Life, Lessons and Legacy

This week's conversation is with Jonathan Newell, the innovative insurance entrepreneur behind BearRock. We journey with Jonathan through his childhood dreams of being a marine biologist, his unanticipated dive into the insurance realm, and the indelible mark of mentorship and relationships on his career. He peels back the layers of his life, revealing the artistry required to build a successful career while being a present father, and offers a raw look at the personal cost of professional success.

BareRock Website https://www.barerock.group
Follow BareRock on Instagram https://www.instagram.com/barerock_pii
Follow Jonathan on Instagram https://www.instagram.com/jonathan.newell

The JobsWorth website is here www.jobs-worth.com

Follow me on LinkedIn; https://www.linkedin.com/in/johnhawker/

Follow me on TikTok; https://www.tiktok.com/@globaltechcollective

Subscribe to my newsletter 'The Job Journal from GTC'; https://tinyurl.com/TheJobJournalFromGTC

Learn more about my proper job; https://www.globaltechcollective.com/

Contact me using hello@jobs-worth.com

Chapters

• 0:00 Career Path in the Insurance Industry
• 9:35 Navigating Secondary School and Entrepreneurship
• 17:22 Navigating Career Paths and Family Influence
• 28:53 Navigating Difficult Work Relationships
• 33:38 Entrepreneurial Journey and Business Growth
• 39:52 Embracing Change
• 46:25 Mentorship and Parenthood Impact
• 55:13 Self-Serving Drivers and Leaving a Legacy
• 1:03:58 Reflecting on Legacy and Success
• 1:08:22 Entrepreneurial Advice and Community Spirit

Transcript

John Hawker: 0:00

You saying about digestive biscuits might have been the worst thing, because I had a guest on before you, actually, and I had them out and she didn't touch one and I had about 45 minutes before you got here, so there was a bigger bowl of biscuits. Jobsworth, season 2, episode 8. Life Lessons and legacy. Welcome to the eighth episode of Jobsworth, season two. This week I sit down with Jonathan Newell Leon, c-based entrepreneur and founder of PI Insurance Solution Bear Rock. Jonathan is on a mission to revolutionize the insurance industry and, having worked in it for the last 30 years, he's certainly got the credentials and now the team to turn that vision into a reality.

John Hawker: 0:51

Jonathan and I discuss his path into the industry, starting from his time growing up as the youngest of three siblings, his experience at school, the career options available to him at the time and how he harnessed a particular set of skills to make a name for himself in the sector early on. By anyone's standards, jonathan has had an incredibly successful career and he has some big plans for the future. But we don't shy away from talking about the sacrifices he's had to make along the way. We dig a little deeper into what Jonathan describes as his Type A personality, our experience in managing guilt when balancing work and family. The reality of achieving long-term ambitions only to be left with a feeling of what's next and how the people we work with and learn from can have a profound impact on our professional and personal lives.

John Hawker: 1:35

Jonathan is a father to two young daughters, and we discuss his approach to ensuring he is as present for them as he can be, the changes he's making at work to allow that what it feels like to relinquish control and trust your team, and how you go about defining what enough looks like for you. So, without further ado, let me introduce you to one of the most driven and dedicated guests I've had the pleasure of speaking with, jonathan Newell, so if you've listened to a couple, then you will know that the opening question on the podcast is when you were younger, what did you want to be when you grew up?

Jonathan Newell: 2:08

oh, wow, okay. So my mind always goes back to watching jack cousteau with my mum. So a marine biologist nice wow loved wildlife. Yeah, and I thought the the power of the sea and the mystery of the sea. I just found that really fascinating that's amazing.

John Hawker: 2:24

That's one of the more interesting. What I feel like I? I just found that really fascinating. That's amazing. That's one of the more interesting. I feel like I'm doing a disservice to anyone else that's answered that question, but it is one of the more interesting ones I've had.

Jonathan Newell: 2:31

Okay, and that's quite interesting because I'm a really crap swimmer as well, are you really? It's dreadful.

John Hawker: 2:35

Absolutely dreadful. I guess the swimming part of it is one thing. Jack Cousteau, is it a thousand leagues under the sea? That sort of thing, yeah, okay, interesting, and did you ever have? Did those aspirations ever take you down a path through school, academically, sciences? No, nothing didn't go that far.

Jonathan Newell: 2:56

No, unfortunately not.

John Hawker: 2:58

As I say I wasn't great at swimming.

Jonathan Newell: 3:00

I remember my swimming teacher. She just put the fear of living, got into me. She was like a scary woman oh, really okay, so yeah that really put me off swimming, unfortunately that's what you need, isn't it?

John Hawker: 3:12

when you've got confidence of, of, or you need the confidence of staying afloat or alive in the water.

Jonathan Newell: 3:17

Yeah, yeah, scaring you definitely yeah, I always, yeah, used to dread swimming, unfortunately, so you never know where life could have taken you had that not happened. I could have been sort of I don't know off the Maldives right now.

John Hawker: 3:30

Sounds nice, doesn't it? It does sound nice, okay. So the reason I start by asking that question is just to see if there's any crossover between what people do. Now I think it's fair to say there isn't in what you do.

Jonathan Newell: 3:42

Yeah, that's a very good observation, I agree there isn't in what you do very.

John Hawker: 3:46

Yeah, that's a very good observation. I agree on your day-to-day. Okay, I'm gonna. I'm gonna rewind slightly then. So where did you grow up? First off?

Jonathan Newell: 3:50

so I'm leon c, born and bred okay cool. Parents came down from east london shortly after the second world war. My parents had me quite late, okay, um, I've got two older brothers. Yeah, so I grew up born in 1978. Yeah, leon c, a brief stint stint in London in my early 20s. Yeah, tick that box, but then and then came back, came back home, yeah, cool.

Jonathan Newell: 4:10

And where did you go to school? I went to Wesley, okay, and then on to King John, all right, okay, skip the university bit well, I was going to ask about that actually yeah because I've got connections.

John Hawker: 4:19

So Wesley, my my oldest son Finley, goes to Wesley and partner Sophie went to King John. So I know both of the schools, and I've got a connection there too. What was so just to? I would have said this in intro, but I'll address it in the podcast as well. So you've been working in the insurance industry, insurance sector for 30 years now, Almost 30 years, it's 96.

John Hawker: 4:42

That's quite a stint, that's quite a time of service there. When you were going through school, did you have kind of a clear indicator of what you wanted to do from a work perspective early on? Was there inspiration for you to go into the industry you went into? Can you tell me a bit about that?

Jonathan Newell: 5:00

Yeah, so absolutely no inspiration whatsoever.

John Hawker: 5:03

Okay, so no one around you was working in that space.

Jonathan Newell: 5:06

Not from a school perspective. Okay, certainly family. I had two brothers who are, I think, one's 11, one's 13, 14 years older than me.

John Hawker: 5:14

Okay, so that's quite a gap.

Jonathan Newell: 5:16

So I was growing up at home with my two older brothers, there, big age gap, and it's back in the time when it's the yuppie type era, right, okay, so that kind of era. So I was looking up as a young, as a young kid, looking up at my older, my big older brothers, living what looked like what looked like to be the absolute high life. Yeah.

John Hawker: 5:33

And having a right old blast at the same time. So I would imagine social life is busy making some money.

Jonathan Newell: 5:47

They're going out and buying the stuff they want to get and you're going for that time where you don't have that independence. Yeah right, so the optics of all of that look great from my perspective. So insurance certainly isn't something that I grew up dreaming of, an industry that I'll go into I don't think anyone thinks I said that about what I do for a living as well.

Jonathan Newell: 5:57

I think it's a fairly well-known thing I think it's a fairly yeah known fact that a lot of people just fall into insurance Right Because they don't know. Well, I think this might be a bit generalising, but I think a lot of people that get into insurance is because they don't know what else to do, and it seems to be an easy route in because you don't need any qualifications. Yeah, or you certainly didn't need any qualifications when I joined the industry. I think that's becoming whilst you still don't need any. I think that's becoming whilst you still don't need any.

Jonathan Newell: 6:26

I think the expectation around that has perhaps risen a bit over the last 30 years.

John Hawker: 6:27

I think, without drawing too many parallels between insurance and recruitment, I'd say there's synergy between the fact that to get into recruitment you don't need qualifications. Again, that's well documented. You don't need qualifications. The barrier to entry is quite low. To do well at it, you need drive, you need the right work ethic, you need to be intelligent. But yeah, the entry there. There's not too many hurdles allowing you to get into the profession in the first place. So that sounds like at least at the time you entered into insurance.

Jonathan Newell: 6:55

That was yes, that was kind of the setup, absolutely so back back when I joined. There's no such things as grad schemes or anything like that. So I went in as an eager 18 year old yeah, started right at the very bottom as a clerk, literally doing the filing, photocopying, all that kind of mundane, all the back office admin stuff.

Jonathan Newell: 7:13

Yeah, yeah, but so started right at the very bottom. Yeah, just grafted, just um, wanted to do better. I enjoy, I enjoyed insurance back then. I still enjoy it now for these reasons, but it it's very much relationship driven, okay.

