The Music Makers

On this weeks episode of JobsWorth, I sat down with Mark Barnacle and Mike Barnes, co-founders of the charity Together in Musical Expression (T.I.M.E). They discuss their early musical influences, the evolution of music consumption, and the therapeutic power of music, especially in relation to memory and emotional well-being. We also learn about their experience of establishing a charity, the challenges they faced in funding, and the importance of purpose in their work. Through their experiences, they highlight how music can bring people together and create meaningful connections. In this conversation, we discus the intricacies of running a charity, emphasising the importance of treating it like a business while also highlighting the personal journeys that led them down this path. They share insights on the impact of music therapy, particularly in dementia care, and the significance of community engagement and breaking down stigmas associated with disabilities.

Takeaways

• Music has the power to change lives.
• Creating a charity requires passion and purpose.
• Community support is vital for charitable organisations.
• Music participation fosters inclusivity and creativity.
• Charities can generate income while making an impact.
• Music therapy significantly benefits dementia patients.
• Breaking down stigmas is essential for inclusivity.
• Hiring for passion can lead to a more impactful team.

Together in Musical Expression (TIME)

Website - https://www.timemusiccharity.com/
Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/timeessex
YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCigFrQXGe_PQk0zIsY_RttQ
Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/timeessex
Email - info@timemusiccharity.com
Video- Holding Onto Those Memories-https://youtu.be/I0UZTe0bfxY

Keywords

music, charity, Together in Musical Expression, mental health, community, music therapy, personal growth, nostalgia, early influences, funding, charity, nonprofit, business, community impact, music therapy, dementia care, fundraising, personal journey, social impact, mental health, inclusive nightclub, community building, funding, charity work, music therapy, social inclusion, hiring practices, outsourcing, sustainability, future goals

The JobsWorth website is here www.jobs-worth.com

Follow me on LinkedIn; https://www.linkedin.com/in/johnhawker/

Follow me on Instagram; https://www.instagram.com/jobsworthpodcast/

Follow me on TikTok; https://www.tiktok.com/@globaltechcollective

Subscribe to my newsletter 'The Job Journal from GTC'; https://tinyurl.com/TheJobJournalFromGTC

Learn more about my proper job; https://www.globaltechcollective.com/

Contact me using hello@jobs-worth.com

Chapters

• 0:00 Introduction
• 2:09 Musical Aspirations and Early Influences
• 5:47 The Evolution of Music Consumption
• 9:55 The Power of Music in Memory and Emotion
• 13:54 The Journey into Music and Therapy
• 21:57 Building a Charity: From Passion to Purpose
• 27:52 Navigating the Challenges of Music and Funding
• 31:01 The Business of Charity: A Learning Journey
• 34:28 From Farming to Charity: A Personal Journey
• 39:15 Transitioning to Full-Time Charity Work
• 50:40 Impact of Music on Dementia Care
• 1:00:18 Breaking Down Stigmas: Connecting Through Music
• 1:02:39 Creating an Inclusive Nightclub Experience
• 1:05:00 Building Community and Independence
• 1:08:30 Navigating Funding and Support
• 1:09:53 Future Aspirations and Growth
• 1:12:17 Hiring for Passion and Impact
• 1:16:54 Outsourcing and Expanding Skill Sets
• 1:19:57 Funding and Sustainability Strategies
• 1:24:02 Upcoming Projects and Community Engagement
• 1:29:43 Lisa's Question

