Educating Emma

In this weeks episode, I sit down with Emma Huggett, founder of Monty's Play Hub. We discuss her journey in education, the challenges of teaching, and the impact of systemic pressures on educators as well as Emma's experiences with workplace bullying, burnout, and the importance of passion in teaching. She reflects on the changes she's seen in the education system over the years, how she rediscovered her confidence as a teacher and covers the impact of the Montessori method on her educational philosophy as well as the challenges faced in traditional education. We also learn how she balances entrepreneurship, motherhood and homeschooling her kids. The discussion emphasises the importance of child-led learning, the flexibility of home education, and the evolving nature of parenting and education as children grow.

Takeaways

• The education system often prioritises results over individual student needs.
• Emma emphasises the importance of supporting children's happiness over academic results.
• The Montessori method emphasizes hands-on, child-led learning.
• Teaching should work for the educator as much as the students.
• Home educating offers a different approach than traditional schooling.
• Parents should not feel pressured by traditional educational structures.
• Home education can evolve as children grow and their needs change.
• Practicalities of home education can be daunting but manageable.
• Parents should focus on what works best for their family.
• There are resources available for families considering home education.

Monty's Play Hub

Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/montysplayhub
Website -  https://www.montysaurus.co.uk/
Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/montysplayhub

Keywords

Emma Huggett, Montessori, teaching, burnout, education system, workplace bullying, career advice, teaching challenges, primary education, supply teaching, Teaching, Montessori, Education, Confidence, Home Education, Parenting, Online Learning, Decluttering, Traditional Education, Child Development, home education, unschooling, work-life balance, parenting, COVID-19, child-led learning, education alternatives, family dynamics.

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Chapters

• 0:00 Intro
• 2:39 The Journey into Teaching
• 8:11 The Reality of Teaching vs Expectations
• 12:52 Burnout and Workplace Challenges
• 25:17 The Impact of Systemic Pressures on Education
• 32:26 Rediscovering Confidence in Teaching
• 36:14 The Montessori Method: A New Perspective
• 39:03 Decluttering and Discovering Montessori
• 41:52 Shifting Teaching Approaches
• 45:46 Challenges of Traditional Education
• 47:40 The Spark of Montessori in Business
• 51:41 Navigating the Pandemic
• 55:43 Creating Community Through Online Learning
• 59:17 Home Educating vs. Homeschooling
• 1:04:51 Embracing Home Education During COVID
• 1:12:12 The Philosophy of Unschooling
• 1:18:17 Balancing Work and Home Education
• 1:25:15 Advice for Prospective Home Educators
• 1:31:15 Lisa's Question

Transcript

0:00

Is it recording right now? We're always recording. yeah, always recording. Yeah. suddenly like, I've had this awareness. Is it recording? What I always do, and I do tend to tell people, but I'll always record because I hate the forced three, two, one, right, now we're recording. yeah, I'd write, it just starts organically and then I'll, when we go go, you'll know. Welcome to episode nine of Jobsworth season three. This week, I sit down with Emma Huggett. founder of Monty's Play Hub, a movement that blends Emma's love of Montezori and background in teaching to support and educate parents whilst giving children the space and freedom to grow happy. After leaving college and deciding that she wanted to go to university locally, Emma embarked upon a teaching degree at Anglia Ruskin in Chelmsford, landing a job at a primary school soon after graduating. While the first 12 months in her new role allowed her the freedom to teach in a way that she loved, it soon became apparent that a school's definition of success when it came to teaching was at odds with her own. We discuss Emma's experience of workplace bullying, what it was like experiencing severe burnout and how she rebuilt her confidence and love for teaching after taking control of the situation and leaving one job to start another. We also learn all about Montezuri including how Emma discovered it in the first place, why she thinks it's so beneficial to children and parents and what it was like starting up her own business during the pandemic whilst home educating her kids. Yep. we're talking about some serious plate spinning. So without further ado, let me introduce you to a truly inspiring educator and Montessori master, Emma Huggett. So Emma, when you were younger, what did you want to be when you grew up? Well, having listened to some of the episodes, I have actually thought about this already. I was like, right, what do I say to this question? So when I was really little, like when I was probably like four five, I think I definitely... wanted to be an artist, but also wanted to be a teacher. And I just remember like having this kind of, I don't know, almost being like stood towards teaching, I suppose, because you didn't make any money as an artist. So I was kind of like, I remember this kind of like, yeah, I'll be a teacher sort of thing. And then as I got older, I really loved art, like I really loved drawing. And when we were in senior school, I did. design technology and then did that again in A level. And I've really wanted to go into like product design or something like that. And then when it came to applying to uni's and stuff, I was like too much of a wuss to move away. So I was like, what can I do where I can go to Chelmsford University? teaching. So yeah. And was that a real determining factor for you to try and stay close to home? you must have, you know, from a young age, you're already thinking teaching could be an option to pursue anyway, but it was not really ready yet to get away from that. Was it the support network you had around you, a bit of homesickness thrown into that? The friends, family? Yeah, I don't, I just remember having this really overarching feeling that I just did not want to leave home. I just wanted to, and all my friends were like, yeah, we're to go to... you know, Portsmouth and Farnham and all of these other like Brighton and whatever. And I just was like, I just want to stay here. Like, yeah, it was, I don't, I don't really know why. I just felt like I did. Well, was, I mean, it's, it's all worked out well in terms of you completed your studies in teaching and then started your career that way. And we're going to talk about how that evolved over time as we go through the podcast. It's interesting. I talk about career advice a lot on this podcast and my experience with it. And most guests, I think if they can remember the advice they got at the time when they were choosing what they wanted to go into the big wide world and do, kind of share my opinion that it was pretty shit. Like it wasn't, it wasn't, or that it was very traditional in terms of what we were told we could potentially do. So I remember sitting in CVIC with a careers advisor, whatever. time we were allotted to go and sit with someone to talk about what we wanted to do. And the routes were always the same. was get up into the city or go and find a trade. was really what I remember. Is it a similar story for you? I think it's just like mostly like just find a job where you can live, like you've definitely got a secure income coming in. Like don't take any risks. Just get a job that even if you hate it, like I remember having that conversation. doesn't matter if you don't like it, just do it because you need the money. Can you imagine us telling our children that they are? I know. I feel so strongly that I don't want to do that. I look back and I think, God, I never want my children to feel like they hate their job. Because you're doing that all the time. You need to be in something that you feel passionate about. You're doing it the majority of your life, aren't you? Yeah. And you're doing it day in, day out. And it should be, again, through this podcast. And I think it's a privileged position to be in if you can go to work every day and at least glean something that you enjoy about it. think love is a strong word every day. Or you might turn around and say that you love what you do every day. And that's, that's a great position to be in, but I do think it's a privilege to get to that point. Not to say you don't go through sacrifice. It's definitely ups and downs, isn't it? The only reason I ask about that is because you say at four or five, you wanted to do art. And then I think the general consensus is you won't make money doing that. So don't pursue it. And it's funny, isn't it? Like my mom and my brother have both gone down that route and become artists that make a living doing that. Yeah. I think that's why I loved listening to their podcast so much. Cause I was like, it's just brilliant how they stuck to the thing that they loved the most and just like, have forged a career out of it. It's brilliant. Do you think so? Personally, for the conversations I've had, think it is. I think it is, yeah. Again, I'm a bit more cynical about it because I speak to so many people day in, day out in my normal day job in recruitment that doing what they do to pay the bills, make the money, and have aspirations that they've never even spoken to people about half the time too. And also a lot of people identify what they love doing, what they're passionate about later in life. Not everyone's... fortunate enough to know from a young age, I've got this innate drive or talent in me to do a certain thing. If you crack onto that and identify that young, you've got more opportunity, I think. I definitely think I, like, cause I remember talking to my husband about this and he had no idea what he wanted to do. And then listening to all the other podcasts as well, it just made me realize that how many people actually have no real idea what they're suited to until much later in life. Yeah. Sometimes never. Maybe we don't have enough conversations about it. Maybe the guidance we're given at a young age is poor. I think, I would hope that our generation of parents are going to have very different conversations to the ones our parents are having with us. And that's not to detract from how amazing my upbringing was with my mom. My mom said this before. She thinks I could be anything to this day. If I wanted a career change to do anything, my mom would be like, my God, John, that's amazing. Like, how can we support you doing that? Yeah. But I think the conversations I'm going to have with my sons and likely that you're going to have with your kids are going to be very just different. And because we're all so much more aware of the opportunities that are available to us now. Yeah. And again, it's a bit of privilege there like that we've got that chance to say, yeah, do you know what? can do something that you love. Yeah. So try and go down that route if it's possible. Yeah. Talk to me then. Chelmsford teaching. Yeah. Kind of part... In part that decision was made because you didn't want to move away from home at the time. But obviously there's got to be much more to it than that. So why teaching? Why did you feel like that was the route? This is a hard question. I think I did always have this kind of like feeling in me that I wanted to do that. I've always liked being around kids and stuff. And I suppose I liked the idea of like making a difference and teaching just felt like a good way to do that, I suppose. Yeah. Sorry. That's alright. Expand on it a bit more for me