John Hawker: 7:26

Yeah.

Jonathan Newell: 7:27

So it's about striking good friendships with people, having a rapport with people. Now it's a bit more about hiding behind a bit of a computer screen, a bit Okay, and I think that's getting a bit lost a bit. Yeah. But certainly when I joined. Yeah, the relationship thing really interested me. Yeah.

Jonathan Newell: 7:43

And I wasn't particularly academic at school. Okay, that's not to say that I do myself a disservice. I wasn't stupid by any stretch or unintelligent, I just didn't apply myself. Understood my school report every year, john said could do better without fail. It was like standard issue school report.

Jonathan Newell: 7:58

Yeah, so school didn't really particularly interest me, okay, and I look jumping about a bit now, but my kids and talking about your children, you may see the same that I wish the school environment that I see my children going into was what I had. Now, yeah, I think it's completely changed, okay, since I've been so anyway, so academically not particularly that great, didn't apply myself. So to counteract that counter at that I've always been I'd like to think of myself as quite emotionally intelligent, okay, so picking up on people's sort of relationship and so the relationship thing I think really played to some of my strengths.

John Hawker: 8:36

Yeah, okay, that's brilliant, yeah, yeah, I think when and you're right to call it out that you're not doing yourself a disservice by saying you're not academic, I think because there's a stereotype, isn't there, about what doing well academically looks like, and that is getting high grades in things like maths and science and English and applying yourself. And I would say, when I left secondary school, I was academically, you know, you would classify me as someone who had done well academically. It was when I got to college that it all fell apart Too much freedom, not enough discipline. I realised that I needed that structure to really help push me in the right direction. I just abused the freedom that I was given at college, I see, but definitely, I think, the emotional intelligence, levels of empathy, all of these things you can harness to in so many industries like insurance, where you have to build those relationships, and that's going to make, that's going to differentiate you.

John Hawker: 9:35

When you were at secondary school, though, what was your? What was driving you then? So, did you have anything that you enjoyed doing? Did you have any feeling, feeling that you had a particular aptitude for any subject, or was it generally? You just didn't click with secondary school.

Jonathan Newell: 9:49

I didn't click with secondary school. There were periods of my life at secondary school which I don't look back on fondly from a friendship point of view. I wouldn't go as far as to say that I was bullied. Maybe some people may say that I was but certainly in my early stages at secondary school I found that I didn't fit anywhere. Okay, okay, so you probably had it might be different these days, john, but you had the cool gang right. You had the cool kids. They had all the latest gadgets and back then feeler was a big thing for sportswear, yeah, yeah, yeah, all the cool clothes right, cool haircuts, great at sport, all those kind of guys. And then you had, perhaps on the other end of the spectrum, perhaps the more um guys who more into art, guys and girls who are into art, yeah, computer sciences and all that kind of thing.

John Hawker: 10:33

And I wasn't there either, right.

Jonathan Newell: 10:36

So I, I really felt in a bit of a no man's land and I was also an early sorry, a late developer. Okay, right, physically I mean, yeah, hitting puberty, I was way behind the curve, yeah, on all of that, yeah, so I was. You can see me here, I'm. I'm not the tallest of guys either, so I was always the last guy to be picked right for rugby, the last guy to be picked for football, and I think that's probably played into my narrative today, somehow yeah somehow it's giving me some kind of drive.

Jonathan Newell: 11:06

I think with stuff like that you could. You could go either two ways, and I've chosen to use it as a to spur me on yes, yeah yeah, just to like give me a bit of get up and go and just to prove the doubt was wrong a bit yeah, to prove my worth.

Jonathan Newell: 11:19

I think there's a, there's a big thing. We're human right, so we're inherently social animals and to have a period where, if I'm being really honest, I felt quite ostracized, yeah, and I didn't know where I fitted within the school kind of society, and that's, mate, that's a lonely place to be. Yeah, that isolation is difficult, yeah, it's really difficult and, and I think that's where I became my emotional, emotional intelligence really came to play.

Jonathan Newell: 11:45

So I just became hypervigilant, trying to read what everyone thought of me, all the time Interesting, and become very empathetic so I could start manipulating situations.

John Hawker: 11:56

Not manipulating, but understanding it is the right word to use, though I get what you mean, but not in a negative way, but trying to read how things could develop, trying to.

Jonathan Newell: 12:06

It's almost like a crystal ball, it's almost like a superpower understanding. All right, I can detect something in that person and I know, if I don't say this, this and this, yeah, then he might go down that path. So I can.

John Hawker: 12:17

So I was really hyper vigilant around that kind of thing which is, which is a superpower in a lot of ways, or a a talent. It's also exhausting, isn't?

Jonathan Newell: 12:25

it. It's exhausting. Yeah, because one of the things for me that on the flip side of that is that I'm a massive overthinker. I think I put on my form to you that I'm a massive overthinker.

John Hawker: 12:34

Yes, yeah.

Jonathan Newell: 12:35

So I've been overthinking this podcast since last week.

John Hawker: 12:39

I'm the only one that comes in and says exactly the same thing.

Jonathan Newell: 12:42

I think I've rehearsed every single question you're going to ask me, Apart from the ones you're going to ask me obviously yeah, of course.

John Hawker: 12:47

Hopefully there's some curveballs in there.

Jonathan Newell: 12:49

Yeah, I'm sure there are. So, yes, I'm a massive overthinker which, as you say, is exhausting. Yeah, I love my work, I love my business. I think I put or people would accuse me of putting too much emotional effort into it, right, okay, so there's effort and I think that there's also emotional effort, whereas I see the success or failure of what I do in business as a reflection of me, right, personally.

John Hawker: 13:18

Yes, yeah, that resonates with me. To be honest, I'm sure.

Jonathan Newell: 13:21

I'm sure I'm sure I'm not alone in business owners and entrepreneurs having that feeling. I'm sure there's a common thing there. But yes, it's, but to the extent that sometimes and it's something which I'm this overthinking, and this emotional effort is something which I'm working on at the moment- Just trying to be a bit more self-aware about that. Yeah. And how that can detract from me putting time and effort into other things around me in my life yeah, family, kids. Yeah, wife understood.

John Hawker: 13:52

Yeah, okay, yeah, I think that will resonate with a lot of people resonates with me, I think and what I'd like to do during the course of this conversation is showcase the reality of entrepreneurship because outside, looking in, we'll talk about in more detail. But very successful career, very successful business it can often be romanticized, that vision or the stereotype that entrepreneur and um, I think there's more, more focus being put on the reality of it now, but it's always interesting to hear firsthand someone's real world experience of it because it it sounds great and the success sounds great and the trappings that come with that sound great.

John Hawker: 14:27

But there's a sacrifice that you, that you make to achieve those things. Yeah, one of the questions I keep asking guests when they come in is their experience of what career guidance looked like at the time. And I know I'm sort of focusing a little bit about what pushed you down the insurance route and I know you've said already a lot of people fall into it did you get career guidance when you're at school? And just I will say I think you're eight years older than me and the reason I say that is because I, by the time I came around to that career guidance stage, it was still very much for. For guys it was finance up to the city, some sort of corporate environment or go and learn a trade. I had a guest in earlier. For them it was beauty, working with kids, hairdressing. That was literally you know we could a little bit of a generalisation, but more broadly speaking, that was the routes that we had open to us from a career guidance perspective. Did you get any career guidance at the time? Nothing that.

Jonathan Newell: 15:21

I can recall or remember in any meaningful detail, if I'm honest. So, as you mentioned, I'm a bit older than you and I was the very first year of sixth form at King John. Okay, yeah, I think there was crikey less than 10 in the whole sixth form.

John Hawker: 15:36

Really, Because sixth form. Funny enough, the previous guests we were discussing it was a newer initiative at that time, so weren't many sixth form? Am I right in saying that? So you're saying you were?

Jonathan Newell: 15:45

I was the very first year first year of sixth form, right? So there's only first year of sixth form. There was, I think I can't remember twelve, my long term memory about school. It's fine. I don't think I was going to call you to task on that, so I don't know whether there was an expectation, us being the very first year of sixth form, that people will be going down the university route perhaps okay I don't recall any meaningful conversation with anyone about career guidance, anything at all.

Jonathan Newell: 16:14

I did have a place at university, I think, at city university, all lined up, all ready to go. Yeah, doing something generic. Yeah, can't even remember what I chose, but just to do something, and it was right at the end of the summer, after finishing my a level was that my mum and dad sat me down and just made me write out my cv and send it off to everyone. Really, yeah, what one landed right? Um, it was at a firm where my brother worked. Um, it's another thing is with insurance. Back then it was. I remember the expression it's not, it's not what you know, it's who you know. So no, going back to your question, john, now, I can't remember anything meaningful or certainly anything inspiring about career guidance.

