From Genoa to Jewellery

In the latest episode of JobsWorth I sit down for a chat with the amazing Clio Sigismondi, the creative powerhouse behind Black and  Sigi. From her roots as an Italian immigrant to her flourishing career in the UK, Clio's story is a testament to the transformative power of dreams and the enduring strength found within family bonds. Our conversation takes you on a journey through contrasting cultural traditions, the rekindling of a lost language, and a career that has navigated unexpected turns with the grace of an Olympian athlete turned jewellery designer. Enjoy.

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Chapters

• 0:00 Transition, Dream, and Resilience
• 9:30 Italian Christmas and School Experience
• 19:35 Career Paths and Parental Guidance
• 27:46 Career, Motherhood, and Entrepreneurial Beginnings
• 32:55 Creativity and Partnership in Business
• 40:21 Balancing Growth and Sustainability
• 47:49 Business Growth and Transition Stories
• 57:22 Navigating Challenges and Growth in Business
• 1:05:56 Balancing Work and Parenthood Success
• 1:11:36 Community Collaboration in Small Business
• 1:15:52 Mum's Closing Question

Transcript

Clio Sigismondi: 0:00

But I've loved listening to the others. The other podcasts yeah, I know a lot of them as well, so it's quite nice.

John Hawker: 0:06

On this season. It's been really lovely that people know the guests, because season one is kind of starting out and I did it really for like a LinkedIn audience, so no one knows them in Lee. No. And it kind of missed out on the demographic around here. But yeah, the minute you start putting out like Charlotte Sayer, yeah.

Clio Sigismondi: 0:29

I know her, I but yeah, the minute you start putting out like charlotte say I know, yeah, everyone knows, and, as you say, like in the nicest possible way, people were nosy people were intrigued and curious about what's been going on, and this is really interesting as well.

John Hawker: 0:34

Yeah, where people started?

Clio Sigismondi: 0:35

yes, I think so usually it's completely opposite to what they've ended up doing jobsworth season two episode From Genoa to Jewellery.

John Hawker: 0:56

Welcome to Episode 9 of Jobsworth Season 2. My guest this time around is Cleo Sigismondi, founder and creative director of Black Siggy, a jewellery design brand based in Lyon Sea. Born in Genoa, italy, cleo and her family moved to the UK when she was six years old, following the death of her dad. She didn't speak English, despite her mum growing up in Essex and quickly found herself in a primary school where she would learn the ropes, or, in this case, the language, as she went. In this episode, we discuss Cleo's transition to life in the UK, her experience of education, her earlier dreams of competing at the Olympics when she was at secondary school and what led her to relearn Italian. On top of completing a degree in management at Reading University. Cleo, like many of the people I've spoken to on this podcast, didn't have a clear idea of the career she wanted when leaving uni. We explore her return to Genoa after graduating, what prompted the move back to the UK, how she found corporate life at a shipping company and the events that would ultimately lead her to found the business she's running today. Cleo is a mum to two young daughters and, as well as discussing how she goes about striking the right balance between life and work. We also cover the importance of being role models for our kids when it comes to how they think about work in the future.

John Hawker: 2:07

I also do my best impression of pretending to know anything about jewellery design. Enjoy that Full disclosure. Once we'd stopped recording, cleo told me that she didn't think her story was that interesting. Now I tried to be impartial but respectfully, I think she's mad. You can make your own mind up. So, without further ado, let me introduce you to the person whose jewellery has rescued me from being giftless on countless occasions Cleo Sigismondi. Right, cleo, we're going to start with the opening question. Yeah.

John Hawker: 2:38

So if you've listened to a few of these already, you'll know it, so it won't come as a surprise. But when you were younger, what did you want to be when you grew up?

Clio Sigismondi: 2:45

well, when I was at senior school, I wanted to be in the olympics. That was my, my first. What I wanted to do, failing that, a PE teacher okay, so what?

John Hawker: 2:53

what? In what capacity did you want to be in the olympics? I'm assuming, not a mascot. You wanted to compete, although that would have been fun.

Clio Sigismondi: 3:00

Um no, I was good at athletics and I was on the right path and, yeah, that's what I wanted to do. Okay, then I went to university and then didn't train.

John Hawker: 3:13

Right. So that's funny because I've got a similar story in that I was quite good at athletics when I can't say it properly, but athletics when I was younger, and I always kind of said if I'd had a slightly more pushy parent then I might have followed that route, but what made you drop out of it?

Clio Sigismondi: 3:31

I mean it's a sad story. My coach got put in prison. That was the first thing. Yeah, I mean I won't go into it, so that kind of it was hard then to self-train and my mum didn't drive so I couldn't get to the South End Athletics Rubble Track. I was going to Canvey, malteside, yeah, and then I just couldn't get to places and I didn't have the right channels.

John Hawker: 3:58

Yeah, understood.

Clio Sigismondi: 4:00

Yeah, I mean that was my initial always said I wanted to be in the Olympics.

John Hawker: 4:03

Yeah, wow, what was your event? Heptathlon, heptathlon, yeah, I mean, that was my initial voice, that I wanted to be in the Olympics.

John Hawker: 4:08

Yeah, wow, what was your event Heptathlon, heptathlon, wow. So a few events. Yeah, it was good, wow, okay.

Clio Sigismondi: 4:12

Jack of all trades. There you go. Yeah, some master of none, yeah, well, that's brilliant.

John Hawker: 4:16

I think that you're the first person I've had on that wanted to be an athlete. So that's the funny anecdote, brilliant, okay. So I start with that question, because sometimes it can add an interesting angle as to what you're doing now, which there isn't much of a parallel that's absolutely what you've ended up doing where did you go to school? Did you grow up in Lee?

Clio Sigismondi: 4:40

yeah, I went to King John, okay, yeah right. So you're born and bred in in no I was born in italy actually okay, I was lived there until I was about six, and then my father passed away and me, my sister, my mom came back to england because my mom's english my dad italian okay, yeah um. So I started infant school not speaking a word of english.

John Hawker: 5:02

At six years old. Yeah, wow, okay so that was fun.

Clio Sigismondi: 5:07

So people still remember me speaking pigeon English at school, so can you imagine how stressful that was. Yeah. But yeah. So then, from six years old we bent Lee and then moved up to Lee.

John Hawker: 5:22

Yeah, okay, king John. Yeah, what was that like? Do you remember much of that? When sort of transitioning into an english-speaking school or leaving italy?

Clio Sigismondi: 5:30

yeah, um, I remember the journey back. Yeah, because I we drove all the way back in my uncle's car yeah um, I mean the trans. We lived at my auntie's house for the first few months until we got a house, and that was, yeah, I mean snippets of it, but all positive, I don't think I think of anything negative.

John Hawker: 5:50

I'm just interested. I'm trying to imagine my son, who's coming up to six, like not speaking the language and going to a different country. I think six is quite a forgiving age.

Clio Sigismondi: 6:01

Yeah, I mean, I remember going into school with a backpack that in Italy all the kids had right okay but in. England it was standout, it was weird that was the only thing that I think people might have laughed at but apart from that, I don't remember I was. It felt quite welcoming. I mean. I've got friends still that I went to infant school, so that's. Yeah, wow, okay, chose you there you go.

John Hawker: 6:25

So I'm kind of ignorant to your background. Yeah. So I'm going to come at this from an angle of not knowing anything about you. So you might have to you know, for people that are listening to this they may know you very well so, but it's strange how it kind of uncovers little, little bits of information or facts that people go oh my God, I've known Cleo for so long, but I didn't know that. Do you still speak the language? Do you still speak Italian?

Clio Sigismondi: 6:47

Yeah, well, it's funny because maybe this is the traumatic part of the move. Okay. When. I first moved here.

Clio Sigismondi: 6:56

then I learned English. I then refused to talk Italian to my mum, who tried to keep it going Right. So then I kind of forgot it. I forgot how to speak. And then I got to about 17, 18, when I was choosing my courses for university, I thought, no, it's a bit sad that it's half of me and I used to speak it. I should be bilingual. So I kind of went back to university and studied it as part of my business course and then I had it in my mind that I wanted to go and live there for a bit. So I went to, I did an Erasmus course.

Clio Sigismondi: 7:30

so I went there for a year right then went back when I finished uni, yeah, and subsequently I married an Italian, so it's all very helpful there you go okay so.

John Hawker: 7:39

So, just going back to what the impetus was to come back to England or move to England, your, it was your dad passing yeah, when you're in that age.

Clio Sigismondi: 7:46

Okay, because my mum's from this area yeah, okay so he passed away and then, yeah, I think she just felt the education would be better and the system's better in England so she moved back and also her family were here and I was gonna say yeah, you got that support network as well, yeah, so that was the initial, I suppose, when my mum was making the decision. Yeah, it would have been a very different upbringing, I think if you stayed in it?

John Hawker: 8:14

yeah, I think so they do things differently yeah, well, it's nice that you've got kind of a foot in both camps in terms of the culture, but it's nice that you at a certain age decided I want, you kind of want to pay. I don't know if it was, if this is the right word, but you paid homage almost to where you've come from, because it's an incredible thing to have parents from, from.

Clio Sigismondi: 8:35

You know both nationalities and it's a big thing in our lives now, so that italian side never goes. It's very apparent in I don't know the way I do things my arms are flinging about like an italian um I don't know, yeah, like what we eat at home and when we go on holiday we're always in italy I've been to italy a few times.