though, because I imagine your relationship with that has changed a lot over the years. Yeah. But take yourself back to then when you're that age, when you're going through that and it feels, the word I always think about when I think about teachers is vocation. Did it feel like a vocation? Did it feel like I need... this is my platform to be able to make a difference. Yeah, it did. It's, and also, I don't know, like, it feels like the sort of career that feels kind of guaranteed and it's like, and I feel like these are the wrong answers, but I want you be honest about it. You know, there's, there's always a need for teachers and teaching like offered the degree that I did offered me a guaranteed job at the end of it. basically, like it was, yeah, very high percentage. and, and I don't know, I suppose it was like, I had a career that I could just go straight into and earn money straight away. And I, and I do remember thinking like, I, I just want to earn money like, and it's not mean shit pay, but like, Really like from starting wage is not too bad, but it doesn't like increase very much. So, really like, it's not that great, but like, I remember at the time it was kind of like, this is, this feels like a really secure career choice. And yeah. I, and I it was a little part of me that was like, I'll make a difference, but I think, yeah, perhaps it was more about like the practicalities of it than naturally. like the passion, which, my God, I'm like undoing my whole life here. like, what? I'm like, on a sec. Like I consider myself as someone that's quite passionate about education, but now I'm starting to think, am I? A lot of the time these sessions, these recordings, I'm going call them sessions, these sessions do turn into a bit of therapy. So you end up thinking about things in a way that maybe you haven't approached it before. But. from the position you're in now. And again, you're in a position where a lot of what you talk about, a lot of your subject matter expertise is hinged upon and important upon being dedicated and passionate about children's education. Just because you're taking yourself back to a time where maybe the type of thing, the type of learning you were doing, the initial motivation wasn't that vocation, that's bad thing. You got to think about the practicalities. What year are you at 18, 19 years old. You're thinking about making your way. You're thinking about, okay, you didn't want to move away, but okay, how do I give myself the ability to move out? All of these things you need. And also career advice at the time is get away, just start making money. Get out into the big wide world and make a name for yourself. You don't have to think about at the start as like a passion, a passion that you're developing. So I don't think there should be any, you know, any reservations around that at all. Okay. So. you did your degree, you got your guaranteed job at the end of it. For anyone that doesn't know you, what age group were you teaching? It was, it's primary. I was, most of my experiences in like upper key stage two, which is like 10 and 11 year olds, nine and 10 year olds. So yeah, I've worked as a teacher for 13 years. I started off doing like eight year olds, year three, and then sort of, yeah, went up to the upper key stage two and just kind of hung about there for quite a few years. And then I was like, please, can I go down to the entrance? Then they kept telling me no. Why is that? Because I was too good. They wanted me to get them through the sats. Right, understood. Blown me own trumpet. But like, was like, please, can I just do some little, no, we need you to need the results from you. Okay. So yeah. Okay. Yeah. So what, what was the reality of teaching like? compared to this expectation that you had when you were doing your degree and getting ready to go out there. I think that in the beginning, I was like loving it because I was like, I'll get to be with these gorgeous little kids all day, having so much fun, like teaching all these lessons and like doing all these experiments and just having so much fun with them. And I think in my first year of teaching, it was mostly that and I remember kind of looking back and thinking like, you know, I should really be thinking about like the results and stuff like that, but I was just too having too much fun with them. I think in your first year, is kind of like, you're just, even though you've had the training leading up to it in your first year, really that's, that's your, that's your training year. Like you're really kind of like getting in there and you're responsible for a class, but you are still mentored and, and stuff. like, that was like the best year. And then, and then I started to kind of like really have this like, sudden understanding that, hang on, I'm really responsible for getting the results for the school. And so before it was for me, it was like, I'm helping these children get better at all these things, like reading and writing and stuff. But then it was like, no, yes, I'm doing that, but also I have to meet these targets. And then once you kind of, I don't know, once I sort of had this sort of realization that that's actually what my job was and it wasn't just having fun with the kids. then there's suddenly this pressure to, yeah, like achieve and, yeah. And and I feel like I struggled a lot with that, the, the pressure. I just, I don't know. One of these people that just kind of keeps going all the time and just, you know, like won't give up. But, after a while I could see that it was wearing me down and I kept trying to like, do more and do more. you know, and I'd be there like really late at night and like get there at 7am and leave till seven at night and stuff like that. you know, and I even went for a middle manager's position and stuff, just to add more pressure to my plate. And eventually, I just burnt out and that was about six years in and I just left with no job to go to. So I had about 18 months. off where I was just doing supply teaching. And that was, that like saved me. That was brilliant. Like that was like, that was like what it was in the beginning where I could just go in, teach, do the bit I loved doing the teaching, being with the kids and not have any of the other responsibilities like the, the data and all of the. shit that goes on with admin. So I think a lot of people think that teaching is, just kind of being with kids, but that's such a tiny portion of the job really. Like there's so much other stuff that you're, that you have to do. and, there's a real, saw the other day, which is hilarious. And it said something like, teaching is the only job where you and set the work so that you've got more work to do. Then you go home and do the work so that the work that you didn't catch up on the work, the work, work. And it's just hilarious because I was like, that is so like on it. It's really interesting. My, my ins... Well, my opinion of teaching teachers has changed and I can, I guess the delineation between the, the change of those opinions is pre-kids and post kids. So I had a view of teachers and teaching before I had kids, a very different view of teachers and teaching now. And I think it's age as well, maturity and you realize, but since having kids, realizing how much goes into it and also what a thankless, for the most part, what a thankless job that is. Because you are dealing with the world of parents that have their own opinions, their own agendas, their own motives, their complete bias towards these little human beings. You could be doing the best job in the world. Like you could be pushing yourself to do the best you can do. But subjectively to those parents, you could be screwing up every day. it's what a thankless job in my opinion, outside looking in. And it is why I think of it as a vocation because I think could I do that job? How way could I do that job? It's crazy to me. And that's a lot of pressure as well as trying to hit numbers for the school, trying to hit those targets, taking the work home with you. What a thing to be finding yourself into. The target thing was something that over the years I was like, this just doesn't sit right with me because it's like you're treating a child like a number. like, just doesn't, I just don't like it. That resonates with me. Can I ask Emma, how much of it do you think is the education system? Like the, I guess, how schools are targeted and how they target their teachers. How much do you think is a problem with the system and how much, did you see other people reacting well to that? So how much is it a personal challenge for you to be in that pressured environment where there are targets? How much of it is a problem with the actual system? that's asking for bit of introspection there, but I think it's worth. think it's probably like, I don't know, like it's probably a mix of both, but I think the system definitely is not, is like, there's a lot of flaws with the system in that, you know, schools are expected to reach certain targets. And then, and because they're expected to reach these targets, they're all they're thinking about really is getting the children to do, you know, certain things. And they're not really looking at the child and seeing what the child needs. it's more, so it's kind of like flipped where it's like, you know, it's not about the child. It's about the results. so that, that's not, that's not, that's not the teacher's fault. That's not the school's fault. That is, that's the system. That's the way it's set up. And so, you know, I used to think that I could, you know, change it from the inside out. And I tried and you just can't like, you know, cause you have to answer to off-stead and yeah. So playing the game ultimately, isn't it? To try and get ahead and stay in your job and then progressing your job. of these things. But then I do think that there are, yeah, I suppose there are going to be people that are more able to cope with their pressure that, that I was like, there's, know, It's interesting though, because I sat in a parents evening for my oldest Finlay the other day. I was looking at a teacher that I, and she's amazing, but I expect she's probably in her late twenties, early part of her career maybe. And I'm looking at her thinking how like there has to be a shelf life on this. Because especially with the school, like the one that Finlay's at, they've got very high standards. And for me, don't give a... I about Finlay, I care about is he happy? That is my biggest barometer. That kid comes back from school every day with a smile on his face, goes in through the gates with a smile on his face. That's the barometer for me. Whatever else is going around it, they can do that. But I looked at his teacher and I thought, yeah, wow, how long do you keep this up? And I think it must drain you. And I think the other thing is to just mention is that it's... the system has changed so much over the years, like even in the first few years of my, my own career, where we changed, we changed government. I don't remember what year it was now, but like we went from labor to Tories, didn't we? At one point. And it all just really changed after that. and like they brought a load of targets, you know, that children in year six were expected to do. They brought it suddenly down to like year four and it's kind of like, suddenly like, hang on a sec. If you do that, then you've got a load of kids that are not ready to meet those things because they haven't had all of the buildup in the years coming up to that. there was a lot of, you know, like that, that there's a load of things like that that changed and it just became like, yeah, more, there just was like more and more expectation on the schools and therefore the management. just filters