Life Behind The Lens

This week I sit down with photographer Mia Davies. During our conversation, Mia reflects on her childhood dreams, the challenges of navigating school with ADHD, and the societal pressures to conform to traditional career paths. Mia discusses her transition into photography, the impact of imposter syndrome, and the ongoing struggle to balance work and family life. The conversation also touches on the transformative experience of lockdown, which led Mia to discover her passion for capturing raw, authentic moments in her photography. Mia and I discuss the profound impact of lockdown photography, the emotional journey of turning 30, and the life-altering experience of a breast cancer diagnosis. We explore the importance of early detection, the challenges of navigating the healthcare system, and the emotional turmoil that comes with all of it. Mia shares her journey through chemotherapy and how photography became a therapeutic outlet during her treatment, ultimately highlighting the power of self-advocacy and the importance of sharing personal experiences to raise awareness.

Takeaways

• Photography became a passion later in life, sparked by a gift from her uncle.
• Support and community can help overcome self-doubt and imposter syndrome.
• Early detection is crucial in the fight against cancer.
• Advocating for oneself in healthcare is essential.
• Navigating the healthcare system can be daunting and frustrating.
• Photography served as a therapeutic outlet during treatment.
• Sharing personal stories can help raise awareness about cancer.

Mia Davies Photography

Just Giving - https://www.justgiving.com/page/miadaviescoppatrek?fbclid=PAZXh0bgNhZW0CMTEAAab4h73z3E0fY8ttLu8-OXrYAxVft-NTXSZH9hOqa247YohtFIO2Dv0qVI8_aem_nYhyUqORTL20rl8ihx41kQ
Website - https://www.miadaviesphotography.com/
Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/miadaviesphotography/
Coppafeel - https://coppafeel.org/

Keywords

photography, motherhood, ADHD, imposter syndrome, work-life balance, lockdown, personal journey, creative passion, family, mental health, lockdown photography, breast cancer, early detection, mental health, motherhood, chemotherapy, self-advocacy, personal journey, photography therapy, cancer awareness, breast cancer, awareness, photography, personal journey, Copperfield, emotional healing, exhibition, storytelling, community support, mental health

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Chapters

• 0:00 Introduction
• 1:46 Early Aspirations and Childhood Dreams
• 5:52 Navigating School and ADHD Diagnosis
• 10:30 Discovering Photography
• 13:11 Transitioning from Education to Work
• 20:30 The Shift to Photography as a Career
• 26:10 Balancing Motherhood and Work
• 38:24 Building a Photography Business
• 43:10 Impact of Doorstep Photography During the Pandemic
• 43:38 Capturing Memories Through Photography
• 49:07 Turning 30: Expectations vs. Reality
• 51:00 The Importance of Self-Examination
• 1:00:26 Navigating the Diagnosis Journey
• 1:10:22 Receiving the Diagnosis: A Life-Changing Moment
• 1:25:06 Photography as a Healing Tool
• 1:28:27 Embracing Vulnerability Through Art
• 1:34:24 Creating a Platform for Stories
• 1:39:00 The Impact of Community and Collaboration
• 1:43:14 The Transformative Power of Trekking
• 1:56:57 Finding Purpose in Adversity
• 2:02:21 Advice for Pursuing Passion
• 2:07:20 Practical Tips for Photograph Preservation

Transcript

0:00

Okay, if this cuts out, I may lose the will to live. But I think we're good together. it keeps cutting out and you think, my god, let's just do this another time, be honest with me. may, if it goes... Welcome to episode 10 of Jobsworth season 3. This week I catch up with photographer and business owner Mia Davies. I was first introduced to Mia's photography in 2020 and I fell in love with it instantly. From the moment we booked her in for one of her doorstep photo shoots during lockdown, I don't think we've ever asked anyone else to take a picture of her since. Her work takes pride of place in our living room and every time I look up at photos of my kids I'm transported back to the day they were taken. It's all a bit magic. But if you've been fortunate enough to be around Mia and her camera, you know exactly what I mean. In this episode we discuss Mia's experience at school with a then unidentified ADHD diagnosis, her search for a proper job after leaving college and why picking up a camera in her mid-20s changed everything. We also learn about Mia's experience facing cancer after being diagnosed just after a 30th birthday. We talk about the signs, diagnosis, treatment and life since, as well as the incredible trek she's just completed with the amazing breast cancer awareness charity Copperfield. A huge thank you to Mia for coming on less than a week after getting back from the Himalayas. You can find links to donate towards her heroic efforts in the episode description. So without further ado, let me introduce you to the unstoppable Mia Davies. So When you were younger, what did you want to be when you grew up? did I want to be when I grow up? I actually wanted to be an actress or a singer or a dancer. I wanted to be on the stage. think I wanted to be centre of attention. that the kind of motivation behind it? I know it sounds silly, but I actually had that dream of being famous. No, not famous actually, but I wanted to be an actress or a dancer. But then there was also a massive part of me that when I was a kid, only ever saw myself being a mum. I really saw myself being a mum and I always wanted, I think I always wanted, there was never a part in my life where I thought, I don't want to have kids. I think that was always what I was getting to. That's interesting. Yeah. We'll explore the kind of relationship between being a mum or a parent with work too, a little bit later down the line. Do you remember the earliest memory, like how old you were when you thought, I'm going to be a mum one day? Yeah, I actually do. I was in my garden and I remember what time of year it was because there was blossom on the tree. And I always used to play with dollies, but I do just remember pushing the pram around the garden and my sister being like, should we play something else? I was like, I just want to be mum for a bit longer. And that was my earliest memory of being a mum and thinking, this is really like, I love this. I really like this feeling. Obviously it wasn't a real baby, but I think that was my earliest... it was actually crying and asking me things, then I might have changed my mind. But no, I remember it really well. So when it comes to feelings of being an actress or being the centre of attention, did you ever go to drama school? Did you go and do those things when you were younger? Yeah, I went and I was done dancing. I loved doing the shows on the Swiss to do shows at the Cliffs Pavilion every year. I loved that. I never done like big roles in it or anything, but I just really enjoyed not necessarily the dancing, the acting, like taking on completely different roles. I just always had that vision of being an actress. I don't know why. I think it was just a dream. I couldn't actually tell you anything serious I wanted to be as a kid. don't think, I don't feel it's a very small percentage of people that can. That said when they were younger, I want to, this is why I asked the question to see if there's any link that lends itself to what you're doing now. Very few people can. Through my teenage years, I have always taken a camera everywhere. I've always taken pictures of, I'd even like would go to Mayhem on a Saturday night, I'll take my little digital camera with me. Everywhere I'd be taking pictures, but I never thought in my head that being a photographer could be a job that I would, not even that I'd be able to do that would pay the bills. I never saw it as a serious job. I think in my head I thought I had to work like in an office or something like that. I'm a little bit older than you Mia, but I definitely think our generation were probably had that drummed into us. That you have to do a job that pays the bills and usually that equates to either a trade or going and working in the city. into an office. was it. Going and working in the city was what I thought I had to do. I had to go and work in London, but I had absolutely no want to do that whatsoever. What was your experience of school like? Like did you... And did you have influences around you kind of pushing you down a certain route? Was there pressure around you to go into the city or get a quote, proper job? I mean, I can't even begin to tell you how many times I heard you need to get a proper job. I, through school, I've always struggled with being in a classroom. I struggled with coursework. I struggled a lot through school. I mean, people loved me. Teachers loved me. That helps, doesn't it? I got asked to go and do a talk at my school the other week and my mum was honestly shocked that they'd asked me to come back to the school. She couldn't believe it. So I've got diagnosed with ADHD as an adult. And now looking back at school, I'm like, my God, that makes so much sense. did a Nazi do so Sometimes I feel really sad looking at myself then, like I want to cuddle my little self and be like, I wish someone had been like... there's a reason that you are struggling the way that you are. Because it wasn't that I wanted to be naughty. It wasn't that I didn't want to do my homework or my coursework or whatever. I physically could not sit there. My brain would not let me concentrate on the things that I was meant to be doing. And I think why now I do my job now and I do it so well is because it's something that I love doing and it's very creative. We had a GP that specialises in ADHD and it really kind of furthered my understanding of it because I think I come from admittedly a position of ignorance as to how it impacts people. But we were talking specifically around adult onset or least diagnosis as an adult. But the schooling system, education in general is not built for people whose brains process things in a non-typical way. yeah, can kind of, maybe that's therapy talking or experience of doing that, looking back at yourself younger and wanting to be like, God, I wish someone knew or God I wish someone supported you in that way. like could cry about, but yeah, when I look back at school and there was a teacher who is now the headmaster of, so I went to Deans, he's now the headmaster. He's the one that asked me to come back and do Well, someone else asked me, but he was there and I was talking to him about it. I used to get told I couldn't be in my lessons because I was too distracting. was too wanting to get up and talk and blah, blah, blah, blah. And also I've always had a really, for instance, I remember once in English at school, one of the, I'm not going to name her, didn't get on with her at all. She wasn't very nice. She was horrible. fact, her saying about someone's school shirt being dirty and like anything like that at school, I'd be like, feel the need to be like, no, you can't say that, which obviously teachers don't like when they have argumentative children in their class. But anyway, I digress. I used to go and sit with the, he was then the head of maths. He's now headmaster. I used to go and sit in his classroom and I feel like if he, Like, it doesn't surprise me he's the headmaster of the school now because his way of thinking wasn't, let's just tell her off and punish her for the way that she is. He would actually talk to me. He would like, let me get out what I needed to get out. Like, whether that be go for a walk, like do this, do that. And then be like, okay, now let's try and he tried and guide me down the right way of doing my. lessons or do my whatever. supported you and nurtured you almost as opposed to you are not fitting between these. You've got to conform and that's it. There's only one way you're doing this and that's it. As he was like, okay, think he could see that he was like, she's got to kind of do this a different way. I think there's a lot of people that I know there's this whole thing about being diagnosed with ADHD now as adults, but I think that's because there is so much more known about it now than there was. especially with women. I think a lot of my mental health issues, if I'd known about having ADHD, would have made so much of a difference. Like a lot. Okay. We're going to touch upon that a little bit more later on if that's okay. I didn't realise you'd had the ADHD diagnosis. it's just interesting as to what kind of sent you down that path. But maybe we'll go back to that, we'll bookmark that. Let's take you back to we're talking 17, 18 in Mayhem with the digital camera? definitely 17, underage, fake ID. mean I was fortunate enough at 16, 17, I was quite tall and looked probably only slightly younger than I do now, so was getting into places. But I remember Mayhem and talk and if you could get out on a Thursday, Friday, Saturday and then back out on Monday as well. That was the dream. Now it's my idea of hell. was that? did you go from being the person that took photos? I would assume you were known as, me or take pictures? And then it would be like, me and wife, you're not uploading all the photos to Facebook on the next day. I'd always be the one trusted to take all the photos. when did that start to become something that you just picked up? Because I guess there's digital cameras that you can pick up, point, click, that's it. Yeah, so they were the ones I used to have, just the little ones that you'd pick up. I would say it wasn't until I had my second child and my uncle, he owns flats and he had someone leave his flat and left loads of belongings behind. on of it, one thing of it was like a proper digital camera. And he was like, my uncle said to me, well, you like taking pictures. Why don't you see if you can do something with this? And I think that was my first experience of having a proper camera. old were you then, Mia? I was trying to think how old I was when I had my second book, my second child, think I was 25 or 26. Yeah. Yeah. Then I had that first experience with like a proper digital camera and I noticed the difference of how these photos look compared to just using my phone or like a point and shoot camera, which actually not saying they're any bad because they're actually great cameras too. but yeah, when I had that and then I thought, I'm going to try and learn a bit more about taking actual, like using an actual camera. And then I got, I think it was my mom or Chris or someone, I think for Christmas I asked for like a different lens for the camera that I'd just done my ADHD hyper-focus, gone mental, researching everything about this one camera that I had and the lenses to use and stuff. Yeah, and got this lens, which was a 35mm lens. And yeah, I never looked back and I used that camera for a good couple of years and then I wanted to upgrade. I never done like a course or anything. was all self-taught of like, I think that was because I become so obsessed with something. that again is one, I guess in this particular scenario is one of the positive strengths of the lady HD brain, it? You're to go down that rabbit hole and keep going until you know everything about it. Fill the gap for me then, because I thought that maybe your journey with going in and researching lenses and getting into the more technical aspects of photography might have started early on just because of how prolific and how great you are at what you do. think that would be a surprise to anyone listening if they don't know you that it really, in the grand scheme of things, hasn't been that long. take me back. So you're at school, you've got your own experience with that because of undiagnosed ADHD or what then turned out to be undiagnosed ADHD. We've got this societal pressure to get a proper job. Tell me what you went from school to do in an office. I left school with not many GCSEs at all. I'm actually am quite intelligent, but I can't, I'm not very good at putting my mind onto paper or doing coursework. So exams aren't going to be your forte, they? Absolutely not. So I left school, yeah, with not many GCSEs. And obviously my parents were very much like, you have to go to college or you need to get a job. I was like, okay, well college seems the easier one, so I'll go there. Went to