The Secret Society of Shoefitters

In this episode, I sit down with Gemma Simpson, owner of Other Kids, a childrens footwear and fashion store in Leigh on Sea. We discuss Gemma's early aspirations of becoming a pop star to her experiences in various jobs, leading to the establishment of her own business. The conversation delves into the challenges of running a small business, the importance of customer relationships, and the balance between work and parenting. Gemma also shares insights on entrepreneurship, the significance of research, and the fulfilment of seeing her designs come to life.

Takeaways

• Gemma's journey reflects the importance of following one's passion.
• Research is crucial before making a career shift.
• Running a small business requires hard work and dedication.
• Customer relationships are vital for business success.
• Balancing work and parenting is a continuous challenge.
• Designing her own shoe collection was a significant achievement.
• Community support plays a key role in small business success.
• It's important to take time to reflect on achievements.
• Entrepreneurship can be a fulfilling yet demanding path.
• Listening to customer feedback can guide business decisions.

Other Kids
Website - https://otherkids.co.uk/
Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/other.kids
Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/otherkidsleigh

Keywords
Gemma Simpson, Other Kids, entrepreneurship, children's footwear, career journey, work-life balance, small business challenges, shoe fitting, parenting, advice for entrepreneurs.

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Chapters

• 0:00 Introduction to Gemma Simpson and Other Kids
• 1:52 Gemma's Early Aspirations and Career Journey
• 6:49 School Experiences and Their Impact on Career
• 12:09 Navigating Cultural Backgrounds and Identity
• 19:01 Transitioning from Education to Work Life
• 25:00 The Shift to Entrepreneurship and Starting Other Kids
• 32:00 Challenges of Running a Small Business
• 39:04 The Importance of Customer Relationships
• 44:55 Designing a Shoe Collection and Achievements
• 50:57 Reflections on Work-Life Balance and Parenting
• 57:01 Advice for Career Shifts and Entrepreneurship
• 1:03:12 This or That with Gemma
• 1:10:07 Closing Thoughts and Future Aspirations

Transcript

0:00

It's got an opening here as it is as well. That's it, when it's hot, the best thing to do is have ring lights on. Once this feels like a job interview with the desk in there, it's really not. So you can sit back relax. Not been to a job interview for a very Not even a while, that's the weird thing. I've conducted a few, but not been part of them. Right. Welcome to the very first episode of Jobsworth Season 3. This week I sit down with Gemma Simpson, owner of Leon C. based kids footwear and fashion store Other Kids. If you live in or around Lee, have kids and those kids have feet, then you'll know Gemma. And if you don't, well you're about to get to know her pretty well. In true jobs worth fashion, we explored Gemma's experience growing up, learn about her entry into the world of work and shine a light on the events that led her to launching what would become the go-to destination for anyone and everyone looking to ensure their kids' first steps are comfortable and stylish From Islington to Essex, we discussed Gemma's experience in an array of jobs in London, the arrival of her daughter and how she came to leave full-time employment as she looked to return to work following maternity leave. Ever heard of the Society of Shoe-Fitters? Nope. Leave her at eye. But Gemma being a part of it is just one of many signs that she's deeply committed to ensuring her customers and their feet are looked after. Other kids celebrated its 7th anniversary this year. For a bricks and mortar retailer, that's no small feat and as Gemma shares, it's not been easy. But can she ever see herself going back to a 9 to 5? Well, you'll have to find out. So without further ado, let me introduce you to the woman quite literally walking the walk when it comes to ensuring your kids get off to the best possible start one step at a time. Gemma Simpson. Gemma, thanks for coming in. The opening question on the podcast, because if you've heard it, if you've listened to some episodes, you know the rough general format anyway. So the opening question is, when you were younger, what did you want to be when you grew up? Well, quite a few different things. I love them all the Mary. I have listened to it before and I find it really surprising that so many people have said they didn't know. Okay. So you're someone that had a clear idea. not really, not really, but as a kid, you, I just always think every kid wants to be something. Don't they? Yeah, I think so. I'm always shocked when people say I've got no idea. But if I was on the other side and someone was asking me that, which they have done since this podcast, I then struggled too. But if you've got some, Well I remember as a little kid wanting to be a hairdresser purely because my mum was one. So I think that was just a natural thing of like I want to do that, want to do people's hair. And then as I got older I actually really wanted to be a pop singer. So how old, what sort of age is this? As a teenager, so I started going to, so I went to a normal school, but I went to like a drama school at the weekends and you had to do a mix of dancing, acting and singing. horrific dancer. There was really no point but I had to do it. The acting was a bit sketchy but I could actually sing and I loved it and I really wanted to do that so that for quite a while was something I really wanted to be. Was this around the time that like Pop Idol and stuff was coming out? A little bit older than that so I think... No, it wasn't it wasn't motivated by seeing stuff on TV? no, was just, I don't know, was like watching Divas or whatever and Mariah Carey and just wanting to, I just loved singing and I think, but I don't know if I was really ultra confident enough to push it. I did go to auditions and do all that kind of stuff for a little bit. Wow. So how long did that... I say dream, how long did the aspiration last as something you were actually pursuing? Well, I went to college. There was a few things, I almost felt like it was like... so ridiculous that it was never going to happen. So I knew really that I had to have an alternative plan. Okay. So you weren't putting all your eggs in that No, was definitely not putting all my eggs in that basket. But you must have had people around you saying you were good. Not just your own. Yeah, yeah. mean, my mum, bless her, she's my biggest champion in life. I don't that, So, you know, wasn't, you know, sometimes you do see people on these shows and you think... crikey why didn't someone just stop them before it got to this stage of them actually going on tv so i don't think i was as bad as that i think i had i had some sort of talent going on there without sounding like but yeah mum mum paid for me to record a demo wow yeah which we've still got nice and then yeah i mean this was before any sort of social media so there was no platform to do any of that kind of like yeah because people getting famous off sharing songs on TikTok, aren't they, and everything? good luck to them, you know, that's what a way to be able to put yourself out there, but none of that was around. This is before even the times of like emails, do you know what mean? Yeah, yeah. Well, did we have emails? Maybe we did. I don't think you're that much older than I'm 41. Yeah, you're not that much older So I'm talking when I'm like, I'm talking about when I was like 16, 15, 16. yeah, so we're just on the cusp, I reckon, of that. age, yeah. okay. So, yeah, it was on the cusp. So you had to physically post your demo to recording companies. And I can remember someone, I don't know how you did it, but you had to of trademark it almost. I don't know what the actual specific term is for it now. But you had to do a copy. with a written date on it and everything can keep it so that if you sent anything out, it was proof that that was always yours so that nobody could stick it because it was my own song that I wrote. You wrote something. We need to get this as part of the promo. This is so cringe. Yeah, so anyway, all of that. But at the same time, I left and went to art college and I also wanted to be... shoe designer. So hairdresser? Hairdresser. Can we label it pop star? Yeah, go for it. hairdresser, pop star, designer. Yeah, all very creative. That's brilliant. Yeah, okay. Brilliant. So the reason I start, usually start that question is because it then leads to maybe what happened next and how we can eat that back. And I think in a lot of ways we'll go on to talk about what you're doing now. And I think it does, the creative part of that does lend itself to what you're doing. Before we get there, it's weird from a timing perspective, we're recording this at a time where a load of teenagers are going to have seen GCSE results. They're going to open A level results. And I can just about remember 21 years ago, opening my GCSEs and Feeling, I did alright at GCSEs, but feeling like, there's something, there's a platform now to start pushing for, because you had all this career advice going into your head. But what was school like for you, and what was the kind of formative part of you starting your career from there? I know that's a broad question. School was a mixed bag, really. Where did you go to school, I'm I'm from Islington in London, so I grew up there. So I went to school in Islington. I went to a mixed school. We had no uniform. I've never had a school uniform in whole life. That's rare, isn't it? loads of people find really bizarre. Yeah, that's like an American thing. Yeah, I don't know what that was all about. I think we were probably the only school that didn't have a uniform. It was pretty hellish, to be honest, because you'd have to worry about every day what you was going to wear. That's the flip side of the coin, isn't it? Yeah, I would have probably loved a uniform, to be fair. But then, perhaps that adds to... people's creativity growing up, I don't know, but you know what it's like as a teenager, you're under pressure to wear certain brands, to look a certain way. anyway, that's by the by. So it was a good school when I first started, it had quite a good reputation. The head left and it very rapidly went downhill. It was quite a rough school. yeah, I mean, I was pretty off the rails for the first Good two years. We're talking senior school at this point, right? Yeah. Secondary school, was just a mixed bag really. The first couple of years, I don't know if it was just my age, like that age where you're testing your boundaries or whether it was stuff, you know, in my personal life, like my mum, I've got a big age gap between me and my brother. Okay. So my mum had my brother when I was 12. Right. Okay. And that seems to be around the time that I went a little bit nuts. So I don't know. if that was played a part in it or it was just hormones of being a teenager or what. It's like a real time change isn't it? Yeah. You're going through a lot and then you've got this other human being that is getting attention when you've