down, doesn't it? To like the teachers and then. Well, it's it. the people that are suffering are the children as well, they? There's tears of it and the shit rolls down from the top and then ends up impacting the children in the way that they have to be taught and the environment they're in. So I get that. Like I say, it's a thankless job, in my opinion, looking at it. And don't get me wrong, I can imagine there are so many beautiful moments with children when you're teaching them something and something clicks. you're getting someone like beaming up at you because they've just sold something that an adult would find the most laborious. Yeah. know, like getting into these kids brains and affecting that change. Yeah. I that's something I can imagine that they're beautiful. Yeah. Amazing golden moments. So like if I think back over my career, like, like particular children that just like stick out in my head and I still see them as like eight year olds, but they're probably like 25 now. That's the terrifying thing. I actually saw a dad recently and he was like, doing some work a couple of doors down from my house and I went, excuse me, are you so and so's parent? And he went, yeah. And I was like, I used to be her teacher, you know, in year four. And he was like, she's 24 now. It's like, my gosh. I was like, that makes me feel so hard. It's it's like seeing your teachers now. Like for anyone listening to this, and Emma used to go to school together and seeing like some secondary school teachers now. I'm just like, yeah. And I think it would be scarier for them to see me. Do think they recognize you still? They will not recognize me, but I'm looking at... They probably would. I don't know. I think it'd be a struggle. Mrs. Watkins, the art teacher the other day from Fitzwymark, might not... I vaguely remember her. Mrs. Watkins, if you're listening, hi. I saw her walking through Old Lee and I wanted to go up and say hello to her. I'm thinking she's just going to see this strange man approach her and have this conversation. She's probably retired. God knows how many years ago as well and done. And as a teacher myself, I would love that. Yeah, I would. Like if one of the, I actually saw a kid, they're not a kid anymore, it's an adult now. Recently, like, and I recognize them, but they sort of gave me this look and I was like, I'm not sure if they remember me. So I'm not going to approach them, but like, I would love that if someone come up to me and said like, you used to be Miss Hill. And like, yeah. I should bear that in mind. saw her, this is not like a Fitzwell-Lock reunion, but I Miss Lostria the other day in Tesco's and I walked past her and I'm thinking, you have not aged. And I now I've got gray hair. She looked fantastic. And I'm like, I can't go up to you in Tesco's in my jogging bottoms and just be like, you're all right, it's lostria. First off. don't know if I could take the rejection of her not knowing me. And then I'm just like, well, where do I go from here? How are you on this bridge? However many years, 20 years of what's gone on. yeah, it must be lovely to have that effect on kids. But yeah, you are ultimately, and it's also against your protecting them from some of the pressure you're feeling too. Because you've got this massive responsibility to shape these little minds. Yeah. And you don't want all of the pressure to filter down to them. No, yeah. It's huge responsibility because essentially you are, you're with these kids all day, every day. And you are, and for a lot of them, it's especially the very young ones. Like these are like really essential formative years. And so you've got such a big influence on them. And So yeah, it's a huge, huge job. And yeah, you need to have the right people in the job really for that. Okay. So you talk about burnout and the subsequent 18 months of supply. What did burnout look like for you? I was not eating and sorry, this is hard for me to talk about because I was At the same time as also being bullied by my head teacher. So it was a really, yeah, hard time in my life. And I just remember things like, you know, being me just being like, I'm not, you know, I'm not giving up. I'm not gonna, you know, I'm going to keep going and stuff. And it was just, yeah, I was being, I was being targeted and just kind of treated like I was crap teacher when I knew deep down I wasn't. You know, and I never had been, but she just, just had this thing where she would pick on one person a year. And that was my turn. And so, anyway, this, yeah, it all just kind of came to her head when, one day one of the LSAs came up to me and she went, Emma, your trousers are hanging off you. And I was like, I was like, are they? And then I just suddenly realized, I was like, I was just living off like two biscuits a day at that point. And yeah, and coffee. And like keeping me going. And then I went home and spoke to Martin because we were not married at that point. And I was like, I just can't go back in. Like every morning I was, every night I was going home and I just felt like crying. Every morning I had just this horrible dread. about going in. And it was just a really awful, horrible time of life. And I remember I had my notice in, went in, says, the thing we're teaching is that there are certain times of year that you have that you can hand your notice in. I was like, literally on that, like I had to decide that day because otherwise I wouldn't be able to, I'd have to wait another whole term to be able to leave. And I was like, I can't be in this job any longer. I I just kind of, wrote this letter and I handed it in the next day and she just said to me, okay. And I was like, and every kind of, I don't know, you just, I think in that moment I was like, I knew I'd done the right thing, but maybe there was a part of me that was hoping that she would see the value that I'd given the school in the time that I'd been there. I, you know, I, I'd been there six years and I progressed up the ranks and was part of the leadership team and stuff. But yeah. just got an okay. Just got an okay. Yeah. And given how you'd been treated, there was probably a level of expectation that it was going to be, it might have been some response like that, but you would like acknowledgement. You'd like some validation. Yeah. These are all things that I think when you know how much effort and energy you put into a job that we deserve and it should be given. yeah. And at that time, that job was my life. Like I didn't have kids. was, know, me and Martin had not long been together, maybe like two or three years or something. And we were living together, but like that was, that was such a huge part of my identity that I'm Emma, I'm a teacher. And then suddenly it was all kind of like unraveling. And I was like, I don't even know what's happening here. And then, Yeah, so I Remember my dad saying to me. Are you sure you want to do this? Are you gonna be able to? Get enough supply work to live and stuff and I was like I was like, don't know but I can't be here and I have to leave like I can't do it any longer Yeah There comes a point and I was in a I was in a different situation, but the way that I, came about that I left my previous job is in a similar way. When you talk about that, wanting to go home and cry, feeling of dread in the pit in the stomach, not just on a Sunday night, but every night, every morning going into an office and almost feeling nauseous, like just on the way there. There's a physical reaction to that. I can empathize and sympathize with all of that because that's exactly how I felt. And it all came to a head. And similarly, I was seven years at that, at that. organization and I cared and it hurts more when you care and you're not getting that acknowledgement because you put more in, you put energy and blood, sweat and tears and to not have that acknowledged is you take that personally. It's really hard not to. But I left, I left in the same way. I had get out of there. I had Finlay at the time, so there was responsibilities as you would have had, but I had a mortgage and bills and a child. But I knew that if I was to salvage any part of my mental health moving forward, that decision had to be made. it's quite liberating in a way. Yeah, it was liberating and scary. was like, yeah, but I think you know, don't you, when it feels right and stuff. And so I only had to work another six weeks in the school. But like after I handed my notes in, she left me alone. So I was just allowed to just, just, just teach and I just stayed out of the way. And when you work and you notice, did you have any regrets? there a time at all? No. And that's, that's when you know, you've done the right thing. even one. I could, I was, do you know, the only thing that I was feeling sad about was that the, people that I worked with were just amazing. It was like a family and working in the school that I was in at time, was quite a, is in quite a deprived area. And so their children came in with a lot of like needs and you know, troubles and things like that. so we all as staff just pulled together because these kids needed us to be a family. so we were like, yeah. And, and that is the only thing that I felt sad about was that I would be leaving that, like leaving those people behind. But I needed to, and actually after I left, everybody else left. I feel like someone might have left before me, like, yeah, like after, the next few years, like, yeah, each one just kind of, yeah, left and stuff. So what followed was supply teaching. that was brilliant because that, that gave me all my confidence back. I would say, initially it was kind of like, I just need to do this to earn money. Like I can't, you know, I've got mortgage pay, so I can't not. So I went into, yeah, supply agency signed up and then she would just literally phone me up at half past seven in the morning and be like, can you go to this school? And I'm like, yeah, okay. Like just, you know, hop out the door and off I went. And then after a while, I had schools calling me back regularly because they liked me. And I was like, and I just started to like realize that I was like, yeah, I am a good teacher. know, like, because after such a long time of being told your shit, which was not true, like you just kind of, I don't know, like you start to believe what other people tell you, don't you? So I just- That inner narrative, that inner voice starts to go, maybe I am. Maybe I am, yeah. Yeah, sort of thing. And so- Yeah, so this supply teaching was brilliant. And then I had a couple of schools that would, yeah, like have booked me for big blocks of time and stuff. And then I'd have like a few other schools that have caught me in for like one, you know, one off days and stuff. And then eventually a job came up at one of the schools I really loved working at. So was at the time I was covering someone on their maternity and I said, can I have a job please? And, and they just said, yeah. So then I, but it was a, it was a nicer school. and the staff were much more professional, like the management, sorry, were much more professional. And, yeah, it was much, it was a, it was such a different school though, because this was it like in a much more wealthy area. and so. Yeah, different in that kind of sense, but it was, yeah, it was really nice. that, and at that point I'd got to a point in my own mindset where I realized that, my job needs to work for me as much as I work for my job. Like I felt like in the beginning of my career, I just poured myself into it constantly until I was like, there was nothing left of me. And then after doing supply teaching and getting my confidence back up and realizing actually I wasn't crap. that. yeah, like this job was, it is just a job and like, and if I leave, they'll find someone else. Do you know what I mean? Like, so, and I think that's, I suppose that's one of the good things in teaching is that there are, there's always a need for teachers. Like, so I didn't necessarily feel like if I left, there would be nothing more for me. If you see what I mean. How old were you then? When I left. When you got the new, when you. when you haven't got the new full-time job? I was 26, I think. just, no, 27. I just found out was pregnant with my first child. yeah, trying to think. 