Transcript

0:00

Just to kind of run into it, it's nice. Because people's reactions to this is usually looks like a 15 year old's bedroom with an office in the middle of it. This is exactly like a bedroom, aren't you? You put microphones around everywhere. Welcome to episode 8 of Jobsworth season 3. This week's guests are Mark Barnacle and Mike Barnes, co-founders of Essex-based charity Together in Musical Expression or Time, as they're more commonly known. Along with co-founder Rob Fillory, Mark, Mike and their growing team are on a mission to break down barriers and bring people of all ages and abilities together to experiment, grow and have fun through music. Both of this week's guests discovered a love of music at a young age with bands like Nirvana, The Foo Fighters, The Sex Pistols and many more awakening aspirations of becoming rock stars. Little did they know that years down the line they'd be using their musical talents to provide a service in Essex that is quite literally changing people's lives. the pair's earlier careers including Mark's experience working in the care and education sectors, explore what life was like for Mike growing up and working on his family's farm and learn about how they first met and forged a successful partnership they have today. We also talk about knowing when it's the right time to make the permanent transition away from your day job and invest all your energy into something new as well as getting some really useful info into setting up a charity. Definitely worth a listen if you're on the fence about taking the leap and starting your own thing. A few weeks ago Time celebrated their 10 year anniversary. It's quite the milestone, but a look at some of the projects they've been involved with within the local community and you'll come to the same conclusion as me. They're just getting started. So without further ado, let me introduce you to two musical maestros who have become rock stars in their own right, Mark and Mike. I'm going to start with this question that we open every podcast episode with and Mike, you're making eye contact with me, I'm going to start with you. So I apologize. But when you were younger, What did you want to be when you grew up? it sounds really cheesy and typical, but I wanted to be a rock star when I grew up. When I was like sort of 12, 13. Yeah. think, I think I remember seeing back in the day, yeah, Paramore was my first, first gig. And then I think shortly after that, saw Food Fighters Live for the first time. So that was my first like two gigs. And I think the Food Fighters one in particular, was just like enamored by Dave Grohl. And I was like, I want to do that. And watching like Taylor Hawkins on the drums as well. That was just, yeah, like so inspiring to me at the time. The way that those like shows made me feel was like, man, like never felt like anything like it before. And I was like, I just want to do that one and make people feel that. How old were you? Do you remember how old you were when you were like seeing Paramore or you're making me feel old, Mike. Cause I remember Paramore at college and I was just like, I was into that kind of music. that the same sort of thing? we're probably a similar sort of age. Okay. Yeah. But do you mind me asking how old you are? Yeah. So I think I was about 12 at the time. About 13. So yeah, like. Yeah, probably not the best music taste at that age, but that's, but they're this kind of, like that's, think when a lot of people start to really like get into music and they find, I dunno, like a band or a style of music that really starts to resonate with you rather than just listening to like your mum's mum's CDs and what your mum bought you for your birthday. I remember that vividly. was all the Now albums. Yeah. A lot of wet, wet. take that. Yeah. I remember that, but yeah, you develop your own taste and then. I vividly remember listening to like Tenacious D for the first time. just being like, music can be like that. Like real storytelling and it's very different genre, I I remember watching that music video for Tribute. MTV and The Dragon's Day used be massive, didn't they? And we're watching that video over and over again. Absolutely loved them at the time. Yeah. Cool. Okay. Well, the reason I asked that... question at the start is to see how it links to what it is you're doing now. obviously music at that time was a big focus for you and then continued to be, which we'll touch upon in a second. But Mark, when you were younger, what did you want to be when you grew up? So I didn't really get a clear image until I really discovered music and was shown how to play the guitar and was shown Nirvana. That was the first thing that really made me, similar thing, think I'm going to be in a band and I'm going to do that. Because before that, like my dad's... I had so many different jobs, but he always worked for himself and he was like a market trader. He had a fruit and veg store. We'd do net curtains. He had a secondhand shop for a while. do like house clearances. He started picking up tires at some point from like Belgium and France. So I just always, and I'd go and work with him at the weekends. And I'd go and do stuff with him. So I just, I just had that in my head from like sort of junior age. I just remember thinking, I'll just do something like that. It sounded like was a guy that, if you had to think of the epitome of Jack of all trades, is that the kind of description? I don't mean that in a negative way, but yeah, it sounds like he's got lot of plates spinning. really enjoyed seeing that as well. He'd always have his little book that he's scribbling stuff down and his little bureau that he'd have things tucked away and he's like, little money bag for the markets and I'd have a little one as well, know, that would go there. It was probably, it was a bit kind of Del Boy-esque, the sort of upbringing like that, a garage full of random stuff. Yeah. But yeah, and he'd give me like, I'd set up little stalls on the market, you know, so if he was doing like these kind of antique bits or house clearances, I'd like pick a few things and I'd have that down the end and that'd be my little thing that I'd be selling for the day on the market and teaching me little slogans and things to say. And it was, was great, man. So I just kind of, I think my earliest memories of work was that, just seeing my dad get up and do all these different things. So I kind of envisaged a life like that. And then, I was shown Nirvana as a 12 year old. And then I was like, I just need to do something in music. That was when I had this clear image of I just want to be doing something in music, which when you're that age, it's like, yeah, I'm going to be a rock star. I'm going to be in a band. I'm going go and do that, play guitar, which gradually evolves into other things. Do you think speaking to a lot of kids at that age now, do you think that is still the case when they're 11, 12, 13, they aspire to be? rock star, especially if it's that kind of music, I guess, isn't it? That you're listening to. Do you think it's still okay? I think it's moulded and changed a bit. think people like, least a lot of the young people I work with are sort of more into their rappers and stuff now. I don't know if that, don't if it's generalised, but yeah, a lot of them tend to say things like that. I think social media has had a big influence as well in like what we've seen that children and young people seem to want to aspire to. That's a good point. I think that is a really good point. It's a fear for me as a parent now with a six and three year old son. what that turns into by the time they get onto social media, which is obviously a very hot topic at the moment anyway. But yeah, I can imagine that it has evolved and morphed as music has changed too. Yeah. I wonder if they see those kind of pop stars, rock stars as like influencers rather than kind of living that musician life. Whereas before you'd have a CD sleeve or whatever, you know, and you'd hear them on the radio and you'd have posters on your wall. Now you've got your TikTok feed and you're seeing them like market stuff and building their brand. And that's a great point. Yeah. We've got that connection to rock stars. like we never had, I don't know, 20 odd years ago. when yeah, posters, yeah, posters on walls, CD sleeves, looking at lyrics. Just getting excited about getting an album for the first time and pulling the sleeves out and looking at the physical, a physical copy, which is why I'm now gone into vinyl again, because I just love having a physical copy of something. And the technology still blows my mind. More than streaming, seeing a needle hit a vinyl and music play, I can't get my head around that. It's crazy, isn't it? Streaming is just so commonplace. Watching that. is crazy to me. Yeah. And I feel like, yeah, I don't want to sound really old. As soon as we start talking, I should be like, yeah. I think we're hitting the demographic of the podcast. Yeah. I think you're so right. feel like we're so, like we're sort of drowning in content, I think these days, and particularly like, yeah, it's saying from celebrities or people you follow or bands or wherever it is, it feels like you just have sort of. so much access to everything about them. Whereas it used to be like the only things you sort of have were these tangible CDs or like the odd interview, like the interview with your favorite artists would feel like quite few and far between, you know, and like you'd cling onto more of these little things and they'd be more important. Whereas now, like if you're not, if a celebrity isn't uploading like 10 times a day, their PR team's like, what are you doing? You're not uploading enough stuff. And it's sort of, yeah, we've got so much content now. It's hard to know what, what to sort of focus around. I know, I know when I was at college, was NME magazine and you'd grab NME and just like you're back, the band that you love would be on it and you'd read that interview. And that might be the only interview they do for a year, 18 months, two years. And you would just treasure that copy of NME. You treasure the CD and you just play that CD on repeat. I wasn't driving when cassettes were the only way you could listen to music. I hear about like, speak to, speak to my parents and and literally just over and over and over again a cassette going in, whereas now the whole world is accessible in buttons very quickly. totally man. On that note of sort of having that sort of tangible thing and physical records, I remember the first time I discovered a hidden track on a CD. leaving my room after, and if you get to bang on about Nirvana again, but it was Nevermind and I just thought it just finished and then this big noise just erupted out of my bedroom. wow. I thought, is that? Where's that come from? Run in the bedroom and the tracks on like 13 minutes or whatever. And you're like, this hidden... I didn't even know that was a thing. So then I was like, as soon as it finished, I grabbed like Queens of the Stone Age. It just went to the last track. Will you just let... Did that lead to a lot of disappointment though, A lot of just radio silence after. Mark's just sitting in his room again listening to... Is he alright? It makes for this kind of like, almost like legendary, like mythical kind of like feelings, doesn't it? It's like secret things. I think that's so cool. It's experiential, isn't it? Like you've just got more to it than what we're experiencing now. But I don't, I really don't want to make myself sound really old, but it's nice. I think... there's nostalgia and that's not a bad thing to talk about. Massively. And it is specific, I think, to generations and equally the sort of younger generation, as much as we don't sort of see it, there'll be things that they have. do you remember this like TikTok thing? I sound well, would say that. there'll be something like that, that only grows with their generation and they'll be like, do remember this? So think, yeah, it's important to like, you know, that everyone has their own, their own. things they clung to and things they're going to remember really fondly. We'll talk about the project you do as part of your charity as well, but the one that me and my other half were just sobbing over yesterday was the work you did with people with early onset dementia. So we're talking about memories, we're talking about that nostalgia, that. Having those conversations with people that are on the precipice of potentially losing those memories or losing the ability to... pick out those memories as readily as they have done previously. I think it's just lovely, the nostalgia chat. Totally, totally. And on that note, that was such a powerful thing to conduct in that environment because a lot of the sessions we do is about music participation, it's inclusive, we want to make music accessible and make people realise everyone's got something to contribute, know, like some form of unique creative expression. And then when you work within dementia, obviously a lot of the time you will play... Buddy Holly, Elvis Presley, Sweet Caroline. You go for these really familiar songs that spark this something in someone and they will start discussing their upbringing, where they grew up in the East End or when they got married. And the idea of songwriting was like, how's this going to work? Cause you're recalling a very recent memory where they're one choose, they will see you next week and do you remember that chorus? And it blew us away because the amount of people that that would soak in, once you started the cool progression or you played something familiar or you started to speak about it, you'd see so much come flooding back. And everyone you saw in that video, is living with that condition, know, various stages and that is their contribution, a lyric that meant something important to them. And I think you said a beautiful thing, was no coincidence that they would say stuff like, my first child being born, know, or walks on the beach, these like real, just pure natural things, not about how much money you don't or whatever, just really lovely, heartwarming moments. It was amazing. And it's the lesson I think that a lot of people in the latter parts of their life are trying to teach everyone that just feels like we're rushing around like headless chickens trying to climb up the next rung of the ladder, is, you and you roll your eyes at it a lot of the time. Advice from your parents is always like, and then you see it happening and you're like, shit, I should have listened to that. But it's like slow down because it's... the material stuff isn't going to be the stuff that you look back on. Every memory in that song, which we will talk about in little more detail later on, is an experience. is a relational thing with a human being as opposed to, remember when I bought my first house. I've got this