been the only person getting that attention. yeah, it must lend itself to it in some way. Yeah, maybe. you know, I went to school with a very mixed variety of people. I grew up in a council house, but a really lovely... Victorian house on a lovely road, nice neighbours. I went to school with a mixture of people like me that grew up in that kind of environment. I went to school with people off of really rough council estates that were poverty stricken. Also went to school with people that were very middle class and lived in two million pound houses in Islington. it was a real mixture of classes, a real mixture of backgrounds. a mixture of cultures, because obviously we were in London, you know. So I don't know, you get, you're in with different crowds that can sometimes influence your behavior and It's very different. You've described like a number of different demographics there. And I think we've both got kids. How old are your kids? So I've got one daughter, she's eight, nearly nine. Okay, yeah. So I've got two boys, six and three. And I think for the most part, and there are... different ends of the spectrum on this, for the most part, the demographic in the school that at least my oldest goes to is quite similar. There's not, I don't think there's a lot of, what's the word I'm trying to look for? So they're in a very white middle class area, and that's what a lot of the children are at the school. Similar to my daughter, she's at different school, but in the same area. I... I really recognized that because it was quite different where I grew up. And it's not a bad thing, it's not a good thing, it's just how it is. Does that change the way you parent at all? Do you feel like you benefited from being in an environment where you had a very different experience? Yeah, think you definitely benefit from it. I don't know if it impacts your parenting, but I think it so many other aspects of your life. So if you want to bring it back to like the job perspective, when you are going out to the big real world, you are going to be mixing with different cultures, different classes, and you're going to be going for jobs and mixing with people at work that are from different backgrounds to you. if you've come from an environment of schooling where that's been the norm for Yeah, you've grown up and that's all you've known. It's just an easy flow, isn't it? Like you're not shocked by anything or you're not like, it's just normal. Whereas I do wonder if, you know, I don't know. I mean, I don't know what sort of school you went to and how you grew up. I don't know if then when you leave and you do go off somewhere else where there's much more going on, whether that feels a bit like, wow. I'll be honest. So from my personal experience, I went to Fitzweymark Secondary School. Which means nothing to me. It's a school in Rayleigh. Some people, at least some people listening to this will know it. But there was maybe a handful of kids that didn't look like me at that school. And I know that when I went to do work experience, I went to do work experience at a primary school and it was at a school where there were a load of kids that didn't look like me. And then when I started working, you were exposed to so many people that didn't look like you. And I definitely felt that there was more of a barrier to overcome. when that was happening. Even work environments, when it was just different people. In a way, think I've still got a couple of hang-ups on that now. So yeah, think having that experience earlier and a bit of immersion into different cultures, different classes makes a big difference too. Yeah, I mean, I'm not judgemental really of anyone, I think, because of that. And also I come from a very mixed background myself. My dad's Arabic. right, okay. And my mum's English. So I've already got that mix of cultures. My dad's a Muslim. My mum's completely not religious at all. They're not together anymore, I might add, but I still have a relationship with my dad. So I had two very different worlds going on anyway. Yeah. So... What was that like growing up? Again, you're in a school where there's lots of, as we've said, it's kind of a diverse school anyway. I was in a diverse school. But because I look very white, I don't think anybody really ever thought there was any mix going on there. They just thought I was a white English girl, apart from the fact that I had an Arabic surname. So they'd say, where's your dad from? And I'd say he's from Syria. But nobody knew where Syria was. It was a weird thing really. I don't think I 100 % knew where I belonged in that situation. You'll probably find that a lot of people that come from a mixed background will say the same. Because you're not 100 % anything, are you? So I ended up really mixing with people that just looked like me, because that's just how it happened. there was a lot of racism that I experienced in front of me. Yeah. Because they just thought they could say those things in front of me. not targeted at you, but you were around it and hearing it was quite a weird thing. But then I didn't fit in with like the Turkish girls or the black girls or do know what mean? Because I didn't look like them. And it was quite, although we all sort of got on, you still ended up even in a mixed school. of different cultures, you still probably ended up in your little groups. There were some clicks based on that. So I don't know. It was a bit of a weird one and perhaps that played a part in me being a bit naughty for the first couple of years. I think in primary school, younger kids don't take any notice of that stuff, of what your surname is. They don't get it or what your mixed background is. When you're little, you've got no like... Prejudice have you again preconceptions? Yeah anything I think that comes later on and I didn't experience any of that stuff until secondary school Yeah, which felt quite weird to a point where I almost Felt a bit shamed and like I didn't want to say where my dad was from and I didn't want to talk about it And it was all a bit of a weird Experience in that sense. Whereas now as an adult, you know, I love telling people where my dad's from because I love the shock They're like what? You don't look Arabic at all or like they fight. Yeah, I love talking about all that side of things. But when you're a teenager, you're so embarrassed and like, I don't know, it was just, it was a weird, it was a weird experience sometimes. But generally secondary school was fine. It was a struggle, I think, to come out of there with really good grades. I think, unless you were very naturally academic. Right. Yeah. You had that. intrinsic drive to want to do well exams. Yeah, I think the last couple of years I knew I had to really get my head down to get out there with some GCSEs and I did, scraped, I scraped through. I got what I needed to get into the college that I wanted to go to. I mean, yeah, there was, we had, we had a couple of people that were employed that I can only describe as bouncers at the school. So there was these two people. that were employed to walk the corridors. That was their job. A man and a woman. And it was just to basically find people that were bunking off, smoking. There was all anti-climbing paint on the fences. We were allowed to go out at lunchtime. I don't know if that was a normal thing. Definitely not from my experience. We were allowed to actually leave the school at lunchtime. There used to be like a place up the road where everyone would go and get chip buttery or you'd walk up to the market up to Chapel Market and go to McDonald's. But it was an opening for people just to not come back. That was my issue with college. the minute, so secondary school was very regimented, you had to be in your classes, everyone knew where you were at all times. And then I went to Sea Vic College which again probably won't mean anything. went there actually, know that one. So you know that one. I went to Sea Vic and all of a sudden they were like you've got free reign to do, pretty much do what you want. So I didn't go. I stayed in the canteen playing cards with my mates or I'd chip off at lunch and go and watch a film and not go back. And that's where the kind of my... my view on education and definitely my experience of the whole thing changed completely because I I benefited from being in a bit more of a routine. somebody to be stricter almost yeah and I think yeah I mean yeah kids would bunk off all the time but I suppose that happens in all schools but yeah it was it wasn't the easiest environment. It sounds really interesting I think your whole experience and definitely when you've got your parents and your dad is Muslim, Syrian, and you feel a bit other because you don't know where that camp is felt like I was living two different lives. Yeah. And especially because... when I was up to no good as a teenager, I never wanted my dad to ever, ever find out. Because I didn't live with my dad. So I'd see my dad at the weekends. As I got older, it become less and less because I didn't want to spend my weekends because he didn't live near me. He'd moved to West London. And we lived North London. think that's a trend that probably happens with a lot of... Yeah. So it would be... maybe every other weekend sometimes. I just wanted to hang out with my mates. I didn't want to go over there. But when I went over there, it was like, I don't know, was just like completely different world. Cause he'd have all these Arab mates around and you know, we'd eat amazing dinners and stuff, but it was all very wholesome. I never went out. I never saw any friends over there. I'd never talked about any sort of stuff too much that had gone on at school and stuff. Whereas my mum, my poor mum. She had to deal with all the shit. And the ultimate threat was always, I'm going to tell your father. really? Yeah. How old were you when they separated? I was really young, I was like three. Okay, yeah. Similar sort of age to when my mum and dad broke up. I about 18 months, two years old. My brother's about six months old as well. but it's interesting. I think I always start with like... people's experience of secondary school, because I think that can set you off on some sort of direction. So college, did you find any, how did you find college? went to art, I was really good at art and I knew that that was going to be the direction I was going to go in. So I went to a really good art college, but you had to be a certain standard to get in there, so I knew I needed to get my grades. to get in there, I went to Caldwayna's College. Which is now, it wasn't at the time, it was a separate entity, but it is now part of the London College of Fashion. And it was the only college you could go to where you could do a degree in shoe designing. So Jimmy Choo had been there, Patrick Cox had been there. You'd get loads of Japanese students come over that studied there as well. It was a really good college. They did random things. I think you could do a degree in Saddlery. Wow, okay. Yeah, but you had to do, I had to do two years art and design, is it called a BTEC? it? Yeah, where you got like two, it's equivalent of two and a half A levels, wasn't it? So I knew I had to do that for two years before I went, I could go