27, I think. It's a good time to have that realization about work and making it work for you. Because so many of us go through life pouring that energy into something that isn't giving, isn't working for us. So to realize that you needed to get that balance and have that focus, that 27, I think is a healthy thing to have happened. But you had to have gone through the experience that you had to go through. It's a way through that to come out the other side. Talk to me then, because we're still talking about the kind of traditional education set up, aren't we? A big part of the conversation at this stage, I think, is the chicken and egg thing for me. I think about... when we introduced the Montessori, did that happen while you were working in a traditional education set up? That's what happened. So talk to me then about how you introduced it and how that had an impact on what you were doing. this is, it always makes me laugh this because my degree was primary education. So part of that degree was learning about Montessori. I don't remember. I don't remember that bit. Do you what your view of it would have been at that time? mean, if you can't remember it, I would imagine you're not putting too much stuff no opinions, but I just remembered. I discovered my story when my son was about one, I think. And then I remember thinking, how did I never know about this? This makes so much sense to me. I feel like I've missed a trick here in my career, sort of thing. And then I talking to a friend of mine who I trained with and she was like, you know, we did learn about that. And I was like, did we? That's how much it stuck with me. was like clearly what's an important to me at the time. Can I jump in and ask for anyone listening to this now that doesn't know what Montessori is, can you give me a really snapshot of what it is just so people understand? We're going to talk about it more, but just at this point. So Montessori is a method of education, very hands on. the child is encouraged to kind of like have as much freedom and independence as possible. So they, you know, it are, yeah, basically, we encourage them to kind of like learn things through playing with objects and stuff, rather than just kind of sitting down and writing all of the time and things like that. So yeah, all of the skills that they learn are all through like hands on learning and stuff. I feel like I've really not explained it very well. I think it was a brilliant explanation. And the thing is it's such, it can be, it's hard to disseminate in something so simplistic, isn't it? Because whilst it is, again, I'm coming at this from a position of ignorance, which I think is actually quite a good position to come from because a lot of people listening to this either, haven't heard of Montessori or have not considered a world where they are, you know, their kids are being educated in that way. So to put you on the spot and ask, Can you give me a definition of what one saw is slightly unfair, but I think it's important to fill the gaps for anyone that hasn't ever heard of it before. But you introduced it when your son was one. Do remember how you introduced it? I do. Reintroduced to it. Basically what started it, the whole thing of was there was so much clutter and crap in my house. was like, I need to sort this house out. So then I came across this. decluttering method called the Konmari method. you heard of it? I've definitely never implemented it, but I feel like I've heard of That changed my life a bit. And then, so I got rid of all the crap out of the house, got to the toys section and then I was like decluttered them all. And then I put on the Facebook group that I had done. you know, the toys and someone said to me, look up the Montessori method. And I was like, okay, that's so like looking it up. And I'm thinking, my gosh, like this is amazing. I've never heard of this before. So that was kind of like the point where I'd heard about it. And then I just became completely obsessed with it and was like researching all of the time, following people on Instagram. I did courses. I just read books, just wanted to learn every single little thing about it. And what was it that resonated with you about it? Just, just the whole kind of like, well, so he was a toddler at the time. So for me, it was like, like involving him in like everyday tasks, like the cooking or like get, know, making his sort of play area, like actually functional. So rather than it being a play kitchen, make it into an actual kitchen that he can actually use and stuff like that. And the fact that, having the toys. on the shelf visible rather than in these big toy bins, which I previously had with like toy boxes, made it more accessible for him. So he's more likely to go and play with it. And I was like, my gosh. Yeah. These are, these are all these little things kind of like made a lot of sense to me. And so, yeah, I just kind of wanted to learn more about the methods and stuff. So how did that start to have an impact on the, the environment you were teaching in too? Did it start to spill over and did that start to change your mindset? Yeah, because it was more about the communication side of it to me. It's the way that I was communicating with the kids and stuff. A lot of my teaching degree was about how to handle a group of 30 kids and how to get them to do the things that you want them to do and behave in a certain way. So there's a lot of using sticker charts and stuff like that, but then learning about Montessori. made me realize that actually none of that is necessary if you provide the right environment for the child and the right activities and the right interests and things they would, they don't, they don't need to be persuaded to take part. Yeah. Like they don't need those stickers to be like, yeah. If you do this and you get sticker. so it kind of like, yeah, it did overspill into my teaching because I remember like they, at the school that was at, they had a big. behavior policy about, know, like, have to give this amount of stickers for this or whatever. And I just did none of it. I just like was like, yeah, forgot to do that again. I just, yeah, ignored the behavior policy. But my class were, they were not badly behaved. They were the probably best behaved class. And I feel like we had like, because I was not controlling them in the way that they had a lot of autonomy, a lot of choice and stuff, you know, I was not giving them stickers to behave a certain way and stuff. So I was not in control of them. you see what I mean. They had, we had this kind of really mutual respect and stuff. So even then the naughty in that e-commerce kids, like the people, the children that other teachers were finding difficult. I just had no problem with because they knew that they were being treated fairly and listened to and stuff. Do you see what I mean? Yeah, I do. And how was that viewed by your, by your peers? don't really know to be honest. No one really mentioned anything to me. No one said anything like, why are you not using the behavior policy? What are you doing? I don't really remember. No. I just didn't know. Because if the way you're doing things, I guess it's not so radically different that it would stick out like a sore thumb at that stage. But at the same time, it is different. You're going sort of circling around the behavior policy, which sounds like it was the right thing to do. guess they'd be more bothered about the results. If you were missing the behaviour policy and all your kids were becoming feral, all of a sudden, Emma, can you please start introducing the stickers again? if that's not happening. that's the thing. And I just knew that it was not necessary. So I just did what I wanted. I listened to a couple of podcasts, episodes in preparation for this conversation. Not enough, but some. And someone defined a high level monsoori as or part of it as being able to translate for kids too, in terms of when it comes to communication, like, or in that Montessori type environment, that Montessori learning environment is not, it's almost looking at what children are doing and some of their behaviors and then helping them translate what that behavior actually means. Is that any link or is that just more, that's not necessarily a Montessori thing, but maybe it's. something that's more prevalent in that environment. It is more kind of prevalent in that environment in that you're helping the child to understand themselves and other children. Rather than labeling a child as naughty or that behavior is not quote normal or helpful, it's actually helping them translate how they're feeling, that emotion at the time. So you kind of work backwards in a way. So the behavior is like the end result. And then you're working backwards to figure out why they're behaving in that sort of way. So, you know, if you look at, I don't know, a child that's kind of, I don't know, maybe they've come into school and they've like, they just throw their bag on the floor or what have you, you know, some people might think, well, that's not acceptable. But actually, if you, you work back through their morning, perhaps they haven't had their breakfast or perhaps they haven't had an argument with their parent on the way here and stuff. And then suddenly they're just shoved through the door. And so you just kind of have to like work your way back and work out. you know, what the cause of the problem is, and almost like ignore the behavior because that is just like, that's almost like the last resort. the byproduct of like the something that has happened and then yeah, then you work on the thing that is the issue. The reason I asked that is that class sizes in traditional education system, am I am I right calling it that? Yeah, traditional education. Yeah. So if in a traditional education, traditional classroom with the class sizes we're seeing now, like in my primary school to 30 kids in that class. I can't imagine that teachers are always going to have the bandwidth to give that individual focus that you might need to have more of that approach that we just discussed. And there are so many teachers that will try their damned hardest to do that, but you're just under time pressures. realistic is it? exactly. Once they get in, I remember they get in at 9.45, by nine o'clock we had to be in assembly. So if you've got like three kids that need your attention in that time, you've also got to do the register and you've got to get everyone lined up ready for an assembly and to be quiet and stuff. you cut like you're so time pressured and you know, there are so many funding cuts as well in schools and stuff. Like I remember at the beginning of my career, everybody had an LSA, but you were lucky at the, by the time I ended up leaving teaching, you were lucky if you had one really and If you did, it was probably only because they were with a one-to-one child. yeah, it's just that the funding cuts were insane. yeah. you start this journey of discovery with Montessori, like you get the bug, you start doing courses, you're reading. I think you describe yourself on your form as someone that loves to do research as well. a bit of a geek for reason. I just love it. I just love like, I just... love learning new stuff and