college and done what I did get one good GCSE, I got a B in art. So was like, I'm going to do art at college then. Where did you go? I went to Southend. Yeah. to Southend college and I loved it. I met some really great people. I didn't finish the college course. I think I got about three quarters of the first year through it. And then it was very much like, I'm just not going to go to say, I'm not going to do this. I'm not going to do that. Yeah, wasn't, I'm not really, was not a good student. I gave my mum and dad hell, I won't lie. Like it was, my teenage years were hell because of my behaviour. And yeah, my, what's the word my mum uses? She says the way that I just, anything she said, if I didn't want to do something, I wouldn't do it. I end off, that was just it. And so I think I didn't finish that college course and I tried about four other college courses. wasn't able to do any of them. tried childcare, travel and tourism. Travel and tourism was a big one around the time I had friends go through college and uni. was like, what are you going to do that? I think I tried a legal, secretarial course. I tried all different things. I think, and I was doing it just because I was like, my God, I've got to stay at college otherwise I'm going to be chucked out of my house probably. What was your parents reaction to this at the time? were they putting... Pulling their hair out. Really? Yeah. It was very much... just what are you doing? But again, I think they come from a generation of, yeah, like my mom done it, my auntie done it, like you get, you finish school, you either go to college or you go and work in London and that is very much it. So it was, well, if you're not going to college, you need to get a job. So I tried to get, well, I did get lots of, I remember going, what was it called? There was a job agency in Southend, Brooke something. something. can't remember what it was called. I just remember everyone needed to go there to try and get a job. My first experience of an office was call centres. I worked in a lot of them. Obviously there's a theme here. I can't hold things down very long. in a way, we're talking about school being like you've got the confines of school, which is sit at a desk, concentrate, which for a neurodivergent brain... It doesn't work that format. But then we go to college, same thing. Then we go to an office, same thing. Concentrate on one job. college, there was a lot more, you get a lot more freedom. Did you abuse that? A hundred percent abused that. That's what I was going to say. just completely... Obviously with school, didn't like people being like, you've got to do this, you've got to do that. where you weren't allowed to go out of that, I suppose I had to... get things done. There was a framework to follow, wasn't there? Yeah, with college, you could just not go in that day. Like your parents actually wouldn't know. Completely my experience. So I just didn't go a lot of the time and then I didn't do coursework. So I think I needed some kind of, not guidance, I think I needed to find what I really loved for me to be able to stick at it. And that's why when I went to work in an office doing call centres again, I didn't enjoy it. So I didn't, I never, I like I'm really painting myself a bad picture. I think your story is very similar to what most, let's say, let's not generalise it as most people. It resonates to me because I had a very similar experience. Although I have to say I did quite well academically at GCSE. So I left, I left secondary school with A's and B's and then I went to college because that's what you did. my friends went and then I did. the subjects that I did well at GCSE, I did at A level. And then someone said to me once in the induction, this is all on you now. You turn up to your classes and if you don't turn up to your classes, that's on you. There's a film on and I got money in my pocket. I can get on the bus and go to the Odeon. That's what I did. I fucked about. I was sitting in the canteen playing cards. went to CVIC. yeah. it's a bit, it's a bit. South End, being in South End College. I'd be like, just going to see McDonald's for like four hours. My mum will think I've been in college. haven't. I never knew until much later in my life, although my mum swears she, you must have known at the time, my mum had to go for a meeting at Sea Week to keep me in. really? if you'd told me, if you'd said that to me in year 11, you're going to be the kid that your mum has to go and save you from getting chucked out. No, you're right. I'm great exams, this is all going really well. College was a huge shift. reason I tell that story is just so you know, I had a similar thing where I didn't feel like I could apply myself because I didn't give a shit enough. And that probably really was the case until I started doing what I do now. It's questionable whether I really give a shit about recruitment. anyway, that I think we go on a journey until we find something that sticks. that sounds like what you're describing. think even if I'd done photography at college, I still don't know if I would have stuck at it. I think I wanted to take my photos, I wanted to do what I do, I wanted to do it all on my terms, I wanted to follow what very much like I do now. I think if I'd been in college trying to learn about how to use a camera and it wasn't on my own research and like the moments that I felt like I wanna... really obsessed with research in this. If you put me in a classroom and I wasn't in that mood of being obsessed with research, I'd have been like, no, sorry, this isn't a bit of me. So it's like education on your own terms essentially, isn't it? You had to find both something you were passionate about, but also the way you could digest it. Yeah, 100%. And I think learning about photography, because it was something I had to physically do, I've learned now at the age of 33. That's how I learned by doing something. If you gave me a book to try and research, I remember being at school and doing revision and being like, I just don't understand because none of this is saying in my brain. I don't know, am I doing it wrong? And I'd try cue cards, I'd try reading, I'd try like, what's it called? Like word bubble, all different things. Nothing ever stayed in my brain. And now I've realized I have to actively do something for it, for me to take in and I have to enjoy it. So was there any part of that experience in call centres or offices that you enjoyed? Or do you kind of look back at that period of your life before having kids? like, just trying to find something, find your way sounds a bit too high don't even think I was trying to find my way. I was trying to stop my parents from hating me by doing something. Because they didn't. Also, sounds like my parents are absolutely incredible. I absolutely love them to pieces. But you're talking about pressure that lot of people probably feel, even if it's self-induced. Absolutely. Yeah, I don't look back at that with any enjoyment at all, actually. I really don't. Even the people I worked with, no. It just wasn't me. mean, the times I could muck around, I enjoyed, I guess. no, I mean, there was one job I done in a call center where I got hardly any calls. So that was great. just chatted to people like that. That one I worked, I loved. And there was about four or five of us on the team and I still remember them people and I've, I had a lot of time for them, but yeah, anything over that. just know. I just, I suffered with, my ass, I have asthma and I suffered badly with my asthma through my teen years. probably because of going out and stuff. But I used to be off of work a lot, probably more than I needed to be, but I played on that, I'm not very well. you know, I'm gonna, yeah, so I just was never, I've just, I don't look back at my teen, I guess it's what, yeah, late teens or early teens, late teens. I don't look back at, I actually try and like avoid even thinking about back to them. Like my sister says, you completely block it out. Like you completely block out what your life was like then. I'm like, yes, why, why are you it up to me? I do. just, yeah. there a specific reason why? Yeah, I was just really unhappy and I used to go out a lot drinking. Like I don't really drink now at all. I don't sit there and be like, I don't drink because it's not like I'm sober because I need to be sober, but I don't enjoy drinking. I don't enjoy alcohol. And I think it's because of how I abused it through my teenage years. And yeah, I just didn't deal well with anything in my teenage years. Relationships, friendships. I think I was on self-destruct mode for like quite a few years. In hindsight now, do you think if you'd been diagnosed with ADHD, that would have made a difference? Do you think that played a role? in how you were feeling and then the behaviours you were getting into. don't necessarily think anyone could have stopped me because no one's could stop me from doing anything anyway. I think now looking back and understanding the way my brain works, think I wouldn't have been so hard on myself. used to think I'm not normal. I am way too much for everyone. And I still think that a lot now. I think people think, my God, will she just shut up, please? I do think a lot of the time now I'm a lot for people. But back then I used to be like, okay, I'm a lot. Okay, I'm just going to get really drunk. And then I don't care that I'm a lot. That self-speak in a narrative is so powerful, isn't it? And you just wonder what you're doing at the time to mask that or just shut it up. or like you say, not care, become a bit more numb to it and then you're like, unashamedly, now you can just take me as I am and fuck off. basically that is it. see you later. Yeah. I thought I'd ask the question because it's just interesting to see. I don't want to get bogged down on Not to diminish its importance in a diagnosis. I thought I'd ask the question and just see if that had any... Yeah, I do think definitely now when I look back, I think there's so much, even like not to go too much into it. Now I understand about rejection sensitivity disorder or something. Basically not being able to handle rejection. I've never been able to handle rejection, still can't now, but now I understand that it's actually a thing. I never understood that when I was younger and say I would have a boyfriend and they'd break up with me, it would be the end of the world for me. It wouldn't just be, okay, we'll get over this in a few weeks. I would go into full depression, really badly. depressed, I used to self harm. I couldn't, that's one thing that I now look back and I think, I wish I'd been medicated. I don't know if that would even help that side of it. That's one thing that I think if I knew about my ADHD then I'd understand why everything felt so felt so, I felt so much. yeah. In so many ways, what you feel on the size and scale of it and how it the empathy, the feeling for others, all these things is such a hugely positive trait in so many ways, especially as a parent. you just have that. then I've seen it, in the work that you do and how much of that exudes out when you're working with clients and doing your photography. And it's such an amazing trait. But yeah, in certain situations, it can open you up to a lot of- really can. lot of shit. lot of heartache. Yeah, just- being bogged down with your own feelings. Okay. When you realised then that office life, the corporate world isn't for you. Tell me when you had your daughter. So you had your daughter, how old were you when you had your I was 24 when I had her. Okay. And this was, I'm assuming at this point you're with Chris, you're in... Yeah, we hadn't been together long though. Okay. It very much wasn't a planned. pregnancy. Just say it that way. you had your daughter and then that was kind of the, did that mark the kind of end of the office for you? think that just, having her ended so much bad, bad times in my life. Like having her just changed my life, which sounds so cliche. I feel like she saved me. Obviously she wasn't planned, but I'm so grateful that she, that it happened. God, I like I'm going to get emotional. I don't want to get emotional. yeah, but in terms of office life, so I actually went back into the office I was working in after having her, mainly because me and Chris decided we were going to have another baby quite soon after. And I thought, well, I get good maternity benefits. So I'll go back there and then we'll see how it goes after that. in having her, and getting given that camera for my uncle, them coinciding of me then using her as like a muse. Yeah, absolutely. I went back into the office job, but taking pictures on the side occasionally, not for money, not thinking I could make a business out of this in any way, shape or form. But where I'd taken pictures of Violet a lot and then posted it on Instagram, it's then like my mum's friends who are like, can you come and do my wedding? Because you take really good pictures and I was like, I can't photograph a wedding, but then doing it because they were like, no, no, you can do it. And then it went back to work after Violet, then got pregnant with Albert. And then after having him, I was like, right, I'm not going back into an office. One, I don't want to be away from my kids that much. I want to be able to work around them. Like now I've got two, like Violet was two and Albert had just been born. Like they were little. I wanted to be with them. And two, I'm just not going back to working in office. I'm a mum now, I'm a real grown up, I can say no. So I was like, okay, I'm going to really try and make something of taking photos. And that is one thing I'm good at. If I put my mind to something, I will do it and I will be successful at it. So I was very much like, yeah, I'm going to make a thing of this now. And I used Violet and Albert as my models a lot. And then my sister had kids and I had friends who had kids. it was a lot of like, kind of photograph your baby. And I remember when I first started, I thought you had to baby photo shoot. actually when you're photographing, I photograph my own how I photographed them in their natural environment. But I thought to make a business out of photography, I had to do... like more posed stuff. I remember getting my- exactly what you mean. The backdrop, the curl them up. I remember trying to do that and absolutely know like the people that do that are incredible. mean, I would utter shit at it. I can't even tell you if I could show you some of those photos of the things I tried to do. And it took me a good, like a few months, not a long time, a few months of being like, no, this really isn't for me doing it like this. And then there was a lady. who asked me to come and photograph her baby, but she said to me specifically, I want you to just photograph us at home, like you photograph your kids. And I was like, okay. that- And you're going to pay me for that. Okay. That I can do. Yeah, and I remember doing that. And then it was shortly after then someone said about setting up an Instagram page. And I was, remember having, what's the word, really bad imposter syndrome. I was like, I absolutely can't do that. I was so worried about like the people from my past, like being like, what's she doing? Why is she doing that? does she think she is? like the voices in my head were like, no, you can't do that. So that took me a long time to even kind of set that up. How did you overcome that? So imposter syndrome is one thing. And I think if you give a shit about what you do, and if you are an empath and if you care, I don't think that ever really goes away. You could be at wherever you are. at the top of your game and still get imposter syndrome wondering when it's all going to crumble and fall apart. get that all the time. So do I. But how do you overcome just those little things in your head thinking, just even set up an Instagram page? Do you know what? actually won a free place on this course called Thrive. It's a lady called Kerry who lives around where we live. It was very much like It was about overcoming imposter syndrome. like, I remember her part of this course being like, right, you need to picture yourself in five years time and write what your day is like. And just all of this stuff. And she used to make us record videos talking to her, like, you know, like a selfie video, which