John Hawker: 8:58

I think my main insight into the culture is I've got a couple of friends that lived there for about three years when they were doing a work placement and, um, they were in Rome and I went out to see them, uh, for a new year, and it was just a very. It was just such an eye-opener to see how new year is done, or new year's eve is done in a different place.

Clio Sigismondi: 9:18

Did you find it boring?

John Hawker: 9:19

well I was with a lot of English people so we still got pissed, but it's you know. I think culturally it's just a very different event, isn't it?

Clio Sigismondi: 9:25

and that was why kind of the whole of Christmas actually is completely different right, okay.

John Hawker: 9:30

I felt do you take any snippets of what an Italian Christmas looks like?

Clio Sigismondi: 9:34

and maybe just um. You can pick and choose. My husband chooses certain food elements um but apart from that, um, now I keep Christmas as glitzy as possible, and they don't do glitzy. So I've had an Italian family and friends come over for Christmas and they think it's so theatrical. They love it. But when I've been there, it's been awful. I mean they go to the cinema on Christmas day. But Christmas day is not a thing, it's a bit more understated, awful yeah, I mean they go to the cinema on christmas day, right, okay?

Clio Sigismondi: 10:10

their thing is christmas eve and it's very sit down and meal like a massive meal and there's not as many presents I get the impression, not to say that family's not a thing for for brits culturally but family really underpins everything that they're they're doing.

John Hawker: 10:23

Yeah, definitely, that's my again outside. Yeah, that's what it feels like. So that's a good positive for Brits culturally. But family really underpins everything that they do. Yeah, definitely, that's my again outside of the inn. That's what it feels like.

Clio Sigismondi: 10:28

So, that's a good, positive of the Italian family. They will stick together. You know, dinner times is very, everyone sits down. They have that culture. Yeah so yeah, I think it's more. I wouldn't say it's more important. There's more of an emphasis I I wouldn't say it's more important. There's more of an emphasis.

John Hawker: 10:47

I suppose in Italian culture. Yeah, got you. Okay, it's just really interesting.

John Hawker: 10:49

I'm like I'm as British as they come to be fair. But it's just, it's interesting to hear what parts of your heritage that you take forward with you. It's lovely to know that you know 12 years down the line. I don't know how quickly you picked up the language at six years old, but I would imagine.

Clio Sigismondi: 11:05

Well, I think I did it quite quickly. I suppose I had to. I can't remember the point where I then started speaking.

John Hawker: 11:11

Well, you're just immersed, aren't you? You were literally dropped into the middle of it.

Clio Sigismondi: 11:15

Obviously understood it because my mum used to speak to me in English when I was little, so I knew it.

John Hawker: 11:27

I just didn't speak it very well yes, so how? Hard? Was it learning it again when you went to? Well, was it something like flick to?

Clio Sigismondi: 11:29

switch. Flick to switch because I obviously had it in me. Yeah, I just maybe blocked it out. I don't know if you want to therapize that maybe. I just blocked it out and I just needed to reopen the window.

John Hawker: 11:44

Yeah, or the door Wow.

Clio Sigismondi: 11:46

So yeah, I mean I make mistakes. I have a whole dictionary of Italian words that I've made my own. Oh, really, okay, which is hilarious, but no, it was quite easy. Okay, I found living there easier. Okay. To learn a language, but everyone says that. Yeah, got you. Just being forced to speak.

John Hawker: 12:06

But yeah, it's the immersion stuff, isn't it? Again I think yeah, one of my like again, my friend that moved to rome. She had to speak italian as part of her job and she went for immersion training for a couple of months with an italian family training, that sounds amazing. Yeah, I mean I won't tell, I won't tell you too much about what she does.

John Hawker: 12:24

But she, yeah, she went through this immersion training, what she labeled immersion training and, um yeah, came back she. I think she'd be the only person that said she would. She wasn't fluent in Italian anyway. Okay, everyone, if you watched her speak to Italians, you'd be like, oh my god yeah being in amongst it and only being able to speak Italian is very different from being able to fall back on English when you need it Again outside, looking in it's not my experience of it.

John Hawker: 12:50

So you went to King John. Yes, which is a link. I feel like it's a link. So we know a few people like mutually, which is where we've come to be introduced and you're speaking to me now. What was your experience at King John? Like at secondary school?

Clio Sigismondi: 13:06

I mean, I like school, yeah that's okay to say that. I made some really um great friends. I got on with it. I was, I did the work. I didn't. You know I didn't struggle work-wise. I was sporty, so I got to do a lot of things through school. Yeah. So my time was great. Yeah, okay. Maybe I was a bit of a geek, I don't know.

John Hawker: 13:33

No, look, I think it depends. I don't feel like it's lent one, because I ask a lot of people that question. It's not lent one way or another. Some people have just a mixed bag of experiences at school, don't they?

Clio Sigismondi: 13:44

or another? Some people have just a mixed bag of experiences. Yeah, don't they? But it's fine to say you enjoyed it enough that I I had great friends. I found it all fairly interesting, I did okay and yeah, and enjoyed myself did you.

John Hawker: 13:54

I don't know if the the kind of jock click um existed in english schools but did you feel like? Being sporty, put you in like a a different group. Or did that not exist at King John?

Clio Sigismondi: 14:06

Do you know what? I straddled a few groups. So I had friends from different groups, so maybe I didn't feel it. I think being sporty allowed me to meet different people. Yeah. And hence maybe why I had different friends in different groups. Yeah. And I suppose made you a little bit closer to the teachers because you had that banter with the PE teachers yeah, yeah understood so you'll know you're a bit more known, but I don't know, maybe yeah but I don't think it's as apparent as in america maybe it is now, I don't know, I don't even know if it's as apparent in america.

John Hawker: 14:40

maybe it, maybe it's just I would have said yeah, because I'm thinking my experience again being in the athletics team and the rugby team and basketball and all this stuff.

Clio Sigismondi: 14:51

Yeah.

John Hawker: 14:51

But I think same as you. I would like to think again. Maybe this is just my view and everyone else looking at me thought. I was an arsehole, but you know, I'd like to think that I was able even to label that there were different cliques. I mean, it's you're going to any school. I don't know what it's like now, but they were like and I'm using air quotes for anyone listening to this but they were like the the geeky.

Clio Sigismondi: 15:13

I think it went along the lines of what music you listen to. I think back back in when I went to school, because I I had people who listened to the rock music. Yeah. People who went clubbing. Yeah. You know, rather than the jocks or the people who are into chess I don't know things like that yeah.

John Hawker: 15:35

I mean, I'm trying not to be offensive by saying geeky people, but I'm just taking myself back to school and thinking, yeah, there were the clicks.

Clio Sigismondi: 15:42

Yeah, and they aren't. There were clicks, I think there were. Definitely. I think there's always going to be a but yeah, I think music being like the way to assess that or group people is actually a really nice way to do it yeah what music were you into? Just as an aside, well, very much like the sport I played. I liked it all I don't have to talk to my friends. I can't even name. I can't name the band, know who plays in it, but I know the song and I know I like it Got you yeah.

John Hawker: 16:09

Okay, yeah.

Clio Sigismondi: 16:10

So I listen to all sorts.

John Hawker: 16:11

Eclectic stuff. Okay, yeah, I don't think you have Cool. So what? So good experience by your own admission at school, you enjoyed it. You sort of. Yeah sort of yeah, very sporty academic did well there yeah, I did all right, yeah, all right yeah so? So what then? Was the motivation to go to uni? When did you start thinking? Because did it? Was it reading that you went? I went to reading, yeah, um.

Clio Sigismondi: 16:35

I, I just always wanted to. I think back in the day when we went to school, it was it was pushed to higher education. University style was you went there. Then you've made it and I don't think it's the same these days and I'm glad it's not, because I think half of the people who actually went to university didn't need to. Yes, nowadays, yeah, I'd agree with that, but I quite liked the whole culture of it, idea of it. I wanted to learn more. So, like I say, I like school, so that for me, I always wanted to go yeah, was there any sort of um push from your family at all, or?

Clio Sigismondi: 17:14

no, my mom's pretty chill, she's sort of no, she didn't push me yeah, okay. I mean, once I've got an idea in my head, I kind of tend to do it anyway, so so she just ran with me doing it. But yeah, so I didn't have a pushy mum. Right. She was very supportive of everything I did, but she let me make my own mistakes and let me make my own decisions, which was quite nice.

John Hawker: 17:37

Yeah, understood, so you went on to do, was it business management and Italian.

Clio Sigismondi: 17:42

Yeah, so I kept it very broad.

John Hawker: 17:44

Right.

Clio Sigismondi: 17:45

I didn't really know what I wanted to do apart from being in the Olympics, and at that point I think it had faded, yeah, and that dream kind of died away a little bit at that point, yeah, and because I was sporty. Then I was probably advised PE teaching and I was like, yeah, okay, I could do that.

John Hawker: 18:00

But it wasn't really something I really wanted to do.

Clio Sigismondi: 18:04

So I had an idea that I quite liked the business life, I suppose.

John Hawker: 18:10

What was the inspiration there? I?

Clio Sigismondi: 18:12

don't know, I think you probably just from senior school. You see others suited and booted and I suppose I got that sense and I thought okay, I quite like that idea. Yeah. But really I didn't know. I kept it broad. So I thought if I do business management I'm learning areas, different areas of working business, adding on the Italian because I wanted to speak Italian again. Yeah.

