JobsWorth Reshare - Pens, Paper and Purpose.

In the first of our JobsWorth Reshare episodes we revisit my brother Luke's interview, first shared on the 13th December 2023. 

 Do you ever feel like you're living a life that's not truly your own? You're not alone. I've invited my brother, Luke Adam Hawker, an accomplished artist, best-selling author, and father, to share his journey of trading a stable job for one fueled by passion. We dive into his past, his transition from a graphic designer and architect to a successful artist and author, and the balancing act of fatherhood and career.

Luke lets us in on the brave choice he made to leave a traditional job and start his own design business. Yes, he did trade a seemingly glamorous job of designing palaces for the Saudi royal family, but he found it lacking in passion. He reflects on the importance of following one's passion and the significance of a supportive network when taking the leap into entrepreneurship. We also discuss our shared experiences as fathers and entrepreneurs, highlighting our trials and triumphs in trying to strike the right balance.

The journey to finding purpose and fulfillment in one's work is never an easy one, but it's rewarding. Luke’s journey, achievements, and legacy offer hope and inspiration to anyone considering the path of self-employment. We discuss the rewards that come with taking risks, the importance of transparency, and the role of a supportive partner in pursuing creative projects. Listen in and get inspired. Whether you're contemplating a career change, an aspiring artist, or a parent juggling work and family life, this episode is for you.

The JobsWorth website is here www.jobs-worth.com

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Contact me using hello@jobs-worth.com

Chapters

• 0:00 JobsWorth Reshare Introduction
• 1:41 Episode Intro
• 2:53 The Early Career Path
• 5:57 Transitioning to Self-Employment
• 9:02 The Leap of Faith
• 11:57 Achievements and Milestones
• 15:01 The Impact of Family Influence
• 17:57 Creative Legacy and Meaningful Work
• 25:46 The Journey of Creating a Book
• 28:41 The Impact of Fatherhood on Creativity
• 32:04 Balancing Work and Family Life
• 36:58 The Challenges of Self-Employment
• 41:33 Reflections on Employment vs. Self-Employment
• 49:55 Exploring New Directions in Art

