a junior. How do I get to be a level three, a managerial position. This is what the organization would want to see from me behaviorally.

Carly Ash: 1:12:53

This is how they want to see me holding meetings. This is how they want to see me showcase the company externally. This is what they want to see me showcase the company externally. Yeah, um, this is what they want to see from me in terms of my training, um, and and that kind of thing so I think, that is a really great way, a starting point um with your culture.

John Hawker: 1:13:10

I completely agree. I mean, I've started doing some, some consulting work around employee value proposition yeah and going into companies and I and I have to say the businesses I enjoy supporting most are startups, because you are doing that from the ground up. And I think for any business. So if I were looking to grow, the first person I would hire or the first person I would look for advice from is someone like you.

Carly Ash: 1:13:31

Yeah, and it's surprising how many companies don't.

John Hawker: 1:13:33

It's scary because I think it's undervalued skill set number one.

John Hawker: 1:13:38

It's underappreciated, yeah, and you think you're going to be able to do it retrospectively yeah but imagine how much harder that is when you've got a team of people working with you that are all. Yeah, you might have I don't know you might have mistakenly created this culture through the, through the, the army of people you've got working for you at any one stage. But if it's not been driven, as you say, if people don't understand the why or they're not on board with the values or the mission or the purpose as you continue to grow, that's going to become a shaky foundation to build on, isn't it? So, yeah, for me, I'm not just, I'm not just big up in the people, your skill set, but, honestly, if I was looking to grow, you'd be the first person I'd be speaking to yeah because I'd need that guidance yeah.

John Hawker: 1:14:18

I want the building blocks, the foundation, to be as solid yeah, as it possibly could be.

Carly Ash: 1:14:22

Yeah, I, funnily enough, I'm I'm in a process with with a company at the moment and, um, they, I know they've had the role advertised for about four or five months and. I? I just said why have you taken so long to fill this role?

John Hawker: 1:14:36

you know.

Carly Ash: 1:14:37

I know this role has been open for a really long time.

John Hawker: 1:14:39

I know when I applied why are you talking to me?

Carly Ash: 1:14:41

now and they were just like oh, you know, we've just kind of put it on hold and for this reason, that reason and I was just like that's the worst thing that you could do you want to scale to x number of people in the next three years?

Carly Ash: 1:14:54

you should have hired me or someone like me a few months ago because I really truly believe, once you get that funding and you're able, yeah, to um, the company has kind of got that investment and and you're, and you've got that back in, I think your people leader should be first hire yeah because not just for that, like that culture building, but there's that with the founders, the ceos. You are there, you're just. You work for me. I'm there at the, at the end of the phone at several times therapy, coaching, whatever it is, yeah coaching advice of all of it.

Carly Ash: 1:15:34

Yeah, um, there's so much. I mean, look at what the world has thrown at us over the last few years.

John Hawker: 1:15:39

Hopefully, you know we don't have we're on an even keel for a little bit, please god, until the aliens come.

Carly Ash: 1:15:45

But you, you just need that person. You need that person. Who's who's, who's got those soft skills? Yeah um, in your organization, which are just so essential to growing your workforce, to having a workforce that are truly behind you, who are going to perform and really thrive. Um, yeah, so it's, it's just such an important, it's such an important culture. So important, yeah, um, and it's so, so broad, so vast.

John Hawker: 1:16:18

I think the mistake a lot of people as we've already both I think we've both defined, is that people feel like they can do it themselves and they undervalue that as a skill set and and the the term I think I think you've probably engaged, actually, with a blog that I did on soft skills being such a bad label yeah, for the set of skills that I think are going to be the real differentiators for everyone moving forward, especially with automation, especially with ai, like soft skills will be.

John Hawker: 1:16:42

Yeah, we have to come up with a different label. But they yeah, they undermine qualities in people just because we call them soft skills. But these are differentiators as we progress. I've got a couple more questions and then we're nearly done.

John Hawker: 1:16:55

I was going to talk to you about the evolution of the skill set that you've got and and whether that's been accelerated by things like the pandemic, by things like the war in ukraine, and I think people, people, as I label them are doing so much more now yeah and I do think that the pandemic could real, could really be like a new chapter starting yeah, I agree with that, yeah it's just such a more far-reaching role now, yeah, and I think, broadly speaking, more people respect what it is that you guys are doing now and ever, yeah there's a lot more value placed around it. Yeah, how do you think it's grown? Do you feel like fingers crossed? We are on now a bit more of an even keel in terms of hopefully there's no more pandemics or wars but, you've seen the evolution of it.