Clio Sigismondi: 18:42

And I got an extra year in Italy which sold it and, yeah, that's why I chose that okay yeah, um, I didn't really know basically when I was choosing it and did you your experience at uni?

John Hawker: 18:57

then how? How was that? Did you feel? Did it become clearer to you why you picked it or ways that you were right? You were potentially going to be able to utilize what you were learning when you went on to do what you did.

Clio Sigismondi: 19:10

I don't know if it did or not. I mean, I suppose I formed foundations of how I'm running the business now. Okay. Or am I naturally okay at doing that? I don't know. It could be a bit of both. Yeah. Did it change my life? Not in an education sense, I don't think yeah. I could have done that, probably working somewhere yeah but it was still fun.

John Hawker: 19:35

It's an interesting, interesting point and I like to bring it up for a couple of reasons. Really, I've got, if you've heard this podcast, I've said this a lot but I've got if you've heard this podcast. I've said this a lot, but I've got young kids.

Clio Sigismondi: 19:46

You've got two daughters, haven't you? Yeah, I've got two, yeah, and how old are they for that? 11 and 7. 11 and 7. Okay.

John Hawker: 19:51

So I guess your 11-year-old is getting to the point now in secondary school, or?

Clio Sigismondi: 19:56

about to start secondary school yeah, she's going in September, so yeah.

John Hawker: 20:06

Yeah, I mean, my oldest is six and he's got a long time until he has to think about that. But I wonder what that world is going to look like for them and what inspiration they're going to see as they get older and whether I'm going to be that person that goes. Oh yeah, have you considered university?

Clio Sigismondi: 20:21

Yeah.

John Hawker: 20:25

I really believe in trying to give my kids that scope to decide themselves and just make sure that you're there to support them whatever they decide. But I've also seen, and maybe I would have benefited from someone giving me a steer in a certain direction, rather than just going John, just do what you want to do, which is what I did and I haven't. I've done all right, but I feel, I feel like maybe a small, a small steer in a in a certain direction.

Clio Sigismondi: 20:45

I might have benefited from that, but yes, you've got to find the balance of being a pushy parent and a cool liberal parent yeah, how'd you do that?

John Hawker: 20:53

but? It's yeah, I think with two young kids and thinking about their future, I I try and disseminate my experience and think about like career, career guidance or career advice. I speak about that a lot as well, yeah.

Clio Sigismondi: 21:07

I heard you speak about that before, for in a podcast. I can't really remember, no one can. So I can't even recall what they told me to be, but probably it was PE teacher, and that's where I've got that memory from yeah, got you. I mean they tried, but I don't think people really know Hence why there's so many people changing up their career later on down the line.

John Hawker: 21:34

That's a really good point as well. At that age especially, you don't need to know what you want to do for the rest of your life.

Clio Sigismondi: 21:40

People are very definite of what they want to do, obviously, if you want to do something very academic like being a lawyer, but you can actually study that later anyway, yeah, doctor, maybe Traditionally yeah. Traditional jobs like that, I suppose.

John Hawker: 21:59

Yeah, I definitely. I don't know if I worry.

John Hawker: 22:03

I do worry I do worry about what my kids are going to do and I worry about.

John Hawker: 22:04

Yeah, like I definitely I don't know if I worry, I do worry, I do worry about what my kids are going to do and I and I and I worry about, yeah, like I said, the inspiration, the guidance they'll get, not just from me, because I think as a parent I want to try and give them as much as I can, but the majority of the time they're at school, they'll be at school now until they, like there's a lot of they're going to pick up things through osmosis, tiktok stars.

Clio Sigismondi: 22:23

that's what they want, to be right? Yes, no, I think there's actually quite a lot of inspiration, just in different ways. Yeah. They're getting their inspiration from social media, or I mean they're just the people around them are doing more things. We're moving away from traditional jobs.

Clio Sigismondi: 22:47

You know, talking about being a PA up in London who was at Charlotte, yeah, yeah, that was probably a lot of what people did if they didn't have. They didn't have an idea of what they were doing. Actually. Now people are thinking outside the box and what are their interests, and turning that into a business yeah, but. I think it is changing also.

John Hawker: 23:02

You've got technology, yeah throw that into the mix. A big part of of that is AI that I've been discussing a lot in what I do for a living too, and how that's going to impact what jobs even look like as we move forward too. It's all scary and amazing in equal measure, but it is shit scary.

Clio Sigismondi: 23:21

They'll find a way.

Clio Sigismondi: 23:21

Yeah, they will Either that, or the human race will. Well, exactly, it's they'll find a way.

Clio Sigismondi: 23:25

Yeah, they will. Either that or the human race will. Well, exactly it's gonna go it's gonna go one way or the other, isn't it for sure?

John Hawker: 23:28

so you left university. Yeah, give me a kind of a bridged version of your, of your career when you left. So did you have a? You've done four years for you. Because you had your year in Italy as well. You've done four years of study yeah you've left with a degree I'd assume. I don't know if you did just um no I.

Clio Sigismondi: 23:49

I went straight to live in italy because I had that in my, my mind and I was like, no, I'm gonna go did you go solo?

John Hawker: 23:56

were you with someone at the time?

Clio Sigismondi: 23:57

no, I went on my own um um, I went back to the general where I'm from. So I've got family, I've got cousins there and in general their main industry is shipping. Okay. And they're very suave. You know, you think of Booted going up to London. The Italians are that on speed.

Clio Sigismondi: 24:19

Right, yeah, the style I can imagine is slightly different, so I had that and I was like, oh, oh, yeah, I'm going to work in shipping. I don't know why. I just liked the idea of it. Obviously, style over substance, right. That's what I went there to do, and I did well.

Clio Sigismondi: 24:37

First of all, I got a job working for a company that had the license for Lamborghini, so that was quite interesting. And that took me to Hong Kong to the trade shows for a company that had the license for Lamborghini, so that was quite interesting. And that took me to Hong Kong to the trade shows. I had my first experience at trade shows and that was fun. The boss was a tyrant. It was a very small company, so I think that set me up to knowing how to speak to an Italian boss who was just always an arsehole. And then, from there, I got a job in a shipping company. I sent my CV to I don't know, it must have been about 300 different companies in the area and just waited for one to come back, and one didn't, luckily. And it was yeah for a shipping company.

John Hawker: 25:26

Okay, so how long were you out in Italy before?

Clio Sigismondi: 25:29

I think about two and a half years, three years.

John Hawker: 25:31

Maybe you hadn't forgotten how to speak English by that point a little bit. I used to come back and forget words but, yeah.

Clio Sigismondi: 25:40

So then after a certain point I was trying to move into a flat with a friend and it all just went. It fell through and I thought, oh my God, all my friends are actually earning a bit of money now living on their own. Some are buying houses and I'm still here living with my cousin, living paycheck to paycheck. It was a bit like that and I thought, oh, it's lovely living here, but no, it's not what it's all cracked up to be. So I just left.

Clio Sigismondi: 26:07

I bought a car so obviously that was probably half the problem Brand new one with no money, and I just drove it, packed all my belongings and drove back home from Italy. Wow. And then I had been talking to a friend who was also in shipping a freight forwarder. Their counterpart in England said he's looking for someone who works with the Italian market, so you'd be perfect. So I got the job straight away, again still in shipping freight forwarding on the other side, and I got a job here doing that.

John Hawker: 26:38

Where was that? Was that in London?

Clio Sigismondi: 26:40

No, that was a very small company as well. That was in Bishop's Stortford. So I was driving to Bishop's Stortford every day. That's where I met my husband. He was a customer. I'd have to organise his containers.

John Hawker: 26:50

That's what it was basically that's romantic, I know lovely, wasn't it?

Clio Sigismondi: 26:54

So I'd be speaking to him on the phone all the time and, yeah, just a bit flirty.

John Hawker: 26:58

I suppose Connected from there, so culturally. Then what did you notice a big difference, having worked in Italy for two and a half years and then coming back and working with, with UK I mean you, you were speaking to you, who would then be your husband, who was Italian anyway.

Clio Sigismondi: 27:14

So, like different, different stakeholders, the thing is when I from the Italian company to the English one, it was literally a whole big company to them working just me and my boss right, okay so my first step into English uh, work, work, working in England was very different in itself. But from there I went um. I went to the headquarters of the company I was working for in Italy. So I've got a job after a few years there. So when I worked for K-Line in London that was back into a bit of a corporate environment.

Clio Sigismondi: 27:51

More it's a bigger, more, I would say, office life.

John Hawker: 27:55

So, that was fun. So these are global, or at least international, organisations that you're working for anyway, yeah it's a Japanese company. Okay, right, got you. Yeah, so you've got a mix of because because, again, I've placed with japanese companies, so culturally they're interesting.

Clio Sigismondi: 28:11

Anyway, that was very interesting. Yeah, because they're a bit sexist, so there wasn't very many female managers and you could only what I could see. There was one that I knew that had got to a semi-managerial role, um, and maybe another one from another department, but that was it out of the whole, this whole big company, and they would bring in their Japanese counterparts to be the bigger bosses. So, there's just no movement and it was very boring work. I didn't enjoy the work. Right, okay, it was boring.

Clio Sigismondi: 28:37

I thought it would be more interesting negotiating rates speaking to all the European companies because we offices, but it wasn't. It was boring as hell. And then I got pregnant and that was my opportunity to to never go back.

John Hawker: 28:51

To never go back. And was that? Was that a conscious thing at the time? Did you know that when it, when it came to to having your first daughter, did you know? Was it intentional that?