John Hawker: 16:55

Yeah, the concern for me having two young sons and God knows what the world of work is going to look like by the time they get to that point. It could have changed. You know it will have changed drastically in the next 15, 20 years. But yeah, my concern is that I don't know if career guidance has changed that much in the time since I was sat down with my career counsellor coming out of college and being told that these are the options and the routes available to you. I remember a couple of years after looking at people doing jobs, I was like I could have done that. No one told me that that was an avenue I could have gone down. So I think I asked, because I'm interested, what your experience around that time was. So I appreciate you trying to dig back. I know it's hard because, it was a while ago.

Jonathan Newell: 17:41

But, as I say, I'm sure I sat down with someone at some point and had a conversation to say it was uninspiring. Nothing stuck in your mind.

John Hawker: 17:50

Well, there we go. I think the proof's in the pudding. Yeah, you said that your parents sat you down and made you write your CV out. Yeah, they were against you going to uni.

Jonathan Newell: 17:59

No, Not at all. They just wanted me to get out there and get a job, okay. And no, not at all. They just wanted me to get out there and get a job, okay, and get going, yeah. So I needed them to give me a kick up the backside sometimes, right, I was a typical 18 year old John. Yeah, I just think, ah, tomorrow, like I'm young, forever, type, yeah, yeah, attitude, you know I'll do that next time. I mean, my parents were amazing parents. They wanted to see me get on and pull my finger out. It was evident that I wasn't academic Right, insofar as, funnily enough now, being academic really interests me. So if I could go, if I could study A-level maths or whatever it is, or statistics, I would do that in a heartbeat.

John Hawker: 18:42

Yeah, now, yeah, understood.

Jonathan Newell: 18:45

Seeing what education is like, yeah. So my parents basically said yeah, you need to get a job. If you're staying under our roof, you've got to pay us a bit of rent, yeah.

John Hawker: 18:54

Was it a difference between your two older brothers? Were they what you would classify as academic, or was it kind of a similar vein?

Jonathan Newell: 19:08

So I didn't pass my 11 plus. They did okay, right? Um, I wouldn't say that they were academic. So they both went to south end high school, a local grammar school. Yep, I wouldn't say that they were academic though. Okay, so I think they got by at south end. I don't think they flew or had any aspirations to go on to university after that, so so both fell into the city way of life after A-Level yeah.

John Hawker: 19:27

It's just an interesting dynamic because I look at me and my brother. It's only 18 months apart from me and my brother, so we're a lot closer in age. But I just wonder how the experience of your older siblings going through that kind of journey getting roles in London may have played a part in your parents saying, yeah, you know, that's a good route, that's honest work, they're making good money, they're making successes, whatever the I know it's quite a subjective term, but making a success of what they're doing up there, then, yeah, maybe that route is one that you can follow. I was like well.

Jonathan Newell: 19:57

Going back to the point about career going, I was really lacking some inspiration. You needed a bit of direction.

Jonathan Newell: 20:06

No idea what I wanted to do being a marine biologist out the window because my lack of sort of trauma I had for my, for my swimming teachers, so she scuppered the only career I wanted to do. So, yeah, and as, as we just mentioned, career guidance was non-existent at all. Right, yeah, I was in an environment where I had two brothers who were successful in the city. It just seemed a natural path to go down and follow.

John Hawker: 20:28

Yeah, understood, okay, so you've now. So you fell into insurance. Yeah, Little bit of signposting from your brother in that he'd been working in that world.

Jonathan Newell: 20:38

Both my brothers, yeah. Both your brothers, both my brothers, yeah.

John Hawker: 20:41

You've been working in 30 years. What's kept you working in it? What's kept you doing this for for almost three decades?

Jonathan Newell: 20:50

I found it to be something that I was quite good at okay going back to the relationship piece, yeah, I enjoy striking relationships with new people. I think I'm pretty good at that. Going back to the empathy piece and the emotional intelligence thing not wanting to be disparaging about my industry it doesn't take much to differentiate yourself between other people. So if you it's an industry that's quite maybe not so much now, but certainly when I was in the industry and certainly in the early stages of my setting up my own business and businesses. It's an industry that's quite easy to coast at. Okay, and just hide within a big organisation and just push some paper about.

Jonathan Newell: 21:29

Yeah, so it's quite easy to hide. So it doesn't take much If you show a bit of aptitude, a bit of innovation, challenge the status quo, push the envelope on that a bit, it doesn't take much to be that much more different to everyone else. Okay, yeah, so it was that angle that I realised quite early on that it was full of opportunity. Because of that there was a lot of opportunity. Yeah, because the bar if I'm, yeah, the bar, wasn't't that? Even for someone that wasn't particularly particularly academic, I'm quite, I think, at heart I'm quite a creative person, okay, anyway. So a real trigger for me is if someone says you can't do that right, then you bet your bottom dollar. You better watch out, matey, because I'm going to come and do it right that really motivates me for some reason, Nice yeah.

Jonathan Newell: 22:16

So insurance is a very back then. It's changing. Now I keep on saying that because I don't want to do anyone a disservice, because it is changing. It is becoming much more innovative, which is great. Yeah.

Jonathan Newell: 22:27

But it was a really static, grey middle-aged man, white middle-aged man kind of type job. It ticks all those kind of boxes, yeah yeah. So for me to challenge that a bit in my own way, I think, opened up some doors for me and that's what kept me in the industry, because I thought, okay, I can be my own person in an industry that's quite static, yeah, and like, make a, make a difference, yeah.

John Hawker: 22:50

That again resonates. I try not to bring everything back to me, although my other half would disagree, but it resonates again. I think there's some parallels between that bar being quite low in the space that I work in and, I think, being able to identify ways in which you can differentiate yourself and I talk a lot about personal brand, and I think maybe what you were seeing was an opportunity then to make you know, to start to build your own route, your own path in a sector that was kind of, I guess, very traditional as well, wasn't it? Like it would have been quite institutionalised most organisations too, yeah, so maybe an earlier disruptor of that insurance industry.

Jonathan Newell: 23:31

Maybe Potentially. Yeah, yeah, maybe.

John Hawker: 23:34

It's an interesting one. That's great. So, your strength being emotional intelligence, you found a way to harness the relationship side of things as the primary focus and that helped you progress. Do you think it certainly?

Jonathan Newell: 23:48

didn't hurt, right? Okay, it certainly didn't hurt. I think that I struck some good relationships with some good people and built trust. Okay, I think trust is an underestimated commodity. It's not a commodity, it's not there to be traded at the end of the day, but it is an asset. So being able to gain the trust of influential people and not abuse that trust has certainly helped me. Yeah.

Jonathan Newell: 24:16

Okay, just being an authentic, decent person and not trying to look for the quick, immediate buck and everything. It's about long-term relationships. It's always been drilled into me, from my dad as well, about long-term relationships. You don't know where they might lead. Yeah, it's a really good point. Yeah, what did your dad do for a living? So he was in the printing trade. Okay, so he was um in the printing trade. Okay, so he was a. He was a entrepreneur. He ran his own business.

Jonathan Newell: 24:40

Wow, yeah, um, but he had some really difficult times. So when I was I get my years wrong, but it's probably like mid early 80s when I would be at wesley at junior school and that's when mortgage rates were what crikey 17, 18%. So he went through some real dark days. Yeah, real, real difficult days with all of that.

Jonathan Newell: 25:02

I remember that growing up as a kid yeah and I think that might be a motivator for me as well. Seeing some there was, I wouldn't say we're on the bread line, but there was some real tough times. Yeah, growing up as a kid and I remember our carpet at home. There were parts of it that were a bit threadbare. I was mortified by it, really Just so embarrassed. I didn't want to have friends around. Wow, because I thought school life was tricky as it was already. Yeah, yeah, got you. Yadda, yadda, yadda.

John Hawker: 25:42

So I think there was a big part of me that. What drives me now is think I'll never want to be in that position. Yeah, did you come out the other side like?

Jonathan Newell: 25:44

so you, so your dad was still running the print business on the other side of that. Did it fail? It failed, yeah, from what I remember, I was very young and it was probably back in the time when people didn't really talk about failure. It was. It was potentially a sign of weakness. Sign of weakness very taboo, especially like for men. Um, back then. So, yeah, um, the business failed, my mum had to go back to work. I mean, she, she raised three boys. Yeah, um, when, that, when his business failed, he, my mum, had to go back to work. So, yeah, it was tough times and my dad found work after, yeah, that, working for another company yeah, but not his own business, yeah so, yeah, there was some definitely definite tough times, but it was their grit.

Jonathan Newell: 26:22

I was gonna say it's like that proper east end grit. I mean that they, they don't think they may have been very, very young when the war started again my years are all out of kilter, but it's that true east end spirit, kind of post blitz, kind of like just get on and do it, yeah. Yeah, stop moaning about it, mate. Yes, get on, yeah oh, it seemed.

John Hawker: 26:40

It seems, if you're around that and you're experiencing that at a young age, it's got to instill some sort of at least an ethic or resilience about you too.

Jonathan Newell: 26:49

And it sounds like that's what it's done yes, yeah, yeah, I think that's fair comment okay early, so early years, you start as a clerk in the insurance industry.