great car. I was talking about Even if, like, if you were to think to yourself, right, if the world were to end tomorrow, if you had to look back on your life, as it is, what, would you, what are your most treasured memories? I guarantee all of us here would say similar things like first child being born or like, getting married or whatever it is. It's those sort of like simple everyday things that, are the most important. yeah, like being able to speak to someone at the end of their life, knowing that they, you know, they haven't got loads of time ahead of them and they're confirming these things like, it's just about. going for. We need to listen to that. Yeah, exactly. Take it as a listen and go forward with it. So we talked, but both of you then seem to have similar ages, 12 ish years old, you've seen a band, you've kept that band has resonated, connected with you deeply and you thought I need to be doing something with music. Mike, tell me then, from 12 year old Mike that sees listeners to Paramore or whatever bands you were listening to at the time, what do you do? How does that route into music start then? So for me, was a matter of just getting into bands as soon as I could. Well, it first starts with learning an instrument. So I'm going to break this down a little bit and interject at points. What was the instrument you chose to pick up? So I started on the drums. my mom and dad were in bands ever since I was young. My dad played guitar, mom played bass. felt like at that point I was like, kind of want to do something. something a little bit different to start. so yeah, I started picking up the drums. my mom very kindly got me an electric drum kit for one Christmas and even more kindly let me play in the house because it must've drove her absolutely mad, man. Like I know it's an electric kit, just the tapping that run through the house must've been so annoying. so yeah, I just learned over like the course of like two or three years, in that sort of time as well, but with my dad. and I'm playing guitar, there's just guitars around the house. So I've started to pick them up and trying to pick out songs and learn little chords and stuff like that. then that drew me into, yeah, joining a band at school. I had some friends that played guitar and sung and stuff like that. So we sort of brought a band together. And yeah, we just sort of like, you just get older, you get a little bit better. write some songs, record some songs, start to get your first couple of gigs and that, just sort of like, yeah, carried on like that. And I just found a lot of solace in doing music. at the time, specifically, as I got a little bit older towards sort of like 15, 16, where like, I don't know, your self image is so like the most important thing in your life and your relationships with other people become very important. Like I started to experience a massive amount of anxiety. Really, really struggled when I was younger. And ended up with, you know, every time I went into school, I remember like for about a year, most days I'd have like a panic attack at school. I'm getting really, really bad. And one of the things that proper helped me sort of get through that was, was playing music as cheesy as it sounds. I remember like the first sort of big gig I had where it was more than like my parents, you know, like I remember we played the Rayleigh mill. And at the time it was a big scene and there was probably like a hundred odd people there, maybe more. so it felt like a really big deal to 15 year old Mike. And I remember feeling super anxious before all these sort of same feelings that I'd have at school came over me. And I remember like in the second song, just being able to shed all of that anxiety and worry. And I just completely lost myself in the, in the music. And I think particularly drums as well, cause it's such a physical thing. You just, your whole body is like lost to the kind of music. Again, as cheesy as that sounds, but it's so true. And I found myself just, yeah, reflecting on it and being like, for that last half an hour, I'm in of all these people in a place that I'd normally feel awful and so anxious and so worked up. And I've just been able to just completely lose myself in this thing. And I think that's the first sort of thing, sort of clicked to my mind as to like, music can like genuinely really help people sort of. offering this big therapeutic benefit and that was one of the seeds that sort of started and got me into working with time. you realised that in hindsight or did, I love it, we're referring to 15 year old Mike, 15 year old Mike, you realise it at that time, the kind of therapeutic angle of it or is this in hindsight? I'm thinking about myself at 15, maybe I just didn't have that kind of experience to relate it back to, but did you realise, did it? kind of hit you at that point. Yeah, I think the initial seed of it did. I don't think I was aware of the sort of wider implications Maybe it would have been hard to articulate it too at that point. yeah, it's difficult thing to do. Yeah, and I think, but just that, yeah, that initial thing of, I normally get really anxious, but in this frame, I can, can leave myself of that anxiety and that pain through doing something like music. And I just found that really interesting. yeah, yeah, it's amazing. It kind of connects with what Mark was saying when you, when you sort of get up on a stage and you've got your guitar and that's kind of like a way of channeling like this confidence or I think some, some people might listen to that and go like, the first thing that came into my head was like, you can hide behind a guitar in a way, but that's not, that's not what you're talking about and understand that, but it's a way to channel something, isn't it? Like that instrument is a way of you channeling something. So talk to me about your kind of. journey, that evolution from again, 12-year-old Mark, Mark when you were 12, getting into music and exploring that further. Did you have musical influences around you like Mike did? So there was music in the house a lot, was music in the house. When you were listening to some bands earlier, it did make me think of what my dad's household would be like. And I was going to throw Simply Red into the mix there. definitely. but you have to kind of acknowledge the stuff you have when you're growing up. But yeah, my dad would listen to stuff like that, Rod Stewart. But then he loved like Madness and The Specials. And my mom dad separated, I'd be with my dad's at the weekend. And then at home with my mom, it was more... Like Fleetwood Mac, Eva Cassidy, a lot of Madonna. I definitely have like, yeah. It's eclectic though, you're getting like, yeah, exposure So there wasn't like lot of like heavier music. I ska was the sort of avenue into guitars potentially, but I didn't realise at that point. And then when my mum met someone else who she still with, and yeah, I just refer to as my dad as well. He's a great guy and he started playing me things like Waterboys, Sex Pistols and Nirvana. Nirvana was the first thing he was like, have you ever heard this? And I just remember that CD, it sounds crazy, but remember that CD going in, because it was just such a pivotal point in my life. And it was like it, when people talk about something washing over you, he's just like, man, just had this feeling of like, this is, I just got to do something with this, this is just incredible. Listen to the whole record. And then was a few days later, we used to do these things where the family would come over and we'd put like a projector on and they'd play like all these old slides. And my stepdad... And he got his old battered guitar out of the loft and my uncle taught me how to play James Bond. And I just sat in the corner of the room just playing this all night trying to get it right. And then he was in a band, my uncle, so I went and watched them all in the space of about a week or so this happened. And then they recommended a guy called Joe Hymas, who's just like this famous guy in Basildon, just an incredible character. Pretty much everyone in Basildon who played guitar learned from him. And then about a week later I went to see him and that was it. I was just immersed in guitar. Just hooked. Yeah, just totally hooked. And similar to Mike, started to form like a little band at school and then joined a band I was in for a long time when I was about 16. And then my mum was working in an SCN school and she invited me along to do a music session when I was like 19. And I was like, can't sing. I couldn't sing then, I still can't sing now. But I was like, what can I do? And I just went along with this guitar, played a few songs, started to pass instruments around and it just opened up this whole other world of like... communication through music and feeling vibrations. And some of the kids there just put their ears on the, body of the guitar. I had a violin with me and they'd hold the bow and it was just like, man, all these things you can do with music. So sort of touching on, sorry if I've gone off a bit off subject there, touching on what you said for me, it just gave me this like wealth of confidence within music. Like most 15, 12 year olds, all that sort of stuff struggled with other sort of confidences elsewhere. that was just like, yeah, if I had music around me, I felt really good. And then to see, that was the first time I saw. what it was doing to other people and how you could facilitate that and then open other people up to the possibilities of what music participation and just being around it can do to you. And at 19, again, did you connect the dots? Did you ever... What was the time span between 19 and then when you set up the charity, if you don't mind me asking? How long between those points? we've just celebrated 10 years of when we registered time. Congratulations guys, that's a massive milestone. Obviously when we registered we were still in the process of, we might touch on later, but reducing our other hours in other jobs. So I was 28 when we registered from 19 to 28. I would like teach guitar. I'd go to my mom's school once a week, most weeks in term time. And a guy I was doing music with would come along. So it was quite loose, but I was like, I really enjoy doing this. But I still had those, I guess your rock star eyes on where it was like all about the band. That was the most important thing. Just be in the band, be at the studio as much as you can, gig as much as you can, try and push it. But teach a bit of guitar, go to the school, work in studios, you know, just kind of like ad hoc stuff here and there. but then gradually I was like, I want to do this more and more. I met another guy called Rob. who runs time with us and we decided to launch it. then shortly after we met Mike, just as all that was coming together. So that nine years in between was, it was there and I was always working within sort of disability and SEM, but it wasn't the focus, but I was aware of the difference it could make. that's, yeah. And again, cause I'm thinking of myself at 19 and I was, so my mum's a, who comes up on the podcast too much, but she's featured in the podcast, which we'll talk about later. But I was doing some work with my mum. like as late teens, early twenties and doing workshops, she's a ceramicist. So we used to do clay, artwork with clay. some of that was at SENS schools and seeing again how getting your hands on something tactile and it would just transform people's experience. And that was really great. But at 19, I don't necessarily think it, I appreciated what I was around and what I was experiencing as much as I do now looking back at it in hindsight. So yeah, I was just wondering from 19, what's the gap then to going to actually realise that the charity is being set up? Because you still, know, 19 is like a formative time. You're working out who you are, let alone the impact you can make for other people. But that's just lovely that you carried that on. It's a big leap, isn't it, from going to say, I want to be a rock star, which again, and also sticking with something as a going for your teens and sticking with an instrument. So I have tried to learn to play guitar. I've had piano lessons. My brother had a drum kit. He had a trombone. We don't play any of that now. But at the time we were like, mom, please can I have this? And you do need something about you, whether it's real passion for that, whether it's music or specifically that instrument, you need some stickability, don't you? You need the consistency to do it. Do you think you can learn that? Do you think you had forces around you? pushing you to do it or is that just an innate thing? Were you born with something that thought, that's it, I just need to keep going at this? I think it's a combination of things. think, like we speaking about, I think we both have such a passion for music anyway and resonate with it so much anyway that I think it's always, I don't know, it's always just sort of been impossible to kind of like detach at least myself from like, if I've got a guitar sitting in my living room and almost every day can't help myself just pick it up. It's just kind of like a... I don't know, instinctive. It's just kind of like just kind of part and parcel of your life. Even if it's in a small way like that, you're just picking up your guitar for like five minutes every day. Or always just listening to new bands or records or going to live shows or anything. think a lot of people do that. A lot of people are just always into music. It's just in a slightly different frame. But I think the working with time, I think is what's really cemented at least my sort of connection with music, playing an instrument and stuff like that. think cause Well, I got involved with this sort of with time in its infancy before it was a registered company when I was 19. And at that time, well, we, Mark and Rob had set up this like weekly group for anyone with additional needs to come along and just make music. It was, there was no sort of like, yeah, you could just come, whoever you were, whatever background you were, and you could come and make music with, with Mark and Rob. And I started volunteering with them. And I think after the first or second time I came along, I was just like, this is absolutely sick. This is just like, I just need to be doing something like this as much as possible. It's just, I just love it. It's all so much in it. And I think it gave much more purpose to like being involved with music, playing a guitar than just doing it for myself. And as much as I still, you know, I still had that dream of wanting to be in a band and be a rock star and stuff. suddenly it was like, there's like a real purpose to this. And I found like, yeah, this, this place of belonging within that. So I think to have a group to go along to, once, once, twice a week, really start to drill in music into my life