just learning about like why kids do certain things or like, you know, I don't know. Just love. Brilliant. What a quality to have in the profession that you've chosen yourself, the world that you're operating in too. It's definitely not a bad thing. It works really nicely. And when then do you start to get this feeling in your head that Montes is going to be a thing? So you're still in traditional education, you're still teaching, you've got a toddler. Yeah. So this didn't come for another few years actually, where I was, so I was just sort of finding out about Montessori and just kind of like weaving it into my life and stuff. And then it wasn't until my second child coming on my daughter and I was on maternity leave. And I think this happens for a lot of women on maternity leave where they just start like questioning their life choices. I've seen it. I just think it changed. But no, think for a lot of women on maternity leave, you just get inspired by new things and want to try something different and stuff. And there was a friend of mine who said to me, she just wanted to get out of teaching. And I was like, yeah, I I'd like to as well, really. It's such a funny one because I kind of knew my whole career, I knew that. I wouldn't be in teaching forever. Like it was never a forever job. Like, yeah, even right at the beginning, I just thought I'm just new for myself that it would, it would be 10 years max. And I was actually there for 13, but like, so it's close enough, but without maternity leaves, maybe it was closer to 10. But yeah, it's just funny like how you just kind of know these things anyway. So, she said to me, like, she wants to get out teaching and, know, did I fancy setting up this kind of like holistic. tutoring kind of business sort of thing. And I was like, yeah, that sounds really interesting. And we had a lot of meetings and stuff. And my daughter was probably only a few months old at this point, sort of, yeah, it was like talking about it lot and then set up these kind of like, like activity groups, I suppose. And initially for older children, and she was secondary trained and I was primary trained. So she, she decided she was going to do like some older kind of groups like I think what she did now, she did like a crime scene investigation type thing and some other bits. And then I was like, well, I quite fancy doing a Montessori style group for like little ones. And yeah, about six months after we just kind of started all of this, she decided she actually wanted to go back into teaching. So she got a job. And I said, well, I actually really want to carry it on. she'd lit a spark. I was just going to keep going. so yeah, so we agreed that, you know, that I would take over everything I rebranded as Monty's and, yeah, that's just kind of how it started really. And I was still, I was running it alongside actually teaching for about six months. And then I was in a. coaching session with someone and she went to me, so when are going to leave teaching? And I was like, I just don't know. Like, just feel a bit scared. And she's like, well, what about your like job share? You know, what if she leaves before you do? And I was like, she can't do that. And she was like, don't you think you need to have your notes in? And I was like, yeah, I think I do. Because I was going to do it anyway. She was just a bit like, put like, why, why are you taking dragging your heels? Why are you taking so long? so yeah, so then I just had my notes in and I left COVID. left. Yeah. So then that worked really well for classes. I remember at a time, cause I think I'd started following your, your page or definitely started seeing more of what you're putting up on Instagram and probably in retrospectively cause part. Sophie worked with you for a spell too. And I was looking at some of the classes you were like trying to get that working during that time. Again, I promised in season three, I wouldn't talk about the pandemic too much, but it's played a pivotal, no don't be silly, but it's played such a pivotal point in the last four years. can't get away from it. Four and a half years now, it's crazy to think how much time has gone. Where in the chronology of you kind of stepping off and going, right? I'm going for it. leaving your full time, I know your job sharing at the time, but leaving that job. When did the pandemic start? were through that. I handed my notice in November 2019. could have technically, I could have left it Christmas, I think. Or maybe it's October, I don't know. So could have technically left it Christmas, but I said to them, no, I'd leave it Easter. But then obviously by March we were in pandemic. So, so was like bio over zoom. It's weird. what, what feelings are going through your head at that time? Like, you know, you've pulled the trigger, you know, you're committed to this now and there's financial implications to that. are, I mean, that lot of self doubt can kick in. I was similar sort of time. I started the business in September, 2019 and then six months later I'm told that like, recruitment is not the number one priority for a lot of people. So yeah, and I remember how I feel, but how did that feel at the time? I actually remember it just being like almost like a challenge that I could rise to like in a way, I'm sorry. It was though, because I suddenly could see that all of these parents were suddenly like, fuck, I'm at home with my toddler all day. What the hell am going to do with them? And I was like, I've got loads of ideas. I've got loads of ideas. I know exactly what you can do with them. So I started a WhatsApp group and it had hundreds of people in it and I would send an activity every day. so that, you know, not everyone did it. It's fine, but like they, you know, could pick and choose and stuff. So then they were all there for them to go back to if they wanted to. Yeah, it was inspiration. Yeah. And then I also did a little, was called seven day, I know it's five days of sensory play or something like that. And it was like a five day kind of like challenge or I suppose like where everyone got an email every day and they were so simple, like these activities. was literally like, go for a walk with your toddler, but go at their pace rather than your pace. every time they pick something up, you're going to really marvel at that object with them, even though it's a rock and it's really boring. to them, it's the most fascinating thing they've ever seen. I got interject with, I was listening to a podcast the other day and it made me laugh so much because it really reminded me of both my boys, but they said, yeah, if I had kept every rock that my kids pick up, I'd have a quarry in the back garden. Because it's so true. But I love that. I love that. It's much more like this mindful approach. Yeah. And I was very much of the, like, what I want to teach people is that you don't actually need toys for your child. And so that's a big part of like what we offer, you know, the kind of advice and stuff that we sort of offer at Monty's and stuff. But yeah, like, so at that time I was kind of like, look, don't, I know you, you know, you're all at home, you're not spending money on going. your train fares and stuff and you've got extra cash. Don't spend it all on toys. You don't have to do that. Like you don't have to go out and buy loads of new stuff to entertain your kids at home because there is so much stuff already available that they will find so fascinating. And so I really trying to encourage people to get outside and especially in the, pandemic where everyone was just like doom and gloom stuck indoors. And it was so, it was awful time. Like, so yeah, so I did this like five day challenge thing and then that then I remember thinking, I think it's about three days in and I remember saying to my husband, I need to have something to offer these parents at the end. Like by the end of it, they're going to want to carry on. So that's where my toddler course came. It was like a moment of like, I need to do this kind of thing. So yeah, so then I offered, it was called Your Independent Toddler. And it was the whole. ethos behind it was to teach parents, like how to allow their children a bit more independence, like know how to play with them with simple stuff and that. And also a little bit of like, behavioral stuff. So trying to help parents understand what is going on in their child's brain at that time of life. These were toddlers as well. and because, know, because when you understand actually what is happening to your child and you know, why they behaving that way? Then suddenly you kind of like you change your own behavior and you're expecting less and then you're able to respond in a much more like holistic kind of way. I mean, so yeah, so that was great. Like this, this toddler course just, it just flew. Like I just, couldn't, I almost couldn't believe it actually at the time because like I'd started the classes, they were going nicely and I was building up a bit of a community then COVID hit and everything stopped and I was like, but I, you know, I've got all this community of people who need help with their toddlers. So I need to like offer them some help. I was just, yeah, like it just started off as fun and I was like, no, I need to offer them more. Like they, they, they want more. And so it just kind of turned into this toddler course and I just, yeah. And then I remember like, I think I ran it twice and the second time I had like 26 people join and I was like, what? Like, and it was for me, it was like mind blowing. was like, I like, don't know. And then I still get people now, like that was, yeah, four and a half years ago, like say I still get people now come to me and say, Emma, that course changed my life. Like, and that's like, that is so like, yeah, what a legacy. Like this lady I saw the other weekend, she, I hadn't seen her for a good couple of years. And she said, You do not know how much of an impact you had on me and therefore my child, like she's so happy and you know, she ended up actually delaying her school start and stuff. And she said, if it wasn't for you, she wouldn't be as happy as she is now. And I like, and I sort of think, that's so lovely of you to say, but actually it wasn't me. you know, maybe I gave you the... in confidence, but you did that. She took the leap with her, know, the leap of faith for her child. that's not my, that's not for me to take away. It's very difficult. And I think it's a typically British thing to be humble and have that humility. But yeah, look, you were the catalyst for her exploring that. So it's a shared. It's almost like, right, I'll share it with you. You share it and feel comfortable doing it. I'm exactly the same. I get, you know, I people where I place them in jobs and they say like, I wouldn't be in this position without you. you're like, all you're doing is facilitate, you're a facilitator really aren't you into taking someone down that path. Yeah. And that you should take that. Yeah. Although I will never do it. So, you should. Okay. So you've, so four and a half years ago, this was. I want to talk about a couple of things when it comes to running a business and being a mum. Obviously you've got two kids, you're running a business. When does homeschooling come into the picture? So firstly, it's actually home educating. It's okay. I'm here to learn and I think a lot of people will be interested in that as well. So home educating. So it's not just me. being pedantic either is that there's actually the two terms are legally different. So homeschooling is actually where the child is still registered with school, but for whatever reason they do their work at home and that's agreed with the school. So that was basically what everyone was doing