Clio Sigismondi: 29:01

you weren't going to go back to work. I wasn't definite in either camp so they offered me a very non-flexible work-life balance. So, right, I just thought to myself have, and people do it, and I actually think it's amazing what they do, because I wouldn't have been able to do it to sort out the kids, drop them off, then get up to London work a whole day and come back. It's incredible.

Clio Sigismondi: 29:27

You know, if you do it, that's wonderful, and I just didn't love it enough to warrant it, and I was fortunate enough to not have to. So, that was very important and I'm very grateful to have that set up.

John Hawker: 29:41

I think it's important to highlight that as well isn't it. Not everyone's going to be in a position to be able to do that, but if you can and you can make that decision based on, why am I going?

Clio Sigismondi: 29:53

to sacrifice even time being there with my daughter. Well, if you wait up, you'd be paying someone to do it, so it is a job, obviously. I talk to every parent who stays at home. But that was our decision, that we made.

John Hawker: 30:06

And I, every month, parent who stays at home. But, um, that was our decision that we made and I'm glad I did. Yeah, yeah, so that was 11 years ago. Give or take.

Clio Sigismondi: 30:11

yeah, so in that time, obviously, when you're pregnant, I don't know if other women do this, but I was like I'm gonna learn spanish, I'm gonna start my own, I'm gonna learn to sew and all that jazz, and at the time my sister was making these rings. Yeah.

Clio Sigismondi: 30:28

She had been, and she was just doing it as a fun project, and I was like, oh, we can sell this. I'd bought a ring, after living in Italy, which was very similar to what she had done and I paid quite a bit of money for it. So I was like, well, sell it, sell it on.

Clio Sigismondi: 30:41

Etsy. So my sister is the opposite to how I am in character. I'm a bit bolshie, right, do it as soon as I thought it. Yeah, so she's quieter, takes her time a bit manana manana. So I was like I'll set it all up for you. I'll set it all up on Etsy. And she was like yeah, but I can't make every single one the same. And I was like that's the beauty of these rings that you're making Anyway. So together we kind of did that and I was pushing it, and then I was buying the rings off her to make her believe in herself a little bit.

John Hawker: 31:16

Right, did she know you were doing that? You didn't do that discreetly. No, no, no, you didn't. I no, no, no, you did it. I didn't know if you did it undercover or what.

Clio Sigismondi: 31:24

No, because I believed in what she was making, yeah. So, yeah, that went on for a bit, and then that was slightly before, actually, I was pregnant. And then, yeah, whilst I was on maternity leave, I said, oh well, now I've got the time, why don't we think about doing it a little bit more seriously? I'll come on and we'll start making you know other things, not just rings. We'll make it a little business.

John Hawker: 31:53

So then that's kind of the startings of black and sigi nice. Thank you for pronouncing it as well, because I've asked a million people on how to pronounce it.

Clio Sigismondi: 31:58

Everyone says sigi, but it's a soft g. Yeah, yeah, I've had that the whole of my life, so so your, your surname is your.

John Hawker: 32:04

Your surname is Sigismondi. Yeah okay, right because that was the other question I was going to ask because I'm going to have to say that in intro at some point. But okay, thank you for clarifying that. So you, so your sister, was making the making the rings to start off with, just as a. It wasn't because I was wondering. I've got them written on my notes like side hustle, but it doesn't sound like that.

Clio Sigismondi: 32:26

It sounds like just a creative outlet. No, it wasn't a side hustle. She went to art college in. Southend and she'd done a project and there was some scrap wire, so literally it was nothing to do with the project. She just had created it from these scraps right, yeah that she'd collected. So yeah, it was for herself yeah, it was something pretty that she's made yeah um, and that's how literally she started. It wasn't any formal training yeah it just was born out of, and that's brilliant.

John Hawker: 32:55

So do you think, without your input, without your um persuasion, let's say, to start growing? That? Or at least your time. It sounds like a timing thing as well your time freeing up enough to start going yeah, let's start building this into something. Would it have happened, do you think, or in the way that it has?

Clio Sigismondi: 33:13

well, maybe might have happened with maybe. I think it's worked because we've come together right with the strengths that we both had so maybe individually it wouldn't have started as quickly, or maybe wouldn't never have started, maybe she would never have had time on her own, or the confidence maybe, um, but maybe she would have. I don't know. I don't want to say she wouldn't have, but I think it's worked it's. It's become what it has because of both of our inputs.

John Hawker: 33:43

Maybe understood yeah, I mean I would agree with that. I just it's just interesting because again, take an example of someone like my brother who's an artist. I don't know if you've listened to his episode. But he's very successful, but not I mean he's he's commercially as an artist, and it tends to be once you, once you're dead, usually you make a lot of money, but he's.

John Hawker: 34:02

He's doing all right, so you know he's making a living, and has been doing it for for a good amount of time now, as my mum has as well, but I wouldn't necessarily.

John Hawker: 34:09

It's no offense, luke, if you're listening to this, but it's not, I wouldn't say he's the most commercially savvy person right and I do think, if you're going to take, you can make the most beautiful jewelry in this case, or draw the most beautiful drawings, but there needs to be an element of that business acumen coming in If you're going to scale it, and that's where it seems like that came together at the right time.

Clio Sigismondi: 34:31

Yeah, and I think that's why it worked so well. I remember my mum going to a clairvoyant years ago, like 25 years ago. And she'd said very clearly at one point oh, they will work together. I suppose I had that story in my head as well, and yeah, I quite like that and maybe I made that happen because of that, but I don't think it did. I think it naturally came together and um yeah yeah, there's an element of.

John Hawker: 34:57

I don't know if you believe in in the word fate, but it seems like there's an element of fate that kind of led you to that point. Yeah, it time, yeah, and it's really nice, but what's the age gap between you both?

Clio Sigismondi: 35:07

Six years, six years.

John Hawker: 35:08

Okay, yeah, I think it's just nice doing a joint venture with your sibling as well.

Clio Sigismondi: 35:12

It was fun, yeah, and also, you can be really candid with your sister or your sibling, can't you? Whereas with another colleague if you were sharing a business you've going to talk, I agree with that I definitely think.

John Hawker: 35:28

With the dynamic I've got with my brother, we're only 18 months apart yeah but we're like best mates, like we're very, very fortunate, I would argue some people would hear that and think there's no way that I could be super honest, you know, with, with, my sibling.

Clio Sigismondi: 35:40

Yeah, but I found that with our relationship we I mean she'll get annoyed with me all the time. Yeah.

John Hawker: 35:47

But I can also tell her to shut up and we might not talk to each other for five minutes and be in a huff and then, yeah, but it's family, yeah, it's like normal, yeah, exactly.

Clio Sigismondi: 35:56

So, it's, it's good. Yeah, so we did that on the kitchen table every Monday every Monday, I remember, because I had the baby. Then, after we'd sort of developed and we spoke about it for ages, um and my mum would look after um, my firstborn, and then I'd say right on Monday morning, that's what we're gonna do, I'm gonna come round to yours, and it was just be on the kitchen table and then it just grew from there and then it became Monday and Wednesday.

Clio Sigismondi: 36:18

Um, then they went to to you know, play school and we had like a space in the back garden. Yeah, we turned that into the office. Wow, the studio, not office.

John Hawker: 36:29

Yeah, well, do you know what? Yeah, my brother kills me when I used to call his studio, an office and he absolutely hated it, it's not, it's a creative space yeah, that's it um.

Clio Sigismondi: 36:40

So yeah, that's how it started growing yeah from the early stages of Black and Seji.

John Hawker: 36:44

Okay, Are you a creative person? I would say very much now obviously yeah, no.

Clio Sigismondi: 36:50

Historically I think I I was. I just hadn't tapped into my creative side earlier on because I was more down going down the corporate way in my mind, I don't know. Yeah, I, I, I think I am. Yeah, I hope.

John Hawker: 37:06

I am no well, I definitely say the proof is in the pudding with. With now what you're doing, I think I've got more creative the older I've got. Right.

Clio Sigismondi: 37:13

But maybe that's because I've opened it up a bit more.

John Hawker: 37:23

Yeah, right, but maybe that's because I've opened it up a bit more. And yeah, what do you?

Clio Sigismondi: 37:24

put that. What do you put that down to? Just just developing it and giving it time to breathe, like actually the creation, yeah, maybe, yeah, and having the time to get your style going. I think people don't develop that until later.

John Hawker: 37:31

Yeah, maybe I spoke to someone in the first um season and she was saying that she doesn't believe that there's kind of like you either are or aren't creative.

Clio Sigismondi: 37:42

Like the thing.

John Hawker: 37:42

A big part of it is the process. Like whatever you take from the creation of something, you labeling someone as creative or not is not the best way to do it. I mean, I still fall into that trap because I've just done it, but I think there is some truth in that. The more, the more you create the more you can explore, and it's all subjective, isn't it as well, like some people's styles have completely different understand when you yeah, everyone's creative in their own way.

Clio Sigismondi: 38:11

Yeah, I remember someone saying to me I I had thought I wanted to be an interior designer, but I think every person wants to be an interior designer.

Clio Sigismondi: 38:17

But I think every person wants to be an interior designer at some point, but I really oh, so obviously that was me tapping into some creativity at university right and then I had a good friend from school who became like it was an art in what the creative time right, okay they turned around and um, I was like, oh, you'll never be in it, you, it's just not your vibe and I thought oh, you're such an arsehole yeah I love them, like I still talk to them today, but the the point was they'd done what you had said, pigeonholed you as not creative because for whatever reason. They thought not, but actually my business is more creative than yours now.