John Hawker: 26:59

You talked about, I would imagine, a lot of back office, a lot of admin, as you said, a lot of making teas, a lot of kind of being bottom of the pile and being chat on to a degree earning your stripes and coming up through the ranks as well. Ever put off, ever wanting to turn around Again? Did that resilience kick in and be like? No, this is not a bad experience. I'm learning every day. There's incremental progress each time. Did you ever think about doing something different, or did you stay the course and see the kind of benefits of doing?

Jonathan Newell: 27:29

that there was a period in my career where I worked for a company and with someone where I had real doubts about what I was doing right, that was more to do with the environment that I was in okay, yeah, more than anything else. But a great learning curve as well. I was in a company that that grew really quickly from quite a small business to quite a big business quite quickly and I saw all the good things that came with that growth, but also sat in real time and witnessed things not to do, okay. So there's a big learning curve through all that, but there were again some difficult times around that. That was probably more to do with who I was working with.

John Hawker: 28:14

As in individuals, in businesses, or the way it was managed.

Jonathan Newell: 28:17

I was working with as in individuals, in businesses, or the way it was managed. That had, quite say, quite a meteoric kind of influence over me as a human Right, okay, in a real powerful way. And the words that they used I don't know how to express this. Yeah.

Jonathan Newell: 28:32

So it was someone that I admired, had a huge amount of control over me. Right it was someone that I admired had a huge amount of control over me Right, and their words would often dictate whether I was having a good day or a bad day Right, and how I felt about myself. So there were some real difficult times with that, and good times as well. There were some good times and bad times with that.

John Hawker: 28:53

How long were you part of that dynamic then?

Jonathan Newell: 28:56

So seven eight years, Seven eight years, Okay, Seven eight years.

John Hawker: 28:58

Okay, seven, eight years. And what was the catalyst then to stop that? Did that result in you leaving it?

Jonathan Newell: 29:06

got to the point where, for my own mental wellbeing and by this time I'd met my then girlfriend, she's now my wife it got to a point where it just wasn't sustainable for me to be in that kind of relationship yeah with that person. Unfortunately, it was the hardest thing to like sever that and break that because I knew the repercussions that it could have right to other people.

Jonathan Newell: 29:29

Okay, the reason I'm being vague is that the other person involved has probably got their side of the story. Yeah, of course. Yeah, I mean it's a bit. I think it's despite how I feel about the situation. It's they're not here to put their side forward and I don't want to be disrespectful of that, regardless of how I feel about it personally.

John Hawker: 29:46

Yeah, of course yeah, I think what you mentioned earlier about, um, you know, having this emotional attachment to your work and it potentially being emotionally, emotionally draining experience doing your job. I think that can be exacerbated when there is a particular individual that you admire and you respect. And again, I just want to share my experience so you know that it's not a completely, um, isolated thing. I had a very similar thing. I I worked with my previous director who I loved, like he, like he was one of my best friends, closest people in my life, and the relationship ended really badly because I felt like I was being and this isn't to put words in your mouth, this is my own experience but I felt like I was being manipulated and undervalued in a range of different ways and I had to break that relationship off.

John Hawker: 30:38

And it was. It was. It was like a breakup. It was like a the breakup of a relationship. It isn't how, when I'm advising people to hand their notice in, to try and be, to try and separate that heart, part of you you know, don't get so connected with it.

John Hawker: 30:51

I, yeah, it was like I was mourning the loss of a relationship and we've not spoken since. That's five years ago. Okay, again, I don't know the ins and outs of it, but I just wanted to share that because I don't want you to feel like it's an isolated incident. I think that will resonate with a lot of people, that connection thing.

Jonathan Newell: 31:08

Definitely. So, to make that decision. It's the least shit option.

John Hawker: 31:13

Yes, Just to look after myself. Less of two evils, isn't it?

Jonathan Newell: 31:17

option. Yes, just to look after two evils, isn't it?

Jonathan Newell: 31:18

it is, it's the least shit option I mean whatever I do, someone's gonna be really upset and pissed off and hurt, but it got to a point where I just couldn't sacrifice my own well-being anymore. Yeah, and, as I say, I'm sure he's got a completely different view of it, and which is absolutely fine, and there's what's the saying there's three sides to every story. So, yeah, as I say, just mindful that we're in the conversation, the other person I'm talking about is not here to defend himself or put his side of the story but I think a lot of that experience has perhaps given me the drive as to who I am today.

Jonathan Newell: 31:47

So when I cut ties I had to succeed. I had no choice. It was sink or swim. I just had to try really hard. And not the most academic, I'm like to think I've got some. I know some decent people and I make good connections, but I'm certainly not the most well-connected person in by far, far from it. So I think the only thing that I had in my armory, or which I knew that no one that he couldn't or anyone else could take away from me, is that how hard I work yeah, so I was determined.

Jonathan Newell: 32:17

It doesn't matter if someone else has got an advantage over me, whatever it may be. No one's gonna work harder than me and I'll make that, whatever deficit I've got in an area yeah whether it's relationships um access to money. Whatever it is, I'll make up for it by just grafting. Yeah.

John Hawker: 32:35

So, Bear Rock wasn't the first time you went it alone, was it? So you've set up something beforehand, before Bear Rock. So talk me through the chronology then. So you stepped away from… so I stepped away from working in London, yep, for various reasons.

Jonathan Newell: 32:51

That's podcast number two, right? Okay, yeah, so in 2007, I stepped away. I think it was 2007,. I stepped away from where I was working and, for various reasons, I had restricted covenants, both on an employment contract, right, and I was a small minority shareholder, so I had clients in the shareholders agreement as well. Okay, yeah, which is a lot more complicated. I can imagine I had to sell my shares in order to release my covenants, right? So I complicated.

Jonathan Newell: 33:19

I can imagine to sell my shares in order to release my covenants right, so I was out of work for a long time, a couple of years, yeah, wow, um, during my time in london I became really friendly with a chap um who lives in jersey, called mike harman, and he was, um, I wouldn't say I wouldn't say a father figure, that's a stretch too far but he took me under his wing. He was an older guy, a generation above me, been around the market, seen it, done it. He took a real liking to me. I think he recognised that I was quite entrepreneurial at heart. Anyway, I reached out to him I said, mike, I've got this business idea. You don't fancy backing it?

Jonathan Newell: 33:57

I knew he was very successful in his own right and I knew he liked investing in the angel type investing in business. Understood, yeah, I flew out to Jersey and I pitched a business plan and he gave me the money to start my first venture, wow, which was an insurance broker and that still exists today. That's IFA ProShore. So that acts as an insurance broker and that still exists today. That's.

John Hawker: 34:18

IFA.

Jonathan Newell: 34:18

ProShore, so that acts as an insurance broker. Okay, yeah, and I worked, so that was 2009,. That got up and running and I started running that business then all the way through until 2018-ish Works.

John Hawker: 34:30

Yeah, Uh yeah, quick maths yeah quick maths.

Jonathan Newell: 34:32

I told you I wasn't academic, so 2018, fast forward to then. So IFA ProShare was growing very successful, but it's still me, by myself, running that business on my own For the entire time, right From 2009 to 2018.

Jonathan Newell: 34:46

Okay, yeah, and it grew and grew and grew. It was very successful and I was on holiday with my wife and our eldest we only had one child at the time Evie. We went to Mexico for which, on paper, was the holiday of dreams, right, bucket list stuff, right, amazing holiday. But I was there in body but not in spirit. I was just tied to my laptop and I was so stressed. I was stressed that I was working. I was stressed that I wasn't giving the attention to my family and to something I had to give. I didn't know how to grow a business back then. Right, I had no idea. So I wasn't a natural leader. I wasn't a natural team leader or manager Right, I was. I think I'll probably describe myself as a bit of a flair player, went out and did what I did. I knew what I was good at.

Jonathan Newell: 35:35

Yeah, and I did that air player went out and did what I did. I knew what I was good at, yeah, and I got that. Yeah, and running a business with me just in it was fine, yeah. But that business became almost too successful because it got to a point where I needed to get other people involved right but I had no idea how, how that looked like, what that felt like to start employing people start expanding.

Jonathan Newell: 35:53

So you get to a point where, well, I got to a point where I had to something fundamentally had to change because what I was doing was not sustainable. So I sat down with my wife I said what do I do? And I had these great ideas about investing in small businesses around. Lee wanted to get a cafe like diversify into other stuff yeah, and my wife sat me down.

Jonathan Newell: 36:16

She went Jonathan, why are you thinking like that? She basically said you're really good at what you do. Just do that, but just do more of it. Scale up, Grow. So I thought, okay, let's give that a go. Reached out to a pal of mine and he joined me shortly after that. Yeah.

Jonathan Newell: 36:34

There was a client of mine and his name's John and he was a client of mine and his name's John and he was a customer and he sold his business. He was part of a bigger business. He sold his business, sold out of that, wanted to try something different. We had a conversation. There was a route into my business, so he came along and then Bear Rock was really. It's a natural progression of what IFA ProShore does. So IFA ProShore is an insurance broker. Bear Rock is set up as a managing general agent, so it's an underwriting agency. Okay. So instead of us acting as agent for our customer in placing an insurance policy, we act as agent for our insurer. So the insurer gives us their authority to underwrite business on their behalf, understood, okay, and there's a lot more of a, there's a lot more rigour becoming an underwriting agency than it is an insurance broker, because the underwriter is giving us the pen. Yes, they're trusting us to gamble with their capacity and make sure we give them a return. Yeah.