I was like, I can't do things like that. And then we'd put it in these groups and then people would see it. And obviously everyone would big each other up and stuff. that hundred percent was what kind of, I was like, okay, actually, yeah, I can do this. Basically was a course like believing in yourself and thriving. Yeah, all about mindset. And you benefited from that kind of community of people that were there to kind of boil you and give you confidence. Because there are a lot of preconceptions around groups like that. And some people might be listening to this and thinking they want to go and do something and think like, there's no way I'm getting involved with that. not just there to kind of get patted on the back for not having achieved anything yet. I have to say, having started a business from scratch on my own, it's a dangerous place to be when it's just you and you're relying on yourself to give yourself a pat on the back because you don't do that. So to have that network around you, would just challenge anyone that might be listening and thinking, I could never do that. It's a really nice case study for why it works. also it's really nice to have it as an online thing. I don't know if I would been as good in person doing that. There's a security blanket of sorts, there? You're not kind of as exposed if you're sat in a circle or sat in a big room, like sitting around. to everyone else go through and then gets to you and you're like, no, what if I copy what they say? Or they think this or think that, but where Don't take my idea. Yeah. Don't take my Damn it, I going to say that. God's sake. But yeah, when you're I think doing online things like that are really good. And I've never really thought about it, but yeah, I think that definitely was a massive, massive game changer for me. Like it made me overcome and all I was like pushed into no, you're going to do this. You're going to do that. And I was like, okay, okay, I'm going to set an Instagram page up. I'm just going to do it. I'm just going to do it. And then There was no going back after that. mean, can you imagine now trying to get a photography business and a brand built without being on Instagram? absolutely not. There's no way. It's necessary evil, isn't comes off Instagram for me. I've got a website, I don't even know if people go on my website. I've not updated it in a very long time. But the great thing is, the big question nowadays is do you even need a website? Especially when what you're doing is, I was going to say, such a, it is a visual medium. That is your business card. is your portfolio. Everything is there. Anywhere I go, it's like you don't get asked for business cards. You get asked what's your Instagram. Yeah. What are your socials? then that's exactly it. Like I've got business cards that I got printed what five years ago. Never. They've still in my deck. I've got these really beautiful business cards and I just, yeah, I don't use them. Isn't it funny? I spent the first three years of this business without a business card because I thought no one would ask for them. The first event I went to, have you got a business card? And then I got loads printed and I've still got them literally unopened boxes and they're nice, like you said. again, sometimes the barrier to entry on getting business cards, go for the cheap version. If you're not going to do it otherwise, go for the cheap versions. But I paid money to them With even the tabs still on the box. It's just a mad investment, which is a waste. I think hitting go on Instagram must have been the start for you of seeing that following build and then really getting your name out there and owning, am now a photographer. This is what I do. And I think actually people being people liking my work, I think when people are like bigging you up, it gives you more confidence in yourself, I guess. That's the only way to- Were you going to do well? if you're posting stuff on social media, because this is the way our brains are trained nowadays too, you're to do well if you keep going, if after three, four, five, six months, you're not getting any traction, no one's commenting saying this is great, you're not getting any inquiries, like you've got to be a special sort of person to keep- know your shit. I'm joking. Sorry. I'm joking. No, no, no, that was really bad. I actually didn't mean that. If I get off the fence though, Mia, you probably do. that point, if you're not getting any visibility, it's a good barometer. Yeah, it's a good testing ground. But look, think if you'd been there three months down the line, would you have really carried on if you were getting no traction, no engagement, no one saying your work was good? No. It's a human, isn't it? And probably there are signs you need to listen to. Yeah. Like me doing the college courses when I was so rubbish, I just knew, you know, leave this, stop this now. You've got to listen to the feedback, haven't you? Or the lack of it sometimes. Yeah, I'd say Instagram was definitely... Did that mark when you went full time? that was like, God, I'm in. To me, up an Instagram page was basically me setting up my whole business. Setting up Instagram was me starting it properly. Going back, bringing your parents back in again now, but going back to then maybe this kind of like perceived pressure at least to get a proper job. You'd gone through some office jobs. two kids at this stage, what was their reaction when you said, doing this? I don't think there was ever a conversation really. It just happened. The transition was like, it was a bit of a gray area. It happened, happened. here. Yeah. I think it was almost like, well, I've had kids now, so you can't tell me what to do anymore. I'm a grown up. I'm a grown up, even though I was only like, well, yeah, 25, 26. Which I thought I was really old then, but looking back, I'm like, I really wasn't that old. But Yeah, my mum and dad were very much like, yeah, this is really good because this is something you enjoy doing. But I don't think even they knew, like I didn't know that I was going to be able to stick to it I was going to be able to stick to it because I enjoyed it. Like, I honestly thought I was a lost cause. I honestly thought I just can't, can't do anything. I can't do, I can't work. I can't hold down a job. can't do it. I can't get an education. But actually it was just because I wasn't doing, I wasn't taking pictures. It wasn't I wasn't doing something I love. got a vocation, you've got to go on a kind of adventure to find it, you? If that adventure involves call centres or going and doing it. It so much stuff. Yeah, I would say it involves so much stuff. But actually it was now, I'm like, it's because you wasn't doing what you loved. I'm just a massive believer. If you do what you love, I don't feel like I work. which is really hard because I know there's a massive grey area with that. isn't it? It's a privilege. As I say every episode, it's a privilege to be able to sit in a position where you are saying, I can do something I love. And I think if this podcast does anything, it's an advert for everyone goes on their own journey and it takes sacrifice. No one's lucky. You're not lucky to be doing what you mean, years of horrible, horrible. years. have to kiss a load of frogs to find that fruit and you go down the line and then find something that you land on. And that's a really lovely thing. It's acknowledging it's a privileged position, but it's not one without sacrifice and your own struggles to get there. And also running your own business, there's just lots of struggles. Talk to me about that because I was really interested to see the catalyst of your photography business. you've chosen to do that on the back of having two very young children. How did you start to feel like you could invest more time once that Instagram page has gone live? How do you juggle it now as they're older? They're both of school age, your children. Yeah. They are of school age. I have lot of mum guilt continuously. I think anyone the work does is not spending enough time with them because of work. I think when they were younger, I wasn't doing as much. was still very much like they are my priority, always, and they always will be my priority. I think back then where they were so young, was I would do stuff on the weekend when Chris wasn't working. Obviously, I was building myself up, so it was easier to not spend a lot of time away from them because it was the only the odd thing I was doing and kind of building it up. As they got older and as my business has grown, I struggle a lot, a lot, a lot. with not being as present as I should be. Even through, even a couple of years, like through lockdown and stuff like, or even around then I think, I wasn't present enough because I was taking photos continuously. Now I don't even take as much photos of them and I feel guilty because I'm not taking as much photos of them as I used to, but I plan my shoot, like newborn shoots and stuff that I can do in the week. I will plan for obviously when they're at school. I don't tend to do as much stuff like that in the holidays. Weddings, obviously, when they come and I want to do them, I'll do them. But the editing, I would say that's where the guilt sits because that takes up so much time. That is hours and hours and hours. I think people think, we pay a photographer for the time that they're there. That is such a small... It's the post-production stuff, isn't it? That is such a big thing. Yeah. And that's what I... Because I don't switch. I love my editing. I actually love it. You're producing that final product. Like I really, really enjoy it. But because I enjoy it, I find it hard not to sit at my, and if I sit down for five minutes, just like why they're playing, I'm like, I'll sit here for five minutes. But then I get lost in it and they're like, mommy, mommy, mommy. And I'm like, yeah, yeah, we'll, do this in a minute. And then I look and I'm like, my God, I've been sitting here for two hours. And yeah, I've, struggle, I struggle with that a lot. struggle with it a lot. I'll chime in and say, do. Like I think parent guilt is just, and I will say this, think mum guilt specifically is something that you feel a lot harder. That is a generalisation. So I apologise for anyone listening to this that might be in disagreement, but in my experience, at least the mums I'm around and my amazing partner, Sophie, and the guilt she feels, I do think there's a spectrum, but parent guilt in general is It's so hard to get that balance right. And there's so much expectation of our generation as parents, we have to be doing, and especially women, but we have to be all things to all people, keep our shit together all the time. I'm not saying- Not have a breakdown. Yeah. These aren't revelations. This is stuff we all know as parents. But yeah, I'd love a guest to come on and say, yeah, I had parent guilt and this is how I overcame it. If you can overcome it, tell us how you've done it. pay to come on it, but I've spoken to no one that knows the answer yet to getting it right. I think also there's a massive thing of it's so expensive to just live now. there's a lot more of both parents need to work to be able to pay your bills. Yeah, to survive. So it's like sometimes I'm like, okay, if I could take on less work, but I take less work, I get paid less. And then I'm like, okay, well now we're struggling to pay the bills. But there's the cycle, isn't there? Like the two hours you spend editing, know the justification is I'm paying the bills and paying the bills, but the kids have got two hours older and I haven't played with them and now Violet's coming over and she's asking me, now I feel like I'm older. But then they want to go on holiday and I'm like, you want to go on holiday, you've to let me work. It's so brutal. It's really hard. I mean, I honestly lose sleep over it at night. Like I battle with it in my head all the time that I'm not being a good enough mum, I'm not being present enough. I'm not this, I'm not that. But then as soon as I am more present with them, I'm like, God, I've got people that are waiting and I'm like waiting for their images. And I take on way too much work, but I have to pay the bills. That's running your own business. The segway I want to go on is talking about, and I just want to be really honest with you here, the experience that I had of you doing your doorstep photography during the pandemic, it gets me emotional and I don't cry. I think I'm hungry as well. And I get emotional when I'm hungry. like, we have, I sat down with my boys this morning and I said, look at the shelves and they were looking up the shelves and they always ask about these pictures. I said, do know who took those pictures? And I'm like, and they're like, who, who? said, Mia. And I get her on the podcast today. And they were just like, my God, daddy. was like, and they love it. Like I got my son, Finley listens to the podcast in the car. He says, we put it on? Sometimes they'll ask for like, I don't know. Paragrip songs, Paragrip songs, whatever it is, and they're just stupid songs. But then sometimes we'll put the podcast on because I'm listening to it for the edit. You'll this is a really good one, Danny. And I told him today you were coming in. But those pictures to this day that you took and Finley's on my shoulders, like me and Soph, like you documented one of the best times of our lives and it was the most challenging. Yeah. By a long way. 100 % what made me realise that that was the, I'd been photographing babies and weddings and trying to conform to what I thought a photographer should be like. 100 % lockdown was what, I mean, I'd just tried to start a business as lockdown hit. Not the best idea, but I had no idea that was going to happen. But that was, I was like, wow, I can actually go and take these pictures of these people as they are on a doorstep as well. We haven't really got much to play with, but actually I can capture people. during this really shit time, but produce something that actually they're going to look back at and smile and have those photos that I think it goes for so much of what I've done since then lockdown was like the catalyst for that. Like I like to photograph really hard things. Like I liked to photograph really hard hitting raw. situations. Some of the things I photographed were so hard, but I know that them photos mean so much to people that that's what I get a buzz out of. I feel like I need to provide some context because it won't just be people listening to you, listening that know you Mia. So, Mia during lockdown started offering these doorstep photography sessions and they were, like we started seeing smatterings of them come up on Instagram and we knew we had to ask Mia to come and do one. And it was just locked down for us. We still describe as just one of the most contented type and God. was a bit magical. Wasn't it? I know there's people that didn't have, obviously have that experience, but I think for the world to, we'll never have that again. It was, there was no I will say one of the most positive aspects of it is the world stopped. There was no pressure to be anywhere, to do anything, to be someone. There was no spend money, like nothing. It was just, if you were fortunate enough to have a little unit, it was all for you. And that was your focus. And we were in, again, privileged position. But I still remember to this day, you rocking up at the end of the path like a ray of sunshine, just being so positive. those pictures for me, I had to feel bad because Bodhi's not in them, but he wasn't born. we did get somewhere when he was Yeah, we did. We obviously had to invite you back around and do that. But yeah, just they are still to me, I look at them and the kids look at them and they are just so contained with so many memories. amazing. was a crazy time, but being able to go around and do that. So many, I I photographed, I think It was like nearly 300 people on Your step count must have been merged. I remember trying to like, people, I remember one person shared it on Instagram. This lady shared it and she must have had a lot of followers or something and it went insane. And I remember going, like looking, putting my phone down, then looking at my phone and had like 15 people that wanted me to come and do their doorsteps. And I was like, okay, I