John Hawker: 39:00

So fuck you, there you go. I like that, I like that.

John Hawker: 39:08

Yeah, I do think the whole label thing could be quite prohibitive, because if you're labelled as not creative, you can just start to think of yourself. That way I've done it. I'm in a family of two incredibly successful artists and I work in recruitment and I go. I'm not a creative person but yeah, exactly. I've gone against the kind of grain with this, this creative career, that that you know we're a very small family anyway, but like the two people in my life followed that and have been really successful, but there are elements of what I do that allow that creativity to come out.

Clio Sigismondi: 39:37

This is creative what you're doing, yeah. I think so, because you don't put pen to paper doesn't mean it's not creative. Well, this is it. Yeah, you're lego building. Thank you so much for pointing that out.

John Hawker: 39:48

If only we could see the lego. But yeah, I've come to terms now with the fact that I enjoy the creative process. Yeah. So maybe we're all creative, let's just broad brush it.

Clio Sigismondi: 39:58

Everyone's creative. It's just whether you invest a bit of time Exactly.

John Hawker: 40:01

In doing that.

Clio Sigismondi: 40:02

And you can have different strengths. You can be creative in your strategies. Yes, that's a really good point yeah. And I think that's where I'm most creative, like in the ideas. I've got a million ideas, yeah is yeah, and that's my forte.

John Hawker: 40:15

I'm going to talk to you about a couple of those and how they've how they've evolved and what you see for Black and CJ moving forward too. Um, but I think I think you're right and I think actually that'd be nice for people to hear, because I do think there's a lot of um. I do a lot of employee value proposition work, which might not mean anything to anyone listening at this point, but basically how the companies create cultures where people feel like they're doing meaningful work is one element of that yeah and creativity, being able to create something yeah which, again, your mind might go to.

John Hawker: 40:47

You know, creating something artistic, but actually being creative in in the way you're thinking, or the way you're managing something or the way you're carrying a piece of work out is that's creative.

Clio Sigismondi: 40:57

Yes, yeah, and something is sometimes even more important than well as in not a more important, as important as the end product that you're creating. Maybe if it is a product that you're creating, without that you would never have got the end anyway. Yeah, that's a really good point okay, so you've.

John Hawker: 41:17

So it started to grow kitchen table.

Clio Sigismondi: 41:20

Yeah, moved into the studio studio space, not the office space, studio space, garden shed, garden shed. Yeah, I started working at garden shed a long time ago.

John Hawker: 41:29

Um so when did you decide? Was there a kind of light bulb moment when you thought, fucking hell I, we can make this into an adventure.

Clio Sigismondi: 41:40

Well, I remember when we had first got together, me and my sister, and we're saying, yeah, we're going to do it, and we were fortunate enough to have a personal loan from a family member, so we didn't have to go to a bank.

Clio Sigismondi: 41:56

So, we're like we've, we got this, let's get a website and get it all set up. And because I was already starting to be creative in my thinking, I was thinking marketing. So I was like, right, we can approach all the boutiques. This was right. At the beginning. We'd created a little collection, so let's borrow their clothes. We do a photo shoot and, you know, get some images. And we went into the shop that's actually no longer there, but it was really high end. It was lush, um, and said, oh, can we borrow? Borrow some clothes, we'll tag you in. You know that kind of discussion. And I hadn't even thought about wholesale at that point. And she said, oh, well, well what, I'd like to stock some of your, your pieces, and that's what's like. Oh, and that is the moment where I thought, wow, if this kind of shop likes what we're making it's not just an artisan handmade piece, which some people might have seen it as that.

Clio Sigismondi: 42:52

There was a fashiony person thinking it was quite cool, right so that was my moment.

John Hawker: 42:57

When we came out, we're like, right, okay, we're gonna have to really research all the sort of pricing elements of it and that's when I thought okay yeah, this could, this could be something cool yeah yeah, is it all still again ignorance from from this? So I don't know. I'm just gonna ask questions stupid questions is it all still hand handmade by you?

Clio Sigismondi: 43:19

yes, so that was one of our um main focuses. We have grown quite a lot and we could send it out to India, like there have been other companies yeah, and to make it um cheaper, but that would take away from actually what we are as our usp, which is handmade in england, yes, and in limited amounts, so we can only reach to a certain point. So I don't expect black and said you to be a multi-million pound company right it's gonna.

Clio Sigismondi: 43:50

It is, the main focus is the community and what we have created. So you know, if I can employ three people, that's already giving them a job. Um, if I can pay myself, great if and then if we're still selling it and we we'll only be able to make to a certain point, in the space that we have yeah, um, and that's okay yeah, as long as we're still having fun making some money.

Clio Sigismondi: 44:12

Yeah do you know what I mean? So that's kind of the focus on our company.

Clio Sigismondi: 44:16

So, yeah, we could have sent it out, but then it wouldn't be what it is.

John Hawker: 44:22

So the company was formed. I sound like I know this, but I only know through. Linkedin. Maybe I don't even know it. But, the company was formed in 2014? Yeah, so you're 10 years down the line.

Clio Sigismondi: 44:33

Yeah.

John Hawker: 44:34

From having those conversations going into shops. Was there a part of you that, with your business head on? Yeah, I love the fact that the usp is what it is, yeah, but is there ever part of you that had to kind of just remind yourself that? I guess the point I'm trying to make is how did you define like what enough looks like? It's a question I've asked a few people because you get to the point, because there are big jewelry brands that have gone into that. You know they are multi-million uh pound companies, obviously, and then some did you have?

John Hawker: 45:02

did you ever get excited to think that we could grow it and then have to remind yourself no, we need to keep this what it is.

Clio Sigismondi: 45:08

I've always said to myself. After then doing trade shows, I got an idea of the target shops that we were going for. So John Lewis would be too much. They wouldn't go for our product anyway. It is too artisan and that would be too much for us to produce at the expectations that they want. But you know, I've said to myself no, I want to be stocked in the big museums, the V&A those kind of London museums, and then we can take it international once we've hit those main ones in London, or maybe not.

Clio Sigismondi: 45:40

Maybe that's enough and we got there. Wow so and was it enough.

John Hawker: 45:44

I mean. I'm still there, yeah.

Clio Sigismondi: 45:45

And it is enough. Yeah, sometimes we can't make as quickly as they need it, so yeah, we're there. Yeah. And the next stage, I don't know.

John Hawker: 45:55

Then I'd have to get bigger space take over Leon C everyone get making wire wrap jewellery, but this is it because if the demand is there, it gets to.

John Hawker: 46:04

And again I'm asking from my own it's completely self-serving why I'm asking this question because you get to a point where you're growing and I always set up the business was a lifestyle business and I was only able to grow to a point that I could service the amount of clients I could do comfortably while still being present as a dad, as a partner, all these, all these things and then you get to the point where you have to start saying no or turning work away and it's a real alien concept, especially when you've gone through that growth yeah phase to get to a point where you can pay the bills yeah and then you're at a point where you have to say no, and I just wonder because I'm at that precipice now?

John Hawker: 46:41

I've just made my first hire, which I promised I'd never ever do so and then then now people are starting to say well, you started one like why don't you hire someone? Else because I need to keep reminding myself why I started out in the first place I guess that's why I'm asking the question.

Clio Sigismondi: 46:55

I haven't had to say no yet, okay I suppose I've got more specific in when people ask me to make something bespoke, because some people want tiffany's and yeah we don't do that, so I've learned to say no there.

John Hawker: 47:09

But in terms of the bigger accounts, I haven't said no yet right, okay, yeah, it just sounds like you're managing it better, to be fair, maybe I should have studied when we got enough the bigger accounts, and it was getting to that point where we couldn't fulfil the orders.

Clio Sigismondi: 47:28

I stopped going to the trade shows, so I sort of took my foot off the pedal.

John Hawker: 47:32

You got to kind of turn the tap off at some point, haven't you?

Clio Sigismondi: 47:34

Because going there is keeping that flow coming in, that flow, going flow, and I wouldn't have been able to have new stockists on board at the rate the trade shows would bring them in. Yeah, so now, so we've got those. That's eventually going to end, because it always does. The life maybe isn't, I don't know.

Clio Sigismondi: 47:51

Uh, if I could have them forever and then have choice, smaller boutiques, then in terms of the wholesale side, then I'd be covered for life, like, that would be perfect yeah um, but we're lucky because and I think I maybe that comes from me studying business as well we had a very good mix right from the start of, with wholesale and direct customer bases. So, um, we have the best of both worlds. So where maybe one falls short, we have the direct sales yeah, understood, okay, yeah so it's important to have both of those kind of pillars.

John Hawker: 48:27

Yeah, yeah, now we've got one falls over the other, one is propping it up where there was no stockists yeah buying in.

Clio Sigismondi: 48:35

We had a loyal customer base that was still buying jewellery, believe it or not, even when they were staying in on a Friday night.

John Hawker: 48:42

They might have wanted a bit more money to spend on jewellery I guess.

Clio Sigismondi: 48:45

I think that's what happened. Yeah, so I haven't had to say no.

Clio Sigismondi: 48:49

I'll circle back to that question. Luckily. But we're there now so I just sort of take my foot off because I am still managing to with kids.