in a more permanent kind of way. it just, just, grown from then, you know, but purpose is a word that comes up a lot on the podcast. definitely when I'm speaking to people in my day job, talking about careers and finding a job that gives you purpose. think that's what everyone is fundamentally searching for in what they do for a living. And if what you do for a living can then help the greater good too, and society, community, then you're onto a winner, aren't you? How do you go about making money, not as the charity, but as individuals that want to do something in music? mean, Mark, you've kind of given a bit of an insight there. You do a lot of jobs. You are keeping plates spinning in various different ways, but it's a long stretch to go from I want to get into music, I want to do something with it and then paying the bills. So before the charity then, what, Mark, we'll start with you, but what were you doing to make ends meet? Yes. It was exactly like you say there, as from as young as I can remember or entering this kind of work space, it was always multiple jobs. And as you're coming towards the end of your twenties, you're like, I need to solidify something a little bit. It's the decade thing, isn't it? It's thirties on the horizon. Where am I at? I forgot my shit together. I was really enjoying it and I sort of tried to always find a good balance of music and sort of if I was going to have another profession, something that I felt again, that had a bit of purpose. So yeah, I've always thought of a guitar on the side. I was working in schools. I would have like part-time LSA jobs. I worked in homeless hostels around Greys for quite a while. And then that led to a bit more sort of one-to-one care work. to support with housing schemes and do like a couple of days there where you'd help people with sort of access to community and build independence. But there was always like two days or I'd have a contract for, you know, X amount of hours or I'd be on the bank work so I could pick up shifts here and there. So I had a studio in Leighton that we would have bands in to rehearse and record. So you'd do more at the weekends then. Do a little bit like session work for people, a little bit of guitar here and there, go and play for people and earn a few quid, you know, guitar wise. It was just always... Yeah, there's mishmash of things, but I liked that. Your diary each week was always different. But then, yeah, like Mike touched on meeting Rob and obviously then meeting Mike was a real big turning point of like, I think we could do this on more of a full-time basis. And because Rob had a similar situation, but he was doing a lot of art in the community with a local disability art group. We were like, well, if we just start with this dropping and we keep our hours going, like we have in another domain, we can gradually reduce those as we start to pick in, pick up more sessions. Just picking up what you saying price wise, like it was hard to start charging people because with this sort of thing, especially working within disability, dementia, it's a sector that's so deprived of funds. So you want to sort of show value and you know how important music is, but you don't want to go, well, if you can't afford it, we're not coming. So a lot of the stuff we did initially was like freebies or really sort of just about making ends meet to cover the cost. I won't jump too far ahead with it, but that's eventually why the charity came around because to have that funding in place, it's much harder to get the funding as a limited company, which we was initially and still are. The charity helped out a lot. So yeah, it was a tough one, hard to set your prices, hard to say no to people. But by gradually being able to leave our other hours, have the backbone of some sort of income. I think that was really important so we could go and do these voluntary sessions, build these contacts. And a lot of the time, once you go into a home, you deliver that session, they see the impact that it has. They're like, right, we're going to fundraise. much, how much, you know, and a lot of people say we'd say a price and they'd be like, your prices are too low. So these people, cause they're working in this sector for the right reasons as well. Do you know what mean? They're like, they want us to do well. So they'll be like, look, how can we help you? So we had a lot of, we're probably too polite at times and then people, you know, sort of really nice to us and just that kind of community feel you sort of build the backbone of it and then go from there. That's learning though, isn't it? Whether you're running a business. running a charity, you have to learn and you guys hadn't done this before. Yeah. And this is last 10 years have just been a massive learning experience really. And we're still like all the time learning about all aspects of business and how to run things properly. And then that's the thing is although a charity is a charity and it's a nonprofit sort of organization. It still has to run a little bit like a business. If you're not running it like efficiently, it doesn't work. like, just like a visit. It's just charries are still businesses. They just got a different kind of framework. They just work a little bit differently. And I think this is another like misconception when I talked to people about it. And I don't mean to sound shady by saying this, but like you, not everyone that works for charities does it for free. Like you get paid for doing it given we're not earning, you know, loads of money. We're not. yeah, we're not earning nearly as much as say like someone who starts a limited company, just really successfully, but it's like Mark said, it's getting the bills paid and we're able to get by. and yeah, I thought that's, that's something important. want people to know is that you can start a charity or nonprofit, you can earn money from it and make a really, big impact on your, on a community or a group. You don't have to always go down a business route of how do I sell a product or how do I, you know, That's a really good point to make Mike. So thank you for that. my understanding of the mechanics of how charity is run. mean, Katie from Gold Geese Open Mind is a little more to that through the conversation I had with her and conversations we've had outside of that podcast episode too. But I think that's a really, really lovely point to make is that if you have something that you want to put out into the world, it doesn't have to purely be a money making enterprise. If you can give back to the community, give back to society in some way, shape or form, then that's a route to explore. But also, I think there's this, it's not a stigma, but it's a preconception that everyone that was working for charity is doing it altruistically. So it's like it's completely, I'm going to give up all of my time, but you can't. If you really want to give all of your time into it, we all pay bills. We've all got mortgages, rent, whatever it is. Yeah, you need to be making something from it. Well, this is it. You look at really vital services like hospices. A lot of hospices are charities. They're on paper, non-profit, but you can't operate something as intricate and as professional as a hospice on just volunteer work. just doesn't... doesn't work like that. You've got to pay people for their time and it unfortunately needs money to run. Again, given like you're not the CEOs and the managers aren't necessarily going to be on the same money as those in private sectors. again, there's people that are making livings, working in hospices or working for charities. yeah, it's just going to be more scrutinized. you have to preface that you have to have a board of trustees that run the company. They are the top dogs and they can't be paid. They must do it in a voluntary. basis. However, yeah, the people that work for the company, yeah, can be paid. need to earn a living, don't you? Yeah, exactly. Talk to me then, Mike, just quickly, because I've asked Mark, how are you making, how are you making ends meet? How are you making money before this became like the full time endeavor that it is now? So yeah, I got a bit of a weird career. I still run this, I grew up and run a family farm. So I, this is one of the things I picked out of the YouTube. video that I watched on you and I did want to explore that further. So thank you for bringing that up. So was wondering how the hell do I squeeze this in? you point out, so go for it. Yeah. yeah, just really briefly, I grew up on a family farm in Rayleigh. My grandfather, it used to be homeless and he worked his way up renting land, making a bit of profit, getting a bit lucky here and there. He eventually bought his own farm and then expanded it a bit. yeah, I just sort of grew up. He was a big inspiration to me. Wow. similar to sort of Mark. remember going around like going around Maldon market, with like a van of potatoes. used to go and sell potatoes on the weekend and like drop off big bags to people's doors and that. And I remember being in the fields when I was like, it must've been like nine or eight on like potato harvesters, like checking out these like ranked potatoes from this big harvester thing. and driving forklifts as a little 10 year old. an experience though. sounds like such a great thing to have had as part of your childhood. it's beautiful. And then to sort of grow up in the countryside like that was amazing and to have sort of a little bit of space you can call your own. Do you mind me asking? Because I grew up in Rayleigh. But where in Rayleigh was the farm? So it's down the end of Bull Lane. OK. There's this sort of like... looks like a private road sort of like I it well I had a friend I won't name him but I a friend with a house right and it was the last house before you went up that private road right no way and I do I maybe maybe it was your grandad but I remember me and my brother being in that field as kids and being chased out of the field. What a small world, do you remember that vividly? He had a picture up of you for ages. Have you seen this guy? But yeah, what a small world. I had to ask because I grew up in Raley so I was just wondering where that was. It was lovely, fields for just, I mean... The landscape is just, mold again. The landscape has changed a lot, but yeah, it was just such a lovely, a lovely part of, of Reilly's. Yeah, Yeah. It's been, it's linked all up to Hodgley Woods now. It's obviously like prehistoric woodland. So yeah, it was beautiful to grow up in a place like that. And as much as it's, it was an amazing place to grow up and I love being involved with it. Still am involved with it. Still run it with my family and stuff. It's amazing. It's a very isolated job, I think, particularly in the last like 20, 30 years, like. What used to be you go out with all your mates and harvest the fields and what my granddad used to do, it's now like you just sat in a tractor all day on your own. So I think that's what led me to doing stuff with time was I just was on my own all day in this tractor in the cold and the rain. I wanted to be a rock star and I wanted to do music and I didn't have that sort of outlet. And then, yeah, my sister knew Rob at the time and she was like, they've got this really cool like inclusive, dropping a thing they doing in Basildon. You should come along one time. And then, yeah, like I said, after two sessions with Rob and Mark, I was just like, this is amazing. I need to be more involved with this kind of thing. I need to do it more. So that's how it started. Kind of all bedded in from there. So that's obviously how you two met. So what's the chronology from you go to the first session or the first couple of sessions, and then you start to decide, okay, we're doing what we're doing to make, to make a living at the moment. How do we make this shift from this where we are now to then going full time with the charity? And that's a hard question. No, it's cool. It's good to talk, man. It's nice to reflect on that, especially with a 10 year anniversary coming up. We have these conversations quite lot. It's been beautiful to be at this point. We feel very, very lucky. So Rob was in a bit of tricky situation because he was running the art community service that he had with a couple other people that he'd known for a long, long time. and we'd reached this point where we were doing sort of music sessions under their umbrella sometimes with these drop-ins, but yeah, we had a sort of a little bit of a disagreement how it, how it would be set up and delivered. so we just had to make a bit of a decision where I was like, well, I feel we can, we can make this more of a full-time thing. He would need to take a bit of a leap if he wanted to do it as well. We was obviously getting to know Mike really well and was just blown away by what he brought to the room and his enthusiasm and youth as well. And we just made that decision to go, okay, well, we can survive on what we're earning from our other jobs at the moment. If we gradually reduce those hours while we pick up sessions, let's see if we can slowly turn this into a full-time thing. And over the course of about two years, that's what we did. We, we spoke to a lot of care homes. We would do the old sort of school door to door talking to people, ringing them. You'd get a lot of, yeah, we'll ring you back activity coordinator. We'll get back to you. And they wouldn't, we just persevere, get some flyers made up, carry on running that drop in. I obviously, I'd done a bit of work within sort of local care homes or schools. So I'd go back to those people and say, look, we're running a music service. Now do you want a free session? Just, just getting by for a while until eventually we had three or four days where we were out doing music sessions every day. you sort of touched on earlier, you just, if someone's sort of parachute parachute you in now to run in this organization and running the charity, it would seem so overwhelming. And we get people ask us, how'd you get to that point? And how do you sort of manage your finances and learn about cash flows or whatever, all this admin that comes with it. It's like you just did it step by step because we had no other way. Just something would come around or you'd hit a certain milestone with income or a door would close on funding and you need to find something else and you just learn about it. And I think because we always had those lives where we was used to going, okay, I've got a couple of hours here. I'm going to pick up a bit more guitar work. I know that person in the studio, I can go and do that. We just, just, just got by until suddenly you look back and go, we've been doing this for a couple of years now, like full time, you know, and you meet with your accountant and it goes up a little bit and you can kind of. breathe a little bit more and you can go to a few more services, buy some new