in COVID was homeschooling. Whereas home educating, the child's not registered with the school and all of their education happens. at home. it's That's interesting. Thank you for defining that because I would have carried on calling it homeschooling without changing that interpretation. It's all over social media though, like homeschooling, homeschooling. the thing is in the UK, the terms are legally different, but in the US, they're interchangeable. Yes. I think a lot of people think that you can just interchange the terms, actually you can't really. it can become a bit of a problem for home educators when the word homeschooling is used for. Well, it is very different, it? It is very different. Yeah. So I understand it. Thank you. Thank you for calling me out on that. No, it's fine. It's a learning moment. So I'll to rewind a little bit because my... So I remember when my son was three, he's my eldest, when he was three. And I was at the time, was like fully immersed in Montessori, like learning about Montessori and stuff. And a friend of mine who I'd not long met actually, Steph. you know Steph, don't you? Sweeping over birth services. Yes, you do. Hitting her birth year. She, I'd not learned her long at the time, but she was also really into Montessori. And I remember talking to her about like schools and stuff because they were... our two eldest children were getting to the age where we would be applying. And she said to me, I think we're just going to home educate her. And I was like, really? Like I honestly was like, why would you do that? Like that's, you know, almost like, I think that's mad. Like why would you do that sort of thing? And, and I sort of looked back and I think, gosh, like, I suppose at the time, like my own, I had no, no idea really what it entailed or. any experience of it at all. My only experience of education was my own education and then my whole teaching career. So it was very one-sided. So I remember this like, really? Like sort of reaction. How did she react to that? Did you voice it at the time or were you- Yeah, no, did. We were always very open with each other. So I was like, really? Like why? Sort of thing. And she's kind like going into a few reasons and stuff like that. And I was like, I was like, okay, this actually sounds quite interesting. And so then I kind of like, it just kind of like threw a bit of a curve ball in because I was like, hang on a sec. We are just at the point where we need to start looking at schools and I feel unprepared because suddenly there's this other option that we haven't even explored, like we've got, they had no idea about. So I was then frantically kind of researching and stuff, like how it all works, adding myself to Facebook groups and listening to blogs and podcasts and reading blogs and blah, blah, blah. And, but, and so I got myself to a point where I was like, I actually, like, I'm not just following my friend's lead because I like her. Because I actually do genuinely think that. Judging on its own merit. Yeah. This is something that sounds really, really amazing. And I feel like it would be really enriching to our lives and stuff. Then I was like talking to Martin about it. And initially he was a bit like skeptical. I just don't know about this kind of thing. And so because the date for the school applications was looming, we were feeling like under pressure to make a decision right there. So then what we said to us, we were like, right, okay, we just apply to the local school because that's only like two minute walk. And then if, you know, we decide later on the line, down the line that we do want to educate, sorry, if we decide later down the line that we do want to home educate him, then we can just change our mind. Like there's no, and you can do that at any point. So yeah, so he applied and then. we, I don't know, just things just kind of, we had a few conversations with some friends and family and stuff. And we got a lot of like, you can't do that, like kind of reactions. And then I think that gave us the wobbles a little bit. And then we just kind of, yeah, like, I don't know, just kind of got swept up with school stuff. And then suddenly we bought the uniform and he was, and you're taking this photo of him by the front door and like, like my eyes are welling up sort of thing. And then he's, then he'd gone. And so that was September, 2019, when he started. and yeah, so that was all kind of happening at the same time where I was like starting my own business. He was going to school. I wasn't necessarily a hundred percent on board of it. and I really felt like we just were giving it a go, I suppose. And then when the COVID happened, I. just took that opportunity and was like, I'm just going to go for it. just gonna, we're gonna ignore all of the emails that school's And with all these like these worksheets and stuff, and we're just going to do whatever he wants to do. And I remember that whole summer, he was just obsessed with sharks and we were just constantly reading about sharks and doing projects about sharks and you know, like putting words all around the garden for him to like go on a treasure hunt with and stuff. And my daughter was like, one and a half at the time as well. So she was kind of half joining in and it was all like messy and weird and there's, you know, cause COVID was weird, wasn't it? But it was like just what we needed at that time. It's like a weird kind of feeling because like, I remember feeling like we were so lonely. Like I have got a close relationship with my mum and dad and so not seeing them every day was really hard or like, you know, most days. and, but I was also like, felt, I don't know, quite sort of excited about the opportunity of like, you know, all of the things we could do just us at home. So, yeah. So that's where kind of like home educating kind of started really. Like in a way what a great time to have that kind of proving ground to try it out and see if A practically it works. The biggest. barrier when I hear about home educating is the practicalities of it. I can see the benefits. I can really see the benefits of it. And your approach and that kind of child led learning. I see when I let, I'm talking about Finley, cause he's a little bit older and he's gone through the school system, but I see what happens when I allow him and I follow his lead. And I see what that brings out in him. The biggest barrier is the practicalities. of running a business myself, my partner wanting to work. How the hell do you make that work? What a good testing ground for that to happen. Yeah. You just, don't even know at the time like how I managed it all to be honest, because Martin was working full time for working from home. So he was around, but he wasn't really around to help. Yeah. You know, and I had two young kids. And I was also trying to like run these WhatsApp groups and this course and stuff like that. I'm like, so a lot of, a lot of Saturdays, I just devoted to work evenings. and then yeah, like home ed stuff was just, it just naturally occurring really, because he was so young anyway. It was just all play, play. And so when did you pull the trigger to actually make it home educated? That happened in the June, 2020. So he, yeah, so all the schools closed in the March. And then, and then they started to reopen, but there was a choice. You didn't have to send them. And I said, no. And then it was the June, I think. I'm trying to remember now exactly how it went, they, yeah, at some point that summer, I think they were reopening. And then I just handed the note handed in the deregistration letter. What did it feel like at the time? I felt sick. Like I actually emailed them to start off with and it got ignored. And then I sent a letter. That was so funny because I sent a letter, but I sent it special delivery. to the schools, but I was sending it from the post office. was literally like two minute walk from the school. And the lady behind the counter was like, are you sure you paying six pound here? And I was like, yeah, I definitely want to send this special delivery. Cause then I had proof that it had been delivered. like, yeah, so that was so weird. Yeah. I remember like, when I was going to send the emails, like I was like, Martin, I can't press send. I was like, I can't do it. And he just took the phone from me and sent and he was like, see, I've done it. I'm like, there's like having palpitations. Looking back on that moment, because you said when you first addressed it with Martin, there was some questions or reservations. Were you both completely on the same page when you got to that point? Yes, 100%. Was Martin a little more behind the curve than you in getting there though? Did you have anything convincing to do? No, no, because, and I always think that if you've got convincing to do, then there's then perhaps there's a little bit of a problem and you need to kind of like work through that first. so you both need to be fully on board. definitely. And, but also you both need to be willing to hear the other person as well. And I think that it's not really fair to kind of like just shut the other person off. That's just good relationship advice. Try my best. I've been a wife now for nearly 11 years. again, is the responsibility shared or in part shared with home educating? did you take the role to say this is because of obviously what you've done for a living for 13 years, did you take that role and say, this is going to be my job? Well, we never really had a sit down discussion about it. I just like, I just naturally took it, took the majority of it on, think, yeah, based on my career and my passion for Montessori and blah, blah. But over time, he, I mean, he's so good with the children, like he's very responsive to them and like does, you know, like he, he naturally just kind of like, you know, adds in learning opportunities, like without even realizing it. And that's the kind of thing that You know, I was trained to do years and years ago, but he just, it's like, hang on a sec. didn't agree. Anyway, he, yeah. So I don't know if he's just kind of. Pick that up through watching me or what have you, but he just seems to be really good at just naturally kind of taking these opportunities, but you know, practically time wise he's around less because he works full time. but when he is around, he's, you know, taking. opportunities to do stuff with them and stuff. And sometimes he'll have like days off work and he'll take them to their groups and whatever, or you join us on our nature walk and stuff like that. So it's just nice. It's just, it's just, even though I suppose I'm taking the lead, but it is still our shared responsibility because you know, it's not, you know, like it is in parenting generally anyway, like, you know, you're not just because someone works more hours than the other. doesn't mean that the other person It's a joint venture, isn't it? How do you set boundaries when you're doing home education? for me, I dropped, dropped, finished off at school, picked them up from school and that's school done. And yeah, there's learning moments, but not, in, I would imagine the same kind of way in which you're doing them, but do you focus on boundary setting? Is there something like a the start of the day. you mean with the children you mean? I sorry, I do mean with the children. Yeah, we'll talk about how you set boundaries between work and life in a second. But yeah, with the kids or with your approach to learning at home, is there something like a start time and a finish time? No, it's all very, that's one of the lovely things about it is it's all completely your choice. And some people, so for some home educating families that does work like having a set structure of like, you know, We do