Transcript

0:00

Hello and welcome to the first of six Jobsworth ReShare episodes we're going to be putting out there. I tend to script these introductions usually, but I think as we revisit some of the most listened to episodes, you're just going to have to put up with my waffle. So apologies in advance. First conversation we're going to revisit is an episode I recorded with my brother, Luke Adam Hawker, back in 2023. It still takes number one spot as the most downloaded episode of Jobsworth to date. I think Luke... admit this too, he's got a slightly unfair advantage with his half a million Instagram followers but it remains one of my favorite conversations I've had. Yes, I'm biased and I'm being completely sentimental but having an opportunity to sit down in a room with my brother for any period of time is rare with us both having young families and businesses to run so just having an hour-ish to sit down together felt like a success in its own right. Since recording this episode Luke has achieved even more Whilst working for himself, he's got more book deals lined up with titles due to come out in the next six to 12 months. He has signed a deal for a collaboration with an incredibly talented poet called Robert Woodfarlin. He's also become a Woodland Trust ambassador, which was a huge goal of his and something that he's incredibly proud of. So I hope you enjoy listening to this episode. If you have any questions or if you want to get involved in the comments, wherever you are listening to these episodes, then we are trying to build a community here. want as much listener interaction as possible. So get involved and let us know what you're thinking. Jobsworth, Season 1, Episode 12, Pens, Paper and Purpose. Welcome to episode 12 of Jobsworth, which, for the epilogue that's coming soon, will be the final full-length episode in our first season. As Jobsworth kicked off with one of the biggest inspirations in my life, it felt right that it should close with the other one. Artist, Sunday Times bestselling author, and my little brother, Luke Adam Hawker. We recorded this a while back, so you have to excuse us discussing the opening tradition to the podcast like it's a brand new shiny thing. And for the super fans of Lisa Hawker, aka Mum, you'll be sad to learn that her famous closing question doesn't feature this time around and for that I can only apologise. My brother is one of a handful of people that had a strong idea of what they wanted to do when they grew up from a very young age and we discuss the earlier part of his career from landing a job straight out of uni, being headhunted to design palaces for the Saudi royal family and the reasons behind his move away from traditional employment and what many would consider a dream job. We also talk about his experience of being a self-employed artist, the series of events that led to him becoming a best-selling author and have a very honest conversation about fatherhood and striking the right balance between his role as a parent and someone that's incredibly passionate about what they do for a living. So, without further ado, for the last time this season, let me introduce you to one of the wisest, bravest and most talented people I know. My brother, Luke Adam Hawker. Hi, bro. Right, so this is take two of us doing this conversation. Yes. We have attempted to record this before. We did fail, but that was because I think the dynamic didn't work. And ultimately, I think a lot of that was down to it turned into what I described as a family counseling session when people asked me. It became like that. So we're trying it again. The question I'm going to ask you is going to be a tradition in every episode moving forward. So I'm gonna start with when you were younger, what did you want to be when you grew up? So I'm currently an artist, but people assume I've always wanted to be one, but that's not been the case with seeing mum being an artist and it was really difficult and a bit of a struggle. But I knew I wanted to draw. So I remember a big chunk of my kind of really early, like 11 to 13, really wanted to design cars. that actually. You're just seeing scraps of paper with cards. Cars and robots and I mean, let's be honest. We were both in the geek realm growing up Okay, which I'm quite proud Yeah, and so Robot wars was a thing So designing those Loving that so designer, but I wanted to draw for a living and always kind of had that guiding force I don't say guiding lights, but that But that direction, so really even though you claim that is not knowing what you wanted to be from a young age, having an eye that you wanted to even be in design is... not what I to be, but knowing what I wanted to Okay. Loosely enough. Because you started fairly early didn't you like now now you're an artist and you started that path Fairly early. I mean you always had a talent when we were growing up, but When you started that for education, so I guess through GCSE when it kind of started But you don't have too much selection of the classes you want to do but then college. What did you do at college? graphic design, design technology, fine art. Exactly. And then you went on to do a Foundation are foundation are then into your architecture and design, okay? so you are someone that I would describe as having quite ingrained in you this feeling that you had a vision of what you wanted to do, or at least talents that you had and how you could make that a career or a living or make money from that. Yeah, and also knowing I think my weaknesses, if I'm honest. So I was good at one set of skills that was quite specific and not so good at the other ones. So in a way, sometimes it's your limitations that can lead you to your strengths, I think. Yeah, I can understand that. So when you talk about your limitations, what you mean is maybe more of what would be broadly or societally classified as academic subjects. Exams, yeah. Okay. Yeah, and that's most of academia really is kind of sitting you in a room being like perform, which is just not what I did. very well. mean, you've gone on to show that you have got academic chops though, haven't you? Both, I think growing up it was maybe if I can be so bold as to say this, I was kind of leading the way in terms of academic something. And then as we got older, you start, you started not only to just like nip up my heels, but then, well, there was a competition. I didn't think so either. It's fine. And but yeah, you were nipping at my heels and then all of sudden I think you far surpassed. in a specific knowledge range because I obsess and went specific from that early age whereas you were always broader and always had I think more natural ability to think in terms of writing. Yeah, maybe that. Put it down in words whereas I was never really that strong at doing so. Okay, that was a good answer to the question of what you want a lot there about both of us. Yeah, it's quite insightful though. So Luke is my brother. He is also a Sunday Times bestselling author and a freelance artist. So Luke was one of the main reasons I started Global Tech Collective, him and my mum, just seeing them, I think, take the path to working for themselves and moving away from the standard or stereotypical forms of employment that were open to me really. So I have a lot to thank him for and I don't think he's quite aware of how inspiring he is, but we'll tap into that now. I'm going to make him uncomfortable by just keeping giving him compliments. don't. But maybe start Luke then by talking to us a little bit about your journey in employment first of all. you do so quick timeline, go back to first. start from education up to your first job. out of university. from uni, so I studied interior architecture and design at Nottingham Trent University and then part of the course and the reason I chose it was, so in the third year I spent working in London, so it's a sandwich year course, so that was like really appealing that they would just send us out into the industry and we'd live and work in London for a year and that was the best year of education, just getting out there as most people probably find. the real world is. And then when I graduated, I worked for a branding agency. So doing like interiors, but linked to brands. Then I went to more of an architectural firm and did architectural projects, small scale architectural projects. And then I was headhunted for more of an interiors role, but you know, like a concept, concept designer role. So where they saw my bit, what happened was I was getting drawn into this CAD working on computers, not where I wanted to be. And people saw from my portfolio, my drawing ability and then hired me specifically for that reason. And that's where things went really well for me because I was drawing on my strengths, no pun intended, and stood at the drawing board and just creating and getting recognition. And I guess the... financial reward for that skill. It was really good. And then alongside that, was drawing for my own satisfaction and just going out into London and drawing to of connect to it. Eventually I built up this body of work where I thought, okay, I'm going to give it a go and try and sell some exhibitions and markets. Got to the point where I was covering my rent and then quit my job to pursue that in 2015. 