on to do the shoe designing. I didn't stick it out. really? No. Again, like what you said, was this thing of like, there was a lot of freedom and I'd go and sit in the canteen, same thing, I think, I can't be bothered to go back now and it just got a bit like that. At the same time, I still had that thing of like, I wanna be a pop star, that was all bubbling in the background. When I think so cringe, I used to sit in lessons in art college. and I used to write my little songs and I'd sing them to everyone. it's so cringe. So many people that end up being pop stars, in value commas, if we're calling that, or singers, performers in that way, start by doing that. So I get now maybe looking back at it makes you cringe. think, yeah, for me, I just hear it's like, it's a creative outlet, isn't it? Yeah, And something that you wanted to do. So it's nice to have pumped some energy into it. that I went through that and that I enjoyed it. But you just look back at it as an adult and just laugh, don't you? But yeah, unfortunately, I just wanted to have money. Right. and I wanted to earn money and I wanted to go on holidays with my mates and I just thought, I can't stick this college malarkey out, I need to go and get job. Did you see your friends, other people around you that had gone off and started earning money then? Or was it just again this driver in you that you wanted that for yourself? I don't really know. I did have a couple of friends that did just go into sort of jobs. I don't know really, I'm trying to think. I had a few friends that were still at college with me and I'd made new friends through college as well who stayed there. I think it was just me just thinking, yeah, maybe my best friend at the time was in a similar situation and she just started working and we just wanted to go to Ibiza and just be idiots basically. So I left, so I don't even know how long I was there for, maybe I'd stuck out maybe just under a year, I don't know. And then I left and I remember a few months after I left bumping into my tutor on the underground And he said to me if you want to come back, I'll let you come back like I'm giving you the opportunity To come back and finish it And I was like, NASA, don't want to. And I didn't. And I'll kick myself about that now. But. Is that a regret for you? Well, a bit, because I do think it would have been nice to pursue that path properly and see if that led me somewhere else. Yeah. But weirdly. which will probably come on later on in the chat, but I have funnily enough come full circle and ended up working in shoes and designed my own kids shoes. So I definitely want to talk to you about that. I like, I like that was kind of your sliding doors moment, wasn't it? Literally, if you your true on the underground, that was your sliding doors moment. And then these two kind of convergent paths run off. But yeah, it has come back around full circle, but yeah, we will go on to that in a bit. Left college, you wanted to make money. I've done a little bit of stalking on LinkedIn because this is my thing. I pretty much live on LinkedIn as part of my day job. Yeah, don't think there can't be much on me on LinkedIn. There's not really. But it did say P.A. So go into a P.A. role. So is that what happens out of college? in the gaps for me then. So I had had a Saturday job whilst I was at college at Miss Selfridge in Oxford Circus. Hellish job. I can imagine. Yeah. thought, I'll leave college and go and do a few more hours there. That was such a great idea. Not so ended up doing extra days there. It was just awful. It was, I mean, they changed it so much after that, but it was like a separate, it was separate to Topshop. was a big miss Selfridge right at Oxford Circus. It was just packed. It was a constant mess, hot and sweaty. was just such an awful place to work. But it was just easy money and I just wanted to have money. And then I hated the manager there. was very, it was all women. And it was really bitchy and it was just, I just hated it. And then I ended up leaving there and going to work at First Ball at Angel, which was like where I lived. And did that for a bit. I wanted to get an office job, but I had no real qualifications for an office job or I didn't really even know what to do. I just knew that I didn't want to work in a shop anymore. My mum used to sometimes look at jobs because my mum was very much like, if you're not going to college, you will have a job. She weren't putting up with anybody sitting around the house. I've come from a hardworking family. She was like, don't mind you not doing college, but you have to work. So she'd all often say, look, I've seen this in the newspaper. Cause that was, you know, how you found jobs there. Yeah. Yeah. You'd have to look in the paper. And there was a job for a post room assistant at the Royal Institute of Chartered Surveyors. nice. Okay. So I was 17 at the time and I had no idea what it was. Didn't know what the Royal Institute of Chartered Surveyors was. It was, their main building was in Parliament Square. This was a smaller office that they'd taken over in Cadogan Gate, which was just off of Sloan Street. So that was where they needed the new post room assistant to be. So I went for the interview, didn't know what I was talking about, but I think it was more down to personality. They were just like, yeah, you can have the job. So I had to go to Parliament Square, learn what they did in their post room, and then off they sent me to my own post room. just to get on with it basically. It was brilliant, I loved it. I had the whole massive office, which was the post room, was down in the basement. There was a little toilet as well down there, so that was completely my own. There was a little kitchen. They bought me, bless them, a big massive stereo because they felt sorry for me that I was going to be down there on my own. So I this big sound system down there. And the people there were really lovely. I was so young, I think, that they just I was a kid to them, so they just spoiled me. Yeah, they looked after you a little bit. looked after me. there was an Irish guy that was the chef in the restaurant who used to make amazing food. And he'd just be like, don't worry about it. He didn't charge me for any lunch. That's so nice. He'd he kept all the vending machine stuff down in the little kitchen, down in basement. He'd be like, help yourself. So I'd like, on tap. like chocolate crisps. That's brilliant. What an experience. it. And I'd go on nights out, go into work with a massive hangover, run the post round, lock the door, wrap myself in bubble wrap and have a nap. You wouldn't. Really? was brilliant. I loved it. And I made a friend there who is one of my best friends now. That's so good. Yeah, she's a little bit older than me. She was from Alpinton in Kent. through her, I met my husband. That job actually was quite a big thing. But it was there I left and went, did my traveling. Then you did your Valoraki experience. Yeah. Came back and then? back and then I had to find another job where I was like working on reception basically. It was a really small print company in Clark and Well. Okay. I don't know, I can't even remember how long I was there for. And I did a lot of that. Then went on to do another receptionist job for a few years. Which I really liked. I really liked working there. a bit like an I was the office manager's assistant and I did the reception as well. But I was there for a few years, made good friends there, really liked it. And it was all local. Like I still lived in Islington then and that job was in Clark and Welch. I rode my bike to work every day. It was great. Yeah. But I sort of always knew that it was like quite brain numbing work that I was doing. As you've probably guessed by now, the things that I wanted to do as a kid and the things I was good at, like, I was more of a creative person. And it was quite boring to be in these roles, but the money was relatively okay for my age. Yeah. And I think this is a trap. A lot of people that I've spoken to find themselves getting into as well. You get an office job, you get regular. good pay and your pay tends to go up the longer the time you serve with a particular company too. you can't get out of it then because how do you pay your rent? So you've got on one hand you've got intrinsic drive and you've to want to do something creative but at the same time you've got bills to pay, you've got a lifestyle that you want to live so is it worth the sacrifice and at that age probably not because you're going to have to give up there's going to be a lot of hardship if you really want to pursue that and I don't think I'm not going to generalize and say for most people, in my experience and the experience of a lot of people I speak to, I don't think in your early 20s, I'd say even in your mid 20s, for some people even into their 30s, they have enough of a drive or ambition to really make those sacrifices. I'm not saying that's wrong. I fall into that camp, but it's only when you become a bit older, maybe more mature, you've had a bit more life experience that you think, I need to start. Turn my back on some of these things. Maybe you need to do all that stuff first to so right of passage almost to get to that point Yeah, you know, so I'm a true believer in things happening for a reason and But yeah, did that job for a few years and then So much so I met my now husband so I was 20 when I'm at Elliott Yeah, and he was from Bromley in Kent and I've met him through my friend Emma who? from Orpington. So he still lived at home. I lived in London, he'd come and stay. Our flat was just like the party flat because I had a lot of friends now that I'd made through Emma that were from Kent. And of course everyone wanted to go out in London and no one wanted to trains home. it just became the flat everybody stayed at. So that went on for a few years but then we did want to live together. We'd said, right, we need to make a decision whether you're going to move into this flat and we're going to carry on renting in Islington or whether we try to save somehow so that we can buy. we moved out and we started renting in Beckenham, which was over nearer to where he was from because it was a lot cheaper. And I decided to leave the job in Clark and well, that had been out for three years as the receptionist because I'd never done that whole commuting thing before. And I thought, my God, like it's so far away. How many get to work every day? Like I was used to getting on my bike and do like a little 15 minute out the road. I used to get like a bus or the underground a few stops to previous jobs, but that seemed really far. was like, okay. And his friend at the time worked for a recruitment company in Beckenham. So he said, I can get you a job. There's a job there. like as a PA or admin assistant, whatever it was. So I left that job. We moved to Beckenham. I started this job in Beckenham, which was like a five minute walk. And it was like hell on earth. And I felt completely cut off from any world that I'd ever known before. Because all of a sudden wasn't living in London anymore. And I didn't even have that connection because I wasn't going in every day for work. And it just felt weird. you said you're in