this at this time and this at this time or what have you. But for us, we, so the term is unschooling. So it's basically, it sounds like you basically do nothing all day, but it's not that at all. Like it's an actually, it's actually like, it's actually a real thing. Google it. So unschooling is essentially it's like child led learning. And so it, what it. to look like from an outsider looking in is a child that's just playing all day. But actually there's more, there's loads going on behind the scenes. So as a parent, my, what I will be doing is something called strewing, which is like setting up kind of like interesting kind of activities and stuff, just to kind of like leave them around. So for instance, last, was it last week or the week before I set up, you know, a conservatory, an art sort of activity. like an invitation to kind of explore basically. So it's kind of a tray that had like loads of interesting kind of artifacts on it like fossils and pine cones and flowers and a melon that I'd grown in the garden and some bits and pieces. And then I put some paper and some out. But at no point did I say, come on, we're all doing art. That's just that because that's not in line with unschooling philosophy. It's the whole thing is that you provide the opportunities and then the child chooses and my daughter, she, after I'd set it up, I set it up the night before and she saw me setting it up. And then the next morning she knew that we were having friends rounds and I said, you know, I thought that some of our friends might like to, you know, do some art and stuff. she, sort of standing there, she's like, I really want to do it now. I'm like, you can do it now. You don't have to wait. It's fine. But like, that's like seven in the morning, you know? So like, it's kind of, it's. It's like, it just, I suppose if you think of like school, school starts at nine, it finishes at three, but with home educating, it's all the time. It's any time. So really you don't have to be constrained by timeframes or, or a timetable or anything like that. Unless you've got like specific places you need to be like groups and trips and stuff, but like you can just do it however you want to do it and whatever works best for your child. And I think that's the key is that it needs to work. for your child and for you as a family. and it does take a while to get into a rhythm of like what actually works and stuff. And also as they grow and they change and they need to change your rhythm changes as well. So you need to be able to adapt as well. That's an interesting point. Also the whole nine to three thing was introduced at some stage, wasn't it? It doesn't necessarily in the same way in your working day, there are peaks and troughs throughout the day where your energy levels, your... Your cognitive ability to deal with certain tasks changes and fluctuates. So why shouldn't we be working? I find I'm much more creative in the morning. I struggle at night. forcing me to be creative in the evening is not the best way to do it. That's when my brain starts to shut down and go into different tasks. So why wouldn't it be any different for our children? So I look at what you've done with a lot of inspiration. Like I said, my biggest questions around the practicalities and almost like, God, I'd love to be able to do that. the hell do you make that work? And the insight you're giving us is that, it is work. It does evolve. You have to find a way that it works for you. I just think it's really inspiring what you've done. Thank you. I also, yeah, I'm also like how you're making that work is always a big question for me, which is great. It's amazing to see it, but maybe there's a bit of envy there. I want to be able to do it and maybe just pulling the trigger and doing it is the thing. Yeah. Like I think you just kind of. have to go for it. Like there's always going to be like a little transition period where you just kind of like, crap, like what is happening here? And I think it does take a little while to settle down and stuff. And you find your feet in that. And I think a lot of people, when they first deregister, they're suddenly like, right, let's do this club and this club and we're doing this today. And you know, like, and it becomes way too full on and then they get overwhelmed. and I definitely did that like at one point and, know, when we came out of COVID and suddenly everything was opening up again, I was like, Ooh, we've got all of these opportunities that we can take advantage of and stuff. And it got a bit much. And then in the end I canceled everything. And then we had nothing going on in like no clubs or anything. And I was like, right, we need something. and, yeah. So it just, like I say, like, just takes a little while to find your balance. But I always think there's like, you know, if you want to do something. You just have to think creatively and there will be a solution, you know, and there will be a way that, you know, you're saying that you're, you're my, what I do, but I admire like, you know, the people that are traveling the world with their kids. And I just think I would love to do that. Even just get a camper van and like travel around the UK. Like I would love to do that. But for me, I'm just like, like you're saying, like it's a practicality. It's like, I need to get my head around. how that would work and stuff. Like I'm not leaving Monty's everyone by the way. I guess the way you've chosen to educate your kids allows that flexibility and freedom. The business binds you a little more, doesn't it? To a physical location in that you have responsibilities outside of that too. how, Gunnion, how do you balance that? What is your approach to work life balance? Cause you, Monty's is something you're so clearly passionate about. And so clearly you've got so much love and energy. do you it as you want to pour into it? Yeah. When you've also got this big responsibility at home too, how do you put the boundaries between the That's something that I've really struggled with for such a long time because, and I feel like I've only just got to the point and like Montes is five and a half now. I only just really got to a point where I feel like the balance is right. And so, and I think that, yeah, it's just taken a long time to kind of really kind of find a way of it sort of, of me feeling like, I'm offering enough time to the business and also giving enough time to my children to home educate them, but also having enough time to be a wife and for myself. Cause you know, otherwise I go crazy like, and be in the garden and I do the things that I like to do. so it's just, it just, yeah, it's been a process to get to this point, but, yeah, I've definitely gone through phases of like doing way too much in the business. And it just basically taking over my life to the point where I was like, I just want to sell it. Like, I literally have like even somewhere I've got a note piece of paper where I was like writing out a plan of what I was going to do to sell the business. Cause I just felt so overwhelmed at that point. so yeah, but it's, yeah, I feel like I've got a quite nice balance. So at the moment I work, I only work on Tuesdays, physically doing classes and then. On a Sunday night, I spend time sort of like prepping and stuff. So then that leaves me Monday nights where if I need extra prep time, I've still got some time. And then Thursday, Friday, make sure I do, sorry, Wednesday, Wednesday, the kids are at their, before school. So then I have, that's my day to myself. and I did, at one point I was working on that day and then I realized I was like, no, this is like too much. Then I stopped working on a Wednesday. And then Thursday, Friday, I just switched off from work completely. And that is me with the kids like fully like with them. yeah, so they, so got like a nice mix of where I've got Monday with the kids, Tuesday with their nan and granddad, Wednesday, they're at their forest school. And then Thursday, Friday, I'm with the kids. And then also, yeah, just a nice balance of work as well. So it is a process though, isn't it? And especially when you start your own business. Again, I've said this in a lot of episodes, but I started it so I could have a better work-life balance. And then it was worse than it's ever been. But I think there's a big difference when you've got autonomy and the stress you're putting on yourself is your own stuff for you. And you can see the benefit of, you know, sacrificing time with loved ones at certain times, if you've got something to show for it at the end. And that acknowledgement that comes from knowing you put that effort in for yourself. Yeah. That's a big thing. Yeah. I think work-life balance is tough, especially when you've got school-aged children. But I can imagine work-life balance when you're home educating is even harder. Cause yeah, I think you've got your nine to three. You can kind of, when I drop the kids off at school, I'm like, take a breath. I can go and now do my stuff. yeah. Yeah. I dunno. Sometimes I think about this and I think maybe, maybe it looks like it's harder, but maybe it's just different. Yeah, I think it's easy to use the word harder, isn't it? But maybe different is the word. Do you see a time as they start to get older where this becomes more challenging or different challenging in a different way? is this what you alluded to earlier that it just evolves? as they get older, just the what you do with them evolves? Yeah, I mean, when we first started, I definitely was kind of like, you know, we'd sort of said like, at least till you know, age seven, eight, we'll definitely home educate. then, you know, but we've always kind of sort of said like, as long as it's working, we'll just carry on and sort of thing. the, but the more we do it, the more I think we need school less, if you what I mean. So we just kind of, and I do think that, you know, there are going to be challenges coming up. I suppose I'm thinking about, you know, in sort of four or five years time, we'll be thinking about things like GCSEs and stuff like that. But you know, all of that's still available to home educated children. It's just that you have to. It's different. It's like, again, it's that word different. It's just done differently. So like some kids will go to the 14 to 16 college in Southend and do like a level one course to sort of get them in and stuff. that, do it that way. Some kids will do a GCSE early or they'll spread them out over a couple of years or whatever. But then also, you know, like when we went to school, we ended up with like 10, 11 GCSEs, which is madness. Isn't it really like, you don't need that. Yeah, exactly. Mrs. Bushel in her geography GCC. She told me I was going to get a D. Really? What did you get? I an A. I was like, I'm going to prove you wrong, your face, Mrs. Bushel. Yeah. And if you're listening to this, it's nice that you're tuning in. Yeah, I think a lot of the time it's just understanding what options are available to you. Because I would never, like again, looking at GCSEs, I would think, right, you've just got to be in secondary school and go through the same process that everyone else is. Do you feel like you have to defend your decision to home educate a lot? I used to, but now I just don't care. I think I've got to the point where I'm just like, everyone's going to have their opinion about something. And sometimes it'll be like a completely ignorant opinion, in which case I'm not opening the discussion with that person because I just can't be bothered. Sometimes people are like genuinely, like if someone's genuinely interested and they want to understand more about it, I am all ears and you know, really like, you know, and actually if anyone wants to message me