now need to try and actually work out. when I'm going to be in an area. yeah, I was even having to I remember having to work out like when, what time I was like, okay, what side of the road do you live on? So I'm going to work out what time the lights going to be. I don't want people to be like blinded by the light in their face. I'm like, I want to work it with so your front doors in the in not in the bright sunshine, but then having to be like, I'm going to be in this area at this time. like trying to work out. What a time of year to do it though. That initial lockdown was just a beautiful summer, all spring into summer. was incredible. The weather was incredible. I am so lucky that I get to look back at that with such fondness that time because I know not everyone does. But for me and for a lot of people I speak to and to have that documented in the way that you did it and what I'll do, I'll share when we promote this episode, I'll share my pictures. If you want to look at any of what Mia's created, then go onto her Instagram feed and just digest it. And there's some really hard hitting stuff and we're going to talk about that in second. Just magical moments too. Yeah, yeah. But then I'm like, I do think there was a couple of other people that done it as well. I'm sure I'm hoping you think it's me. yeah, just shows you though, doesn't it? most people would would kind of, yeah, put that label on you, which is great. Yeah. Now, obviously, we're talking about balancing work and being a mum. And now we're to talk about additional I mean, complications isn't the word is it but the additional challenges that come from another experience that you had when you turned 30. So just tell me is it as you turn 30, just before you turn 30. I turned 30 in the August. And I was, I don't know why I had this massive hype in my head. And I'm the same about when I'm going to turn 40, this massive hype in my head of like, I can't wait to turn 30. Like, yeah, I remember thinking, my God, I'm going to have like this massive party. I'm going to do all, mean, I never did that. I don't know if it was it near lockdown. It might just, there was never like a, but I remember being really excited about turning 30 and thought it was going to be like, a life changing, I think because I didn't, I mean, obviously I had fun in my twenties, but I had a lot of bad mental health, like breakup, like there was a lot of shit. And then you became a parent in mid twenties, that is a whole different world of responsibility in your twenties to take And I think because we knew we'd finished having kids, I thought 30 was just this like milestone of like, life's going to be really good. Like, yeah, life's going to be, Great. the next part of it. Yeah, the next milestone. Right. And then you would... And then in the January, I got diagnosed with breast cancer and yeah, I know to say about it. yeah, I just, I do, I actually remember the day I got diagnosed thinking, I'm 30, like, everything's meant to be really good. Like, yeah. I'll let you ask questions because I don't know what to say about it. was kind of like teeing it up to then be able to start this conversation and what I'll caveat all of this with, appreciate this, some aspects of this might be really difficult. So you share what you want to share. But I do know you're an advocate for copper fill and for checking. I think exploring some of the journey as to how the diagnosis came about I think is really important. So talk to me then. This is quite a broad question, but what were the first signs that got you on that diagnosis path? I had signed up to Copperfield. Copperfield are a charity that are, their whole, everything they're aimed at is getting people and like people knowing themselves, checking themselves and getting an early diagnosis. It's like to stamp out secondary breast cancer. It's preventative. Yeah. So I think they're the only charity UK at least, I know for definite, that their whole charity is about preventing a secondary diagnosis and helping people get, they're not a support. Like if you get diagnosed, you wouldn't go to them for support. Like their main focus is just getting everybody to know themselves, check themselves and be wary of what their body is like and being, yeah, just knowing themselves. So I had signed up to their monthly text reminders that they do. They text at 6pm every Monday, every Monday, every first of the month, every month. Whether it be I checked at that moment or I'd look at my phone later and I'd be like, okay, or I'd check in the shower that day. But I always, I always checked myself. So I was very wary of what my breasts felt like. So when I found a lump, which is a very, very generic symptom, there are so many other things that you could find like discharge from your nipples or puckering or there's so much, but for me it was a lump. When I found the lump during my check on that, when I'd had one of their reminders, I was like, this feels new. And I didn't really think much. And also I had had lumps checked about three times before that. I'd gone to the doctors and it was nothing. I think twice I'd been to the breast unit. And they'd checked it. I'd never been scanned, but they'd always felt it and said, it's nothing, it's nothing. And they went and it was fine. This time, again, didn't think anything of it, but I was like, there's a lump. Okay, I'm going to go to the doctor's. And I remember finding it in the shower, but then I remember laying in bed at night, I think it was that night, and just laying down and then being, I must have just brushed past my chest. And I was like, and then where I'd... I had quite a small breast. So I think for me, it was quite easy to feel it. I remember laying and then thinking, wow, that protrudes a lot more. Like when I'm laying down, I can really feel it a lot more. So made a doctor's appointment, went to my doctor's and was like, I found a lump. In my head was just like, it's not going to be anything because I anyone would think that. There wasn't even any part of me that was thinking, my God, what if this is something? And the doctor felt it sitting up. I remember sitting up on the doctor's bed and I said to him, you lay down, you can feel it a lot more. He's like, we don't check laying down. was like, I said, honestly, you can feel it so much more. Can I just lay back? And he was like, no, we don't check. We do this, put your arms up, blah, blah, blah. And I was like... Okay, okay. But can I please, can I lay down in the end? He was like, okay, lay down. And then he felt it and he was like, yeah, I can feel it, but it doesn't feel like it's anything to worry about. I'm pretty sure he said it moves and it feels quite circular. And I was like, okay. He was like, okay, if it's there in a month and come back, said, but I know this is new for me. Like it's not, I know that I check monthly. So I know this is a new thing for me. I know it's not like, I know If it had been there month after month, basically they get you to check the same time of the month every month because you're at the same point in your cycle. whether you're mid cycle, start of your cycle, end of your cycle, you know that that's basically, if you go to the doctor and you say, found a lump, they say come back in a month because you could be mid cycle and because of your hormones, you've produced like lumps in your breasts or whatever. If it's still there, then we'll do something. because I knew that this was completely new for me and this wasn't, I'm checking at the same point of my cycle every month, then I knew for me it was new. he, but the doctor didn't just didn't want to refer me. I don't know why he just didn't want to refer me. And I get it. They probably have lots of people through and I'm like, it's going to do absolutely nothing to you for like, it's not, you haven't got to pay for this referral. Like just refer me. So because of being signed up to Copperfield and knowing Chris, who was the founder of Copperfield, knowing her story of being turned away time and time and time again over years and years and years that led her to when she did finally get a diagnosis, it was secondary and it had spread. But had she had been listened to the first time she went to the doctors, it would have prevented that. And it could have been that she had a primary diagnosis and got better and yeah, so I tried to push back against the doctor. He was not having any of it. He was very much like, just leave basically, was just very much like, just come back. If it's there, come back, blah, blah, blah, blah. And I was like, okay, I remember leaving thinking, I'm really not happy with his decision. Like, I'm really not happy. He did say to me, Obviously if you get really concerned in the meantime, call us and we will see you again. I was like, okay, I think he was just trying to really try and get me out the door. Went home and spoke to my mom. And then I think I went to my mom's house and I was like, can you have a feel of it? I'm actually Whitney who you had on the podcast. I was photographing her before the doctor's appointment that day. And I remember getting her to feel it. And it's really weird because I'd had lumps. checked before and hadn't thought anything of it. there was not that I thought it was cancer, but there was something that I was just like getting other people to check it. Am I being silly or is this real? was something out of the ordinary enough for you to really think. I think because it was big enough for me to be like, you like, yeah, don't actually think I, Whitney's wasn't before the doctor's appointment, it was before the breast care, breast. unit appointment, a member of being like, she was like, it will be nothing. And I was like, yeah, yeah, you're right. It'll be nothing. It'll be nothing. Obviously she was like, you still go and get checked, but we know it will be fine. will be fine. Anyway, went to my mum's, my mum phoned and she was like, no, you ring them and you demand to have a referral to the breast unit. And still to this day, I think, thank God my mum done that because not saying that I wouldn't have gone back because actually from the point of when I found out it was cancer to when I started chemo, that lump grew. And like it was pretty, you could see it through my chest. So like, I think I would have gone back, but I could have gone back and it could have been a lot later on and it could have then spread. So I just think I'm really glad my mum literally pushed me and was like, you ring the doctors now and you tell them you're on a referral. And actually for the first time, and I to be horrible, but I don't really like the receptionist at my doctor's surgery. And for the first time they were actually, okay, we'll get the doctor to do the referral. went to the breast unit. You're meant to be seen within two weeks of doctor to being seen at the breast unit. It's a two week pathway. My appointment got canceled twice. So I think we were sitting at about three and a half weeks by the time it was over Christmas though. I'll give them that. Like obviously everything shuts down for Christmas. So was beginning of December that I found the lump and then it was By the time I got my appointment, so two appointments were cancelled and then I was ringing up saying, if you get any cancellations, can you fit me in? I think because of my age, which I will say as well, the doctor was very much on you're only 30, it's not going to be anything, it's just going to be hormones. Made me, I hate to say it, but he made me feel very silly for being there. And I think that's the only reason I ended up leaving without him referring me. Because actually I went in there with everything like not thinking it's going to be cancer, but being like, no, you need to do what I say armed with what Copperfield all about. Like you need to advocate for yourself. You need to push doctors to do this, that, whatever. But it's easy. I would imagine in that moment for the comments that he was making today, just feel like he's diminishing the The size of this thing that I've got in my head about this and he's diminishing it and he's making me doubt myself. believe doctors, they're medical people. I this conversation the other day. think, okay, well, they're right. Probably isn't anything. to trust, don't you? Yeah. And you also don't want to feel silly being like, okay, because I think obviously where I had had lumps checked for and they were nothing, although had never been scanned. So whether they were or not, I don't know. But I thought, okay, yeah, I'll just take his word for it. I ended up leaving anyway. got the, I did get a cancellation at the breast unit. and I remember them ringing me saying, we've had a cancellation for tomorrow. Can you come in? And I was like, yeah, okay. I remember sitting with my best friend. She was at my house and, she was like, what was that? I said, I just said, I've got an appointment at the breast unit, to get this lump church. And she was like, okay. And that was literally, didn't even talk anything more of it. went the following day to the hospital by myself. Cause again, when I say to you, I can't, Even though I was pushing for them to refer me, I can't even explain to you, not one part of me, not even the tiniest bit thought that it would be cancer, like nothing. But I was even like, my God, I'm being such a drama queen. I feel really silly being here. Like no one ever should listen to that in themselves because there are times that you never been a drama queen anyway. You should always get anything checked, whether it be your breasts, anything. Like I just think. I went into that appointment, they're thinking, they're going to like say to me all of this stuff. Like you just build this situation up in your head, don't you? I went through to see the consultant and she felt it. She actually laid me down to feel it as well. And I was like, this is funny because the doctor told me you don't check laying down, but she got me to lay on a bed. So it's completely, completely opposite to what he said. And she felt it. And was like, it's just a fibro-dementoma. It's nothing to worry about. you're only, she almost from the outset of me walking in, it was almost an eye rolling why are you here kind of situation, but felt it and was like, it's just a fibro-dementoma. It's nothing to worry about. I was like, okay. She was like, okay. I was like, so like, are we going to do anything further? She was like, like huffing and puffing like, okay. She's marked it. She was like, I'll send you for a scan just to be on the safe side. I was like, Okay, and I remember sitting there thinking, almost wanting to be like, no, don't worry, if you really think it's fine, I'll just leave. And I think she would have been like, Okay, do know what I mean? It was very much I felt really small in that situation. I was like, in that moment, I felt really like, my god, I feel like I'm making a nuisance and I don't need to be in two experiences with healthcare professionals, both of which made you feel like you are silly for really advocating to yourself in that moment. That's why I really feel so passionate about the work that Copperfield do because they're all about fighting against those people. You're not being stupid. you went, so from that, from that scan then you get referred on to do the scan. that, that a shorter period of time? You literally go into You go in. So she literally marked it up and was, was like, okay, we'll scan you. And then basically when I sat down at her desk and it wasn't even like, okay, like a good, but do you know what I mean? It was very cold. It was very, and I hate saying this because the breasts, the breast unit of the cell phone are incredible. and I'll get to it in a minute, it was very much, I do hate saying bad things, but that was just my personal experience. You can only share what you went through. I feel like I need be honest about it as well. you do, because the more prepared people are, the better that they can know the signs and think, wait minute, I've heard this anecdotally, this isn't happening to me. need to push this harder. went in for the scan and I just remember talking to the lady and then everything went really quiet in the room. Obviously it's a dark room because they're out. So she said to me, I'm not going to mammogram you because you're only young. Your breast tissue is