John Hawker: 48:58

So I've grown the business alongside that yeah, and that sounds like that growth happened, as you said, like you were having those conversations. Maybe it's maybe slightly before falling pregnant yeah but then really starting to invest more time because of of yeah, I'm not going to say the time that you had, because as a parent, you very rarely have time but, prioritizing yeah. Cg and what you were doing at the same time as.

Clio Sigismondi: 49:22

I mean, I was working every single night till midnight when they were newborn, so on the computer, which that was probably a bit too much, but you know it?

John Hawker: 49:31

did it feel like it at the time, or is that just in retrospect?

Clio Sigismondi: 49:34

I wanted to do it yeah, like I wanted to get it done.

John Hawker: 49:37

It's not someone cracking the whip. It's your own, it's my own motivation to do it. Yeah, so that was yeah, I was working it around because one of the questions asked for parents usually is like how the how becoming a parent changes your relationship with work. Because it changed, like part of the reason I'm doing this podcast is because it completely changed my relationship with work. But it seems like that horrible cliche. But it seems like that new chapter for you professionally happened around the same time that your first baby came along too.

Clio Sigismondi: 50:09

I had the space to be able to do it.

John Hawker: 50:11

I think that's the difference. Yeah.

Clio Sigismondi: 50:14

I wouldn't say my jobs before Black and Siji were career choice career, because I wasn't. I don't think, I didn't feel like it was taking me anywhere, I was work, I was working from just to pay my rent yeah, understood, okay, I think so going into. I didn't have any passion in shipping okay, yeah apart from that initial seeing an Italian looking good, there you go, yeah wanting to go down that route.

John Hawker: 50:40

But look, I think at that at that age that you were making those decisions as well, that very fickle, oh I was gonna say fickle, you know you can be. I started in personal training at 18 because I was like superficial, like going to the gym, and I just thought, oh, that I can make some money doing that. Like I didn't really think of it as a career. I never thought I'd be doing it for seven years which I was and you just fall into jobs, don't you?

Clio Sigismondi: 51:03

Yes.

John Hawker: 51:04

And I do going back to the kind of career guidance thing, I feel like back then there was an expectation, whether it manifested itself or not, but an expectation to know what you wanted to do for the rest of your life, at 18 years old, to know what you wanted to do for the rest of your life at 18 years old. And it's not true, it's madness. Not everyone knows yeah.

Clio Sigismondi: 51:20

Majority of people don't know.

John Hawker: 51:22

I would say that's a fair comment. Yeah. And it's definitely the minority that will go into, like college, let's say, my brother being one of them, and I keep referencing him, but he always sticks out in my mind as the person that just had it down what he wanted to do very early on.

Clio Sigismondi: 51:42

Well, that's wonderful. That great for him. I just don't think it's it's not commonplace for that to happen no, I don't think so either.

John Hawker: 51:46

I agree. So you're 10 years on with a business, your sister athena, that you started it with.

Clio Sigismondi: 51:49

I've got to have to. It's a tainer because she's gonna oh god, I'm so sorry, but you said it right, but the italians say atena rather than Atena, and then that's how she pronounced it. Obviously we call her Teenie. Okay, teenie.

John Hawker: 52:02

Teenie. I don't know if I can say it, Teenie. I apologise for getting your name wrong, but so you were doing it with Atena. Yeah, now I'm completely thrown.

Clio Sigismondi: 52:22

She's no longer involved hands-on in the, in the crew, no, but she's always dipping in and out like, yeah, she'll come on the, the fun trips, social events, social events, basically. So she's still the honorary member. No, she, she stepped away.

John Hawker: 52:27

Um, I can't remember now, about five years ago I suppose, um how did that come about, if you don't mind me asking, and how, how was that kind of? Yeah, what was the I? When I say fallout, I don't mean a negative in a negative way. Yeah, we didn't have an argument about it.

Clio Sigismondi: 52:41

Um, she was having to work full time as well, and she works in hospitality, so already they're quite long hours so on her days off she would be doing black and sigi and I think at one point it all got too much right and we weren't at a point where we could match her wage right that she was getting um.

Clio Sigismondi: 53:03

So she had to make the decision on that side and I think after a while she sort of lost a bit of love for it okay um, whereas she could see that I was really enthusiastic about it, she hadn't the same enthusiasm, so she kind of just said yeah, your graphs were going like you're going up a trajectory. Yeah, she said at one point, I was so obsessed with it. That's all I would talk to her about it, about. So, obviously that's my bad, but yeah. So she stepped away, but it wasn't for any hard feelings, yeah.

John Hawker: 53:35

So when I say fallout, I didn't mean you know what was the aftermath of her stepping away, but it sounds like in her mind and I don't want to speak for you, tini, but it sounds like she'd come to that conclusion that maybe that was I think it was like a natural thing as well.

Clio Sigismondi: 53:54

Where she was working more, she got promoted as well. At that point she couldn't put the same hours in. Yeah. So I was taking more on.

John Hawker: 54:04

So it was a lot of it had transferred over anyway yeah, that transition had started to happen organically and yeah, and I think that's what like that's how it happened and she sort of just said I can't, I can't do, I can't work every single day yeah, hospitality is bloody brutal as well, isn't it? Is she still? Is she still working?

Clio Sigismondi: 54:22

she's got the top of her game so that's good, so she's got a little bit more flexibility on her life work-life balance yeah I've said to her well, now you've got a long time, you can come work yeah, yeah, now she's, is there?

Clio Sigismondi: 54:33

no, no chance of that happening just yet she helps every now and again at the times where we have been going back, you know, had so many orders that we couldn't fulfill. Right, I have chucked things her way and said I need help help on that, but I have a team as well who are very good.

John Hawker: 54:51

So with the creative stuff, then I'm just thinking that Genesis was a tainer. And then you've got and you're moving forward, and now you are, you've taken the baton and moving forward that creativity to just it's just an interesting dynamic shift. I think I think it's I an, it's just an interesting dynamic shift. I think I think it's um, I think it's great and I think maybe if you'd asked yourself when you were going in shipping, is this where you find yourself down the line?

Clio Sigismondi: 55:15

brilliant, yeah, this sort of came out of nowhere.

John Hawker: 55:19

It was like it's an organic development from that one ring she, she'd made yeah and that's where my obvious cogs went wild and not not having ever seen like one of the original earlier pieces of other shit that's so shit see we've got a couple knocking around and really even now, when I see people wearing older items, I look at them and go and.

Clio Sigismondi: 55:44

Often, if I know you, I will say let me really redo that one for you. Well, I guess every again, again.

John Hawker: 55:51

It's not my judgment. I'm just trying to sort of put myself in your position. If you've got every single item that someone's wearing, they're saying, oh, this is where I got it from. It's a bit of advertising, isn't it? For you? A bit of marketing and you kind of want it to reflect well, you in the best way, yeah there must also be a part of you that's proud of, like those earlier iterations, oh, absolutely.

Clio Sigismondi: 56:10

When I say they're shit, then they're not. They're wonderful and very creative designs. But where we've developed in how we make things, yeah, um, we've learned new techniques, we've got better equipment, better materials um, that's what I mean yeah, you iterate and innovate over over the years, don't you become? More innovative in the studio, but um yeah.

John Hawker: 56:32

I know it's just. I think I've made, I think we've made the point. It was just that that kind of switching of your sister's start starting as the, as the catalyst behind it and then you taking it on.

Clio Sigismondi: 56:41

She is in the story, she is embedded in the story of Black and Siji.

John Hawker: 56:45

And that's a really lovely thing, as well isn't it? Because I feel like that connection to where you started from again is part of your USP, isn't?

Clio Sigismondi: 56:53

it Absolutely yeah.

John Hawker: 56:54

Where did the name come from?

Clio Sigismondi: 56:56

I get the Siji bit yeah so they used to call my dad Siji as a nickname because of his surname, and he had a very long first name as well. Right. So that was his nickname, and he had a very long first name as well, so that was his nickname and my mum's surname was Black. Oh wow, so it was like you know, their daughters are Black and Silly. I like that.

John Hawker: 57:14

I think that's lovely Looking back at the last decade what are some of the biggest challenges you've had running the business. Can you think, have you been very fortunate in 10 years and not had any?

Clio Sigismondi: 57:28

Or what are the biggest ones? I mean, um, there's different from different areas. Like you've got the boring side, which is like cash flow. Sometimes we struggle with that, but I've, I've had to put a lot of my own personal money in, and but you know that's the boring stuff, but I think that happens in every small bit.

John Hawker: 57:45

It's important to say yeah, to highlight, because if anyone's sat there thinking and I think some people have this very kind of glorified, sexy view of what it's- like to run your own business.

Clio Sigismondi: 57:53

Cash flow is a bitch it's a horrible mistress that you've got to keep covering that a lot um but, um, you know, I'm getting it back now, which is quite nice. Um, I mean, at one point, uh, our wire supplier turned around to me. We just got, just come back off from the trade show, so I was putting in a wire order and he said, oh, we're stopping, stopping all the gold, um wire. And I was like, what would you mean? Like I need, I need this amount now. Um, and he's like oh, sorry, we've only got this size because we use different sizes. So there was a moment where I thought, shit, I'm gonna have to go back to 17 new stockists and say sorry can't make anything or can only make a certain amount.

Clio Sigismondi: 58:37

So that was a stressful but I eventually found an alternative, found a new, new supplier which actually becomes more expensive because and time consuming, especially when you're on a time you know you need to make certain amounts yeah for the shops, but we, yeah, so that was quite tough, but I find that happens regularly, once a year, something like that, so you just have to deal with it does the, I guess, the impact of those parts of the supply chain and how you react to that.