Carly Ash: 1:17:40

I've seen the evolution of it. Um, I think the pandemic really polarized. It highlighted what we are, we can do, and for me it's, yeah, an evolution of a skill set. I always knew it was there. I always knew it was in me. I didn't quite know what it was um, but it's played out and I, and I had it in me. I think I think as well. There's a lot around sustainability now. That's on the map. You know I influence. I got them to be called status yeah, amazing um, and that was a.

Carly Ash: 1:18:12

That's a huge, that's a whole new operation that you're taking on. There's an ecosystem around what we actually do. Yes, yeah. There truly is, and yeah, and that role is just getting bigger. So organisations just really need to think about that with the people that they're hiring. But, yeah, there's a huge. There's huge around sustainability and things like that.

John Hawker: 1:18:39

Yeah, and in that regard, it's a, and in that regard, it's only going to become even more involved as as companies have bigger drivers now to focus on things like sustainability as part of employee value proposition too, like people want to work for companies that give a fuck, basically about the environment, about community, about their people yeah, and it's hard for companies to do that without that guidance.

Carly Ash: 1:18:59

Yeah.

John Hawker: 1:19:00

I don't envy a lot of businesses out there for having to try and tick all these boxes, but do more than that like actually care yeah. But there's a lot to be doing, and to do that without the right guidance, I think, is a. You know you're cruising to a pretty bad place.

Carly Ash: 1:19:15

Yeah, I agree and I think, with the, like I say, this gen z generation that are kind of coming in now into the workforce, it's it's actually I found it the most challenging over the last few years because they do want to work for really purpose-led companies that align with their own values and it's not just about salary anymore yeah it really isn't yeah they want to know how you're going to progress them.

John Hawker: 1:19:36

How's your, what's your company doing to like socially impact the environment or society and and what's my role going to play in that it's a really good point it's what people care about now, and your company has got to showcase that yeah, because meaningful work is one of the four pillars that I talk about when I when I discuss evp, and it's not just meaningful work. Is that show me what the contribution I'm making to the company? Show me the contribution that the company and the work I'm doing is making to community?

Carly Ash: 1:20:04

exactly or the environment or the world in general yeah.

John Hawker: 1:20:08

I love it. I love it. I love speaking to the next generation of people coming through because I'm also dealing with hiring managers that are not that way inclined and do. Still, they quite arch, quite archaic mindset and we're paying salaries. But first off they should be thankful that we've got the opportunities, which I think is a very wrong mindset to get into when you're hiring in general.

John Hawker: 1:20:29

But yeah, I'm noticing the generational divide now between a generation that still believes it's all about the money we're giving them opportunity they should be thankful for us and then the next generation coming through and asking so many more questions.

Carly Ash: 1:20:42

Yeah.

John Hawker: 1:20:43

And that means a recruiter's job is evolving too, because if you don't know about the business and the clients and the companies you're recruiting for, people will not buy into that either. So amazing.

Carly Ash: 1:20:53

It's exciting. It is exciting, yeah, I'm excited by it.

John Hawker: 1:21:03

I've been more excited about working in and around this space. There's seen it. There's a there's overlaps between what we do, carly, but not you know you've got a much vaster role than and what I do, but I I'm more excited about my job now and the types of roles I can put out there and the types of organizations and what they're doing for their people than I ever have been yeah and the gulf between those that invest in it and those that don't yeah, so clear to see yeah, yeah so it makes my life easier if I know what you haven't.

John Hawker: 1:21:23

You've not got this in place. You're not offering your people this. I can just yeah, okay yeah, I can't do it for you then yeah what advice would you give to people so say there is someone listening. That was you know around your age when you started moving into this space for the first time, into that stonemasons? What advice would you give them at the very start of their career in this kind of world If they want to move into a career that focuses on people and culture and making workplaces better, any advice?

Carly Ash: 1:21:50

Oh, that's a really tough one.

John Hawker: 1:21:52

I know I like putting people on the spot.

Carly Ash: 1:21:53

I think it's tough as well because, like you, just want to come out with something really inspirational it doesn't have to be profound if you want to be a mermaid, go for it.

Carly Ash: 1:22:02

That's what I'm gonna say. No, um, I think it's just listen, listen to your intuition. Um, it's really hard to know who you are. So you know, invest in mentorship is probably one of the um biggest things. Actually, I would say I did a post about it on LinkedIn. But, yeah, definitely I always had, I've always had that. I've had various kind of mentors throughout my um, throughout my career, at different stages, my first one being my dad, um, and I just even in that sense, yeah, if you have a family member or someone who can really support you on your journey, I think that's something. That's that's kind of really important. But community is everything and if you can get yourself, you know, I do get messages from um, from people who are starting out in their careers, on LinkedIn, um, and they ask for my time and.

Carly Ash: 1:22:57

I'll give them my time, so don't think that people aren't going to give you your time. So yeah, community is everything at that early stage, um, when you, when you want to sort of surround yourself in this new future of work. So yeah, I would definitely that probably be my my bit of a bit.