recruitment. So you're from that world. my God, I hated it. was just, it was a very male environment. The only women that worked there were the people that were admin or PAs or a reception. we were bottom of the rung. it was a very male focused environment. And it was fine. Like I got on with everybody there. But you did get to a point where you think, my God, I'm getting paid absolute peanuts here. You're on some ridiculous wage. And you treat me like shit or whatever it is. we were actually, we worked really hard. We worked like dogs, to be honest. And me and one of the other girls, we were just like, we want out. And we both decided to leave at the same time and just leave them in the shit. Yeah, nice. I will just kind of... double down on what you're saying, I used to work for a bigger recruitment agency and our back office team was bigger than our frontline sales team. And without them, we would have all been fucked. Like, so you can't, it's like having an engine with nothing in it turning around. you can do all the, can do all the in recruitment, the sexy stuff when the clients make the placements. But if you've got no one sending contracts out, sorting payments out, everything else falls away. And often, yeah, they are the people that just don't get any recognition. both financially and any other way? Well, this is it. And I think that was the first job that I left without having another job. OK, because you were just done. bad that I just had to get out of there. And I remember worrying a bit about that. everybody said to me, you can get a temp job. And I did do something for a bit. I won't bore you with that. And then I got the job at Arcadia as a PA. Initially it was for BHS menswear. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It was I didn't realize they were part of Arcadia group Well, they became part of our Arcadia group whilst I was there. Okay got you. Yeah, I Feel like we should caveat for any of the younger listeners. BHS was a old fuddy-duddy sort of... It's got that stigma around it now. I remember my mum at the time dragging me into things like even as a teenager if we were out in Southend High Street there used to be one and you'd just get dragged in there and it was like okay. Yeah go in there to buy slippers or like... I feel like we're offending a lot of people. a bit like Marks and Spencers but not as nice. That's a great way of, they should have had that on the branding. Can you imagine? But yeah, I think that's a good, if you haven't heard of BHS, definitely Google it, but But it's a bit of an &S kind of thing, but without the nice food. Great way of describing it. But yes, I was there and I knew that this job was maybe a little bit out of my depth and I hadn't, I'd never been a PA before. I'd only ever really done like admin assistant, receptionist kind of thing. So as PA to the two buying directors for BHS menswear, they were the loveliest guys ever. They were so funny, hilarious, and I really liked working there. I did have a wobble when I first started because I had to do a lot of numbers and numbers ain't my thing and spreadsheets and... I to look at a little bit of the financial side of what we were doing in terms of what we were spending as a department. So you were creating reports and bits and pieces and stuff like that. had a real wobble and I remember getting really upset because I just couldn't do it. I just thought I don't understand it. And it didn't matter how many times I sat down with this woman from finance who just thought I was an absolute pleb and had explained the same thing over to me. And I kept saying to her, tell me in layman's terms like because i just it wasn't my thing like even now i i'm not i can't grasp that side of business like i'm not great with that i'm i'm awful with the numbers that's why i just found a really good accountant and i just i have to trust him because if it was left to me you could be totally ripped off honestly i've got no clue i trust him yeah so he's literally my my Whole livelihood is in his hands really. But yeah, I'm crap with numbers. You can run a business and be crap with numbers. Well, kind of. You can wing it a little bit. Kind of, yeah. But I can remember, I can remember speaking, I thought, I can't do this job, I'm going to have to leave. I'd been there about a month and I remember speaking. So there was two guys that I worked for and one of them was a lot softer than the other one. I remember Tom, his name was, and I said, like Tom, can we have a meeting? And I said, I think I'm going to have to leave because I can't do this. blah, blah, whatever it was, this specific thing. And he just looked at me like I was mad. And I remember crying. And he was like, my God, like, don't be stupid. It's fine. Like, don't leave. What are you talking about? Like, we'll sort it out. It's fine. He said, you'll look back on this. in a few months time and you'll just be like, why did I get upset about it? What an idiot. And he was completely right. And I got the gist of it in the end and I got in the swing of it and I ended up working there seven years. Was it six and a half, seven years? For the same two people as well? No, so loads changed whilst I was there. we were, we were part of our, well, we were under Philip Green. So I don't know whether. Initially that was part of Arcadia, but he was in charge of both BHS and all the Arcadia brands. We were in a separate building to them. They then merged Burton menswear and BHS menswear. Burton I don't think is around anymore either. Burton's not around anymore, was a mainstay of my wardrobe for a while. I remember Burton well. Burton was a little bit more hip and happening than BHS. I'm glad you said that. Thank you. Yeah. Yeah. John weren't knocking around in the BHS. No, don't think so. Unless my mum bought me something from there, is possible. But yeah, so they merged the two brands because they'd started to put Burton into BHS stores. They were doing a lot of this, like where they were putting some of the Arcadia brands in the BHS stores because Basically, BHS was dying on its ass. And they were trying to do whatever they could. needed an injection of something else, didn't it? All other brands were really having to try and carry that. So I ended up having a different boss and a few different changes. But I generally liked it there. But again, it was that case of when you're a PA. you're doing a lot of stuff and you're getting no thanks and it's this unrecognized thing and the pay isn't amazing and it's... you kind of get a bit fed up with it. Is it quite a kind of a reactionary job as well rather than being given loads of autonomy? I mean you're you're giving a to-do list aren't you? And guess different bits and pieces can come in at any one time. You've amount of responsibility that you know is there for certain things but yeah it's a little bit reactive but it was... It's just quite mundane things that you do, but I liked the environment because it was a fashion environment this time and it was different to anywhere else I'd worked before. So I think initially I thought if I can get my foot in the door as a PA, it might lead to something else because I was really into fashion and that world and I thought, it would be amazing if I could kind of move in enough direction. But actually I think the reality of it that I saw firsthand wasn't as exciting as I thought. it was hard work and all the buying assistants had done college and uni and they were getting paid less than me. And they were getting treated worse than me. And they were having to be there at the crack of dawn and stay there till bloody 10 o'clock at night sometimes, prepping for these meetings and these collection. And at one time, one of the buying managers said to me, would you like to move across to our team, be on the buying team? And I actually said no. Whereas initially, before I started there, I think I thought that would have been the dream. Yeah, if you'd had the opportunity, maybe at the start, you have jumped in both feet. I actually thought that looked more hard work than what I'm doing and they're not getting paid as much as me. Did you listen to Bex's and Amy's episode? Amy, and I cannot remember, I want to say &S that she was a buyer for in some capacity. And her experience was one of like really committing to the job and yeah, being underappreciated. Yeah. Not recognized for the effort. It was quite a male dominated again like there wasn't many There was one woman who was a director in that menswear environment. Yeah But everybody else was male and which doesn't bother me so much but I don't know it's just a it's a funny thing isn't it when you look back and I mean Philip Green as I'm sure loads of people heard many many stories about him. everybody was under him as well. So it was quite a weird environment sometimes, but I liked it there. just, I just knew that I knew that really, as the years went on, I knew really I wasn't probably going to do anything creative and that that ship really I felt had sailed as I was getting nearer to 30. And I'd changed a different... I'd moved into a different part of my own life where I'd got married and really I really wanted to have a baby. And I thought at that point, well, what's the point in me trying to pursue anything new? I'm just going to have a baby. And once I have a baby, I'm never going to work again. So is that what you had in your head at that time? That was the kind five year plan at that point was have a baby that's... I when I have a baby, I ain't going back to work. This is going to be brilliant. And yeah, so I didn't really push to myself or pursue any searching. I, we had a really rocky road for me to try and get pregnant basically. It just wasn't happening. And I've just felt like I was really stuck in a rut of this thing of, I try and get another job? And then I got to a point where I just thought, sod it. I'm going to start looking for another job. If I get pregnant, then great, whatever, I'll deal with that. So I remember going for a few interviews, things that didn't work. And then I did get a job. for a really big American footwear company. This is Wolverine? Yes. Okay. So a lot of people won't know what Wolverine is. I saw it LinkedIn. I've only known it through, again, some crossovers with different brands I've helped hire for in the past, but do they sell any brands that we... that we'd know. So they, so do you remember Caterpillar? Again, the younger crew, although I'm waiting for a comeback of Caterpillar because all 90s stuff's really in fashion now isn't it? I Caterpillar is still doing like the work wear. you would, they were like back in the day of like combat trousers and stuff, which is all come back round. hate to say now, I've got that old, that it's come back round. That was quite sort of a bit of a fashion thing at some point. Anyway, so Caterpillar was one of their brands. Hush Puppies. Yeah, I remember Hush Puppies as well. Yeah. And we are dating ourselves. know. is really like ancient talk, isn't it? It's fun. And what about Merrill? Yes. Yeah, yeah. I Merrill as well. Yeah. Socony or Socony I think it's pronounced. S-A-U-C-O-N-Y. Yeah. Hipster. I think so. Yeah. So they had loads under their umbrella. And yeah, I was hired as