John Hawker: 59:06

If you know it's happened once, you just learn, don't you just? Yeah, it's still a pain in the ass, and you know what worst case scenario.

Clio Sigismondi: 59:11

I said well, if I only offer silver? Yeah for a bit, until I. Yeah, you just gotta be chill about it. Yeah, that's part of the story, isn't?

John Hawker: 59:19

it as well of like and what I love. If you, if you can lean on that in an authentic way and be transparent about it yeah well, it kind of it builds into that background. If you make everything yourself, you make everything in the. Uk. Not everything's going to run perfectly all the time, exactly, and still pressure yeah, I am stressed.

Clio Sigismondi: 59:39

We always say, like my mind, it's like popcorn, it's popping off. Every every Monday morning I will be saying 10 different things in the space of 10 minutes. So if you work in the studio, you have to sort of get my vibe, because I will be talking about something and then, in the same sentence, be something else.

John Hawker: 59:55

I can empathise with that completely.

Clio Sigismondi: 59:57

But yeah, I mean, those are the kind of levels I can't think of. I've been quite fortunate. Okay. I mean having to just learn it. But again, but again, once I put my mind to things, I will just research it and then and I'm quite relaxed, I feel maybe and that might and that might. My sister won't say that she'll be listening to this again. No, you're not.

John Hawker: 1:00:17

We'll have to have her on next as well but it's um yeah, that feeling relaxed, or maybe that ability to be calm under pressure as in as in maybe not get as stressed as others. It's probably one of the contributors. I always think there's a solution there's always a solution to something you don't again.

Clio Sigismondi: 1:00:34

It probably comes to ability to say no like the solution could be you just don't offer it, whereas once upon a time I would have been bending backwards because it wasn't available. But actually now I just think, well, if I can't offer it, I can't offer it. Offer something can't offer it, offer something else.

John Hawker: 1:00:48

I think you get more comfortable with that as you get older as well, yeah, Just being able to push back and say no to things. I remember earlier on in my career I was just a people pleaser. I said yes to everyone, to everything, to the detriment of me or my wellbeing. I was just trying to get everything done in a work capacity. And then you realise, actually I'm doing not just myself a disservice, but the people I'm trying to do the work for as well. Like you, have to say no at some point.

Clio Sigismondi: 1:01:14

It's powerful. Yeah, I mean, when we were setting it up as well, I was working a lot to set up the website, manage this, manage social media and then everything else news, newsletters, making the actual product, thinking of new designs um, that, I suppose, was quite stressful, but I feel like that's just part of having your own business the journey for again.

John Hawker: 1:01:39

It's an awful cliche again one of the things I was going to ask you about actually is like your newsletters and you've just started your magazine as well, haven't? You yeah, yeah these are all things that you don't have to do no, and that's what I tell myself every single day, yeah, do you know what that I?

Clio Sigismondi: 1:01:55

if you'd ask me now if I was going back to school, I'd probably say I want to be in marketing right in a creative strategy kind of marketing job yeah, because I do really enjoy the marketing side of the company. I love thinking of up up of an idea of a collaboration, then putting it all together yeah, and then do you think that's your forte in in business as well?

John Hawker: 1:02:20

do you think that's kind of what I think?

Clio Sigismondi: 1:02:22

that's where I've been able to take the business elsewhere, because I will think of an idea and implement it immediately without worrying about the consequences, because I just think, if it don't go right, don't go right yeah just quietly exit the room, kind of thing, and I think with that it has helped showcase my pieces more, otherwise they would have. Yeah, I suppose because it is.

John Hawker: 1:02:45

It is a really different way of doing things and I guess I guess bigger brands will do. You know I don't subscribe to your newsletter and I'm sorry, but I will do. I will do on the back of this um, but yeah, I think bigger brands it's very commonplace have newsletters. I don't. I think it's a real differentiated start this magazine that you've, that you've launched too, which I think is a brilliant. It's a brilliant idea.

Clio Sigismondi: 1:03:07

But tell me, I did a poll, though, and it was like 50 50 split as to whether you read it or not. Out of the gut, the customers I asked right, that was deflating was it?

John Hawker: 1:03:17

yeah, has it stopped?

Clio Sigismondi: 1:03:18

you wanted to do another one for five minutes I was contemplating it and then I thought actually I quite like it and I'm doing the content anyway. I don't know.

John Hawker: 1:03:27

I think consistency helps with anything like that and it'll be getting.

Clio Sigismondi: 1:03:31

I've only done two, so yeah.

John Hawker: 1:03:33

I mean, I personally like the fact that you've you've channeled your marketing down that route too it's kind of kind of got the lifestyle twist.

Clio Sigismondi: 1:03:41

That was the idea and I've always wanted to do it. Years ago I remember talking to a friend who used to help me with my newsletters. I used to go running with her and she. We used to always have these running business chats and.

Clio Sigismondi: 1:03:55

I'll be like that's what I really want to do and I thought, but I can't afford it, it's too much money. Yeah, um, but yeah, I've found a way of implementing it without it costing too much. It still costs me money, but, yeah, I feel like that will come back eventually it's the balance, isn't it?

John Hawker: 1:04:09

I mean, this, this podcast, is just a passion project, like it's related to what I do for a living and hopefully there's a bit of residual, kind of positivity around the, the brand of my recruitment agency because of it.

John Hawker: 1:04:21

But yeah, it costs money, like it's an investment of time, energy, but but money and um I think if I measured it in the amount of people that listen to the podcast and there's more people listening than I ever thought there would be actually but if I I just need to measure it and do I enjoy it? Am I getting something from it? Is it ticking that creative box for me as well?

Clio Sigismondi: 1:04:41

and it's yes to all of those exactly, and I think I do the same with this these kind of projects yeah I'm hoping it will bring in some extra, of course. Yeah, I mean, if I could get paid for just chatting shit on a microphone for an hour and a half I'd love to do that, but yeah, it's um.

John Hawker: 1:04:57

My advice would be just keep going yeah, yeah, no, I'm I've.

Clio Sigismondi: 1:05:00

I've already got the winter and and the autumn, so yeah brilliant won't knock me off my perch yet.

John Hawker: 1:05:07

No, that's great, that's fantastic. Let's do the flip side. I've asked you about the biggest challenges. What's one of the things you're most proud of that the business has achieved or you've achieved with the business?

Clio Sigismondi: 1:05:18

I think there's a number of things. Obviously, the status of being stocked in, you know, the big museums in London. That's really was one of the targets in terms of a monetary I suppose target or where I want to be. Yeah, um, I, I quite like the idea of what the community we've created, like the people we've employed, like I've got a team. I never would have thought that I'd be running that kind of business, that I have to employ people.

Clio Sigismondi: 1:05:49

Do you know what I mean? So that was a big part of feeling proud of the company. And I remember actually going out for dinner one time and I was wearing some of our bangles and they were like oh, black and city and I was like, oh God. So that moment I was like that is, I feel, famous Just from this random one person who you know. That's brilliant, though that was quite an achievement.

Clio Sigismondi: 1:06:12

But there's different levels of how proud I feel from the achievements we've made, Because all of it is a massive achievement Again the process is an achievement, isn't it Like?

John Hawker: 1:06:31

you don't have to go to an end goal to then be proud of it. You just be proud of the day-to-day the life. Yeah, lifestyle. You've got the, the relationship with work. You've got the the. You know, for me, what my job allows me to do is be present with my kids and obviously that was a big thing, that I didn't mention.

Clio Sigismondi: 1:06:42

I'm able to look after my children at the same time?

John Hawker: 1:06:44

yeah, and that's. That's a really lovely thing. Have you got any thoughts on how you keep the balance right? Do you feel like you get the balance right between being a parent wanting to do?

Clio Sigismondi: 1:06:56

I mean it dips in every now and then again and I have to check in.

John Hawker: 1:06:59

Yeah, parent guilt is. I'm not trying to bring any feelings of that up at all, but it's just a natural juggling, you know sort of saying hang on, hang on, I'm just finishing this off, but I've.

Clio Sigismondi: 1:07:08

I've found now that I've. But that comes with having more cash flows to be able to delegate jobs out, so I don't have to do them yeah but I just again. That is where we are at now yeah um, but I think it's good for them to see that you're working. They come and work with me in the studio as well. So it's good for them to see that you're working. They come and work with me in the studio as well. So there's good and bad points.

John Hawker: 1:07:32

I'm still there to go to the assembly and pick them up yeah if I'm not present for a little bit you say there's a sacrifice in whatever you do. Isn't there? You've got to sacrifice time in in either endeavor it's.

Clio Sigismondi: 1:07:45

It's sacrificing time in the business or sacrificing time being with your kids yeah, I have got better at it and it's more, so there's more of a schedule now so that's good? No, that's that comes with it all being ironed out.

John Hawker: 1:07:59

I think yeah, I was speaking to charlotte the bonsai about um, her view of it and and I think she's, you know, a big advocate for wanting to be um, a great role model for her, for her daughters about you know, being a working mum, and, and doing it, and, and, and, as we were saying earlier, like being this representation or being this inspiration for them to see. You can run your own thing, like you can work in a way and build your own enterprise and do what you want to do.

Clio Sigismondi: 1:08:29

I think it's a great you are your the their greatest inspiration at the end of the day.