equipment. I remember when we used to have like printed out sheets because we couldn't afford an iPad, you know, so we'd have these song sheets on this music stand and obviously some schools you go to the kids are grabbing them and running off and you're halfway through a song you haven't quite learned properly. What call does it go to? And they're like, right, we've got enough money to buy an iPad. Right. Let's do that. That makes a lot more sense. And just always been this, this gradual progression. then it was four years ago that we, managed to get the charity number, which, you know, was a whole new journey that we're still learning about all the time, but gave another, not quite security, because you really have to be on the ball with it, another kind of option to bring on more It's a different chapter, isn't it? And it comes with its own, I guess, bureaucracy. comes with things that you have to, there's more stringent things that you have boxes you have to check, putting a lot more things in place. But it's like the evolution of something. it's right, the service you're providing with the impact you're making should be something that is is funded. I'm going to talk to you about how you fundraise, how you make money for the service too a little bit later on. But yeah, was it scary when you, it sounds like it was a very kind of like the transition wasn't just one day you switched everything off and then you were just full time in it. It sounds like it was a nice kind of transition over time. And then before you knew it, you were like, wait a minute, are we doing, was it as simple as are we doing this? Like, is this our full time thing now? Yeah, I think there was a realisation where I was like, I've not sort of worried about having to pick up a lot of other work at the moment. My diary is suddenly really busy with these things that I'm loving doing. So to have that realisation was great. What a beautiful feeling. there was nothing, you have like your overwhelming days and weeks and things that are like, how are we going to learn this new system on this new thing that we've got to do or deliver this big project? But again, if you was parachuted into it halfway through on now. it would seem very daunting, but because there was a team of us that were really like-minded, really had a similar goal, know, places we wanted to be and things we wanted to do, we always had that support from each other. you mentioned Katie, you know, just the people like that that you get to know in the community. Like I grew up in Basel and I didn't move to Leeds until I was, well, about eight years ago, so I was 30. But then my wife knew of Katie, so then you get talking to her and we was going to try and do the charity thing. She told me a bit about trustees and AGMs and like just getting that going. And finally just being out there and talking to people and learning from them was one of the best things we've done really. put yourself out there. It's a very, I guess it's a similar journey in terms of setting up the charity with Katie in that she's gone through an experience and then seen, guess in her... in her scenario, she's seen what was lacking in terms of support out there too, but she's gone and set up that charity and learning as she goes. She didn't know what she was doing by her own admission and then to build that as well. Same as building a business. And I guess is a really good point. I'll highlight maybe the lesson for anyone listening to this that is on the fence about doing something themselves or going it alone, whether it's business charity, is that you cannot have the expectation that you should know everything before you do it. It is completely unrealistic that you are going to have your shit together completely to say, now I'm confident. think, yeah, you've really got to take it just one day at a time. And it's just tiny, tiny little incremental improvements over time. Like we just, we just have a meeting, all three of us every week and we seem to always find like loads of things to talk about. And as, as much as, yeah, like it feels like I'm not a big deal. when you add them all up over the course of a year, all those little meetings or those little admin days, like you look back over the course of a year and you're like, actually we've done loads of stuff. But yeah, like I say, we never had any sort of like business training or like never had any experience starting a charity or properly running a business. I think both of us had that from the stories you said about my grandfather and your father, running their own thing and trying to sort of scrap together what they could and like trying to. make something work and seeing that process. I think we've both got a similar thing like that we really like watching, building something. drive and that ethic comes from somewhere, doesn't it? ethic has come from those experiences. Similar to myself, I don't need to be working for myself, but I've seen my mum be self-employed since I was a baby. And that's all really all I know. I've struggled to be in a, I think I'd struggle if I just sat there and what, it just worked. work for other people and they tell you what to do and you've got no autonomy or freedom to go and do that. There is something to be said from the experiences of what you are privy to when you're growing up, clearly, but I do think it does change that work ethic and that internal drive that you've got. definitely. Okay, so 10 year anniversary is a big deal. Was I sat in the hatch when you took your selfie? I think I spoke to someone that morning and I saw you guys and Rob, Rob must have been there, right? Yeah. Cause I obviously, I met you guys by chance at the hatch. I'm still trying to get Ralph on. the guy that the hatch. Yeah. I spoke to him. Ralph, if you're listening to this, you've got to come on. basically a lot of the people that now on the podcast, I meet at the We've overheard some conversations about recruiting and hiring people. I'm going to ask now, have you, have you hired someone now? Yeah. funny enough in that, that selfie we took with you in the background was our new member of staff. was wondering if that was, if that was the guy that had joined. Well, congratulations. Cause this is the first person that you've had to hire externally to you guys or if there've been others over there. over the years? Yeah, we've had others. We had an amazing girl called Emily come and work with us for about a year and a half, two years. she was more like, her place was funded for her first six months with a group called Creative Estuary. And so she came in like, unexperienced and she was amazing. Yeah, wow. That was the first time we'd employed someone completely separated from like just our friends or people we met. So like, so yeah, she unfortunately left us at the beginning of the year. and we, yeah, we identified that we definitely needed to fill her, fill her boots with someone else. And that got us onto this journey of, employing our member staff, And who weirdly enough, we first met at the hatch and like, I know just like yourself, like we were there talking about time and this guy just came over and he was like, sorry to bother you. just heard you talking about this music chariot. sounds really cool. Like, can I just ask what that's about? And he chatting and he ends up sort of volunteering with us for a little bit. And then we did go through the formal interview process and we got, we're really, really lucky with we've got 20 people or 19 people apply to the, to the job. we interviewed five people who were all amazing, genuinely incredible. and we would have happily taken any single one of them. but yeah, this, this David just sort of went above and beyond. yeah, the fact that he came over and introduced himself and made himself known and got involved outside of the job process, just spoke, spoke so many, spoke many words. that's brilliant. Well, congratulations. Cause that's, that's a big deal going through the whole hiring process. And it's also, it also is a great lesson in the power of networking, isn't it? And just being, being out and about, especially in these, like, I would call it, Ralph isn't going to like this, but I call it a community hub, hatch. flow of people through there is incredible. And all you need is just that little bit of confidence to go, guys, or like say hello or shake hands, whatever it is. I've done it to a few people now. I've made it very clear to you guys, I wasn't asking because I wanted to do the hiring for you. I was just like, maybe I can help. And I think that's a really lovely thing. I've been on the receiving end of that so many times that you just feel, I just want to pay that forward as much as I can. That's what like about Lee in general. I think there are some really lovely spots. It's got its challenges, Lee. I won't talk too much about them. The community feel around here, I think is amazing. Sorry, I was going to say, but I think in particular people that are really passionate about doing their own thing, like yourself, like the fact you're doing this podcast and you're trying to make it work. There's so many people like that. Like Katie from Gold Geese and everyone we bump into at the hatch all the time. Or like, yeah, like Ralph or there's so many other people like that that are just really passionate. I've got a really cool thing going on and they're really trying to make something good work. find that that's the... Like you say, like such a community like that around Lee. Yes, definitely. Yeah. It's why it's lovely to be able to do a lot of stuff around them. I really enjoy that about the community and yeah, I felt weird about moving from Basildon to Lee. maybe you have these sort of preconceptions like you say about certain areas, but I've loved it. I've really got that vibe straight away. Like the creativity, the independent businesses, whether it's the coffee shop or the skate shop that we used to have that looks like it's sadly going, I think, just things like that in your local community. And yeah, the hatch, think you're spot on with that. mean, Ralph's probably going to start charging the finders fee and he's talking about... Well, I'm wondering when he's going to stop. I introduced myself to him the other day in the hope that he'd come on the podcast and he's on the fence. I'm sure, Ralph, you've got to come on the podcast. yeah, I'm just worried he's going to start charging for desk space. I work there because it's just such a lovely environment. The amount of people I've met, same with Mike, my wife does work in other letters as well and knows that family. She's known them like when Lynn Tate used to be the Lynn Tate gallery. So she knew Lynn really well. So I've got to know that family through Poppy and that space is just utilized for really well, it's really welcoming, really warm and open and just, yeah, good vibe. You need that in this sort of community. And great wifi. Yeah. Which helps. Okay, great. So I want to talk specifically about the work that you are doing as part of time, because that's something that we've kind of not, we talked about some of the projects at the start of this, but I want to delve a little bit more into it. So talk to me about... the kind of work that you do and the impact that it makes on the community and the people that you're working with. So I'm just trying to think of how best to start this. Can we talk about some of the projects, specific projects, that help rather than it really broadly? Talk to me then, I'm going to talk about the project that you've done with people with early onset dementia. So tell me first about how that comes about and then a little bit about the journey that you go on with everyone involved in that too, if that's okay. So we initially, again, talking about networking and putting yourself out there, so Peaceful Place is the place you went to to deliver that project you spoke about. It's the early onset dementia home, sorry, like day center in Basildon. So it takes in people for the day that have early onset dementia and gives them activities they've looked after, they get made lunches and stuff. It means a lot of them can lead independent lives. So as opposed to like a home where they looked after like 24 seven, means they can still go back homes, their family, or some of them live on their own and they can still have their own lives. but they're sort of catered for in the day. They looked after their checked in on and they've got stuff they can do. And I think we have a lot of people with dementia and it's sad to say like a lot of the homes, particularly the ones that are poorly funded, a lot of the people. can sit in chairs all day and kind of, and that deteriorates their, their condition. So places like peaceful place are so important because it gives them so much stimulation and so much to do. and keeps them, we've seen such a big impact on that, that sort of, set up for them compared to, compared to other places, but sorry, going backwards. So we, initially made contact through, Charlotte, is the CEO of peaceful place through, a networky kind of event. did a presentation at an Arts Council event and I got chatting to Charlotte there, spoke to her about time and she just sounded really interested in it. And yeah, we ended up meeting with her and then now we're working in peaceful place, two days a week. Delivering sessions there. And yeah, it's been amazing. It's been, yeah, we've been there for three years, four years. Yeah, maybe sort of around three, yeah, to about three years. Yeah, and it's been amazing. What's the impact that you've seen of the work that you do with the people that go there? think like Mike says there, one's fault in certain services, the funding's just not there to have enough staff to be engaging with the people in some of the elderly and dementia care homes. somewhere like Peaceful Place obviously has a bit more of that. And when you provide music, it never ceases to amaze us. The amount of staff that come over and say, we haven't heard this person. talk before and then they've just sung all the words to Can't Help Falling in Love and started talking to us about their first dance at their wedding and then they might slip back into, you know, a regression and become quite isolated. So like confidence, self-esteem, mobility, like physical movement, the amount of times these people were so sort of withdrawn, they just come alive. You're playing all shook up or something and they will be out of their chair dancing. And for us, we come in room, we don't know the whole backstory. So you might just think, I'm a bit tired today, you know, or a bit run down. The amount of people say to us, it's really hard to get them to communicate or get them to move. Music in dementia is mind blowing, man. It really is. For the verbal, the communication and the physical mobility, it happens on such a regular basis in the amount of staff that tell