a PA to the vice president of their lifestyle brands. And it was a big jump in pay. Yeah, but it was a lot more interesting. They gave me a lot more responsibility. I was really involved in their events for their campaigns. And I loved that because it was a bit more creative. And I really, really loved working there. I had some really lovely colleagues. I mean, my boss. Some people got mixed reviews about him, but I really got on with him really well and I really enjoyed working for him. And it was the first time actually that I'd been in a job where I felt completely comfortable. didn't feel, I felt like I felt capable. I felt appreciated and I just really liked working there. And then I was there for... about two years, two and a bit maybe two years and then I got pregnant. So I had gone on maternity leave. thinking that I would go back there but only on a part-time basis because they were based in King's Cross in an amazing building in the I don't know if you know where the Guardian building is in King's Cross so King's Cross very trendy now isn't it? Yes yeah I've been there a few times very different from when I grew up that side of London but yeah amazing building anyway I had a chat with them briefly about... you know, what would happen once I'd left and blah, blah. And they had given me the impression that it would be possible to come back on a part-time basis and they'd maybe look at doing a job share or something. When it actually came to the time, it was very different. So that had all gone out the window. And they messed me about quite a bit actually to the point where They then said that they could, they'd kind of created a role that would be on a part-time basis that they said I could do, that they'd sort of put on a letter in writing, on an email. And then they backtracked later down the line and said, no, that that's not gonna happen now. I can't remember the completely the ins and outs of it, but that's the gist of it. And I knew that I could perhaps get them on that because I was like that's wrong and it was wrong because I did it's quite an emotional thing when you're going to go back to work when you've had a baby as well so you know this whole thing of having to look at nurseries and all that kind of stuff so I did have to do that. So it wasn't a lie, but I laid it on thick because I knew that by this point I wasn't going to go back because it wasn't doable. I wasn't going to be able to get up early enough to get to King's cross and leave my chart and my baby for five days a week in a nursery. you, were you in Essex at this point? So when did you move to So I moved to Lee. when I was 30, so 11 years ago. So I was working at Wolverine at the time. Yeah, maybe it was all around that time. Because it was really weird because the woman that, one of the women that interviewed me at Wolverine lived in Leoncy. And I'm really good friends with her even to this day. She lives about three streets away from me, Amanda. Yeah, was really bizarre. Everywhere you go, you meet someone from It's madness. So yeah, so I was living in Essex by now. So yeah, I just knew it wasn't doable. And by the time I'd paid out for childcare and train fares and everything else, what was it gonna be left with? Nothing really. There's a lot more protections around mums that are going to go back to work now around that. think there's a lot more law and legislation that protects that. know, it... In an ideal world, you are contesting a decision that's made like that, shouldn't feel like such a battle. No. But I appreciate there's had to be a... people have had to wait for a lot of shit to get to this point now. massively. And there's so much work still to be done, 100%. Of course, yeah. But, I mean, I knew I could pin them down with something and I knew they wanted me to go away. Yeah. By this point. So I had a little bit of a payoff from them. Okay. And my daughter was just turning one. She just started walking. I'd gone to all the normal places that people go when their child first starts walking. I knew that I didn't know lots about that world, but I knew she needed to be measured. I didn't know what size shoe she was. knew that her at least the first pair of shoes would need to be properly fitted by somebody. And there wasn't anywhere in Lee. And I remember going to Southend to Clark's and it was horrific. I don't know if it still is at the time. And there was nothing. that I am also a fussy person, I'm not gonna lie, I like nice things and I just didn't like anything in there and I think they had like one style that was in her size and then I remember going to Lakeside, going into Shoe Gun, into all the shoe shops that were there that could possibly measure her but there was just nothing, it was like shoe, they had a pair of Converse and I just a like, I know that Converse probably aren't the... Greats first shoes for baby. So it kind of got me thinking like why is there nowhere like there's nowhere else other to go really than Clark's but Clark's was the like the mainstay. When I was a kid I remember taking like going with my mum and me and my brother at whatever age even four or five years old sitting there and they do the old thing with the light. then became a light box set, can't even... I don't know if you remember that. Yeah, some weird and wonderful stuff. anyway, yeah, they were just doing this stuff, but that was always it. It was only ever class. Yeah. That was my experience. It's a funny thing, isn't it? And then I... Sorry, my mind's gone blank. But you started to identify this gap, a bit of a potential gap. I identified a bit of a gap there, and I also felt... I felt in a weird place because... Thought what do I do now? Do I start looking for a local job? I knew that I needed I mean we were okay for a bit without me working But I knew that really I needed to work Okay, and I knew that it needed to be relatively flexible because I you know, Daphne was still really young. Yeah and I Just I just felt like a bit I felt like I'd hit a bit of a brick wall and I felt like I didn't want to just like I don't want to put any sort of job down, but I felt like I didn't want to just go and be a receptionist because it was easy hours and it was local. Like I would have rather have just spent time with my daughter. But weirdly this conception, this preconception I'd had years ago of this thing of when I have a baby, I'm not going to go back to work. that changed quite quickly. It seems to have done. When they start teething and you're trapped indoors and you're going out of your mind, I was like, actually I wouldn't mind going to work. That sounds quite But just not five days a week. knew that I wanted the best of both worlds. Of course I wanted to spend time with my daughter, but I've worked my whole life since 16 and to not work felt weird. Yeah, I've spoken with my other half at length about this and having and a lot of guests actually that sense of sense of self and how it's impacted when you become a parent massively because You're expecting almost like there is this perception that when you become a parent everything changes internally You change your drivers your motivations aspirations all become singly focused on your child and for so many people that is Obviously things shift, but it's not this seismic, I'm now going to live this selfless existence that is completely focused. I think you're, yeah, especially for the first part, you are just mum, aren't you? Or dad. I mean, it depends what your setup is at home. There are stay at home dads as well. Depending who's obviously the breadwinner, that makes that decision, doesn't it? And for us, my husband earns more money than I do, so it was a no brainer. So you do start to feel a bit like that. And also what happens is anyone you're mixing with, so a lot of the people that I was mixing with with babies who I'd met through NCT or whatever, they were gradually starting to go back to work. So I was like, you know, like- Is that what you do? Yeah, then it didn't, well, it didn't feel like so scary or so alien because it's like, well, everybody's got to do this. And I was almost quite envious in a way, because they were having this thing where they could go and do a couple of days in the office and go to London and have a nice lunch and do you know what I mean? And then still have that rest of the time with their baby. So nothing's easy, know, it's all like a fantasized view. Of course, whatever you do, it's always a juggle and a stress and everything else. But I did think, no, I do need to work. yeah, so I was, I had to go to the job centre for quite a bit. I was getting my jobseeker's allowance. But at the same time this idea had started brewing and I had this little bit of money that had been given from my payoff from them. Wasn't a big bit of money, wasn't a life-changing bit of money, but it was a little chunk of money that I just thought, what can I do? I could do something that's going to help me. It's the catalyst for something. start something off. then, yeah, I just, I just couldn't get that out of my head, that shoe thing and the shoe fitting. And I started to ask some of the other mums like, well, where, because I, this is where other kids come from. So I thought, well, where do the other kids go? Nice. For their shoes? Yeah. Like where are other kids going for shoe fitting and like what, you know, what's going on here? And I'd, I'd looked up like First Walkers online. I could see that there were these nice looking First Walker brands, but there was nowhere to go physically in a shop to try them on and to see what the fit was like. And I started researching it and I'd found a couple of small independents at different places around the country. And I just, yeah, I just got it in my head, cut a long story short, and It's a funny thing when you get an idea like that because you sort of, when you tell people, you don't know what their reaction is going to be to it. Like if you're not from a, I'm not from a family that have gone and just started their, well, I say that my dad did have his own business, but like my mum has just always worked as a hairdresser, always worked for somebody. My grandparents were store holders. And although they worked for themselves, It didn't, I don't know, but I just felt like it just seemed like I knew they were going to think, it's a stupid idea. And what was their reaction? It was mixed. They thought it was a stupid idea. And I wanted people to be honest with me as well. And I asked a lot of the NCT group that I was very like involved with at the time. So we had a good group of our NCT. Some people have bad experience of NCT. I had a really good group who I've made really nice friends with. And we were all quite close at the beginning. and we had our little WhatsApp group, so we all on that all the time and I was sort of like feeding the idea to them and I think most people were quite supportive. You could tell a couple of people were thinking that's a shit idea but they didn't want to say it but you could hear the doubt. So I was just putting the feelers out really and I thought I'd found this woman online that was doing shoe fitting as a pop-up. So she didn't have a physical shop. was just aiming it to a very young age group. from