Jonathan Newell: 37:33

So there's a lot more loads, more hoops to jump through with all of that and that journey has been really interesting. I knew it would be difficult, um, but yeah, it's taken about. It's taken about three years to get bear rock off the ground with all the stuff and run that in conjunction with an existing broker business yeah, yeah.

John Hawker: 37:49

So take me back to that holiday in mexico, because so much what you're saying resonates with me. Again, I've been. I've been running a business. I'd say I'm good at running a business as a lifestyle business, as in it it affords me the lifestyle I want to me and my family want to live. I've had opportunities to grow it. I don't know how like I hold my hands up and say that experience isn't in my wheelhouse, but I know how to run it as it stands at the moment. But I've had that sounds like a weird thing to say separately, but I've had holidays where I, too, have been very disconnected and I've been there, sat there, but I've been on my phone and I've been just mentally completely detached from what's going on around me. So you're in Mexico. Was that the catalyst, because you reference it for a reason? Was it there that you realised that this is the break where I need to change what I'm doing?

Jonathan Newell: 38:43

It was building up until that point. Yeah, okay, it was building, it was a pressure cooker, and I think it was the realisation of me being on holiday, spending at the time and is now a hell of a lot of money and not enjoying it. I thought, wow, I think that kind of crystallized in my mind that something's got to change, whereas before I think I just kept on pushing it away. Yeah, it'll get better. I'll find a smarter way to a smarter way of working. Yeah, so it will figure it out. And just ignoring the situation. Yeah, but I was like snapping at my wife. I was like not with particularly being attentive to my two-year-old, not as attentive as I would like to have been. Yes, just distracted. So I'll just quickly. I just quickly check my emails again. Yeah, I'll have a quick check, whereas you know what I should be doing is just watching my two-year-old build a sandcastle yes that's what I should be doing yeah and not just watching it, but taking it in and enjoying it.

Jonathan Newell: 39:37

Yeah, being present, being mindful, yeah. So, yeah, I thought that was the something's got to change time. Something's got to fundamentally change because it wasn't tenable doing what I was doing Okay.

John Hawker: 39:51

So the creation of Bear Rock. Do you feel now that you've got I'm going to call it balance? Do you feel like you've got a better balance? Was there further sacrifice that you had to make to get Bayrock off the ground? I would imagine you're sacrificing something, aren't you? Investment of energy, time, whatever that is. Whether the end goal is to get a better balance or not. Do you feel like you're closer? Let's say, do you feel like you're closer to getting the balance that you thought about in Mexico?

Jonathan Newell: 40:26

Yes, do you feel like you're closer to getting the balance that you would? You thought about in mexico? Yes, I'm, I'm closer. Okay, um, it feels like it's achievable. Okay, I'm not there. Yeah, I'm not there, but there's a lot of comfort. I take a lot of comfort in the fact that I can see it. Yeah, it's tangible to me that that that balance, yeah, isn't too far away. And in the meantime, I've been learning a bit more about myself, thinking about how I am. So people probably call me a control freak type, a personality um, highly stressed. Everything's got to be perfect. We have a, we have a, we have a regular cleaner at home, but no one makes my bed, apart from me that's really a control freak I am yeah, right, no one can make it as well as I can right.

Jonathan Newell: 41:02

So there were occasions where a cleaner may come around and make my bed, and I'll remake it really just give you an idea.

John Hawker: 41:08

Yeah, yeah, no, it helps paint a picture?

Jonathan Newell: 41:10

definitely yeah. So yeah, I'm a. I can be accused of being a bit of a bit of a perfectionist in that regard okay um, but yes, I can see that vision now and I think the thing that has really helped me and I might be stealing a question and jumping ahead a bit here, but the thing that's really helped me most recently is that I've got a mentor helping me okay, this is really interesting.

Jonathan Newell: 41:33

Yeah. So I knew where I wanted to get to, both from my personal life and a business life, but I haven't done it before. Right, I haven't trodden the path that I'm walking down now. So I, despite being controlling and think I know it all and I can do it all, and it's a sign of weakness, asking for help and all that kind of stuff that I've ingrained in myself somewhere along my life's journey, it occurred to me that I need to get someone in to help me personally, to understand me and how you grow and scale a business.

Jonathan Newell: 42:10

And having that insight from someone who's trodden the path that I'm going down, taking advice from someone who isn trodden the path that I'm going down, taking advice from someone who hasn't, who isn't where you are or isn't going to go where you're heading, there's no, don't listen to those people is my advice. So I pick someone who's from my industry, a 50 year veteran in the industry, has a record of growing and scaling businesses and is really good at the leadership stuff. One of the skills I lack is, I think I lack you don't get taught management. You don't get taught leadership. I didn't get taught that it might be more prevalent now.

Jonathan Newell: 42:47

But those are the skills now that I need to be really good at. My business is growing, we're employing more people and my mentor is all about democratising power. Just give it to other people to do not delegate, but just like. It's a good leadership skill. So I see myself. I'm a bit of a simon cynic fan boy, I guess to an extent. Right, yeah, um, I've watched a bit of a few of his stuff, but a lot of it resonates with me. Um, I want to be there to serve the people that work for me ultimately, and not the other way around. I don't want them to serve me. But how do I do that? I don't know. Cue mentor.

John Hawker: 43:28

Cue mentor. Yeah, I've got a couple of questions on the back of that. Then, jonathan, as a self-confessed control freak, how does it make you feel to democratise that power, democratise that leadership, democratise management, whatever you say? Is it that you've had to learn to get comfortable with?

Jonathan Newell: 43:45

I would imagine yes, right Goes back to your point about my, your earlier point about where I want to get to in my life personally. Right To have that freedom to be able to be present with my family and kids. I can't something. I can't have both. I can't control everything at work. Something's got to give, yeah, something's got to give, and it feels like. It also feels like I've employed people who are smarter than me, not in every respect, but they, they all have their certain skills and there's certain areas of expertise and they are better at those areas than I am. I've also been very mindful of the fact that I've employed people who, um, have very different outlooks on how we should run the business not very different, but they bring a fresh, different perspective. They can challenge, challenge. We all bounce ideas off each other. So if we're all saying the same thing and all agreeing with one another, we're just being an echo chamber.

John Hawker: 44:45

I was going to say echo chamber, and it's so dangerous.

Jonathan Newell: 44:47

I see it. I've been in businesses like that. I see it from an outsider looking in. Where you talk to people within a business and they all say the same thing. They're where you talk to people within a business and they all say the same thing. They're all singing off the same hymn sheet. There's no internal challenge. I think that's a really bad thing. Personally, so I've always been very mindful to one. Employ people who I think have skills in areas that I'm weak at or they are certainly better than me at that. Perhaps bring a fresh perspective and a differing view. Going back to your question about yeah, yeah, it is an alien view about democratizing and giving up that or the power and the control, but it's something which I'm really embracing. Yeah, I'm excited about it, really excited about it and I.

John Hawker: 45:29

I think that's the main thing. I think people, if you just say I'm come, if your response to me would have been no, I'm, I'm comfortable with it. It's been a really smooth transition. I think I would have sat here and been slightly cynical, because I don't think you can be a control freak or want to have ownership of all these things, these variables, and be able to give that up willingly. It has to. It has to go against the grain for you to want to do that. So I would much rather if I was working for anyone, much rather be working for someone that identified that as a thing that they are working on, that they're embracing and they want to get better at and improve your mentor and this is something that I would like for the listeners to understand how do you go about so you get to a point where you say I need a mentor? How do you go about finding one? Is there is?

Jonathan Newell: 46:22

it as easy as mentorcom. What is the process that you go to? That's a great question. It was, um, it was pure fluke. Okay, I was reading, uh, an article, an insurance related article in one of the trade papers that was written, um, by Huxley, who's my mentor, right, and it was a really interesting article. I can't remember, say it's interesting Memory like a sieve, but it certainly piqued my interest and at the end it had the bio about the writer and it said Mark Huxley, and it mentioned a bit about his career and he acted as a mentor. Oh, that's interesting. So I jumped on his website, reached out to him. Lo and behold, the epicenter of insurance is essex, right, so he lives in oh, there you go.

Jonathan Newell: 47:05

Yeah, not um, just down the road, just down the road um, so no, I mean, it was a case where and my first phone call with him oh, again, that's quite an emotional moment because he just turned around and said it's really lonely at the top, isn't it? I just almost burst out crying do you? Feel like you were heard at that point mate.