John Hawker: 1:08:33

Yeah well, you're worrying my case, but it's yeah, no, it's, it's um, I do. I think the other thing I spoke to Charlotte about was this kind of stigma that you can be labeled with sometimes if you are a parent. That I you know. I said it in her episode I love. I love my children yeah there's a. The narrative from a lot of parents is I do every like. My children came along and I started doing everything for them.

Clio Sigismondi: 1:08:54

Everything was about them oh no, I mean, I didn't do this for them. I did this for me once I had them.

John Hawker: 1:09:00

Yeah, and that's really and that's really, I think, going to be heartening to hear for a lot of people yeah that may be because I still sit at dinner with with friends today and they, like you, had everything for my kids and I don't judge that. It's just that I I still have this kind of self-serving part of my nature that I want to do things intrinsically. Yeah, I want to achieve. I think that's important.

Clio Sigismondi: 1:09:19

I mean, they are um a great life it's hard to put into words is it, it's hard to

John Hawker: 1:09:26

it's wonderful having them in your life but also you.

Clio Sigismondi: 1:09:29

You still want to be able to have your thing yes, yeah and I think that's okay to say. But also, yeah, I've got my own business so I can go to their assemblies and pick them up. So yeah, they go together but did I start black and city for them. No that came after I after I didn't make a decision. Oh, I'm gonna do this because I'm pregnant yeah, yeah I was pregnant, I didn't go back to it. Then black and city evolved, so like you say.

John Hawker: 1:09:59

I think that's really important to say, because there's again, there's enough guilt in being a parent half the time we're balancing all the things that we need to do, our own things we want to achieve, and the well-being of our kids and their aspirations and everything too.

Clio Sigismondi: 1:10:12

It's mind-blowing. I'm overwhelmed. Every day I am as well, from the moment I wake up. Oh my, word. Yeah, I can imagine.

John Hawker: 1:10:20

One of the running themes. We are nearly at the end of this, claire, one of the running themes and something I was really interested to read in the form I asked you to fill out. So one of the running themes in this season is talking to creatives, entrepreneurs, business owners in and around Leon C, and I've been asking people what their view is on this every episode so far, about why the concentration around here is as high as it is.

Clio Sigismondi: 1:10:47

Yeah.

John Hawker: 1:10:48

I get the feeling from what you put in your form that you agree that there is a high concentration of people that fall under those labels. I know we shouldn't be labelling anyone but you know, creatives, entrepreneurs and business owners.

Clio Sigismondi: 1:11:00

Entrepreneurs I think it's a lovely thing to be labelled as yeah.

John Hawker: 1:11:04

Yeah, it is yeah.

Clio Sigismondi: 1:11:06

I wouldn't mind going've had, I've got mixed.

John Hawker: 1:11:08

I've got mixed feelings about that because some people have called me that and I don't think I necessarily fall into that bracket because for my own reasons. But I don't have a problem with with the label if it's kind of like, if I feel like the definition is right, it's me, yeah, exactly. But can you put a reason as to why the concentration is so high? Charlotte, I think I don't know if you listened to her episode she labelled it really well, I remember what she said so she said it was.

Clio Sigismondi: 1:11:36

It was collaboration like one of the reasons why it's the community, I think, is the main, the main aspect. Everyone supports each other and it is major, the collaborations that goes, goes on and that has. That investment goes back into those small businesses and then they grow and grow and hence why we are with a community of millions of entrepreneurs. There's something popping up every week which is wonderful to see yeah I know someone who does something um that I need yeah, locally yeah and I think that's incredible and it's a big.

John Hawker: 1:12:14

Again, going back to your form, I think that's a big impetus for you and the growth of the business and the and the future of the business is collaborating with these local, smaller, whether they're local or not, as you said we've built our business on collaboration.

Clio Sigismondi: 1:12:26

That is part of our strategy because, like I say, I'm not trying to make it into a million pound business. I want to just offer people jobs and also create something that people will like and so I can pay myself. But also I love doing the collaborations because I love working with other people, so I'm always implementing that into my strategy.

John Hawker: 1:12:47

Yeah, it's brilliant, I mean. One prime example that's coming to mind now is that you've done work with Bex Hyde, who seems to be we were talking in the gym the other day about this who seems to be like one of the links between nearly every guest that I've had on whether. I've known it or not, but yeah, bex and Amy is part of what they're doing their new venture at airing. As we record this, they're actually airing tomorrow. Yeah, um, but that's just one example and you know, you've got Andy that's collab.

Clio Sigismondi: 1:13:18

Andy at Colt that's collaborated with Andy because I had a work.

John Hawker: 1:13:21

I've done a workshop set um at Colt as well yeah, so I think they're just examples that are popping into my head and there are more businesses in lee than I've showcased on this on this podcast. But you know I've only got a certain amount of time as well.

Clio Sigismondi: 1:13:36

Really, I did her wedding jewelry. Oh amazing, I didn't know that.

John Hawker: 1:13:40

Yeah, so there's all these little connections that are made and I and I love it like I've got. There are parts like any town that you live in. There are parts that are made and I and I love it like I've got. There are parts like any town that you live in. There are parts that are less desirable, but I think when we're looking at business world of work, how people come in and build their own thing and all the independence, we've got.

John Hawker: 1:13:57

I just I'm biased because I live. I live in this neck of the woods, but it just feels like an amazing thing.

Clio Sigismondi: 1:14:02

I think it's. We're blessed with many things, like you said, the collaboration, and also geographically we are so close to London, so people are moving in yeah who are probably adding to this skill set of what they're offering, but I don't know. Yeah, I think it's a wonderful entrepreneurial town yeah and there's not many places that do this, and I think half of the reason why we're all surviving is because everyone supports everyone.

John Hawker: 1:14:29

Yeah I'm starting to see that a lot more. And and again, I don't run a bricks and mortar place. I know you've got your studio yeah um, but I don't run a bricks and mortar business in in the heart of leon c. But the more and more people I'm speaking to, yeah you just start to realize that feeling of community between yeah shop owners, businesses, everyone referrals you know all these things are just kind of. It's a really lovely, heartening thing it is wonderful, and it will.

Clio Sigismondi: 1:14:56

It expands out to the surrounding areas as well. It's not, but it is. It starts in lead, isn't it? In terms of?

John Hawker: 1:15:04

it seems to be the heart of it.

Clio Sigismondi: 1:15:05

I do.

John Hawker: 1:15:06

I do think it is, but I'm biased again because I'm speaking to people from lead, but I again. That was why. Why I wanted to do this and have this running theme is because I've seen it in the.

Clio Sigismondi: 1:15:15

I grew up in raleigh, so I've never been a million miles away, but quite um another small little hub of small businesses it is.

John Hawker: 1:15:21

Yeah, I've got yeah, I grew up there, so I've got a kind of love hate relationship with Rayleigh, primarily because how long it takes to get to the bloody place I mean.

Clio Sigismondi: 1:15:30

I don't. I'm one of those wankers that don't leave.

John Hawker: 1:15:33

Don't leave my bubble right, okay, yeah, it's too far for me and Benfleet, don't talk about. I mean, what else would you possibly need? That's exactly why yeah but, um, I think, yeah, I've definitely got some experience about, about Rayleigh but rugby, but that's just growing up there. I'm too close to it. Right, Cleo? I have a closing tradition on the podcast.

John Hawker: 1:15:55

If you've listened to them, you'll know roughly what it is. So mum has, as she always does, she's left a question for you. I'm going to play it down the mic. Take a look. Sorry, right, so let's see if mum's been kind this week. I'm sure she has.

Clio Sigismondi: 1:16:12

Hi Cleo. What celebrity or famous person would you like to see most wearing your jewellery? Thank you, Ah, she's quite good at questions isn't she?

John Hawker: 1:16:21

That's pretty good, isn't it? Yeah, I feel like she's really honed the craft on this season.

Clio Sigismondi: 1:16:26

She's getting better. Yeah, do you know what? Trini? Okay, because she is such a fabulous stylist and her collection of jewellery is incredible and she has supported many small independents that I know, who I've met at trade shows, so I feel like she's most likely to wear my stuff and who I would like to see she has the most influence. If I was thinking of a famous person, I mean, I'm not thinking anybody else, because they wear diamonds and we don't do diamonds but, I, always would love um Trini to.

Clio Sigismondi: 1:17:06

I always imagine Trini wearing our stuff, Trini Woodhall yeah yeah, okay, amazing.

John Hawker: 1:17:12

Well, let's see if we can make it happen. Let's make it happen, trini. Probably not going to be on the back of this podcast to be honest with you, but you never know, it's a good question, mum. Thank you for refining your questions for this season, because I feel like you know we, because I feel like you know we were just warming up in season one.

Clio Sigismondi: 1:17:25

These have been a lot better this time around Brilliant, and this has been fun.

John Hawker: 1:17:29

Yeah, Cleo, it's been a genuine pleasure. I hope you've enjoyed it because I know people come in and they get you know. You just don't know what the questions are and whether yeah, I don't know. I just I want it to be an enjoyable experience.

Clio Sigismondi: 1:17:41

It is.

John Hawker: 1:17:52

It's just like chatting with your mate, isn't it about your life? Cool, I hope it was interesting enough. It really was. It really was. Thank you so much, cheers. Thanks for listening to Jobsworth. If you enjoyed this episode, please feel free to like and subscribe. You can stay connected by following me on LinkedIn for more insights on the world of work behind the scenes content and updates on upcoming episodes.