first walkers and toddlers maybe, she only took the sizes up so high. I suppose she had quite a select amount of like choice, but she was doing, she was like going to the baby groups, different cafes and stuff where there'd be families, mums, babies, and rotating it on like a six weekly basis and advertising it. So. they'd put posters up or Instagram. date. And that seemed to like be working. I thought that could be something because it's more flexible for me whilst I've got a baby and I don't have the commitment of committing to a shot of physical space. I create a website and then the shoe fit inside of it I could do as a pop-up. So that was the road I was going down. I'd looked into like, how do I know how to measure and fit shoes properly? I found the society of shoe fitters, which unfortunately doesn't exist now, but it did at the time. And you can do a course with them. Quite intense, but you learn all about your feet and it's for adults as well, but I only wanted to do children and how that affects the rest of your body and loads of different, it was... It was the best thing I ever did for that job. And I'm so pleased that that was available to me at the time because it gave me so much knowledge. And it also taught you a little bit about the business. It wasn't just about the shoe fitting. So it was really invaluable knowledge to have. And just I had to research loads of different brands and the costs and the shoes and all that kind of stuff. It was quite mind boggling, to be honest. Can I go back? One step, I just want ask you one question. How much were you influenced by those voices either saying, yes, it's a good idea or no, it's a bad idea? If there'd been enough people saying that's a shit idea. Yeah, if there was enough people, like an overwhelming amount of people saying that's shit idea, then I would think, okay, don't do it. But I think people... I think it was a thing that maybe a lot of people hadn't thought about. So they were like, hmm, okay, well, don't know, maybe. I don't know if they were sure really. I think my husband was a bit like, I think. When it got to the point where I was going to have the shop, I think that's when my husband was a bit nervous about it. But the shop happened by accident. So I used to drive up and down the London road quite a lot. I don't know why, where was I going? I don't know, but I seem to always be passing that bit where Chalkwell Park is. And there was this little tiny, tiny shop that was on the corner and it just had a little tiny piece of paper stuck in the window and it was completely empty. with a telephone number on it saying to let. And I kept seeing it and I thought, I wonder if they'll let me do a pop-up in there whilst it's empty. At this point, had you started doing that, those pop-up style things? hadn't done any of it. I was in the real beginnings of trying to get the society shoe fitters course finished. getting in touch with all the brands. is where- is all coming to a head at the same sort of coming to head at the same time, yeah. My daughter was only one at the time, so I was saying you're doing this with a newborn. one year A one year old, yeah. Yeah, so it was quite full on. But I was lucky enough to have a few people I could talk to from Wolverine from my previous job because that was footwear. Yeah, of course. I- I again had some like invaluable advice from some people that I would always be grateful for. Jezza, good old Jezza, one of my colleagues there. He's actually a rep that I deal with now. Funnily enough, he's a sales rep for one of the brands that we sell. he spent loads of time on the phone to me, giving me advice, telling me stuff I wouldn't have known, you know. So it was really good and I was lucky to have that. And then, yeah, so I sort of thought... I'm gonna go for it, I'm gonna get the ball rolling. I've got this little bit of money that I didn't think I was gonna have. If it all goes to shit, I'll have to just go out and get an office job. So I just... I'm quite sensible, but I have got quite a big fuck it button as well. I describe myself as having a fuck it button. Yeah. I think, I think some of the best decisions I've made because I've hit it and also unfortunately some of the worst decisions I've made. can even it out and say, I'm probably just about on top. But yeah, I think you've got a. And I think sometimes I do just press it and I was like, I'm just going to go for it. I don't care. but then yeah, when I saw that little shop and I thought, I'll sort it, I'll ring the number. I'll see if, if I could. when I initially start, whether I could have it just for a month, like as a pop-up, just to get my name out there and get people to know about it. And then when I rang up, funny enough, he's in one of these offices here, I think, or he used to be, I might know, but I won't tell his name. So I rang up and this person answered and I started sort of telling them, asking them, and then I sort of like recognized his voice and then I said, is that you? so and so and he said yeah and then I said it's Gemma so it's basically one of the NCT dads. wow I get another small world scenario. So family have got a very big well-known property company around here, estate agents and stuff so it was one of his properties and he just said just take it on. We won't sign a contract. The rent was absolute peanuts. And he said, if you want to take it on as a rolling thing, just see how it goes. I did. So going back to your comment earlier about believing things happening for a reason, we didn't label it as fate, but maybe there's an element of that to it as well. All of this coming to a head all just seemed to happen at the right time. Yeah, maybe. you know, I would have gone back to that job at Wolverine if they'd have been more flexible with me. But maybe it's a good thing that they weren't more flexible with me because then it leads you here, doesn't it? That little bit of investment that you're allowed to put into the business or are able to put into the business and then it acts as the genesis of something that now we're talking about. Like you described it as an idea that people weren't sure about. I'm not trying to blow smoke up your ass by saying this, Gemma, but in terms of our local area, you are the person that anyone that has kids approaching an age where they're getting their feet sized, it's only ever your name. It's only ever other kids that are being mentioned. It's amazing to have gone from that point where you're even probably yourself, you're doubting, is it a good idea? people are like, yeah, the concept I'm not really sure about. And now, what are we, seven years on? You're of sat there very much established as the go-to person in that space. Yeah, I mean, I think there's still a lot of... I mean, it's always a learn... You're always still learning, you know? It doesn't matter how long you're in business, I think. you're still learning, you still always feel nervous, you still wonder, I doing the right thing? Why did I start doing this? But then it's like with any job, isn't it? There's always pros and cons. it was definitely like the best decision I made and I'm proud of it as well. know, like if it all went to pot tomorrow, I could walk away and say, I'm proud of that. Like it was successful. whether it will be successful forever, I don't know, but it's definitely had its moments. It has been successful. Yeah. And I didn't have any background of that. I had to learn that myself. And I did it, I opened the shop, my daughter was just coming up to 18 months when I opened that shop and it was bloody hard. It was really hard. It a big impact on our lives as well. initially something I was doing because I thought was going to be more flexible for me as a mum. Well, I can share that motivation when I'd set up my business. I left this bigger agency that I worked for and set up the business when my son had just turned one, similar kind of time, like point in time. And it was the midterm goal was to get a better work life balance. Yeah. And if I zoom out, I talk about this a lot, if I zoom out over last five years, I have had a better work life balance. If I zoom in on a given month, it is shit. Like I work more hours than I ever did in a typical nine to five, but I wouldn't change it. It's different, isn't it? your responsibility, your pressure that you're putting on yourself. I think there's something, that autonomy, I think is something that I've really loved. I change it. think, and any, you know, respect to anybody that works and juggles a family because whatever job you're doing, you know, if I had, if I did go and get an office job and I didn't have the stress of running a business, it would still have other stresses and going into London every day would have added more stresses, longer hours. Again, I think what I didn't realise that how all consuming running a business is and that it took up a lot of my brain space. It still does, but at the beginning, very much so. And I almost sometimes look back and feel bit guilty about that because I've only got one child and I do think, I hope that that didn't impact my parenting so much. If I'd have gone and worked in London every day, would have, you know, like it's just... job of a parent is to feel guilty about pretty much every decision you make. And it We're always wondering, it the best thing for our kids? And, you know, I'm not sure my husband feels guilty about going to work every day, though. God love him. But that changed his, you know, that had a big impact on him as well, because then all of a sudden, every Saturday, I wasn't around. I had to be... in that shop. Now I don't so much. I've got staff. I'm lucky enough to have built it up to have some staff and not have to work there every Saturday. But for the first two years, I had to work there every Saturday. So he had weekends off. So he knew that Daphne was going to be with him solely every Saturday. But then maybe that was a good thing. Maybe that forced them to have that time. To really have quality time together. It is annoying having to work on the weekends. It does limit things a bit, but then yeah, I don't know. So it did impact us as a family, but I think, you know, we've come through it and it's all good. Do you know what I mean? I'd imagine seven years down the line, it's life now. It's just normal. It is. It's just how you all operate. I'm not, don't, because obviously... as time goes on and you build a business up more, you have more finances to do things in an easier way. The first couple of years, I didn't have an accountant. I was doing everything and I still do most things myself. But as time went on, thought maybe I can afford a member of staff so that I can have every other Saturday off. Or a holiday. Yeah, or a holiday. Maybe I can afford to pay for an accountant to... you know, do my VAT return. But that comes much later, like unless you're going into a business with a lot of money, which I wasn't, and you know, like I had to really build that up. So I'm in a better place of having a good work-life balance now. So it's paid off eventually. That's great. What were the biggest challenges you faced? Well, you know, you're seven years old now. are the biggest challenges you faced in that time? God, we've