too dense. We don't mammogram people of your age, which they don't. So I was like, okay, she'll send you for an ultrasound. So the ultrasound rooms, obviously I'm guessing you've been in ultrasounds when you baby scans. The rooms are dark, aren't they, for them to see the thing. So it's dark anyway. It's like something out of a film. Everyone was fine and talkative and I remember her scanning, scanning it. And I remember looking on the thing and then I remember her taking loads of measurements and then scanning my armpits. This whole time I still had no, I feel like I'm really naive. I had no, like no thoughts of it being cancer whatsoever. She's scanning it and then everyone just went really quiet in the room. And I remember trying to talk to the lady. She was like, yeah, yeah, just give me a minute, just give me a minute. And I remember her going over to her desk. I remember it like, you know, when you just, I just remember it so well. I remember her looking at me on the bed and talking on the phone and talking really quietly. And then she was like, right, we're going to biopsy it. And I was like, was the first time that I was like, okay. Okay, this is, I didn't expect this. And then she was up with biopsies, so many people a day, like it's fine. She was really reassuring. I was like, okay. And was like, and then done the biopsy, which really bloody hurt. I be honest, I can be honest, like I would rather people be aware that it's not the most comfortable things, she done the biopsy and then she's like, I'm going to put a little clip in just so. And I was like, why are you doing that? And she was like, it's just, if in the future you have to have this lump checked, if it's still there. when they scan it, they'll know that that's been properly looked into. Basically, they put a clip in there to say, this has been like biopsid, this has been this, whatever. I was like, okay. And then she was like, I've just spiked, blah, blah, blah. We're going to send you through for a mammogram. I was like, I thought I didn't have mammograms because of like what they told me about dense breast tissue. She was like, we're just going to mammogram it to make sure the clip's in the right place. I was like, okay. And obviously now, like none of it made sense. Now I kind of, I understand it more. But, also I would like to say this, people go through this a lot and it isn't cancer. It doesn't mean having all of this stuff means that you have cancer. this in a way is, if there is such a thing as like the trusted process to get you to a point where they can say yes or no, and then refer you on to wherever you need to go after that. So it's part of the process, which is, as I said, I would rather you talk openly and honestly about so people know. I went straight in literally through a back like went from that room to another room to have the mammogram. And I remember them doing the one breast and then the lady coming in and going, we need a bilateral mammogram, which is both breasts, not just the one. And I was like, why are they doing both? And she was like, well, while you're here, they're thinking we should just do both. And like, no one's obviously saying to me, because they suspect you've got cancer. and I was like, okay. And then I remember coming, having the mammogram, going to sit down outside and I remember it just so well. Like it was in January. I remember sitting there. I remember what was on there was this morning was on telly and it was, they were talking about backache and I remember sending a picture to my mom and I was like, this is me. Cause I just wear that backache all the time. And, I just remember ringing, ringing Chris, my other half and being like, They've taken a biopsy and he was with his mum. I was meant to take Albert swimming that morning. You remember these life moments, you remember everything that going on. his mum has always been very high up in the hospital. So she was like, they biopsy everyone, don't worry about it. I was like, okay, that's fine. And I remember sitting there and I remember people coming in, being scanned and going. And I remember sitting there thinking, people are coming and going. There's people, I've been sat here for ages and these people have come and gone, come and gone, but still just didn't think anything of it. And then they said to me, do you want to get your husband up here? I was like, no. When I think back, think, God, I was so stupid. I don't know if it was my mind protecting me. But I was like, no. And I just thought maybe they thought I was lonely because I've been sitting there for ages. That was what was going through my head. And then I remember them asking me again and I was like, no, it's like, I'm fine. I'm all right. I'm a big girl. I can be by myself. And then them not knowing I was sitting opposite the room I was going into, like people going in and out of that room. And then I remember them asking me to come in and I walked in and Sarah, who was my breast care nurse, who was incredible. I remember her sitting, there's the consultant who I first saw, Sarah, and then there was another nurse sitting there. I remember walking in, there was like three people in there. And then I just remember looking, like I walked in the door and Sarah's on the left. I remember looking on her lap was loads of leaflets about breast cancer. And I was like, this is weird. And I mean, they took no time in telling me what they thought because they could see obviously the look on my face. And I remember sitting down and the consultant did actually apologize to me. She said to me, I'm really so sorry, but like we're pretty certain what we found is cancer. And I just remember being like, You know, like when you see in films and people go into, it's almost like they're in a tunnel and everything sounds really far away. That happened in real life. That's never happened to me before. I remember standing up and like pushing the chair to the back of the room and being like, what? Like, and they were saying stuff to me. I have no idea what they were saying. Like, I just, I don't, I don't remember what they said at all. I don't really remember what it was said at all in that room after that moment. And then Sarah, who was my breast-kinner, was like, I'm going to take you in the other room and we're going to chat about it. I think they said to me, we can't be a hundred percent sure until we get the biopsy results back. But from what we've seen, we're pretty certain that that's what it is. And I just remember thinking, you must have got this wrong. But one thing I will say, never, death never crossed my mind. Like I never thought. Even though I was like, okay, this obviously, obviously it's cancer. I never thought, my God, I'm going to die. And I think that is what a lot of people do think when you hear cancer, you think death, because you just think they go hand in hand. But for some reason that is, that was never anything that crossed my mind, crossed my mind more now than it did at the point of diagnosis. yeah, I remember going in with Sarah into this room and having all these leaflets. And I remember her saying to me, right, ring your husband. And I was like, I remember just looking at her like, what? And then I started really laughing. I was just hysterical. think it was hysteria. I didn't know what was kind of, was like, what? They must have got it wrong. I just couldn't stop laughing. She was like, right, you need to sit down. We were in a tiny room. mean, it was like, I'm shaking. It was a really small room. And I remember just pacing up and down, up and down. And it's almost like adrenaline. My body was on high alert. I was like, walking up and down this room and like this tiny room, mean like five steps there and back. And she was like, right, ring him, ring him. And I was like, I remember ringing Chris and he was like, you all right? And I feel like he knew something was gonna be wrong. But I was like, I think they've just told me I've got cancer. And he was like, what? And then she, Sarah took the phone, we had it on loudspeaker, went like, right, I'm gonna like explain stuff. She explained stuff and then, Obviously it's a bit of a blur, but then she was like, can you come up? And then he got off the phone and she said to me, right, get recordings up on your phone. want you to record our conversation because you're not going to remember any of this. Don't remember any of it. Never listened to the recording, but also I've never deleted it. And I don't know why I can't bring myself to delete it, which is really odd, but I know I'll never listen to it. it's really changed. But actually thinking about it and thought of listening to it, I just Yeah, I don't know. think I told Chris not to come to the hospital. I don't really know, but Chris didn't make it to the hospital because I remember driving home or driving to Chris's mum's house. And I remember the journey, but I don't remember the journey. I have no idea how I got from the hospital to Chris's mum's house where I'd rung my mum and I was like, can you meet me at Yvonne's house? And she was like, why? It was so blasé about me going to the breast unit that I think I'd even forgot to tell her that I'd had a cancellation and was going that morning. She was like, why? And I was like, can you just go there? And obviously my mum being my mum was like, I know something's wrong. think mums just know, especially my mum because she will go in to be like, something must be wrong, something must be wrong. And I was like, I think I just was like, I was standing outside the breast unit and I'm just being like, I think I've got cancer. She was like, what? I was like, can you just meet me at Chris's? So obviously by the time I got there, my mum was there already. And I just remember walking into my mum and Chris's mum's like their faces, obviously trying to hide their like shock. But it's concern, worry. Absolutely. They love you. So you're obviously going to feel all of these. I remember getting given these news and then just sitting in Chris's mum's house in the kitchen being like almost, I don't know how to explain it. But being like, what the hell do I do now? You have to wait two weeks for your results, by the way. So that is hell on earth. And obviously they're like, don't Google anything. First thing I do was like, okay, I remember Googling what cancer looks like on a scan. Cause I remember looking at the screen when she was scanning me. What, what was the percentage of people being told they think it's cancer and it's not, and it is like the most things that you're never going to get answers for on the internet. But I needed something to just focus on almost because I just remember sitting in Chris' mum's kitchen thinking, I can't just go about my normal life now. I can't go and pick the kids up or pick Violet up from school. I can't do this. I can't do that. you've just told me I might have cancer, but I might not. how am I meant to even go to bed tonight? Function, I literally had no idea how I was meant to do anything at all. And I almost was like, we picked fire up from school that night, we must have, we went home. And I was almost like, don't expect me to cook, don't expect me to do any cleaning, don't expect me to do anything because I might have cancer. But also, why are you not making more of the thing about this? Because I might have cancer, but also play it down a bit because I might not. Like, I absolutely was in an absolute turmoil in my head of, and this is going to sound the weirdest thing in the world when I say it. I almost sometimes want to go back to that little week of not knowing. I don't know, I can't explain it. I remember me and Chris just being almost one person. I remember going, we just put on that night, what is that Ricky Gervais program, Afterlife? His wife died from cancer. And I remember putting it on, but I think... I put it on and that was the first time I cried since they said to me, we think it's cancer and having an absolute breakdown. yeah, part of me like occasionally thinks I'd like to go back to that little bubble of almost like lockdown of nothing else in the world mattered at all. It was really shit. But obviously this was before I had my official diagnosis. So maybe that's why I'm like, I'm going to end up digressing. Chris's mom, was very high up at the hospital and my mum's, one of my mum's best friends worked in pathology, which is where they do all the blood testing and stuff. And I remember saying to my mum, and saying to Chris's mum, someone needs to try and get my results to me quicker because this is hell. This is purgatory, I can imagine. honestly, and now I know it's called scans, scans-itis. we call it in the cancer community, waiting for scan results. These are the most anxiety inducing. Going in for the scans are scary, but waiting for those results are, there's just nothing like it because you're meant to just carry on your normal day to day, not knowing and then being like, my God, this is like hours, days and weeks sometimes. And I remember speaking to my mum, speaking to her, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. I got my results. went that my initial appointment in the Breast Youth on Monday, I got my results on the Friday. So five days, that five days was hell. I remember ringing my breast care nurse about three times a day, every day, like on a percentage, what do you think it Do you think it's cancer? Do you think it's not? Like, and in the end she said to me that she obviously wasn't giving me anything cause she can't, but she in the end said to me like, they don't tend to tell people they think it's cancer if they're not pretty certain it is. Like they see these, the radiographers see cancer or not cancer every day. Like they're pretty certain with what they find, but we can't tell you for definite until we've had your results, blah, blah, blah, blah. Got my results on the Friday. Yes, it's cancer. I remember having a phone. I had to try to book private to see if I could get my scan results quicker, my biopsy results quicker. And I spoke to a really, really lovely lady who my surgeon, who's the person who gave me my official diagnosis, she also does private. I remember speaking to her secretary. on the Thursday night, she said to me, there's no point you paying for private when you're going to see her in as through the NHS. If she's got your results, she will ring you and she will ask you to come to the hospital if they are there because I'd been told my results were there by my mom's friends, pathology people, blah, blah. So said, well, I know they're there. So I just want to be told, I just want to know. And I remember the next morning then getting a phone call from and I still think now that she could have got me to book a private appointment, but she didn't like she rung me through the hospital. She works at Southend Hospital on Fridays. she rung me and she said, Hi Mia, we've got your results here. Do you want to come in at blah, blah, blah time? And I was like, okay. Yeah. then she was like, someone or you can bring a couple of people with you. was like, for fuck's sake, I know what that means. Even though they'd already told me, basically they thought it was, but I obviously had that bit of hope that it wasn't. It's very different. I can imagine it is very different when you're being sat in a room with an actual diagnosis from a biopsy. And actually telling you what your cancer is doing and how big it is and how whatever. So went in and they gave me, this is where my education of breast cancer becomes so much more vast because I thought you just had breast cancer, there was one type and that was it. But actually there's just so much more to it, so many subtypes and everything. And I remember just being like, can you just tell me how bad it is? Like blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And so my cancer was, it was very fast growing. There are, I was about to say there are worse cancers to have. Cancer is never good, obviously. mine fed off of estrogen and something called HER2, which is like a protein in our body that we, still don't know enough about that to be able to give any kind of explanation about it. but the estrogen side of it. So. Mine was very fast growing, it was, hadn't, it hadn't spread into my lymph nodes, which is again, goes back to if I hadn't have gone, if I hadn't pushed for