us that they're just seeing things. And then they will feed back to us as well. They'll say a family member have said they've noticed a difference that evening. That might sort of slip away. Obviously that's the sad reality of that condition. One of the early people we met again, we're not networking, we went to something dementia friends and dementia Alliance, something there was, and a guy there called Carl, he said to us, even if the person you're providing this stimulation for can't tell their support network that evening, what they did that day, they will feel better for it. And there'll just be something about their demeanor and their manner that just you've had an impact on their day. So don't worry if they can't tell you 10 minutes later, what song you just played or a call something, you're just having this positive wellbeing. And I think it's so important to remember that. Yeah. And often we've found that like, another thing that he said was like, they may not remember why they're happy, but they'll know that they're happy. Do you know what mean? So being able to go in and deliver something like a music session that makes them happy. Like I said, you might not remember 10 minutes later what just happened, but you'll be, they will be in a, in a positive mode. They will reflect the kind of emotion that they've had that day. Well, physiologically that is doing something, isn't it? It's releasing things internally, like on a physical level that they may not be able to communicate or even know what that feeling is. know, dopamine is just one example of that. But there is a good, happy hormones being released when you feel that. Yeah. within dementia as well, I'm not the best like scientific sort of mind, but I can't remember it the exact... stuff that goes on in the brain when, listening to music. But, I know that, with music, the part that, like stores, memory and emotions, and that particularly around music, the part that stores musical sort of memories or how you can remember the words for song you haven't heard in years, that part of your brain is one of the last parts to sort of the dementia reaches when it starts to, yeah, like sort of take over the brain. first bit is more like the short term memory, which is again, why they can't quite remember what they'd done that morning or if they'd made that cup of tea or whatever, but things like music or like that, the song that played on someone's like first dance that made them really feel something that kind of like, yeah, really beds itself into the brain. That part is so well protected from dementia that, that's why when you go in and you play a can't help falling in love, suddenly so many people can remember the words and have this deep. emotional reaction to it is because physically in the brain, that part's still there and it's still working. And I think with music, it's so universal. Like when we came into this room, all of us spoke about our first bands that we really liked and it resonates very, very, everyone. Like if we were to go out onto the street now and ask around and pass by, who's your favorite singer or your favorite band? they would instantly know, like off the top of their head, would hope like 99 % of the time, I would hope they would have a strong answer. But if you were to ask them, who's your favorite painter or who's your favorite poet or who's your favorite writer, a lot more people I think would struggle to answer the question. And that's not putting any shade on those other art forms, but it's just recognizing how universally loved and appreciated music is and how embedded it is. to a lot of people's emotions and their memories. You're completely right. yeah, universal is the right word. And it's a language, regardless of what language you speak, like a melody can have exactly the same impact on someone regardless of whether you speak the same language or not. It's how it affects you. And there has been research that maybe I could have done, drawn up some of these figures and stats on the research of of the studies that are looking into the impact of music on patients with dementia. But when you've seen it in real life, that's the difference, isn't it? Because you can look at numbers and think, okay, well, it's opening this neural pathway or it's creating this physiological response. But you guys have been in the room when this is happening. You've seen the response to music and I think that's just amazing. And I actually the projects that you share and that video that me and my partner watched last night, which is holding onto those memories, the song that you did, it just opens your eyes to it. Till you see it, I don't think people can really, it can't hit you in the feels like it does. We watched it, we were just in bits. Yeah, that's really kind to say, man. I'm glad, Hopefully it was a positive feeling. Completely. And what it does as well is makes you want to help. It makes you want to support in ways too. And I think that's a lot of the the perception of that condition can be just this blanket of dementia over the individual. Whereas we hoped with that project that you see someone's personality shining through as well. know, watch to the end. Those outtakes. at the end. it's howling. It's so good. It's great. And that's a room full of people laughing with that person. Do you know what mean? And then it breathes that community. And yeah, we will always try and do that wherever possible. And a lot of the time that will be led by the person who's participating. Their personality will shine through. can't avoid it. And hopefully music is is stimulating that in some way. And I think it's breaking down lot of stigmas because if you found out someone had dementia, there's a lot of preconceptions that go into your head. they're not, how am going to be able to have a conversation? I'm not going to remember anything. It's going be really, it's going to be a real struggle to communicate that. So what you're doing with the work you're doing in, in, projects like this is breaking down barriers, breaking down those preconceptions and stigmas and stereotypes. And yet just those little outtakes at the end, like the sense of humour of some of them, you're just like, my God, that's hilarious. But maybe people that hear someone's got dementia, they're like, I would never expect that to be the case. Yeah, yeah, totally. And I think it's the same for a lot of the different groups of people we work with. And we work with a lot of people with additional needs as well. And it's very much the same with them, you know, someone... I don't know, you're told that someone has like Down syndrome or cerebral palsy, you sort of go into this like, I need to act this certain way. And you sort of lose, I don't know, a bit of touch with like the human behind the condition. It's the label that you're communicating with as opposed to the person. So if you go in with all these preconceived ideas of, I'm going to be speaking to with Down syndrome, this is what I'm expecting. Well, actually just be willing to let that melt away when you actually have a conversation with that individual. Yeah. Yeah. And I've often had people like, either like friends or volunteers that have come along to like our club night or some of our sessions. And they've always been like nervous for that reason. They're like, what should I say? Or like, how should I communicate with them? And I'm always like, well, just, just like you would anyone else. Like it's not, it's not rocket science. They're all just, yeah, the people that, and even if they can't communicate verbally, like you still speak to them in the same way. Like, hello mate, how you doing? How's the day going? a good day. If they can't communicate back, then you just. you know, carry on communicating with them in the same way you would anyone else. I guess there's again, you they do not want to be treated as other no one wants to be treated as other they want to be treated like a human being which we all are so connect on that level. I will not say that I am I won't preach to the fact that that I haven't been in those situations before where I thought am I am I saying the right thing? Am I communicating in the right way? But I've also been in environments where I've gone in and just immersed myself with people that are so... You just connect on a human level and all of that melts away. Within five minutes you're sat there having a laugh with someone that maybe you didn't think that before you going into a room. And this is the other thing I saw on your website. And I think the night that you do it, the keys in Basildon, just... Tell me about that and how the idea for that came around. So if you don't mind explaining to anyone listening what that is. Yes, that started at the Edge Bar in Basildon. Eight years ago or nine years ago. Just over eight years ago. over eight years ago. And that was because we just identified that there was night clubs starting for people with additional needs. There was one in South Waukenden, there was one in like Benfleet Hadley and we was like, there's nothing going on in Basildon. Again, just networking through sessions we go to, we'd hear about these clubs. And a lot of the time they were held in sort of community halls, know, or old church halls, which is nothing against that environment, but it didn't quite... breed or represent that inclusive nature that the Wii, a bit like you're touching on there, was like, well, why shouldn't there just be a nightclub where people can go and if they want to drink, they can grab a beer and they can see their friends and they can dance and they can request songs and like be this inclusive environment. yeah, we sort of sort around the local bars and the Edge very kindly said they'd host it. And we just started to promote it. Like we did everything else, you know, went door to door, run all the care homes that we knew. look, we're going to run a disability inclusive club night. And I think we had like eight people come on the first one or maybe 12, that was a maximum. And then just kept going weekly and built up to the point of before we had the edge, we'd have like over 80 paying attendees and that's without their support network come along. So you'd have a hundred plus people in the room every Monday evening. And obviously some people require support. Some people initially required support, but then they would come on their own. Their parents might drop them off. Their carers might drop them off. They'd come back and collect them later. Some people would start to get the bus routes sorted and attend on their own. It was building independence. was promoting social inclusion. We'd like sort of try to facilitate creative expression as well. So we'd have jump up and jam nights where we'd go on as a band and people are like, what song do want to sing about? One direction. Okay, right. We'll learn that and you come up and you can sing that with us. Karaoke like goes down a storm every week. People will be queuing and fighting to get up there first or get a second go. You do song request nights. We have external performers come along. And then sadly the edge shut down last year. And we just had to find a new venue and the keys have, yeah, thankfully taken it on and we're just sort of building it again. But we have also, which is a good time to announce, guess. We've just received funding from Essex County council to make the night free for a whole year. wow. To try and again, just boost the numbers and people that may be bit reticent about coming along, come and embrace that environment, meet some friends, access the local community. So there'll be no entry fee from next Monday for a year. That's incredible. It's great, man. It's such a lovely way to start the week. I don't get to go there as much as a moment because of having kids, but I'll be back at some point. Mike and Rob are running it kindly. Yeah. It's such a beautiful way to spend your Monday night. yeah, like I said, we've been doing it. Been going almost every Monday for the last eight years. And yeah, such a beautiful community there. The people that come regularly have just like built such a strong network of friends and people there. And it's just so wonderful to sort of see that, like to see people come. you know, four years ago on their own to now like having this big network of people that like cheering when they come in, you know, it's to like, yeah, create the foundation of that. it's amazing. And like, like Mark said, the, the fact that we've been able to go free is so amazing. Like we've wanted to do that for such a long time. And that's why we started the chariot alongside the limited company to be able to do things like that in the things that are so vitally important. Like. having a place for these people to belong, that's what Involve really is. Having be able to come and do something like that for free and just having that accessible to you is so important and that's really what we're trying to drive with the charity, trying to just make these things that should be basic available for everyone, no matter how much money you have. Without going into it in too much detail, because I can imagine the process to get funding through Essex County Council is a process. That was learning, wasn't it? like the whole process would start to finish with like, my God, what are we doing here? Is it as involved as I imagine it to be? Or were they kind of, do you have to show, okay, this is the sort of outcome we expect to happen if this gets funding? That's what I'm imagining it to be. Yeah, I think there's variants where some, it's always, you've always obviously got to show the worth and be like, this is our idea, this is our experience in the field, this is the people that we've liaised with to highlight the need. But then there's sort of variants of how intense that can be. And when you go to more like your bodies, like a council, that classic thing of a lot more red tape, a lot more involvement, a lot more departments, which is fair enough. That's everyone operates in different ways. So with this process, it was a lot more involved. Excuse the pun, but yeah, it took a lot longer than some funding applications, but we have, we've learned from it. And also we've made new... contacts. We know people in these departments now, like commissioning officers that we, you'd hear about that department, but we didn't know anyone directly there. But then they come from a very strong, passionate place like we do. They work in different departments, but they come from the same ethos of just wanting to provide and have things going on for the community. Why should it be any different? You've got your mainstream clubs and nights and events. they're not all free entry, but like we touched on earlier, maybe people in underprivileged communities or disabled services. They haven't necessarily got that funding to go and provide a lot of activities. So