got another few hours. Have there been many? it's, you know, any, anyone that's trying to build up a reputation for business, build a brand from scratch. You know, I didn't, I didn't have any background of like designing a website and all that kind of stuff. You're also with having a physical shop and a website. It's almost like doing two different business. Yeah. online part of it. Yeah. And I was having to learn as I went along because again, I didn't have the money to pay someone just to completely take control of a website. So that I had to juggle. And also it's not just a shop. I'm providing a service. you're you're dealing with like the public anyway, like you are in any shop, any like retail environment, but you're also doing something quite personal and you're providing a service and I'm a perfectionist when it comes to things like that and I want it to be right. And I know over the years there's been times where maybe people don't get it or... They're not interested. They just want that brand. don't, know, and I'll say things and I know sometimes maybe I sound patronizing, but it's because I want them to have the best experience of it. I don't want them to leave and they've got something that's not right for their children. Like it's so important that children have properly fitted shoes. And that's a whole other like conversation to be honest with you. We've got this good little network of small independent shoe shops and we all talk and we've got our own WhatsApp group and our own little Facebook page. They're all over the country. And it's nice because no one else understands it because it would be impossible for them to understand it. every now and then we can have a little rant about something that might have happened in shop. Just with people that get it. Yeah, and they get it. And it's a big topic that we're talking about how really to get it under the government's radar that when a baby's born and you get these packs, you know, like of what to do and advice and sort of those milestone stages of changing and weaning and all that kind of thing, that almost the shoe fitting thing needs to kind of be part of that because I get so many people that come in the shop that have got babies and they're like, when do we buy first shoes? They don't know. And it's a simple answer when they start walking really, but some people have got this idea of like, do we need to put shoes on them first to help them walk? Yeah. You know, there's, there's loads to it and, or that they're just guessing sizes and stuff. And it's, it's actually, impacts your health to have badly fitted shoes. So it's quite a big topic that isn't covered. whole education piece around it, as I think it is for a lot of milestones that you'll, that your kids hit. Yeah. think, yeah, it's, still terrifies me. the things that I had no clue about until you're having these conversations. You're like, no one told me this was going to be a thing. Exactly. And you don't want to frighten people, but it's in that shop because we don't just have shoes. We've got a bit of a mixture of other things now as time's gone on. I don't want to frighten people off with being too over the top about it. So it's hard to try and keep that balance. But it is important and it's our niche and it's hard work. I could spend an hour sometimes with a customer trying on different things or the size isn't quite right or they don't like that and they could leave with nothing. And that's an hour of my time. If you went into a hairdresser's and they spent an hour cutting your hair and at the end of it you said, well I don't like it so you just left and didn't pay them. You don't do that. It's weird actually, someone was in the shop on Saturday and I'd never ever thought of it like this. They were really lovely family buying school shoes and you know, gave them a, they didn't have an appointment. Sometimes we do appointments for school shoes just because it's crazy in there. They didn't have an appointment, but I had some time. I said, no, it's fine. I've got time to do it. I'll do it now. So I measured the little girl and we tried on a few different styles and stuff, fitted them. They were really happy. And when she was paying, she said, thank you so much. That's really meant a lot what you've done there. I was a bit taken aback because people don't normally say things like that. And she said, I almost feel like I should give you a tip. And I was like, I mean, she could have given me a tip. But I laughed and I said, that's really sweet. And I said, well, I'll tell you what, you could leave us a nice review. Be really nice on Google or whatever. So hopefully she did or she does. But isn't it a funny thing? And I thought, actually, it is a service that you could. tip for, it would never cross your mind that you would tip someone for that service because you're buying the shoes. But you're buying a meal, but you tip, don't you? You're paying for a haircut, but you tip. But it's a weird thing and it is a service really, but I don't know if every customer thinks of it like that. I've been, so I've always come into your shop with my other half. Yeah, remember you coming in with the boys. Yeah, we're always dealing with the boys who are just very high energy and they're all picking all the other bits that you do up in your shop wanting to buy that too. But yeah, you've always been like, you have like families waiting to speak to you. But in that moment, the kids that you're working with and the parents that you're working with are your focus. And I completely agree, it is a service. And yeah, because you've got the retail part of what it is you do where people could just pick something up off a shelf and say, I'll have that. And then you've got the more consultative part of what you do, which is where the education you committed to and invested in all adds to that. And I think that's why, and with any business, you sometimes take things personally, but yeah, I think sometimes I just, because you're doing that extra work, you kind of... It means more, you know, and you just, don't know. It's a weird thing. You're making a really good point though, and a really honest point is that sometimes you can feel, I'm going to fuck up the word that I'm looking for. Bit of resentment, I think. I'm not saying you resent your customers. I know what you're getting into. I'll put it on me. I sometimes will have conversations with clients or people that I'm trying to find work. Let's say the people that I'm trying to find work do not pay for the service that I provide. The client pays my bills. but I will spend hours upon hours helping people, giving them advice on CVs, giving advice on LinkedIn profiles, whatever. And it's then, sometimes I feel like that isn't recognized as a service where maybe they could go, yeah, you probably need paying for this. But isn't it funny because we're kind of a victim of our own downfall in that because we're not charging for it. No, and I never would, and that's why I try to explain, you know. I knew when I opened that shop that that shop's not for everybody. Like the local merchants on the corner is a shop that's not for everybody. I personally love what they do, but yeah, you'll get, I speak to a few guys that I know that it's not for them. But in a sense of as well that the cost, like we're selling brands that let's not beat around the bush, they're not cheap. So I know that I can't please everybody. It's a shop that I wanted to create because Basically, I wanted to have things that looked nice, that I knew were good for children's feet, that I could then provide a shoe fitting service and that on those three things would all go hand in hand. Yeah, brilliant. Rather than you go to Clark's because you think it's the only place we can rely on to them measured and have them fitted. actually, we don't really like any of the styles or we're going to order something online because we like what it looks like. Do we know if it fits? Is it good for our children's feet? So we were trying to cut all of that out and create something where I could bring those three elements together. And I think for the most part, it's worked. And I think that most part people get it and that's why they come to us. But, I've lost myself now in that. But anyway, it's a funny thing. So you're paying a certain amount of money for things. And as we know, over the years, the money's the prices have gone up. Loads has affected us as a business. We had to go through COVID with that business that was like bloody hell on earth. And I've really bent over backwards for people during that time because people still wanted to buy shoes. Babies were still learning to walk and had no shoes and all they could do was go for walks, park or whatever. I was absolutely bombarded during that time with messages, which was brilliant. And I wanted to keep the business alive and I needed the money because I needed to pay for the stock we still had. I couldn't open the shop, which again was bonkers because the wine shop next door was allowed to be open. we weren't. But anyway, so I was trying to do this like online videos of how to measure your children at home. People were sending me videos of their kids feet and it was just bonkers. And then I was doing this like, I'll deliver to local people for free. I was standing at the bottom of people's drives in burning hot heat. Sometimes Daphne would be with me because Elliot's an electrician. So he was still going to work because he was allowed to to work. So I still had her at home with me and we'd be standing. I'd take like, you know, they'd say it was this measurement. I'd think, we don't know a hundred percent. So I'd take a few different sizes. few different styles, I'd have a box of them, I'd go and drop them outside their door, I'd stand at the bottom of the drive because of the distancing. Honestly, it was ridiculous. And I'd try them on and they'd be saying, what do you think? And I'd be looking, honestly, it was crazy. It was absolutely crazy. But I did it because A, I wanted to help people and B, I needed to keep the business alive. And I think that, I hope that quite a lot of my customers, they remember that, you know, and I'd like to think that they appreciate that, you know. Of course, going above and beyond and the extra mile for people, I think you get a lot of people that buy into you that little bit more. And I think that's a small business thing, though. I think so, yeah, that mentality. But yeah, it's a double-edged sword, really, because you do, you kind of... you do all of that and you want to do all of that and you want to keep your business going. But I do think that you feel like you have to try 10 times harder as a small business. And I've had people sort of say before like, you know, we want to, I don't really know how to word it. And I don't want to upset anyone with this, but like I do sometimes feel like people would. talk to you like they're doing you a favor by shopping with you because you're a small business. And I'm a bit, I appreciate that they feel that they want to come and do that, but I do also think, well, I'd like to think that you shop with us because you actually like what we sell and you like the service we provide and it's convenient