it, or my mum had pushed for that referral, it could have been a month later that could have gone to my lymph nodes. As soon as it's gone through your lymph nodes into other parts of your body, you're then given a terminal diagnosis. And that is obviously, I mean, there are people that live a very long time with the terminal diagnosis. that you still have a terminal diagnosis. still are living, you're still living from what I've experienced from people that friends that I've made who are living with a terminal diagnosis, they are feel like a ticking time bomb just waiting like, and it can go from you're living your life fine. And then all of a sudden it just ramps up and then very quickly your end of life comes to you. Like it's so obviously I feel very lucky that I had a, Not a primary diagnosis and not a secondary diagnosis. And I can't fault the people at Southend Hospital, the breast unit. It was very quickly. I think within two weeks of my official diagnosis, I started chemo. I think within about five days, I had my first appointment with my oncologist who then explained about chemo. I then started chemo. That's another thing when people have secondary diagnosis, it's almost like they know people aren't going to live forever. Everything's a bit slower. They're like, I've got friends who have been on the same treatment paths. One's a primary diagnosis, one's a secondary diagnosis. The primary diagnosis, everything gets done a lot quicker because I get it. Like they don't want the cancer to spread, blah, blah, blah, blah. But then you have these people who are sitting with a secondary diagnosis that are like, Okay, so is my life not as important because it's going to end sooner? But why am I not having my treatment given to me as quick? I think there's a charity thing called Second, what's it called? can't remember. Second, it's about secondary people needing more. Second, I can't remember what it's called. Yeah, it's almost like secondary people just get kind of pushed aside a bit like we'll, we'll deal with you, but your life's going to end anyway. you know, and it's just not, I mean, there might be people that have had really good experience with their treatment. I'm talking about people that I'm friends with that haven't had a good experience. can only go through what you've seen and what you've experienced too. Yep. Started chemo and don't really have any words for that. That was the hardest thing I've ever done. And There are people that have chemo and don't find it that bad. Like I find I've had a lot of surgeries from my cancer and I've bounced back from surgeries. And then there are people that don't deal well with surgeries, but chemo was better for them. For me, chemo was, it was the hardest thing I've ever done in my life. And it's really weird because obviously it was like six months. And I remember thinking, like they prepare you for how ill you're going to feel. Like they're very honest with it. but nothing actually, and it's really weird because obviously the cancer doesn't make you feel ill. felt fine, the, obviously the stuff they give you to, to get rid of it obviously makes you very ill. And I just remember thinking it's fine. I'm going to feel really ill, but I've never felt illness like chemo illness, like the sickness, that was one thing. And sorry, to be really honest, the diarrhea awful. I shit the bed a good few times. I shit myself in the bath. It was awful. Chris would come like a full on carer. There was no control whatsoever because I was being sick anyway. But I wasn't prepared for how unwell I would feel. You know, like a really bad hangover, like times a million. When you think, my God, but you have to ride it out. You have no option but to just ride it out. And you think, why have I done this to myself? But then it's like, it's like that. And then knowing next round, going in, knowing you're doing that to yourself again. I just don't, I remember laying on the kitchen floor, like literally thinking I'd rather be dead right now. And I know that sounds so dramatic, but I remember laying on the kitchen floor thinking, like, I need this to end. Like, don't know, I don't know what to do. Like my bones hurt, like everything hurt. I was obviously being sick all the time and Yeah, just, chemo was the hardest thing I've ever done ever, ever, ever. And I think that was my hardest part of my cancer journey. I'm going to, I'm going to jump in. Sorry. I've go really go into deep. Please don't apologize. I knew I'd do this. I want you to go into experience because so much of, you know, this episode is about your experience with work, but it's also about your experience with cancer. I'm going bring it back. I'm going to bring it back. But it's such, look, how can we not have this conversation? If it's okay, I want to ask some questions around photography and cancer. I'm gutted that I never came to see the exhibition that you did. So it's February this year that you did your exhibition. And I just want to talk maybe about how photography became a bit of an aid at all maybe for you to deal with your own treatment, but also amplify the message of other people's experience too. So how did that come about? I'd imagine you've always got a camera in your hand. So it became an extension. How do I document this now? I think my way of, I had to stop work because obviously I was too on work. I love taking photos, obviously, as we know. And it's always been like a therapy for me taking for like, I just knew I couldn't photograph anyone else. Okay, I'm going to photograph myself. So I started like a self-portrait series. wasn't necessarily for anyone else to see, but was for my own, I don't know, keepsake? I don't really know. You can say like, it's cathartic, isn't it? would imagine. I just know I like to photograph hard situations. I'd photographed before having cancer myself, I'd photographed a couple of people who had had cancer. I'd photographed someone very young. end of life, like, and I knew how much those photos meant to the family, though they were really hard to photograph. And I almost thought, I want to photograph myself because then I want to be able to look back and be like, okay, you've come really far since you were this really swollen bald person, egg person. yeah, so was a way of me, it was just like a, yeah, like a therapy, I guess, like I, and it gave me something to focus on a bit. Because I wasn't working, I wasn't able to be out photographing other people. I started doing, yeah, like a self portrait series. And then when I had my mastectomy and lost my first breast, I actually found that really difficult to look at for the first time and be like, I've lost a boob. I mean, it sounds silly when I say it out loud, but It doesn't. It doesn't quite work. Sitting here as a guy, doesn't sound silly. just want to say that out loud. I guess it isn't silly because it is a massive part being a woman, especially. It's your identity, isn't it? really is. And also I was fed my babies with those. You've just taken it like it was nothing, even though obviously it had to be taken or whatever. I struggled with that. And actually the first time I really saw it was my mother-in-law and my mum helped me take the bandages off in the shower. But I remember not looking in the mirror or anything. The first thing I done was actually photograph it, which sounds weird, I know. But that was my first way of looking at it. I don't know if it's because I then put it into my editing like program. I played around with the colors. I put some in black and white and I almost tried to make it look more beautiful than it was instead of just looking in the mirror at it. don't know if that was why. a way to process it, isn't it? Yeah. I think that was just my way. Quite literally. Literally. And then I shared it on Instagram, not straight away, but I took these self-portraits of me with... like the stitches, the bandages come off, there was the stitches and it was quite raw and not the nicest thing to look at or easiest thing to look at. But I remember them writing a massive like Instagram post story thing and sharing that. then it made me more accepting. It sounds really weird because it's not like I needed other people's approval of it in any way, or form, but only way I can say is it was like a, not like therapy, like I've said that, like, I don't know, was like sharing it out into the world made it less of a, my God, look at what's happened to me. Like everyone knew about it and it wasn't like a secret that I was embarrassed of. I can't explain it. And I want to be the person that can sit here and help you. It's so complex and there's so many things interwoven with it. But I can imagine as a way to process and a way to own it and a way to put it out there in a way that you can think a way to share my story with it as well, which is, that's what then led me onto what it was coming up to. I had my surgery in the July or August and it was coming up to breast cancer awareness month is in the October. And I was like, what can I do to, I dunno, do something around breast cancer awareness month? And I was like, I feel like I could, I had a group, there's a great, amazing group on Facebook called Booz and Pals of lots of people who live around this area who have been diagnosed and anyone that has been diagnosed or knows anyone, like send them in their direction because they're incredible. They do monthly meetups. They're amazing. So I went on there and I was like, Is there anyone that wants to be photographed and wants to share their story during breast cancer awareness month too? Because these images are hard hitting, it gets people's attention and then they can read their story and it will get more people checking and it will do good. That was how I saw it in my head. And I had a massive influx of people within my group who wanted to be photographed, which was amazing. So I went around photographing. lots of incredible women and yeah, it was actually really hard. Like it was actually really heavy because it's listening to loads of different, I loved it. I remember coming home some nights being like, like it's a lot. It's a lot of weight to take on. And the expectation from their side is not that you take that on, again, what I, you know, I don't know you well Mia, but I think I know you wouldn't have to know that you're an empathetic person. Plus you've also been there. You've gone through that experience. You're going through that experience in the moment. So how can you not be weighed down? Absolutely. But I don't mean that a negative way. No, no, You take that that's what I mean. It wasn't like, I felt all this is too much. I loved it. Obviously it was just really heavy. How much pride? I'm not going ask you how much pride you feel, but I would imagine that you feel so much pride in helping give those people a platform to tell their story. yeah. There's one lady, especially Beverly, who has always said to me how much it meant her and she was never able to accept her body after her surgeries and after surgery and after just the cancer diagnosis in general. She'd never been able to accept what happened, but having her photos taken and looking, being able to look at them, obviously in like a beautiful light, because we'd set like, you know, we'd made it all lovely. And then being able to share her story and not feel, and I felt the same, sharing my story and not having people feel like, I think when you share things online, people can read it if they want to read it. They don't have to read it if they don't want to. You don't feel like you're getting on people's nerves. wanting people, I'm not doing it for people to say stuff back to me, I'm doing it because it's actually just an outlet of like being able to share your story and be like, God, that feels really good to get that off my chest and not feel anxious that people are going to be like, you're annoying people by talking. What are you fishing for? What's the Yeah, exactly that. Yeah. I had so much amazing feedback from it that it just I find it really hard to say these things about myself that people said this stuff though, because I don't want to be like, I was amazing doing that. people got a lot from it. for me, that just sat. Yeah, I just, I loved that people took so much from it because it gave purpose to my work. It wasn't like I was just taking photos, like happy. Which has to be so important, doesn't it as well? Especially when your work has been so impacted. Your life has been so impacted, obviously, but your work, which is something now we've identified you're passionate about and you love, has been so impacted. And now you've got a chance to pick up your camera, have purpose, meaning again, and amplify stories of women that have gone through these journeys and experiences. When did you know that was going to become an exhibition? So it was actually There's a lady called Fred who worked at the Macmillan information center at Southend hospital, another great place. She contacted me because Bev, who I was talking about earlier, she'd gone in there and a couple of other ladies had gone in there and shown their photos and been like, we've had it done this and blah, blah, blah, blah, And Fred contacted me to say, we need to do an exhibition or we need to make a book or we need to do something. And I was like, What? didn't like, I don't know. Then I was thinking, no, people are going to ask me to do admin stuff and I can't do that. So I went in and had a chat with her and I just thought, I can't do an exhibition. Like I'm not good enough to do an exhibition. I just didn't even think that I'd be able to do something like that or that people would care enough or not care enough that people would be like, again, the imposter syndrome of people being like, Why is she doing that? Again, it's the judgment from other people looking over the fence going, what, who is she? Yeah. Why does she think she can do that? Exactly. Which is honestly, that just never goes away, does it? It's really hard. So I said to Fred, you do the admin side. I'll do the photographs. if you can help me be organised with it, then we can do it. Me and Fred working together, which she won't mind me saying. she is very organised and prepared and wants to get everything done. I want to do everything last minute because that's just how I work best. So there was a lot of, Mia, have you done this? Have you done this? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Hadn't done it. Hadn't done the things she'd asked me to do because I was just like, I just work best doing everything last minute. You are such a creative though. If I talk to my mum and my brother, they operate in exactly the same way and it kills me. But I get it. think that is a very creative trait in people. Not a generalisation, but for the most part, most creatives are like that. and I think everything, because you just think, okay, well, I'm really pressurised to do it. Okay, all the best ideas have come to my mind. Exactly, yeah. Yeah, so we put together this exhibition, which I would not have been able to do with one, the people I photographed, because they were just incredible with how honest they were and the photos they had taken, what they were happy with to be shared. We did decide to open it up to not just breast cancer. So we wanted it to be more for cancer. Everyone could be involved. I wanted, we wanted to get more men involved. I wanted specifically to have men with breast cancer involved because I think it's so important to know that it is not a woman only disease. And I haven't actually touched on this already. My granddad died from breast cancer. Right. When About 16 years ago now, like he was young and there's just not enough known about it. Even the doctors like that, he's, I won't go too much into it, but he never got the chance to have chemo or radiotherapy because they thought he had an abscess under his arm. So they just went straight in to try and remove it, realized it was a tumor because it was a tumor, it was cancer, it never healed. They tried so much for it to heal. but because it was just living cancer tumor, it just never healed. So because he had an open wound, he wasn't allowed to have radiotherapy or chemotherapy. So he had no chance. I mean, it had already spread and it was already a secondary disease. But if they'd even known more about men having breast cancer, even at the hospital, they might have biopsied it before going straight in with, we're going to cut this open and remove this abscess and drain it. yeah, anyway, I felt very passionate about having a man within the exhibition that could share his story. And there was a lovely man called Eddie who was part of Alba's and Pau's group who was open to being involved and he was incredible to photograph and getting his story. And I feel like I'm digressing again, sorry. so I couldn't have done it without the people who photographed it. I could not have done it without Fred because it just would not have happened without her. she done more than that. She just done basically everything and I just done the creative part, which was taking the photos and getting the stories. And she done so much. Like I don't think I've ever even thanked her enough. Like she was just incredible. So we put together this exhibition, which was in February. And we had, I think we'd done an open, like the opening night of it. And I didn't, don't think I expected that many people to come. We done it at the Ironworks in Southend and honestly, it was like full to the brim. Like there was- That's a massive space as well. I've been in there. And that's I was worried about. It's a big space. I thought it was going to feel empty. But there was like doctors and oncologists from the hospital. was like people from Macmillan like main Macmillan, know, like up in wherever they are. There was like all of these people. No one can see Mia doing this, but Mia's pointing around the room. It's main Macmillan somewhere. know their I don't know, it be in the Midlands or something, I don't know, just somewhere. Again, I'd love to be the person that knows where their base is, but I'm just going to, I'm watching you. I'm like their main offices, people come down from their main offices, which I thought that's a big thing. That's really big deal. There was just all these people here and I just thought... Wow, like this has actually made much more of an impact. We were on ITV news at six. I was like, I made it. was reading an article the BBC did on it too. And that must just fill you with pride. You strike me throughout this whole conversation, you just strike me as someone that doesn't necessarily understand the impact of what it is you're doing until someone's in your face saying, this is a big thing. And you're like, what? Yeah, that is very much. I think I have that. don't know again if it's imposter syndrome. don't know. I get too embarrassed. I think I'm getting a bit better at it. I get embarrassed to celebrate anything, not anything good that I've done, but like big things. Do know what I mean? Yeah, I get it. There's humility in there. There's a bit of lack of self-confidence maybe. There is imposter syndrome all spinning around at the same time. And I'm saying in you, it's present in me. differing levels, differing degrees, depending on who you're speaking to. I'm just everything that you've achieved and all of the amazing work you've done. As I say, I'm describing it for the first time ever is like amplifying others' voices and then sharing your own journey is something to be applauded. It is something to be proud of. But every time I'm sort of saying, I'm looking at you going, I don't think even now the realisation of what you do is hitting you. And that's both in the work you would you do day to day and this journey you've been on with cancer and the way you've documented it is truly special. I'm not just saying it because you're here, I'm not blowing smoke up your arse, I genuinely mean it. I hope at some point you can sit back, I'm sure you have, but go pop your ear. exhibition to the Lee Art Trail in July. And I had a lot of people coming in and having conversations with me on those days. I tell you what means more to me than any of that is as sad as it is, is the people that have been diagnosed because of the stuff that I've shared that wouldn't have gone to the doctors or wouldn't have pushed. it's when I get those messages of which I hate it because there's been a lot of them. of people that have messaged me and said, because of you, I've gone to get things checked. And sadly I have been diagnosed, but it's been caught early. And, and I just think, they're, they're, they're the times that I feel really, really proud because I'm like, okay, the thing that I've done, like the photos I've taken and the stories I've shared and how much I go on and on and on. I know it probably bores some people so much, but how much I go on about the work that Copperfield does. Like, I'm just like, yeah, that's. they're the times I feel really proud. Well you've just given us a perfect window there into Copperfield and what has happened for you recently. you, it's safe to say that Copperfield. I my life to them. That's what I feel like. There you go. Yeah. Sorry. couldn't tell me better than that. I was struggling. was like, thank you. In a way it's as impactful as that. So I understand completely why you are such a fierce advocate for both them and the message they're putting out there about awareness. So we're talking to you, what, two weeks? Is it two, three weeks after you've returned now from the Copperfield? Is it even that? it a week? This is really fresh. talk to me about what the experience is like. First off, you give me like an abridged version of how you do it, so how do you get onto the Copperfield track and then and then tell me about what the experience was like. I mean, right. I'm going to start with what you said first. Getting onto the Trek, you simply just go onto their website and you apply for, they're called Copper Treks. it's Giavanna Fleksha. She is the one that, she's like the face of the Treks. And if you go on her Instagram, you'll see it. You'll see what they're about. I'd obviously seen them for years anyway, because I'd followed Copper. feel for so long, so I'd always seen them, never pictured myself on one because I'm not one to climb mountains. Why honestly? And then I was sitting, I think it was just before the applications closed last year, last December, so they closed this year on the 1st of December, so I'm guessing it was similar time last year. I remember, I think it was only days away from the applications closing and I was just sitting at home and I was like, I'm just going to apply to Trek the Himalayas. thinking, obviously I'm not going to get in to do it because... you mean you left it to the last minute? exactly. I don't know what we're talking about. It's not like me. I was just sitting there and I was like, yeah, I'm going to apply to do this, not thinking I would get on to do it. So I just thought, which is another thing I do, I'm going to have all these ideas and then not think they're going to come to fruition or whatever the word is. Is that the word? Yeah, that's it. That'll suit. Yeah. So I applied. didn't even give it a second thought, just like put it to the back of, I didn't even think about it, I just applied and I was like, wrote my application, you, obviously I ask you why you want to do it, what reasons, obviously I had my own personal diagnosis and because of my granddad and because of friends that I've got who are living with a secondary diagnosis, friends that I've lost, blah, blah, blah, Not blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, it sounds like I'm under, you know, very important I know completely what you mean, worry. and so when you apply, they, I think they like you to either, you don't have to have had breast cancer yourself, but usually it's people that have either had a diagnosis, have a close connection, something to do with breast cancer. Anyway, January come and I remember getting the email saying, Cobra Trek, Himalayas, we've got some news dot dot dot. And I remember thinking. Is that the subject? That's the subject bar? we've got some news dot dot dot. And I remember opening it and I was like, fucking hell, I've got a climber melting. I was like, shit, no, I can't do that. I actually can't do that. I remember going into Chris and I was like, I've just got an email to say that I've got on the trek to trek with him later. He was like, well, I didn't even told him I'd applied for it because I just didn't even think that I would be able to, that I would get in to do it. And I even remember on the trek talking to one of the girls who does the applications. And I was like, did you have like, Thousands she was like no and I was like we had like we had to have many I was like No, so did you not have many applications? She was like no we had that hundreds and hundreds like I think just under a thousand or something I was like what I got pictures like yeah, I was like I still can't believe it I thought maybe they were like low on applications and that's why I got in to do it Anyway, obviously got this email. I was like shit I'm gonna have to train. I'm actually gonna train to climb these mountains you, none of you will be surprised to know I didn't do any training. would have gone off to do this in this month, November. So we had from January to November. did start training? I didn't. Of course you didn't. I didn't. Chris was like Mia, you need to train. You can't even walk up the stairs without getting out of breath. You're asthmatic for one. You've just been going through all this cancer treatment. You're still actually on some treatment. Like your body's not It's optimal health, like you need to actually train. was like, yeah, yeah. And me being typical me, which obviously, as we say, running thing, I will do it. I will do it. I will do it. I will do it. I did do one training walk, but it wasn't really a training walk. It's just a really long dog walk. That was all it was. But I call it a training walk because I went to Hadley Castle and I walked up some hills. I'm not joking. I went on this trek thinking, God, I really haven't done any training. And don't get me wrong, obviously it's always better to do the training. I got up those mountains with no issue, not no issue, I was a liar. It was really hard work, but there was no point. There was no one point that I was like, I can't do this. And it is a hundred percent the people that you are with. is my team. So we had Sarah Davis, who's one of the dragons on Dragon's End. She was our team leader. So we were team Sarah and I can't even put into words what those group of that group of people now mean to me. If you could see my hand movements, making a little heart circle of like these humans that I met and you go and climb a mountain like first day, 10 hour climb like up a mountain. And you've all got these stories. The majority of people had had breast cancer, but there were people there that had, they'd lost friends or they'd had family members or They've had preventative surgeries because they're more high risk of having breast cancer. And I, you just become like this force field of like closeness. And I've, don't even know how to explain it, but they are what we, we are what got each other up those mountains, listening to people's stories and the reasons why you're doing it. And you're just like, I'm doing this to raise awareness, to raise money for Copperfield for the work they do that so many people might not be here now for if it wasn't for what they do. yeah, and Chris who founded Copperfield, she passed away this year. the work she done to get it to where it is now is just like, and I never met her, but I cried about her so much on that trip. because you're like, everyone is here and so many lives have been saved, mine included, from what she done, from her being given a secondary diagnosis because she wasn't listened to. everything she's done to save so many lives and the work that Cobfield do, just don't even have any, and I've got goosebumps everywhere because I just feel like people probably think, my gosh, she goes on about them all the time, but they're, yeah. It's the whole, the track was just life changing. It was just, I dealt and with so much on that track that I didn't even know I needed to deal with. I healed so many, like I just healed so much inside me that I didn't even know. I cried about my own diagnosis, which I never do. I never cry about, I cry about other people's diagnosis, a drop of the hat. Someone tells me they've got cancer. I'm like, I can talk about, I can talk about myself. And I don't get upset about it, but I cried at the top of those mountains. And you know when people say they walk to the top of a mountain, they go to the top and they cry. I was always like, that's ridiculous. That won't happen to me. I remember walking up to the top. I mean, I thought it was the top of the mountain. It actually wasn't. And I'd had to break down a little bit too early because I then had to go and climb more. But I thought it was because we come to this massive open like space and I was like, wow. And I remember just sitting, I went to sat by myself for a minute and I just sat there. And I just started crying, like, and I don't even know where it come from, but this emotion, I don't know if it's like an analogy of climbing a mountain. Like I've this time two years ago, I literally couldn't even get up my stairs. I, I mean, I physically couldn't get upstairs. I was having to be carried up like the stairs. And now I've actually just climbed like this ascent that's bigger than Ben Nevis, which I don't even know if that's high, but it's big for me. That's for me as big. And I was just, and Yeah, I sat there and I just cried and cried and cried. then a couple of people come and sat with me, G who runs the tracks, her being one of them. And then some of the girls from my group, we just sat there and we just held each other and we cried and cried. You know, when you let your full cry out, you're like, ugly crying, snore everywhere, hyperventilating, our bodies were shaking. But we just held each other like there's five of us. just holding each other, like just crying and crying. And I don't think anyone realized how much we needed to have that cry. And I was crying about myself, but then I was crying about my friend Beth, who passed in February. so much of my track, I didn't even realize was for her. Like so much of it was, I was just like, same if things had been different and she'd been diagnosed early and blah, blah, blah, blah. you grieve for those people up those mountains. She's so weird. I feel like I couldn't grieve like that down here, but up there with those people was a completely different, I can't, yeah. You've got the shared experience going into it. So from day one, there's almost your level playing field in that cancer is what brings you together. Absolutely, And then you've got the shared experience of the challenge, both literal challenge of getting up mountain and then what that represents, is hopefully in lot of people's cases, maybe what's past and what they're now able to do. Which as you say, the stark contrast between laying on a kitchen floor wanting it to end to then being at the top of a mountain. To not have cried or not to have this moment of just relief, this sense of achievement, whatever it is. for that not to ripple into so many different things, it's hard not to imagine that's going to happen. mean, I just didn't expect the crying, but it just come out so much. yeah, it helped me deal with so much. I just think I'm just so glad that I'd done it. I'm so glad that I was with the people that I was with. I feel like it wouldn't have been, I mean, you could have probably put any group of people that have had cancer and their experiences together, but I still feel like if it wasn't the people that were in my group, it wouldn't have been as, I don't know, like I wouldn't have been the experience that it was. There were just so many different characters that made it the way that it was. Mason- Was the dynamic of that specific group of people, as you say, the characters, the stories, the personalities? There's people on that track that were living with a living with secondary breast cancer. And I, this is where I feel like I could cry. I literally look at them and think like the zest for life that they have. mean, once you've had a cancer diagnosis, you do have this whole like, you know, it sounds cliche, but you do like live every minute like you're going to die because that is how I live now. I want to do everything, blah, blah, blah. These