and ask questions about it, I'm very happy to do that. what I'm not willing to do is have like conversations with people that are just going to be like, you're making the wrong choice. I wanted to give you part of this conversation to have a bit of a forum to talk about, you know, what, why you choose, why you chose this route. But I think that's a really lovely invitation. If there are people listening to this and talking to anyone that's listening to this now, they do want to explore it more and explore it further. Or is something about this conversation that we're having that makes you, know, inspires you to want to learn more than Emma's saying, then you can, can reach out and we'll you links on how to do I mean, there's also some really good resources online as well. Like there's a, there's actually a charity called education otherwise who help families to find. the right education for their child, whether that is home education or an alternative like provision or what have you. So they're really good. if you want to do registering and home educate your child, then it gives you all of the instructions on how to do that as well on that website. So that's really helpful. Thank you for that Emma. Right. We're on the final stretch now. I'm going to ask a couple more questions and then we're going into the closing tradition. I've also introduced, if you've heard Kai's episode, you'll know there's a game that I've introduced on this season too. But I'm going to put you on the spot. What advice, what advice, if there's one piece of advice you could give to a parent that's thinking about home educating, that's on the fence, that's maybe wondering if it's the right decision for them. What's the one piece of advice you'd give them? What's holding you back? Like I think ask you, I suppose I'd come back to it and say, you know, what's the thing that's holding you back? And because usually it's something a fear, isn't it? Like inside us, that's kind of like, you know, what, what might people say, or what if I fail my child or what if it's the wrong choice or what have you. But I think, yeah, the other thing is that no choice that you make ever has to be forever. Like you can always change your mind. And you can try it. And if you don't like it or your child doesn't like it or it doesn't work for whatever reason, schools are always available. So you can always go back to that. it's scary kind of to take the leap sometimes. Yeah. And that leads me to my next question as well, which I think might be the same sort of answer, but what advice would you give someone that's on the fence about starting their own venture? Cause you've made some big life decisions. So All around maternity leave. that obviously going through a midlife crisis? massive period of change, isn't it? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Again, like just, just go for it. Like you, I think you'll always regret the things you never do, won't you? Like you just, so I think if you've got something that you really want to do and you think, like, I mean, I'm the biggest one for holding myself back as well. just like, you know, and it is that fear of like, you know, what if it's the wrong choice and stuff, but. you have to just feel that fear anyway and just go for it. yeah, so. It's embracing that, isn't it? You can't just sweep it under the rug. You can't pretend it isn't there. identify it, acknowledge it, stare at their face and think, yeah, I'm going to have a go at this. Yeah, just do it. go for it. So many people, I think, share that advice and it sounds so glib. Yeah, but I think it is true. Like I've not been able to say in any different way. Like if you get to a point where you've got something formed in your head, like what have you got to lose? What's the worst that can happen? And would you rather regret not doing it than regret giving it a shot? that you'd be asking in a few years time? What if, what if like just, just think that old lady, Emma. Like when I'm in my eighties, I'm look at thinking about her and I'm like, what would she be saying to me right now? That's a really good way to think of it. And yeah, I think a lot of people will listen to advice and think, it's all right for you because you've done it. Yeah. But having that lived experience of if anyone thinks you don't make a decision to go and work for yourself and you aren't shit scared about it at some point, then yeah. I mean, I know from experience that I was terrified about starting on my own. but I don't regret it for a second. And yeah, just ask yourself what if. So yeah, it is really inspiring what you've done Emma. And I thank you for sharing it. And I know, you know, I think with some of the decisions you've made that aren't like your stereotypical, the normal route to go down, I'm using air quotes for anyone listening to this. Yeah. And I think the way you handle it all and the way you've built this community that Sophie was fortunate enough to be part of for a period of time. And there's got such fond memories in that and that anecdote she comes back with. She still sees people that came to that class and she gets so like the smile on her face and the kids recognition, the mums, I think probably more so than the kids recognize her and have those conversations. It's so lovely what you're doing. Yeah, that's really cool. Okay. The last two things. So we've introduced a this or that game for this season. So 10 questions, two options. I'm nervous. Do you know what? I do try and make these. I said on Kaizwan, I try and make these relevant to what you do for a living. And I've tried. All I can say is I've tried. After listening to Kaizwan, I was like, I wonder what he's going to say for mine. Yeah, interesting, isn't it? Okay, we'll give it a go. 10 questions. We can always cut that out. Okay, this or that. Question number one, Montessori blocks or Lego bricks? Lego. Question number two, building with wooden toys or making a fort with cushions? Cushions. Question number three, play session at Monty's or homeschooling morning? Or home educating morning, I should say now. no, that's mean. How can I possibly choose? It's a play session at Monty's. choosing between my children. Yeah, it's Monty's. It's Monty's. I'm going to say it forever. Question number four, in the business or on the business? In the business. Okay. Question number five, routine or go with the flow? go with the flow. Question number six, teaching toddlers or taming parents? Teaching toddlers. Question number seven, classic fairy tales or silly made up stories? Silly made up stories. Question number eight, glitter, yes or no? No, definitely no. I hate glitter. Good. Question number nine, finger paints or coloring books? coloring books. Okay. Question number 10, final one, do you miss parents evenings, yes or no? Definitely not. Absolutely not. Thank you for getting involved with that. thought they were pretty relevant. I do try. I do try. liked it. Right. We're onto the final I'm excited for your mum's question. can't wait. We're onto the final one. Okay. So where's mum's voice note? Let's have a go. I will always apologise. You know my mum better than a lot of guests that come in. So I will always apologise in advance for whatever mum has chosen to say. Let's see if this works. Hi Emma. What advice would you give to parents? who struggling to get their kids to do homework without bribery. Thank you. Okay, so it's kind of like a classic question I think a lot of parents may have. How do get your kids to do homework? My question would be, why do we have homework anyway? There's actually... Evidence that proves that homework makes no difference on your child's academic outcomes. I love that response. In your face, mum. Sorry. Sorry Lisa. No, it's just that, like, I just think they've worked all day at school. Why do they need to come home and do more? Like, just let them chill and play. Like, they, do you know what I mean? I share that opinion. Like, my, again... What we're talking about, sorry, I'm not going to age you mum, but obviously we're a different generation. But I do think this generation of parents probably have a slightly different take on things like homework. I know I do, but I'm very much until, I think before you have kids, it's easy to think, homework is just the right passage because that's what we had to do. And then you see their little brains and the downtime they need. I push back a lot against some of the exercises that get sent home with Finlay. We do the occasional bit of spellings and... because they get tested and assessed on that as well. And he actually enjoys it. That makes a big difference. But if there was ever a time where I said, right, Finn, we've got to do this. And he pushed back and said, I don't want to do it. No way am I making that kid do it. He works his ass off at school. The little pigs are just filled with information all day. The short answer is just bin it off. Just bin it off. I love that. I love that. There you go, mum. Thank you. Did you think it might be a question about school or something? I didn't know. had no idea. Thank you so much, Emma. Thank you. Like I said, it's really inspiring what you've done. think if anyone does have any questions for you, then yeah, an offer to get in touch or to check out the website. How do people learn more about Montes? Yeah, through the website. There's a little synopsis on there of what we offer and stuff. And yeah, if you want to come along to a class. Feel free, we're on Tuesdays in Lee, so it's good fun. Get involved with it. Yeah, we'll put the links to website and your socials on the episode description anyway. Thank you so much. got something for you. what is it? Well, you're going to laugh. I actually... my god. It's a terrible photo of us. is so good. On John McEnroe night. my goodness. I was actually looking for a photo of me and you and two other girls when we were four and we stood in the playground at Grove. wow. I was looking for that. I couldn't find it anywhere and I was like, that one I'll have to do. Right, so Emma's just handed me a photo. Is this me and you? Yes, it's me and you. my goodness. How old are we here? I think about... 20, 19, Really? Okay. So Emma's handed me a photo of us like 19 years ago. Like about 19, 18, 19 years ago. And I'm pulling a face, I'll share this on one of the socials when we publish this episode. I'm pulling a face that I think I must have pulled a lot. Yeah, I think you did. Because I've got this face in a lot of photos. I do not remember, I don't remember your hair being like that. Do you not? No, I used to do... Like hair shows. you remember? I don't know if you remember that. did a hair. That was why it was bleach blonde because I'd done a hair show. Really? Yeah. I don't remember that. A lot of the memories I have of us is dancing next to each other in the brush and your curls flicking me in the eye. I remember that. mean, you don't have to apologize for it, but I remember that vividly. Thank you so much. Wow. Look at that. I'm going to take a picture and share that. You can keep that. Can I really? Yeah, I don't want it. I mean, why would you? Okay, thank you for springing that on me as well. That's really lovely. Emma, it's been a pleasure. Thank you so much. Thank you very much. Thanks for listening to Jobsworth. If you enjoyed this episode, please feel free to give us a follow wherever you listen to your podcasts and while you're there. If you could take two seconds to rate the show, that would be awesome. You can follow Jobsworth on Instagram where you'll get teasers for upcoming episodes, some behind the scenes videos and the occasional bit of career inspiration. And if you'd like to learn more about my day job, then feel free to connect with me on LinkedIn.