Jonathan Newell: 47:22

Yeah, it's emotional now just thinking because it is lonely. There's a lot of we're a small business but I take the responsibility for for my family, for my business, for my customers, but, most importantly, for the people that have chosen to work with me and come on the journey with me. I take that responsibility so heavy, yeah, like, but almost so to be heard and to say, yeah, it's really lonely. Somehow I'm talking to someone who gets it, gets it, who's been where I've been, who understands it. So that was just. Even having that kind of conversation was just like a releasing the pressure cooker a bit. Yeah, it's a tiny bit.

John Hawker: 48:02

Oh, wow, it's not just me yeah, so if you needed a sign that that was the person, yeah, that you wanted to go down that road with, yeah, had he had he had. So, on the back of seeing this article, you reached out to him. How do you go about then? You just ask him would you consider being a mentor?

Jonathan Newell: 48:21

Yeah, so we hooked up for a coffee. Yeah. A local cafe Got on really well. He told me what his hourly rate was.

Jonathan Newell: 48:31

And the great thing, I think, where I was really fortunate in finding Hux. He's got a stellar career in insurance. He's been there, seen it, done it and he mentors for the love of it. For the love of it, he genuinely enjoys seeing entrepreneurs do well and help them help help entrepreneurs with an innovational type spirit. So it comes from the heart for him. He doesn't do it for the money, it's not a transactional thing. My impression of mentors up until that point was a transactional type relationship. So I hadn't been mentored before. But that was kind of the impression that I was left with. I thought, okay, someone's going to pull my pants down every week for a few hundred quid an hour and you're going to see no real impact.

John Hawker: 49:14

All I'm going to see no real impact.

Jonathan Newell: 49:15

No real, just get a lot of consultancy speak thrown at me. Yeah, no real, as you say, impact. And so I really struck it lucky because, yeah, he does it for the love of it.

John Hawker: 49:26

I think that's really good advice for people to take on, though, if they are getting to a point in their career and they're considering or have heard the term mentor and then starting to think, well, how do I secure one, how do I match with one, how do I find one?

John Hawker: 49:40

Well, actually, I've had a lot of people say that they found their mentors in a very similar way to you did like. Sometimes it's immersing yourself in in sort of I guess industry content to see who's then attributed to creating that content and then having the wherewithal and that kind of proactivity around you to go. I'm going to reach out to them and spark up a conversation. I think there's a lot of positives around that not just getting yourself a mentor but I think that's a really good route to go down, and you don't need people that are touting themselves as mentors to make good mentors. Actually, you might argue this, but sometimes the people that don't think they're the right, don't think they're a mentor, sometimes are the best. Yes, because they're doing it with, as you said, this intrinsic drive for the love of it and to see you succeed.

Jonathan Newell: 50:23

And it's opened my eyes up that at some point in the future it's something that I'd like to give back at some point yeah. When I know, when I've learned more about myself when I've scaled my business. Yeah. Done all that good stuff. Yeah, I can imagine it's really rewarding to be able to do that definitely.

John Hawker: 50:40

I think that's some of the feedback I've got. I know a few mentors um that say I mean they do charge for it, but from a um you know it's not all completely altruistic but what they're getting back from giving their time and seeing that person succeed is as much of a a win for them as, or more of a win for them than getting uh yeah, getting their invoice paid, but yeah gotta make sure the chemistry's right, though there's no point just getting a mentor for the sake of a mentor of course just, it's not a box ticking exercise.

John Hawker: 51:08

You've got to really gel yeah and the mentor's got to challenge you as well, going back to the point of surrounding yourself with people who perhaps think differently to you or have a different outlook did you, do you feel because, again, that initial thing, it's lonely at the top, that's a, that's a message that resonates straight away over the course of that coffee, did you, did you just feel there was a rapport and that trust because you've got, you've got to? There's an element of rolling the dice to a degree, isn't there? Based on the back of a, a coffee, you can, and as a, you know, with a high level of emotional intelligence, hopefully then you're in a better position to assess this is going to work or not. But you're still rolling the dice. There's still a risk, yes, but it's wrong. But at the end of that, you've got that feeling that I can trust this person. Yeah, and we're on the same wavelength, definitely, but you can invest that time, that time up front I guess you both do to ensure there's the match.

Jonathan Newell: 51:59

Yes, and it was to start off with. It was just suck it and see. There was no kind of pressure as to how that relationship would pan out. Just do a couple of hours a month just to explore the relationship, to see if it had any merit in exploring it further. Yeah.

John Hawker: 52:22

And it's got to the stage now where he's um joined as a non-exec chairman of the business brilliant, yeah, so what a great contact to have made.

Jonathan Newell: 52:24

Oh, very fortunate. How long ago was that jonathan? So I met him about a year ago. Okay, hucks recently became yeah, non-exec chairman in january.

John Hawker: 52:28

Yeah, last month fantastic and he's really well connected. Now you've said hucks and mark huxley. I think I did the name rings rings a bell because of some of the research that I did and I think I saw one of the I don't know if it was a press release.

John Hawker: 52:41

It might have been posted on LinkedIn that was announcing that as well. That's really good. I'm going to talk about fatherhood, if that's all right. Being a parent and I'll start with my anecdote of parenthood and how that changed me fundamentally exposed me in a lot of ways um, some really good, some not so good as well.

John Hawker: 53:05

I think what it really forced me to do is think about my relationship with work. I was still working at my previous agency at the time and I was someone that very much cared about that business, above and beyond what I was getting paid to care. I was taking that work home, spending weekends thinking about it. I was someone that very much cared about that business above and beyond what I was getting paid to care. I was taking that work home, spending weekends thinking about it. I was going in this love-hate relationship of why is no one valuing the fact that I give a shit about this all the time. My son came along and it just completely changed. Everything changed the landscape for me, and I'm interested to hear from your, your standpoint. You were running your business, your, your business is still running, but the first business that you you started? How did having your daughter change your your version of what success looked like?

Jonathan Newell: 53:50

it probably over emphasized my over controlling nature. Right, I just thought, okay, there's someone else that I love and care about and I can't let them down, so I've got to work harder. So it kind of it probably fuelled that part of me. Rather than taking the view, take a step back from work and perhaps turn my attention to family, I perhaps went the other way with them so not ignoring my daughter it wasn't an epiphany for me, right, having my first child as in oh my god, like the way I look at the world's completely changed it.

Jonathan Newell: 54:32

The world didn't flip on its head and I thought differently about anything. It just felt that, um, someone else got to care about. I wanted to be a really good role model for them and a good example in terms of work ethic, as I had with with my parents as well. Um, and my wife gave up work at that point as well, so there was another salary to fill. Yeah, um, for for me, uh, and the business.

John Hawker: 54:56

So it sounds like it was a bit of a force multiplier in a way.

Jonathan Newell: 55:00

Yeah, yeah, I'm just trying to ponder that it probably exacerbated some of the traits that I've got in me as opposed to introduced new ones. Right, if that makes sense, yeah, it does.

John Hawker: 55:12

Yeah, it really does. I think to clarify when I talk about everything changing my son came along I still had all what I say, my self-serving drivers Like I still again, funnily enough, the previous guest, I was speaking to this stigma that sometimes gets poured on parents that admit I go to work because I enjoy it. I go to work because there's an intrinsic drive, things that I want to achieve. I'm not doing it all for my family. Yes, I want to provide for my family, but selfishly. I do this podcast. It's for me, like I do. I do various elements of my role for me, and the money that I make provides for my family. But I still have drivers and things I want to achieve myself.

John Hawker: 55:54

And we were talking about this narrative that a lot of a lot of parents say it's all about my kids. You know I'm doing everything for them. I don't side with that. I think there's elements of it and you have to strike the right balance.

John Hawker: 56:07

But I've got no shame in admitting I have this self-serving side, that I'm doing things because I want to do them and I'm not just I'm using air quotes. I always have to say that I'm not just a parent, I'm not just a dad, um, but I think, from from your description there, everything that you did was still driven by this new human being that you had to provide for, but it was just a force multiplied. Say, you've got more responsibility, you've got someone else coming to your life that you want to take care of and, as you say, it exacerbated those things like the, the control element, the drive, wanting to be a success, and made that even more of a focus which is pros and cons yeah, absolutely, and that the things that I could control was my work life yes, right okay, so I can't control a newborn baby, no one can.

Jonathan Newell: 56:54

Wish you could, oh my God, wish you could, but you can't. So, yeah, so I probably threw myself into work, but it was, it was sleepless nights, john, you know. You know all this, yeah, all the good stuff that goes with it, but I, no, not an epiphany for me in that respect of like changing my outlook at all, but yeah, as you say, a false multiplier, yeah, interesting, maybe.

John Hawker: 57:23

Maybe then I can phrase it in a slightly different way, and it's not to keep probing at the point, but it might be a slightly different take on on a similar, a similar topic, and I think this is probably a bit more prevalent, given this delegation of your leadership and management having started bear rock with a view of wanting a better work-life balance. But has your definition of what, what is enough or what enough looks like, changed? Now we're getting to the point all right yeah, yeah, what is enough?

John Hawker: 57:48

yes, yeah, do you think about it enough? Because I know in times where I just coast, it's cold.