yeah, it's been a really nice sort of marriage between the two to work with the council like that. They're happy for us, obviously, to say that they've been part of that process. And yeah, we've definitely learned a lot from and excited to make it through. It was really nice as well. It's not the case with all funding applications, but the Essex County Council from Involve was nice because we were actually approached by Essex County Council because they were keen to help us and do something with us. They've seen what we've done at Involve and they were like, want to help just get involved with this and just help you out and make this more accessible thing. again, it sort of shows that it's not necessarily like a big, you suddenly have to do like a massive funding application and do all this stuff. Sometimes it is just, again, those little things day by day, building it, building it, building it. And then people start to notice. When it comes from your credibility. I guess your time served, sorry again, puns. credibility, all of these things compounded upon each other, they? The things that you noticed, it makes you bit more visible. that's congratulations, because that's big deal. So that's fantastic. Yeah, that's great. Right, time is where it is now. in five years time, why can't I time now? How many times have I said time in this bloody podcast? A lot of people that would do that over emails to us as well. We'd go to like, there's a care, I Corrin and we'd always go to and the lady would create a different post of it. It's that time again. It's time to dance. I don't know how she keeps it going for so long. Anything for a marketing pun. But five years time, where would you like to see yourselves, what would you like the charity or the business and the charity to have achieved? Have you got, without saying, tell me your five year goals, but like, imagine your future selves in five years. What would you like to achieve? What was one thing that you would have liked to have seen happen? Yeah, I mean, in the simplest way possible, not to sort of dart the detail in any way, to make more people aware of the benefits of music and to reach more people without ethoses and purposes, as you sort of outlier. outlining the charity bid, the purpose of the charity, because every home we've been to, we've seen the impact. So the idea is just to scale that. And by bringing on a new instructor, the first time we've had to do that outside of a funded body, we feel like we're to learn a lot from that because we was having to turn away clients or say, look, we can't take you on now, but at some point we will. So we hope this is the start of that next phase where we build a team, a team outside of three mates that got this going, expand that team. and start delivering those benefits to more people in the wider Essex area. I hope that answers your question. Better than I imagined that you were going to answer it, to be honest with you. Going back to the hiring, because this is my own thing, curiosity coming in just because of the space that I work in. Three mates start a business, start this thing upright, and then you hire externally for the first time. It ended up being the guy, David, ended up being David that came over and introduced himself. how do you kind of... I don't know, sieve out all the traits that make you three what you are and then put them into a job description. Has that been difficult? And do you feel like, obviously you've got to say yes, because you've hired him, but obviously David has ended up kind of fitting that criteria. But was that difficult? Yeah, yeah. And it's hard to say because when you've been running something as friends for so long, you sort of have almost like like certain unsaid things or like way of doing things that you just almost like don't think about. They become just sort of like, I don't know. in the background and, you know, like, for example, if Rob's going to go out and do a session, you know, that he's going to do a really good job and he's going to run it well, or, know, you come to a meeting, I know what marks can have prepared or I know just that we had all these sort of like unsaid systems in place that work really well. then to bring someone else in is like, right. Okay. How's someone else going to take fitting into that and how they're going to work around it? And yeah, how are we going to advertise for a role like that? So yeah, it was tricky. Like, I think you just got to do your best like writing out the application and that job description as best as you can. And we sort of hoped that I've been the biggest thing is, is, was to find someone that was the wanting to make a difference is again, as cheesy as that sounds. Again, identify someone that saw this as a vocation as much as it was a paid piece of work, Yeah, absolutely. I think that was, yeah. I think that's something that we all hold really dear is like, how, how can we impact people? how can we make a difference and how can, like, again, this idea of making people belong. think that was the biggest thing for us to see in that in someone else. And again, we were really lucky in that all the people we interviewed, I feel like had that they were all really passionate about wanting to make a positive impact on, a community. but it just, yeah, they're just extra bit of sparkle was, was from David, but those things sometimes are so hard to come across over in a CV or a covering letter. And this was really frustrating about sorting through them. That was the most. hard thing is, and, and in a lot of ways, like David, we, we almost like, we didn't give David any advantage, but because we saw that spark in him from before, we were like, we know he's kind of got this thing. and we want to see that similar spark in other people. but it's the S that you can't get that over on a CV, you know? Yeah. There's like an initial filtering process in there that we've, we've been meeting with like a business advisor once a month. been great, just all online, but she's given us some really good advice. And she told a story in the buildup to this when she was hiring like an admin assistant, was it? And there was like this form that had to be filled out and there was a couple of boxes that needed to be ticked on the back and like half of the people hadn't ticked it. She was like, well, that's gone straight away. is an admin. For an admin assistant, eye for detail, straight away you're So there's these tiny little things that you start to notice in applications that someone might have had a really good background in music. They're sort of highly trained classical pianist, but just something would be missing maybe from that care element that you say, that kind of background. And then it's just little nuggets, because of course, in an hour interview, you're not going to get to know someone as well as you will over the three month probation period or whatever. just those little moments where they would mention something that came across from like, from their heart, from a bit of personal experience, something they've lived through, something they've seen. like you've done, they watched the holding onto those memories video. David was able to like quote lyrics from it and say about how much this had an impact on me. He had good questions for us. He could relate kind of experiences of music to things in his life. Like I'm not saying everyone has to have this pivotal moment in life, but when you are stepping outside of your comfort zone for the first time and like you say, bringing someone into that team, it was like, right, he said so many similar things to how we feel about the situation. Even if he hasn't been to this home that we go to, he's done his research, he's got something else in his life he can reference of how music has changed him or someone else. And we were like, okay, that just, that feels good to us. Yeah, totally. I think sometimes it is easier to fill out, filter out some of the people that aren't applicable. Like we had someone from Iran, a potato farmer from Iran apply for our job. We were like, maybe someone in the future. never know. But I mean, your insight into my world, you'll get hundreds of applications for jobs of people that just say like easy apply, whatever it is, they just sort of load and then fire it out there. yeah, it was an interesting point from, and again, having gone through, I am a small, but it's me and one other person now, but I went through a hiring process and I went five years without ever wanting to hire anyone for the reason that I would find it hard. to disseminate all of the stuff I do on a daily basis and teach someone. Because when you're only looking after yourself and when you've been three people setting the business up from the start, you've got this unspoken language that you don't need to go, would we ever put this in like idiot notes or a book or like a... And that scared me if I'm perfectly honest. That scared me how I do my job day to day. Because then I thought, how do I... do my job day to day and then finding someone that is going to represent you and your brand that you've poured this energy into in the right way. And I think that's probably more so for you guys such a big thing because you need someone to care. You need someone to go to a session and be confident that they are going to represent you in the way that that you have built your brand and that credibility in the space. It's a tricky thing, man, that that message has got to be carried across and that that was the hardest thing. Because I think from the admin perspective and the roles that, David will inevitably get involved in in some way. If you build enough systems, you know, we've watched a lot of those kind of YouTube videos about that sort of creators or whatever, and they were referenced like the sort of McDonald's model. Like you could be sort of airlifted anywhere in the world to McDonald's and there's such refined systems that you could pick up that role really quickly. And that's a great example of how to run a business and you try and bring that into your day to day. But yeah, the actual delivery of what we're passionate about, you can get a vibe for it. And that's what we've gone on. And he couldn't have sold himself anymore. But you then have to just see that in full action and hope that you've got that. not fully tangible, it? It's really hard to make it like a hundred percent guarantee that I can pinpoint exactly what makes it. But a lot of the time it is a feeling. people that interview are taught not to just go on feeling. But you have to. We're humans, connected with humans. Yeah, this is it. And I think our exciting thing with this as well was that we are potentially opening ourselves up to someone that maybe doesn't do... the job exactly like us, but that adds something else that even if someone that's more qualified, like someone with lots of experience or has done a similar project somewhere else and they bring their own ideas and then it grows in that kind of way. I think that's been the journey over this last year, I think has been all about that. It's been about sort of growth and expansion. And although we brought on this new member of staff in David, We have also done a lot of work in outsourcing a lot of things this year. And we found that to be a massive, massive game changer. And it feels like we're expanding the team, but we just haven't got them on a contracted arrangement. And it's about asking ourselves things like, well, what aren't we the best at? We can't replicate ourselves and do two jobs at once, but where are maybe like some holes in the business and things like grant writing. As much as we do them and we've been pretty successful with quite a few of them, trying to apply for a lot of money for very specific funds like lottery or arts council, that sometimes just takes a refined eye. Someone that's done it before that knows the ins and outs to say, no, you need to make sure that this is in there. You need to make sure you have these statistics here. And so yeah, we're working with a grant writer at the minute who's amazing. And again, who just like expands and develops the team. without him being a technically an employee. There's various ways you can augment skill sets now, isn't there? And I think again, for anyone that's on the fence about starting up on their own, first off, it is a good exercise to go through to identify strengths and weaknesses as early as possible. And then if you're in a position to, if you've got the means, outsource it. Because you'll enjoy your day to day more. It will put a hell of a lot less stress on your shoulders and you'll get things done quicker. from a productivity perspective, you're not going to be... Like you said, you've had success doing it, but I can pretty much guarantee you probably don't enjoy it. And it takes you away from doing what you want to be doing, which is the delivery, I would imagine. So it's good advice. Identify the weaknesses and then if you can, augment, outsource, delegate. And don't think there's anything wrong with, like you said, like you dip your toe in and you learn a bit about it. Cause then when you do outsource it, you've got a bit of a perspective about it. It's really good at that. And we learn a lot. The funding applications is a really good example because they are so time consuming and this is really exciting. I'm getting to sell the project and the charity. Then you're like, this is a lot of pages, lot of keywords. And then you get that initial rejection. need to expand on this. Then they reject again and it's like, you'll get there. but you go to somebody who's been doing it for 20, 30 years and they get through the door the first time because that's what they do. That's great. Okay. Thank you for the insight on that. just think from the hiring angle, from how you grow things and outsource and stuff. I think that's, I was just curious. How, how do you guys make money? Like what, and if anyone is listening to this and thinking, I want to support this amazing charity and help you in that endeavor, what are the ways that people can go about it? So yeah, first and foremost, from the charitable perspective, we are open to public donations. And that's something we want to raise the profile about because it tends to be when people do hear about it and they see something like Peaceful Place that holding onto those memories is the most recent project we've shared that we're trying to get actually, we're trying to find a PR company to get behind it and push it because we do feel like there's a strong message there. Brilliant. So yeah, that is, we're very lucky when people do see that we tend to get some donations, but we need to raise the profile. Other than that, it's a lot of funding applications. So that's why outsourcing was a big one, because then if we can get a project funded, that gives us some sort of sustainability. We're