people, I just think they're like running up these mountains. They're the ones that are like, helping everyone, like picking people up off the floor, emotionally, carrying their bags physically. And they are the ones that are like, have this almighty strength. And I'm like, you're living with a secondary diagnosis. You're having chemo at the moment. you, but you are this, you are these people, like I can't explain it. Like these people are just, and I will say from my own personal diagnosis, I, I, there is a pre-cancer me and a post-cancer me. That is just how it is now. Like everything is lockdown was pre-cancer me. Like this now is like, there's, there's always that now that divide in my life, but I, God, I actually, I actually really love the person I am now more than the person of pre-cancer. Like, yes, it was a fucking really shit thing to happen, but it's actually given me so much. Like it's. I would have never have climbed a mountain. I would have never have met these incredible people. I would never feel like I have a purpose. It sounds so ridiculous, but sometimes I think, my God, did I get given cancer because I want to do something good out of it, like taking the photographs, helping the people, but more like just, feel like I've, so, which everybody does, I guess that's had it, but I feel so passionately about trying to stop people getting a secondary diagnosis and like, I don't know, sometimes I just feel like was I meant to get cancer to change my life into a be a better person, which sounds ridiculous. But I just feel like I actually, sometimes I think I'm actually grateful to cancer for so much, which sounds fucking mental, which I know, and I would obviously rather have never had cancer, but I just feel like I live completely differently. I have a completely different outlook on life now. Like I don't care. half as much as I did about stupid things. And I don't care much. I mean, Chris hates it, but I'm like, we're going on another holiday. We're doing this. We're doing that. I've taken the kids to Disneyland three times because I'm like, sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry, you never know, I could die. And he's like, Mia, you need to just stop. Sometimes he's like, you need to reign it in a bit. I'm like, no. And it is that cliche thing. But when you are given a diagnosis of cancer, and there is obviously a part of me that lives every day thinking it could come back and if it comes back, might not. Obviously, I have got lots of friends that have had a primary diagnosis years down the line, it's come back and then they don't live for much longer. I obviously always have that fear in me, but I am really grateful to my cancer diagnosis for what it's given me. I don't think I would have ever had, think I would have carried on going through life as I was living and I loved my life. I do grieve so much of that pre-cancer me a lot, I just think there's just like, think I don't want to drink and be hungover because I don't want my body to feel that way. I think it's a bit of PTSD with I can't handle being ill really. It really takes me back to shit times. But yeah. much that is associated with the treatment. As you say, it's a, this is this is not my description, but it's a hangover times a million times a million squares. is literally. So now I just want to look after myself better. want to, I want to climb more mountains now. I'm like, it's given me so much. Obviously it physically took a lot, I much prefer the person I am now and the outlook I have on life. it's given you is perspective. Perspective massively. And to be able to say in the grand scheme of things, I'm not sweating the small stuff anymore. This is literally, I was on the edge. I'm lucky to be here and fortunate to be here. And do know what? I've never spoken to anyone that says they're grateful for their cancer diagnosis, but I think the way you've described it is so perfectly put. And there is a, I've spoken to enough people that say there are a pre-cancer them and a post-cancer them. had Carly Ash, who's now Carly Wilcox on, speaking about her journey. And she said, post-cancer, you never really completely cancer free. You will always have had and been diagnosed with I think you always feel like you have cancer still. can't explain it. That's exactly how Carly described it. Maybe not precisely, but she feels like you never really get past that. There's always ongoing treatment and there's always just that fear of it's going to come back. Thank you so much. love it. Like I said to you at the start of this, we've been in here for like two and a half hours. I don't want you to say sorry because I'm honoured really that you've shared it with me. And I feel like this what this podcast is about in so many ways, getting in a room with someone and letting them share their story. And how can we not address what you've done without talking about such a pivotal chapter in your life? The one thing I will say just to close the Copperfield chapter, to say that you are obviously still currently fundraising for the work and I know as an advocate for the charity you will always be... 100 % I'm signing up to all the tracks now. Exactly yeah. So what we'll do as part of this episode when we promote it is obviously let people know how they can donate and fundraise and we will share their shit out. Yes please. Even that I feel hard saying to people, actually you're not giving me money, you're giving it to the most... worthy cause. Yeah. So I'm sure we can do something to help you fundraise too. I'm going to loop it back around just to ask you a question and it is kind of back at the work angle. of course that is what we're here for. It's part of it. Jobsworth, can go and it has done gone off on many tangents over a number of episodes too. actually the first question I'm going to ask, looking back at everything that you've been through, cancer, motherhood, setting up a business, what is one thing that you're most proud of? feel like I have to say my kids. Of you do. Obviously, I'm most proud of them and being a mum. But I think I'm most proud of everything that I've overcome because I have dealt with, not dealt with a lot, not like feel sorry for me, I've dealt with a lot. But even back to my teenage, late, early, very early 20s, my mental health was very bad. And I just think for me to be here now and have had a cancer diagnosis and got over that, I would say that's what I'm most proud of. Even with my work stuff, everything cancer related, because of being able to raise awareness for breast cancer with my work, I would say that's got to be what I'm most proud of. It has to be. think if I was to sit and be like, okay, what are you most proud of? be like, cancer would be at the forefront of my mind and then be like, okay, the work I've like... photos I've done that have, back to what we said earlier, my thing that I'm most proud of is people that have been diagnosed early because of work that I've shared. would have to say that. And if you, and this will put you on the spot, if you had to give a piece of advice to someone that might be sitting there now, let's say they're in an office or they're working at a call centre. that's not to knock people they enjoy. to any listeners now that have got these jobs. But if you don't want to be doing that, what's the one bit of advice that you'd give them? If they're on the fence about starting something themselves, can you share a nugget or a bit of advice that you might want to put out there? mean, I would just say, it's gonna sound so cheesy, but follow your heart. Because if you're following your heart and following what you really want to do, it's never going to be a bad thing. Like it's never I'm not saying obviously if you've got a mortgage to pay for, completely quit your job and, but follow your passion. Like even if you start off with it being like a, like a hobby or whatever, just, just jump in two feet, jump into doing it like that. For me, I don't know if it's cause that's what I done. That's the only way I can give advice, but don't give up on, don't let yourself tell, don't let your mind tell you that you can't do it because actually, I know it's ridiculous. I really am a believer that anything is possible. If you put your mind to it, you can do anything. Your mind is the most powerful thing in the whole entire world. I've asked a few people that question and most of them will say that. And I know behind their eyes when they're saying it's like, I'm saying this and I know it's as easy as that. It's not as easy and it is as easy. Because the advice is still the same, however much you try and put in the caveats, which is I know it's not easy, I know it's not realistic, I know you've got bills to pay, but there is a stepping off point where if you want to make something happen, you have to make it you might have to like, be like, okay, we might not be able to go on a holiday this year or the next couple of years. You need to sacrifice for your own happiness because you don't, being stuck in something you really hate, will just dwindle you down as a person. I just think it can, it can just close you down as a person. For me personally, anyway, I just think you need to follow what makes you really happy and just try it. Even if it doesn't work out, try it. But then even if that doesn't work out, don't let it stop you from trying it again. There's a big cliche and I can't remember the exact wording and I've definitely said it on a previous episode, but it's better to regret giving it a go than sit there regret never having tried something. print somewhere on someone's wall. Much more concise. And less rambly, more punchy. it's just very true. I just think you don't want to look back on your life and be like, shit, I should have done that. And also it's never too late to do it. Well, I think there are so many lessons, especially given the journey you've been on. Life is too short to sit there and wish that something could have happened when you've got... everything at your disposal to make it happen. Mindset is so important too, as we alluded to earlier. We're on the last two points of the podcast. I've introduced a game this season, This or That. this is 10 questions. I'm not going to be too dismissive of it, but I love that you're excited. It's 10 questions. Two answers, you've got to pick one of the answers. It says this or that, but you've got to think quickly, no context. I love things like this. Okay. And there's only 10. Now I have tried to make it relevant to what you do. Okay. Okay. This or that. Question number one, digital or film photography? Digital. Black and white or full color? Full color. No context, remember. Studio portraits or outdoor shots? Outdoor. Sunrise or sunset for the perfect photo? Action shot or perfectly posed? Action shot always. Cityscapes or natural landscapes? Cityscapes. Raising awareness through events or taking on physical challenges? Raising awareness. I guess the physical challenges could be climbing and then raising awareness is the exhibition. Yeah, can I say both? Come on then, I'll let you. Because we fucked about so much at the start. with the tech, then yes, you can. You get a pass. Question number eight, capturing joy or documenting raw emotions? Documenting raw emotions. Question number nine, work-life balance or hustle and growth? work-life balance because I've got kids. Question number 10, leading the moment or letting the moment lead? letting the moment lead. There you go. There you go. Simple as that. you know how hard it is to not give context to all of my answers? know, but you can't give context now either. It's supposed to be a short game, but thank you for getting involved with that. Right. Now the closing question is from my mum. Love that. So this has been a standing part of the podcast since it started. And mum is going to say a question down the phone here. So she leaves me a voice memo. I love this. And I play it down the phone. I always apologize in advance. We'll see what she says. Hi Mia. I wondered if you could advise me on the best way to store thousands of photographs so that they can be safe for future generations and also be enjoyed. Thank you. my god, I love her. Her name is Lisa. She's, she's, all I tell her is who I'm speaking to and what we're speaking about. Now. She wants to ask about photography, but she's asked one of the most practical questions ever asked. love it. did you need me to repeat it? No. Or are you all right with it? I am all right with it's Lisa if you want to answer the question. Right, Lisa, I would say there's two ways because if you are meaning lots of digital photos, which this is what I say to all my clients, especially like when I give wedding photos and stuff, I say, back up your photos to like a cloud. The cloud scares me. I have no idea what it is. It's just like the head of Macmillan, you don't know where that is. The cloud is somewhere. Back your images up to even like ones on your phone, you just send them somewhere in the cloud. You know they're looked after. And then back them up onto two hard drives, keep one in a really safe place and then keep one that you can keep every day that you can access all the time. And then what I always say to people is print your photos. Don't just keep them on a screen, like having a physical print of photos. is so much more than just looking at them on the phone. And then what I do when I print photos, I have copies up on a wall and then I'll always do smaller prints of the same photo. I put them into photo albums. Do you want to the question there? And also, I know it sounds silly, but in waterproof boxes, I know it sounds like when I say it to people, sounds ridiculous, but print your photos, put them have ones that are out and then you have ones that are in boxes that are like, mean, you all know that I'm not gonna be doing this but organized in like date years and stuff but ideally is like have them all organized so you can go to it but yeah in like waterproof boxes like one up in the loft and if you can have one in like an I know this sounds ridiculous, but this is my brain goes into like, what if you have a house fire and you lose all your photos, keep some in other people's houses as well. It's so dramatic because I know it's just a photo, but to me, nothing is ever just a photo. course it's not. mean, this is your life, isn't it? So much of it is And another thing that I do is I've set both my kids up email addresses and I email them. photos of themselves. When they're older, are able to access all the photos and little stories with it. What a takeaway that I am taking on board right this minute. That is such a lovely thing. then they can access that when they're older. Just don't forget the passwords and stuff. And also when they give a shit. Because at this age, and now kids are similar ages, they see photos of themselves. The biggest thing is them taking a selfie of themselves. how you love looking at pictures of kids? of yourself as a kid. I love it. I do. Yeah, that's what I mean. As a kid, I was looking at pictures that were taken a couple of years ago, and definitely in my early 20s looking back at me as a teenager, I would have hated that so much. as an adult, you appreciate it so much. I'm like, I wish there was more. So now I'm like, yeah, I do that. That's such a lovely takeaway, Mia. Thank you so much, mum. I hope that's answered your question. Thanks Lisa. We'll see if we can get you any free advice again before the end of the season. Mia, it's been such a pleasure and I never want you to apologise for whatever tangent you go off on. I've gone on way too long though and I knew I was going to do that. and it's your time you've given so thank you but it's just been so inspiring. I'm honoured that we've got some of your work in our house. Sophie will shoot me if at some point on the back of this I don't ask if you can come and do it again. Yeah, you're a legend and I love you. I've watched your journey from afar and just been so inspired by you. So thank you. Thank so much for having me. Thank you. Cheers. Thanks for listening to Jobsworth. If you enjoyed this episode, please feel free to give us a follow wherever you listen to your podcasts and while you're there, if you could take two seconds to rate the show, that would be awesome. 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