John Hawker: 1:23:16

I love that you really warmed up into that answer. It wasn't at all. No, it's brilliant and I think it's a really good point. I one of the biggest things I think I could have benefited from is having a mentor. I felt like I had some when I was working in the agency I started in. I don't think I did. I don't.

John Hawker: 1:23:35

I should have gone for someone external and oh yeah, go for someone external, definitely yeah exactly because at an earlier age as well, you also just don't understand the importance or the impact a mentor can make. Now, after running this business, I've had maybe three or four that yeah mentor me on different things.

John Hawker: 1:23:50

Yes, plus therapy but all these things help holistically yeah um, so I think if I discovered that when I was younger I'm not saying like it's not a goal to be further on than where I am now, but maybe I would have known myself a bit better or a bit earlier, let's say than I do now.

Carly Ash: 1:24:05

Yeah, that would have been nice, I agree, I agree, um, and no question is kind of too stupid. When you're sort of talking to a mentor, you use them to talk about their experiences for sure. And if you are in a company and you want that kind of internal mentor, use them for your own progression in that company for sure, use them really well, yeah um, so yeah okay, cheers for that, carly, right, we're done.

John Hawker: 1:24:31

Okay, I do have um a closing tradition on the podcast. Okay, do you know it? I love this because I put people on the spot. I'm like this is where I find out if anyone's listened on the spot. I'm like this is where I find out if anyone's listened to the whole episode and it's fine, um that, the closing tradition. So I'm assuming you've listened to the diary of a ceo with stephen bartlett. Have you ever listened to any of those?

John Hawker: 1:24:49

yes, yes so it's nothing to do. He doesn't give uh ask the question, but on his podcast he he gets the previous guest to leave a question for the next guest oh, okay now I don't do that because I think that's copyrighted, um, but what I do do is ask my mum to leave a question for the guest.

John Hawker: 1:25:07

Now, mum has played a big role in my marketing because I don't have much money to do it, so mum's played a big role in my marketing for my recruitment agency when I first started out. So mum has left you a question on a voice note that I have no idea what it is now.

Carly Ash: 1:25:21

Mum obviously remembers you from being I was gonna say friend, at school I used to come around to your house like and hang out with Luke.

John Hawker: 1:25:27

Yeah, so she remembers you well, so she's left oh god now. So I do give her a bio and what the conversation is. So I don't think she's going to be asking anything about you coming around to the house when we were teenagers. But, let me get this now. I'm going to play you the voice note Again. I don't listen to this. Hopefully it's something semi-related to what you do, but we'll see. Hi, carly.

Carly Ash: 1:25:49

What's your favourite team building exercise with the companies that you work with? Thanks very much.

John Hawker: 1:25:56

Bless her. So my mum's name's Lisa, just in case you didn't remember. I do remember, but yeah, I don't know if that's the sort of thing that you cover in your role. I would imagine it's something where you delegate it or outsource it to someone else. But team building is that even still a thing?

Carly Ash: 1:26:08

yeah, I do have a favorite one actually I do do a few, yeah, okay um, I do also outsource it for leadership, but um, yeah, one of my favorite ones is um petra kucha okay um. So it's a japanese um, it's a japanese team building exercise, and what you have to do is it's really great for um hybrid remote working companies um, because you can do it online or you can do it in person.

Carly Ash: 1:26:36

But what you have to do is you have, sort of say, 15 slides and on each slide you have a picture and you have 10 seconds to describe what that picture is, and it's just a really great way for people to understand a bit about you and who you are and sort of break the ice okay, um in um, in any sort of particular setting, and you can ask any question on the slide.

Carly Ash: 1:26:58

Yeah, um, so that's probably one of my favorite ones. You we used to use it all the time actually influence, oh wow, nice, okay um and it's a really great way to get to know someone, know their story, know their passions um and how they work.

John Hawker: 1:27:12

So yeah, it's definitely one of my favorite ones brilliant. Do you mind if we put a link to that or a?

Carly Ash: 1:27:17

way of describing that exercise.

John Hawker: 1:27:19

Yeah, that'd be quite handy to put in the description as well yeah, that's fine.

Carly Ash: 1:27:22

Okay, no, that's a really good one.

John Hawker: 1:27:23

It's quite a sensible question from mum for once as well, because there are some curveballs that she throws out um. Carly, it has been a genuine pleasure this conversation. Thank you for being so open and transparent as well thank you and it's been lovely.

Carly Ash: 1:27:35

Thanks for asking me on oh, you're very welcome.

John Hawker: 1:27:37

All right, I'll speak to you soon.

Carly Ash: 1:27:38

Thank, you Speak to you soon.