trying to take that to the next level so that there can be salaries involved. Because at the moment we do run from project to project, or if unrestricted funds come in from public donations, we're like, cool, we can go to that care home that couldn't afford a session, because then we have that backbone and the money. So that really, that is our charitable status. And then from the limited perspective, because we started as a limited company 10 years ago, We've still got clients that we was going to within that first year that we still see. There's one that we go to in Havering and we usually wouldn't go that far with a small team, but because they supported us early on, it's like, well, let's go there. It's a legacy relationship, isn't it? And built that Thursday around that environment. So Rob goes to a session in the morning, does two hours of this service and then does another one on the way home. And that's paid work. And that's sort of what starts to build your salary from the limited perspective. And obviously we had to declare all this with the charity commission. They knew about the sort of working relationship with both bodies. So you've got your regular income and then with the charity, it's a bit more like, okay, it's a of a gamble. I think we can get this funded. we've now got holding onto those memories will now be something that we show to other funders. Now that we've got this project that's gone really well. case study, isn't it? it. Bang. There we go. Look at the impact that can have. And that should help the next funding application to hopefully work up the ladder. Yeah. And it can be a little bit like, it feels a little bit dirty sometimes talking about money and income and stuff like that. But like Lowy said about earlier, that's how companies have to run. Like we can't employ people if there's, there's no money involved. And lift the lid on that, haven't you? It's got to be a transparent thing. Yeah. But this is why I think the two arms of it work really well together and mean that it's sustainable. If it wasn't, yeah, we didn't have the private and the charity, it wouldn't be able to function. wouldn't, we'd have to find other jobs. And it's actually the case that, this was been really fascinating about building the business and time and the charity is to see that I think like tons of other charities and nonprofits do something similar. If you think about like a museum, for example, museums are generally nonprofits, but they'll have a gift shop. So they have like a private arm that is selling stuff for profits that helps it helps it sustain itself. But it has like a, yeah, like a limited. side to it, you know. Yeah, of course. And we'll always, that is that sort of tricky area as well. If you've got both services running alongside each other and you've got your pay clients and the people that are coming under the charity, it's like, how do you put them both together and make sure everyone's getting a fair service? So to start with everyone that we see will always be free. Whether we've got a project funded or not, we will just look for the unrestricted funds or something to make sure that person does not have to pay when we first go. And then if someone is a long standing client. that pays for the services, whenever we get new funds in, like, can we go and do a run of sessions for free for these people? Can we do an extra session for them? Can we do something outside of the normal hours? Can we fund like a recording project? Can we film a video for them? I'll always be thinking, how can we give them something extra that isn't going to cost them anything? And I think when you spoke earlier about the sort of five year plan or the goal, and I think that's sort of where we're heading. We're more keen to try and approach big funders that want to make these sort of projects happen and get funded for them as opposed to having to ask for money. think, yeah, it's so special to be able to ring someone up and say, we've got this really cool idea. Do you want to make this CD? Do you want to write this song? No cost to you. We're just going to come and do it. Yeah, that's so cool. Imagine receiving it, like being in the position where you're receiving that call to that email for the first time, you're like, wow, this is just such an awesome thing. Yeah. That's great. And I hope Yeah, aim is that this podcast or people listening to this, it raises the profile and gives you an opportunity to promote what it is you're doing. Because again, the public fundraising and money coming in is so vital to what you're doing. yeah, I'll be pushing this as much as humanly possible to get us into many people's ears as we can. yeah, if you're listening to this and want to help, then there are there's donation pages on your website too, aren't there? People feel compelled to go and do that and then you can look into the specific projects that you guys have done through your website, but just make sure you have a box of tissues. If you're a bit shy about crying, watch it on your own. yeah, there's some emotional moments in there for sure. Okay, have you got any projects coming up that you just want to talk about or anything, events, projects coming up that you want to of shine a on? We've done a similar thing to the Peaceful Place video. We've been working with the Men's Shed in Biliriki, which is another service that supports people living with dementia. And I've written a song with them that they titled Happy Shed, which is all about there. sort of meet on a weekly basis and it's just this really friendly environment where it started off. think Billy Connolly did a similar thing on TV a while back about somewhere in Scotland. where it was sort of men that were like tradesmen that once they sort of ended retirement and maybe people that had early onset sort of lost, felt like they lost a lot of purpose. So they went into this space and they would be able to do like woodwork and carpentry and that. And I think this started in a similar way, but then it just spread to obviously you realise how many people in the local area are living with that condition or someone wants to bring their wife along or, know, maybe both people are living with that condition. And it's just this really supportive, friendly group. It's beautiful. So we went there and wrote a song with them that we're in the process of mixing. So that will be shared at some point soon. They're then going to play at our club night and we're playing at the volunteer awards at Towngate Theatre in March, I think it is. So that's something that we're looking to promote. Obviously the club night being free entry is a big thing that we're promoting at the moment. And we'll have like a Christmas fun themed evening as well involved, which is always a good laugh. And generally just keep an eye on the Facebook because there's always a little songwriting project or just a moment shared from a session or sort of... breakthrough that someone's had with communication or some sort of creative expression. It's coming out there on a regular basis. Yeah, we've got a group called Caged Arts as well. They're a group of three lads that formed this band called Caged Arts. And yeah, the three guys in the band have either got Asperger's or autism and they've been making music with us for ages now. They sort of back to the early days. They first met us at the drop in back when I was like 20, 19, 10 years ago. And yeah, they make like rock music. play like guitar and bass and they sing. And yeah, they just write rock music and they've got this new song they're about to release called I ain't done yet. And it's sort of like a country rock kind of thing. We're going to shoot the music video for it in next couple of weeks, sending the track off to master. And that's going to be coming out. excited to get that out That's brilliant. Well, we'll put as many links as possible in the episode description so people can look at website, Facebook pages and all the projects you've got coming up. We've got two things to close on. So I have, introduced a game, which you wouldn't have heard in Katie's episode, cause it didn't feel appropriate to play that game in Katie's one, but it's a game of this or that. So you're to have 10 questions. I'm splitting these randomly. So I'm going to ask alternate questions. 10 questions, two answers, you've got to pick one or the other as quickly as possible. and try not to give context, you've just got to say the answer. And I do try my best to make these relevant. But it doesn't always go according to plan. So question number one, Mike, we're going to start with you and we're going to alternate from there. Question number one, live performance or studio recording? Studio recording. Mark, question number two, guitar solo or drum solo? Guitar solo, I'm not allowed to give context though, I'm really not a widdly guitarist, so yeah, guitar solo. Right, Mike, question number three, charity work or corporate work? Charity work. You've got to say that really as well, that was awful question. Question number four, Mark, organising an event or being in the spotlight? Organising an event. Okay, Mike, question number five, acoustic session or electric gigs? Acoustic session. Mark, question number six, improv or carefully crafted plans? Improv. Question number seven, Mike, festival crowd or intimate venue? Intimate venue. Okay. Question number eight, hiring for skills or hiring for passion? Hiring for passion. Okay. Nice. Right, Mike, this is specific to you, Nintendo Switch or Stream Deck? man, you killed me. I've to Steam Deck. Sorry, do apologize. mean, they could end up being a sponsor. Question number 10, Mark, mastering the scales or learning the songs? Learning the songs. There you go. Thank you so much for getting involved with that. No context, can't say anything about it. Okay, the final, the closing. If any of that doesn't make sense to anyone listening, you're gonna have to go and explore some YouTube channels too. I just want to say they're great. Like your content is so good and it's like so well produced, obviously, sound wise, visuals. So yeah, if anyone's listening and if you want to learn guitar... You both do you and I don't know if I ever pronounce it. Is it you Demi or you Demi? Like you Demi for ages and then someone changed it to me the other day. I thought I'm going to say you Demi. You Demi courses on various topics and just a treasure trove of stuff that you can see Mark and Mike on. The closing tradition is a question from my mum, which is yeah, again, it's just it's something that stuck around. So we've got it here. Okay. So I'm going to play this down the microphone to the pair of you. then see what she's come up with this week. Okay. Hi Mike and Mark. What is the most unusual musical instruments that you've used in your projects? Thank you. Unusual. It's Lisa, if you wanted to. She always likes if people direct the answer to Lisa. I've got an answer if you... Yeah, go for it. I don't think I can remember. There's a couple that I can't remember the name of. yeah, you're different. Cool. So, Lisa, yeah, thank you for the question. The sound beam, I think, is probably one of the most unusual but also really, like, technologically advanced instruments we've ever used. It was initially designed for sort of the dance sector, performing arts. And it's basically like a microphone shaped device that projects an invisible beam. And when you cross that beam, it can trigger a sound. You can change the length of that beam. So you could put like one scale into it. You could then put like four or five octaves of that scale. And it didn't quite work because you had a lot of people leaping out and staying not quite knowing where the beam was. It all got a bit messy. And then it found its way into SEM environments because people started to think, suddenly someone with the most limited movement, if they could move their right index finger, you could make that beam really small. You could fit a whole scale with a piano sound or a violin, whatever you load onto the sound bank, into that area and suddenly that person could participate in music. you could load samples on there, it could be a car, you know, sort of a horn, could be a dog barking, whatever you want, or you could have a beautiful grand piano loaded onto it. And the inclusivity that created and accessible music became because of that was amazing. So for any funders out there, are trying to get the latest sound beam because they are lot of money, but they are amazing instruments. Yeah, I didn't know that existed. They're very unusual. for man's sound beam. Yes, that's a really good shout. Yeah. And like Mark said, even someone would say like very limited movement, if they can just move their hand, even a finger we've used before, like just moving their finger back and forth can create this sort of scale of scale of sounds. And then yeah, you pick, I dunno, you play a song together in C, you pick the... Scala C on the sound beam and suddenly they're playing in tune to the song. Wow. Yeah, it's amazing. All the on the other end, you get people that would love to dance in front of it. And we'd have, yeah, people that, you know, really struggled to play like any kind of instrument, but suddenly they end up dancing. again, put it, tune it to the song and then they're dancing, doing this amazing interpretive dance, their hands and their legs and they're running back and forth and making these amazing sounds. Yeah. That's crazy. There you go, mum. There's your question answer for this week. thank you so much, gents. And it's just been an absolute pleasure. it just like for me, the power of networking shows, I'm making you the hatch and now we're doing this podcast. just genuinely, I say this from looking into the work that you do and having sat like had the absolute pleasure of sitting opposite you for nearly two hours, just Thank you for the work you're doing because it is absolutely incredible. And I'm so glad that you're doing it. And I'm so glad that you took up so much of time this morning to have the conversation. So thank you for that. Appreciate it. Absolute pleasure. And we really appreciate the opportunity to highlight the achievements of the people that attend our sessions. And again, just to network, meet with yourself, talk to yourself. It's been an absolute pleasure. Thank you. Thank you so much, man. It's been lovely. No worries at all. Thank you. Thanks for listening to Jobsworth. If you enjoyed this episode, please feel free to give us a follow wherever you listen to your podcasts and while you're there, if you could take two seconds to rate the show, that would be awesome. You can follow Jobsworth on Instagram where you'll get teasers for upcoming episodes, some behind the scenes videos and the occasional bit of career inspiration. And if you'd like to learn more about my day job, then feel free to connect with me on LinkedIn.