for you. You don't have to drive all the way to Lakeside because you can come to us. I wouldn't say you're necessarily doing us a favour, like we're a shop that's here because, you know, we hope that you want what we've got. And it's like, so it's a bit of a weird thing having a small business and people will expect you to go above and beyond. Like people will message you at night and wonder why you haven't replied at 11 o'clock at night. And I just think, don't think Clarks are replying to WhatsApp messages in their mind they Gemma at other kids. As a human being, you've got that... It's personal, You're closer to them, aren't you? So yeah, it does become more of a personal thing, which as you say is a complete double-edged sword. It's a blessing and a curse. It's a lovely thing and we're lucky that we live in a town where, you know... people are really nice and it's a lovely community and 99 % of my customers are absolutely wonderful. Do you know what mean? But any customer facing job, you're always going to have your moments. Plus, Gemma, you're dealing with parents. You're dealing with parents and you are dealing with the little universes of those parents and that is... hard. Yeah, like again, I can see that and I don't have to I deal with parents but not in relation to their kids. Yeah, and I can just imagine some of the conversations some of the things like that. It's hard. You don't want to upset people but sometimes you do have to be a little bit stern otherwise you'd crumble. Yeah, you wouldn't survive as a business. So it's getting the balance right and I think that's what takes time to learn. Yeah. And any any I suppose anyone would say that you know, like Andy in the coffee shop and I don't know what the boys experiences are but anyone that has to deal with that and I talked to a lot of people and you know everybody has these moments don't they? I think it comes with maturity in running a business I think it comes with maturity of customer service as well and understanding the kind of communication you have. is experience isn't it? The more experience you have the better you know how to deal with them. Of course, I've made mistakes and I sometimes think, maybe I didn't handle that so well. I'll have to do, and I remember it for the next time, you know? And that's part of it, you just learning. you know, I'm happy with how things have gone. then this year I've designed a little collection of sandals. That's amazing, wow. you know, something I wanted to do for quite a while. And that's where we're coming again, full circle, isn't it? From your sliding door moment. and I thought actually, I've actually managed to do that. You know, design a shoe and have it created and sell it in my shop and walk down the street and see kids in the park sometimes that might be wearing them. How did that feel Gemma? It's nice feeling. You just think, you're caught up in the day to day of a business. I'm physically in that shop. So I'm not running a business and I'm away from it. it's, you know, I'm in it every day, not every day, but I'm there most, most time and dealing with customers and mopping the floor and you know, like doing the window display. And so there's so many things and doing all the buying and answering emails and you're doing so many other things that sometimes you don't take a step back to recognize what you've achieved because you're doing, doing, doing, and you're tired. And those little moments sometimes when you do, I could be out and I'd see a kid, I quite often see children in local area and I know their shoes are from our shop because I recognise the brands or I know that they are, I recognise the people a lot of the time. But yeah, when I've seen the shoes that I've designed, I think, that's quite nice. It's like a little moment you can have where you can... separate all the other crap that you deal with with the business and that's something different, which is quite nice. And again, I think for anyone, you're running a business, let's say the earlier stages, I'm coming up to, I'll be five, so the business would be five years old in September, thank you, and seven years old for you. And I think for anyone that's going through that process or thinking about doing it, it's kind of forcing yourself to take that step back every once in a while. Yeah. It's hard. The reality of it's hard because you are, it's survival first off. and then it's maintaining what you've got and then it's potentially looking to grow in the future hiring people whatever that looks like but forcing yourself to take a step back and go god actually I've done all right yeah give yourself a pat on the back and acknowledge your achievements it's really important You have to make sure that at some point you have a little bit of a balance with your family as well. Don't let it completely take over because then that's when you become resentful. Exactly that. Yeah. That's a really good point. We're nearing the end Gemma. I've got a couple other things to go for. I'm going to ask, this is kind of one of those really cliche podcast questions, but what advice would you give to someone considering like a major shift in their career? I'd say to make sure you do lots of research into whatever that new path is. The more research you've done, the better armed you're going to be, the more knowledge. You you just don't go into something blind. think sometimes people get an idea of something and they just think it's going to work, but they don't know enough about it. And I did do a lot of research before I went down that road. But I think you just sometimes you have to take the plunge, you know, and not... Not doubt yourself too much, but you also have to be ready for hard work. Yeah, that's great. I think that's great advice. yeah, my advice is similar in that you have to be informed. Yeah. Because if you go into something completely blind, if you hit that fuck it switch too early, there is a chance or a bigger chance, let's say, of potential failure. businesses open and close pretty quickly. And I think Maybe they just didn't know enough about it, know, letting themselves into something they don't know enough about. approach you took as well, kind of stress testing or sanity checking it with a group of people that were essentially going to be your customers, I think is really good. So actually having conversations with enough, a big enough audience of people that could potentially be using your service to see if there's a need for Yeah, you should be frightened to ask people, you know. I don't think you should be frightened to talk about it with other people first. You know, like, no one's going to judge you. It's better to do that. Even now, mean, if I go to buy meetings, I still sometimes post things into my Instagram stories to see what the response is. And if they like, if I get a good response, think, okay, I wasn't sure about that. I'll social, isn't it? I think that's great. can temperature check something in real life, in real time. think that's a really like you say, people are nosy, so they love that. And that makes it more personable to them. They feel like they're involved in it as well, which is good, and they are. Yeah, that's it. Right, thank you so much for that. That's great sound bite for the podcast as well. Right, for this season of the podcast, I've introduced a game at the end called This or That. So it's basically, I'm going to ask you 10 questions and very quickly you have to pick from one of the two answers. Okay. Okay. So try not to think about it too much. Okay. I'll try to make these as specifically related to what it is you do as I can. I didn't stress check this with my other half, which I potentially should have done. Question number one, bright colors or pastels? Bright colors. Two, trendy designs or timeless classics? timeless classics. Footwear focus or clothing focus? Footwear focus. Online shopping or in-store experience? In-store experience. Seasonal collections or year-round staples? Year-round staples. Kid shoes with Velcro or laces? Velcro. Matching outfits for siblings or unique looks? unique looks. I can't believe we're matchy-matchy. I know some people love it, but... You don't have to justify it, it's fine. Eco-friendly fabrics or durable synthetics? eco-friendly. Quick turnaround sales or long-term loyalty? Long-term loyalty, always. Dealing with a toddler's tantrum in store or facing a last-minute stock delivery crisis? Tantrum. Yeah. it's fine. I imagine you have to deal with a few of those. Yeah, do you know what? I don't mind if it's not my own child. Yeah. If it's my kid having a meltdown. separation is really helpful. Yeah, rather not first. think, well, off they go. Brilliant. Well done. You survived that. Okay. Right. And now the last question that you get, and if you've listened to this, If you've listened to any previous episodes, you'll know this, but you get a question from my mum. So this is a tradition that's sticking around for the season three of the podcast. Again, I don't listen to... about this. I tend to be quite nervous because I just don't know what she's going to ask, but I do play it down the microphone just so producer Tom can hear it, but I'll try and make it loud enough. off we go. Hi Gemma. I'm just wondering what's the most expensive pair of children's shoes a parent has asked you to source? Thank you. I'll ask you to source. I don't know if you have the source. So maybe we'll change that question. What's the most expensive pair of children's shoes you've sold? I've got put everybody off from coming in the shop now. No, mean, look, it's mum's question. don't have to answer. the most expensive pair of shoes you've ever sold. They're probably around the 80 pound mark. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. I'd say. Yeah. We could have brands in there that are way more than that. Give me some figures. there's like, well, there's a really lovely children's brand called Pepe. I think they're Italian. Right. And their shoes retail about 150 pounds of pair. Really? Wow. But they'll be, they'll be. brands that way beyond that, depending on how designer issue kind of want to go. But there's a ceiling point. I mean, we try to stock brands that are good quality, are eco-friendly made as possible. whatever materials like chrome free leather and all that kind of thing. there's a ceiling point. yeah, there's been some, there has been some. crazy prices sometimes but yeah nobody's ever asked me to salsa really expensive. you imagine if they come in and we want this brand on the specifically want a pair of shoes that cost £120. I wouldn't put it past some people in there. No true you're right. Gemma thank you so much, really appreciate your been really fun thank you. Thank you, cheers. Thanks for listening to Jobsworth. If you enjoyed this episode, please feel free to give us a follow wherever you listen to your podcasts and while you're there, if you could take two seconds to rate the show, that would be awesome. You can follow Jobsworth on Instagram where you'll get teasers for upcoming episodes, some behind the scenes videos and the occasional bit of career inspiration. And if you'd like to learn more about my day job, then feel free to connect with me on LinkedIn.