Jonathan Newell: 57:57

No, I don't coast, so I always think what's next. So if anyone that's working with me listens to this podcast, they're probably thinking about resigning round about now.

John Hawker: 58:09

It's a common trait? I think definitely.

Jonathan Newell: 58:12

So, quite often throughout my career, there have been some pivotal moments where we had to achieve a certain thing in order to progress and move forward. So we had to have some big meetings and big pitches. There was a lot of pressure on those pitches and meetings to get the outcome that we wanted. So a lot of effort, emotional effort, went into said pitches, said meetings, which took weeks of planning, of planning, for example, and we would invariably get the outcome that we wanted and I would feel nothing.

Jonathan Newell: 58:43

I would feel exhausted, I feel empty and a bit like so the the, which I think is a real shame. That's one part of me I feel quite sad about. If I'm being honest, I wish I had, I wish I could appreciate that more and celebrate the small little wins in what we're doing. But I'm finding that difficult and I wish I could. Yeah, so what? What is it I'm? What am I trying to strive for and achieve? I'm still figuring that out. Yeah, I'm still figuring that out. It doesn't seem to matter. I set myself a target, I achieve it and I feel nothing. So I set myself a bigger target, achieve it, feel nothing, and I'm very much aware of that. Yes, I'm very aware of it.

John Hawker: 59:28

So I think that's the first step in the right direction definitely figure that out to understand myself a bit more to be in denial of that, I think is quite dangerous and to to not acknowledge that it's a part of you. And and the reason I'm smiling and nodding along is because it's exactly the same like if you spoke, if you spoke to my behalf, and it is lonely at the top or it's lonely in a business. Hopefully now you've, you feel like you've got more people around you, so there's there's a more sense of, I don know, togetherness and a shared joy in some of those achievements maybe, but when you are very siloed and working independently, you don't pat yourself on the back. There's hardly it, because you're on to the next thing straight away On to the next thing.

John Hawker: 1:00:07

Yeah, so I don't think again, you're not in isolation with that. I think it's a very common trait, especially with entrepreneurs and people that want progress and to build and to go on to the next thing. It's an art form, I think, being able to be mindful and present for those little wins. I think that's the harder bit. Yeah, that is the harder bit.

Jonathan Newell: 1:00:26

And I remember this, that we had this one big pitch that it was a three hour team's call mate and it was just like with about 10 people when it went on for ages and it was a roaring success. It went down. It was a meeting for us that we had to get this done, but the success of our business really hinged on how this landed to the people we were pitching to and it was very innovative.

Jonathan Newell: 1:00:47

It hasn't been done before All the sort of things that tickle my fancy, being a bit out there and it landed really well and afterwards I thought great, I just felt exhausted. Yeah, go and go bed. I didn't really care, I literally instantly didn't stop caring about it yeah, that's interesting, isn't it just like oh my god, but the build up to that sleepless nights 10 minutes before that meeting, my world depended on that meeting.

Jonathan Newell: 1:01:11

Yeah, everything depending on that meeting, and I catastrophized that if that meeting didn't go well, then I wouldn't have a house in six months.

Jonathan Newell: 1:01:19

Then, I don't know, I have to I don't know sell my car, whatever it is everything. My whole world would collapse. People wouldn't respect me, whatever it would be. Yeah, but as soon as I got what I wanted, it's like what's next? What can I do? How can I? Self-sabotage now was the kind of the thing. But going back to the point about democratizing and giving up that control to other people, I think that is the antidote to that. Yes, and seeing my business thrive, going forward, because you as part as a result of that.

Jonathan Newell: 1:01:52

Yeah the thing with bear rock. I've lost count the number of times that well, the number of people we have spoken to in our, in that journey of building that company, and we've spoken to loads of people just through interactions and being introduced Quite often very early on in those interactions and conversations. The question that I am asked is what's your exit game, what's your exit? And I just don't know how to answer that question.

Jonathan Newell: 1:02:17

I'm not here to flip my business, but it seems to be a really common question yeah at the moment, talking about democratization of my business, I sit in a place where I would like my business to outlive me. Okay, don't get me wrong, I would like to take some risk off the table at some point. Yeah, yeah, that'd be great. Yeah, um, but if I can, and if I can still add value to my business the older I get, then fantastic. If I can still be involved, add value, wonderful. But I've got it's for me. I would like to leave legacy. Is that too strong a word? I don't know, it's not because it's my next question which is I.

Jonathan Newell: 1:02:56

I told you. I was really. You've really thought as well. I can read your screen.

John Hawker: 1:03:00

Yeah, I mean legacy was definitely part of it. As in, how much does legacy leaving a legacy play in what you're building and what your plans for the future are, what your aspirations are? I think legacy is something that a lot of people think about, whether they label it as such or not, but it sounds like you've got an eye on it, yeah definitely I don't know, if it is something that people think about, is it?

Jonathan Newell: 1:03:23

I don't know.

John Hawker: 1:03:25

Oh yeah, I guess I'm being very… Maybe it's just the population of two in this room?

Jonathan Newell: 1:03:28

Yeah, potentially.

John Hawker: 1:03:29

I think… I don't know is the answer. I can only go on my personal experience which legacy is something that I think about and I I speak to. I think definitely in entrepreneurs and people that have built something themselves. Maybe it's more commonplace.

Jonathan Newell: 1:03:42

It's more prevalent for people that have done that, I'm sure so I often have a chat with people like if you got offered x x amount, would you walk away from it? I don't know, I don't think I would yeah, I don't think I would would.

Jonathan Newell: 1:03:54

so, yeah, the legacy thing, definitely. I'm very mindful of the fact I think about death, probably a bit too often, being an over thinker. But I'm very mindful of the fact that I'm middle aged now and that's a weird thing, right. I think I've hit that age where I think, all of a sudden, the cohort of people that I deal with a lot of them are younger than me now and that's a weird tip. I'm in that transition, it's a strange inflection point where I still think I'm one of the young ones, right, and it's not. I'm not at all, and that's trying to wrap my head around that. But anyway, sorry death, let's go.

John Hawker: 1:04:29

Let's go back to that.

Jonathan Newell: 1:04:37

But I'm very mindful of the fact that, yeah, I'm 46 this year, that I've still got plenty of good years ahead of me, but my career there is an end point to that at some point. So what happens then? I just don't want to. I don't want to finish work. I still want to contribute and do something. Give back mentor, see my business grow, pass it on to someone else to to do something with it and carry on the initiatives and the innovation that I started off with, but yeah.

Jonathan Newell: 1:04:59

I don't know what. I'm still trying to unpick. What legacy means for me? I would like something. I would like to leave behind something that's made a difference, regardless of how small in my small little bit of small universe, of small part of the insurance universe that I operate in, make a difference. We are doing something completely innovative. We are doing something completely innovative. We are doing something completely different and if it makes a change, then great, but I don't want to sell it we'll put that message out there. Jonathan's not looking to sell it.

John Hawker: 1:05:31

I think you make a really good point. A legacy is subjective and it can mean different things to different people. There is a definition, obviously, of what legacy is, but you have to get an idea of what that, what that is for you, um. So that's a good point to have made yeah.

Jonathan Newell: 1:05:45

So I don't want people to come to my grave and think, oh, jonathan, innovation, innovator of insurance, or innovator of this bit of insurance, or, or, or anything like that. But it's.

John Hawker: 1:05:55

All these cliches aren't there? There's a big narrative. I mean, I spend most of my days on LinkedIn because I work in recruitment and this is what I do and there's so much pressure. Now I think there's like a quite a famous video going around on a lot of social media apps oh God, I sound old when I say that, but like Instagram being an example, but it's talking about you know in, in five years after you die, what are people going to remember about you?

John Hawker: 1:06:18

yes or what are people going to say about you at your um, your epitaph or whatever it is, and or your eulogy, and yeah, they're not going to say how many years you spent working and doing this and that that is really powerful. But when you're in work, I think it could be quite disparaging sometimes and almost like for me if I think about it too much. I'm like what am I fucking doing it all for? Then, like you have to, it's difficult, isn't it, to kind of go like I want, you know, I'm doing it now because it's important. I can't have one without the other. It's, you know, it's a symbiotic relationship. I need to live my life.

Jonathan Newell: 1:07:02

Sorry, there are wires over there. Um, yeah, I need to live my life.

John Hawker: 1:07:03

I need to focus on my work, and it can't all be about the eulogy, because I also need money, to you know now, and you want a sense of fulfillment, right, exactly, and that's something comes from work, yeah, work fulfills, fulfills me as well. Don't get me wrong.

Jonathan Newell: 1:07:09

There are some difficult days and some challenging days where I just want to scream and shout at work. Yeah, um, generally, I find it really fulfilling and I enjoy it. But I know exactly the Instagram post that you're referring to. Yeah, and yeah, as you say, quite disparaging. It also talks about the car that you buy is going to be like a pile of rust. That's it. You know exactly the one I know exactly.

Jonathan Newell: 1:07:30

So, yeah, and social media for me. I'm trying to stay off it a bit, because I think you can go down some real rabbit holes with that stuff and you start second. Well, I personally, I start second guessing myself about oh my God, look at that. I'm easily distracted by stuff, aren't you? But yeah, I think that's disparaging, as you say, I agree.

John Hawker: 1:07:56

Okay, I've got a couple more questions. I'm conscious of the time, but, um, I have to ask your advice because you are a successful entrepreneur and I'm sure you would label yourself as such as well, like looking at your, your track record say compliments at the moment.

Jonathan Newell: 1:08:10

Yeah, own it.

John Hawker: 1:08:12

Thanks, john, I'll take it you know, and this, this is going to be a question maybe you've pondered and might expect me to ask, or whatever, but I do have to ask because I think people will be genuinely interested. Do you have advice for people that want to go down that entrepreneurial route Insurance sector or not? Is there one bit of advice you would give anyone that's looking to set up on their own?

Jonathan Newell: 1:08:31

Don't do it on your own, okay, start it on your own, by all means. It depends where you want to get to. Okay, if you want to scale a business, you can't do it on your own. Yeah, reach out for some help. Get someone else to help help you do that and I my second. That person may be a mentor yeah, yeah so my one piece of advice is that if you want to do it, get someone trying to get someone on the journey with you yeah because it's it's, it's lonely, it's lonely at the top.

John Hawker: 1:08:58

Yeah, it's really lonely yeah, no, I, I would. I would attest to that as well, and, um, put my voice in on that for sure. Okay, two more things there's. You've alluded to it already and I think I mentioned this when asking you to come on and be a guest. So thank you for for investing so much your time in this.

John Hawker: 1:09:16

A running theme across all of the guests that I'm speaking to in season two is that they are entrepreneurs, business owners or creatives that are operating or have started ventures in and around Leon C and Southend as well. I have broadened the net slightly only a couple and my feeling is that the concentration of people doing their own thing around this area is particularly high in comparison to other places in in what is still a very small town. Am I, am I on to something there, jonathan, in terms of, is that a fair fact to say that the concentration is high around leon c, and do you think there's a particular reason as to why that's the case? That's a question I haven't pondered. I'm going to throw at you anyway.

Jonathan Newell: 1:09:59

No, no. It's a really good question and having. My immediate reaction is yes, I think there is a high concentration. I mean we know mutual friends, entrepreneurs, business owners locally. We're fortunate to live in a town that hasn't been taken over by big high street brands there's a few, so there's certainly got that strong entrepreneurial spirit because I think, yeah, those high street brands haven't come in and taken up all those kind of spaces.

John Hawker: 1:10:23

Yeah, I think the resistance to those high street brands coming in when they have sort of come up on the outskirts too. I'm going to reference Costa Coffee coming into Lee Broadway and people up in arms about it, and subsequently it hasn't lasted in the broadway it's now out as well. So it's, I think, independence and our resistance to letting chains in. That's kind of where I started this thought process, just walking down lee road, lee broadway, and thinking there are so many independent shops, not just retail. We've got a whole, you know a whole mix of different industries going on down there. That's why I wanted to speak to you too, because there's a reason, I guess, coming out of london starting the business from here and operating it, and from sort of a essex-based business too, I think I just didn't know if there was something behind it.

John Hawker: 1:11:11

My previous guest said something about this attitude of collaboration and one and and maybe this feeling that there's a um, a community around here that want to see people do well too. I think that's a general thing to say. That's fair. You might have pockets of someone that's sort of staring at you, hoping you're crashing, but it does seem to be that the community wants to lift other people up. You've invested time coming in to speak to me. Every guest has got a busy business that has come in. Yes, I have these discussions and I'm not paying you to do it. There's a bit of self-promotion there, but I think for the most part people just want to see others do well, yeah, I think that's fair as you say that's the sort of community spirit that we, that we've got living in a small town.

Jonathan Newell: 1:11:53

um yeah, everyone wants to cheer everyone else on and if I can shop locally at Independent versus going somewhere else or a big supermarket, for example, then I always would. That's a natural mindset and I think I've almost picked that up just through osmosis, just living in Leigh. It just feels normal. That's why I'm pondering your question. It's like wow, I'm trying to put myself in a position what it might feel like for someone coming out of the area, outside of the area, visiting Leigh.

John Hawker: 1:12:24

Yes, well, as you said, you're born and bred, aren't you?

Jonathan Newell: 1:12:28

So it's my natural habitat.

John Hawker: 1:12:29

Yeah, yeah, I mean, and again I'm going to say that I came. I was born in Raleigh, so I'm not a million miles away from Lee.

John Hawker: 1:12:37

Geographically we're talking 20 minutes, 40 minutes on a bad day from the traffic, but it definitely doesn't have that sense there. I think the other thing is that you can see the people that own the businesses. It's so like you'll go into shops and the people that are running those businesses, for the most part, are in that business. They're in that physical location and you buy into those people. These are all the thoughts I'm having and at the end of the season I might have a cohesive way of concluding it all, Jonathan, but I do want to ask because, yeah, it's just an interesting thing, that is the human element.

Jonathan Newell: 1:13:07

You're right, I think you've hit the nail on the head there, john, with having a rapport with the actual business owner. Yes, yeah, we're doing a big push on social media and we know Bex, mutual friend of ours, and she's all very much pro like humanise. Humanise your brand. So the fact that we as humans can socialise and recognise someone, the face of a business, and have an interaction with them. Perhaps it's something that we don't pay attention to, but it's really powerful. Yeah.

John Hawker: 1:13:35

Yeah, all right, we'll finish that point on that I think that's a really good point and I don't know how much of the episode you listened to, but I've got a closing tradition on this podcast okay um, there's another well-known podcast that ends with a guest that's left. Sorry, a question that's left by a previous guest right I'm not going to name the podcast, because it's well, it's well enough for me to do any bloody advertising for it On this podcast. It's my mum. That leaves a question for a guest.

John Hawker: 1:14:00

Okay, my mum has played a massive part in all of my branding for my recruitment agency. When I first started up, I had no budget and it's just funny, so there is some comedic value in it. But let me just check. So she leaves me a voice note and I play it down the phone into the microphone. I don't know what she's going to say, so I can only apologise, jonathan. Go for it. I'm going to play it now. Let's get the volume up. Hello.

Jonathan Newell: 1:14:24

Jonathan. Have you ever thought of starting a new venture or a new business outside of insurance.

John Hawker: 1:14:31

Thank you, it's quite a sensible question for my mum. Her name's Lisa. I do usually apologize for questions. Sometimes they're left field, but lisa that's a?

Jonathan Newell: 1:14:41

that's a great question. Um, yes, I have pondered that, okay, and I've always gravitated to. Probably the most hardest industry to crack is being a restaurateur, right? I think the one thing that lee perhaps lacks is a real, and there's some good eateries. Don't go, no, I'm not going to go down that route. So yeah, a restauranteur I think if I've always been attracted to owning a bar restaurant, I think there's a niche for a private club. Yeah, something like that. That's definitely lacking. Do you remember Black Cat back in the day?

John Hawker: 1:15:14

Yeah, I loved that. Definitely black cat back. Yeah, I just loved it. Yeah, off-grid, off the radar a bit cool it was. So I just you got me a black cat, because that was the first date with that. Me and my partner Sophie went on 12 years ago and I remember the buzzer you had to buzz and actually it felt whether they were really seeing what.

Jonathan Newell: 1:15:30

There was always this thing that since the jeopardy whether you get it or not, yeah, it was always made to fit.

John Hawker: 1:15:35

you were made to feel like they were judging what you were wearing. That's what. That was the thing that was in my head all the time from various friends, and they said, yeah, they'll look at what you're wearing and then they'll decide whether you come in or not, and then you'd buzz it.

Jonathan Newell: 1:15:51

You'd wait like pensive and then you'd go in and it was yeah, because it's the exclusivity that attracts everyone to it. There's no advertising, no signs, yeah it wasn't particularly a glamorous place.

John Hawker: 1:15:58

I mean, when the lights were off, oh yeah, it was too dark to see. I'd been in there when the lights were on and it was just. There was still an allure about it, though, wasn't there something very Lee and very quirky and original about that idea? Yeah, oh, I'd back you 100 to do that, jonathan yeah, something like that restaurateur.

Jonathan Newell: 1:16:17

But I just love business and commerce, okay, generally. Yeah, I think it just fascinates me. Yeah, I like negotiation, trading, that kind of thing. Okay, I just think it's an intro, is there?

John Hawker: 1:16:26

a watch, this space that we can put at the end of that, yeah okay, see what happens. Awesome, jonathan, thank you so much for coming in and being so transparent and having that really honest conversation. I think that's going to inspire a lot of people and also sort of show under the hood of what life as a business owner and entrepreneur is like. So thank you for doing that Really appreciate it.

Jonathan Newell: 1:16:45

Thank you, Jon Cheers Cheers.

John Hawker: 1:16:46

Thank you. Thanks for listening to Jobsworth. If you enjoyed this episode, please feel free to like and subscribe. You can stay connected by following me on LinkedIn for more insights on the world of work behind the scenes, content and updates on upcoming episodes.