2015 has it been that long now so eight years you've been freelance you don't like freelance though do you? Because you run your own freelance implies that the projects are client led. Okay. I don't know why they were early on. Now they're not. Yeah. Okay, I understand that. So you went through a number of firms before making the decision to go on your own and start Luke Adam Hawker as a I brought my middle name into the equation why did that happen? quickly, I don't want to go off on too much, but... you got to realize when I was a designer, I was Luke Hawker. And then alongside that, I wanted to push my artistic portfolio and like me as an artist, right? So I didn't want them clashing. So I brought in my middle name. That also made me more unique when it comes to searching. So if you put Luke, you're gonna find me. you put Luke Hawker, you might get some Kiwi actor. was just about to reference the actor. So you do get a few so there's that reason part of me regrets that but I don't think I could have done it any other way But It's just it's clearly the stronger name because I'd say about 30 % or more emails start with hi Adam My email is Luke at Luke and Hawker. Hi Adam And in person it's not it's something going on a big chunk of people do it. It's good night So you got to the point, you made this decision to, I call it jump or leap into working for yourself. what, take us through a bit about the journey that took you to even thinking this could be a potential option for you. And how much of that do you think was influenced by our main role model, which was mum working for herself as well. Yeah, so she's obviously played a big role, but I'd say the inspiration from Mum was more impacting at a younger age rather than when I took that decision. It wasn't a case of looking at what Mum was doing and thinking, oh, I can... It just wasn't. think early days, her encouragement and proof that you can kind of put value to those skills, that influenced me. in a more subconscious level. When I took that decision, it was more of a, I felt like I'd achieved a lot as a designer, as an interior designer effectively, and had traveled a fair bit. And I was kind of in a place where I was like, well, the only way up here is away from creativity. A lot of people in design firms probably understand that actually to go up in terms of up that ladder, then you're going to get further away from the activity that probably brought you into the industry in the first place. You become project manager, you become, you're spinning plates, which is hard, but further away from, from probably your, your strengths, especially for me. Yeah. So that, that's why I've, why not, why not try. I think as well what you described there is is getting sucked into that kind of ladder of progression is a situation a lot of people found them find themselves in within any industry that not necessarily creative but Sometimes the tools that you use to get you the kind of recognition that gives you those opportunities to progress What they tend to mean progression opportunities is usually people management. Yeah because then you've got more control of the bigger part of the company and they can was the sum, because you need people that have that skill set and want to manage people. But again, from my experience, I was in an agency for seven and half years, got an opportunity to progress, or I was six years in at that time, and then was given this opportunity to progress into a management role. And it was really, I think, what tipped me over the edge to leave anyway, because it just didn't fit my strengths. Yeah, I you could perform in that role. I could not have done it. I just, I can't, I find it really difficult to commit to something I'm not fully behind. You can say passion. know I banned you from saying. Okay, so we get to this point. You've had your tradition, more traditional forms of employment and you decide to take the leap. Do you remember considering it was now eight years ago, the conversations you were having with people around that time, was it met with support? Was it met with further questioning that started to make you doubt yourself at all? What do you remember anything about? one, everyone got behind me and everyone said yeah, do it. Because I think they knew that what was the alternative, know, what's the alternative for me is just regret. Nobody wants that, especially loved ones. And I don't have a huge pool of friends I'm regularly speaking with. So it'll be you, Lizzie at the time, and mum, and Harry maybe. Yeah, Lizzie is Luke's wife. Yeah. Well she wasn't the time, she was my friend. Oh, right, And then girlfriend. We don't need to go into detail on that. And Harry is our dad as well, just to clarify. I mean, I didn't really mean from our perspective, because I know that you're always going to be getting support and we'll champion what I think us as a pod or as a family have always been very supportive. that. Orcas. Orcas. Oh, nice. OK. But as a family, we've always been supportive of whatever any of us want to try and do. And then I guess my focus was more around colleagues. And then how did your boss at the time or the people manage you when you said what you were going for? Did you tell them that you were leaving that business to go and start on your own? can't remember. Honestly, refreshing. I can't remember. I can't remember the... I remember just feeling really excited to have my notice in. Probably good to explain that I wasn't truly invested in the projects that I was working on. Talk to us a little bit about this, when I, especially at family parties, I go and me and you stood next to each other and we talk about what we do for a living. My piss-taking introduction for you is, Luke designs, Luke used to design palaces for the Saudi royal family and I'm just a recruiter. To which most people go, huh, what do really do, John? I'm like, no, I'm literally just a recruiter. But tell us what you did. Because it's interesting, outwardly, don't like that. I know, but that's fine. That's maybe being self-deprecating, but outwardly it sounds like what you were doing would be a dream job for a lot of people that are training or studying in your space. Yeah, I got a job for a recruiter, mind you. so basically I was working for the Saldaró family and it's not actually something I'm proud of saying at all. It was really fun, no budget, brilliant, memorable stories, travel experiences. So I don't regret doing it, but there comes a point where you're looking at the projects and you just what you're leaving behind is just not what you really... should be that legacy. I guess a lot of what you doing at the time was the legacy you were building and because you're leaving like a tangible thing behind you aren't you? Your input is helping to build a tangible thing that might stand for centuries, like literally. Yeah, and I'm happy that I've created some spaces that I was really proud of, it's kind of who's enjoying them and in what way. Understood. So in moving to being self-employed, we self-employed is right, isn't it? Cause you were self-employed. Okay. So, so moving self-employed, you had this autonomy to do the projects you wanted to do. What you were after was probably trying to find something that you were more engaged by and was more meaningful. Yeah, and I already had all the ideas in my head. So it wasn't like leaving a job and being clueless as to what to do. It felt like I was off the starting block and had the time to do it. I direction that I was kind of running in parallel along time in my work. So for a big chunk of that work, I was just disengaged with the job and doing my own bits alongside it. When you were disengaged and when maybe you felt like there wasn't meaning behind the work you were doing, did that impact you in any negative ways? Some of the studies I've read about lack of meaningful work can lead to low mood, even depression as well. No, I felt like back in those days, I just felt really resilient to lows really. And it's only in recent years where I've experienced the realities of that side of things, mental health coming in. Yeah. Okay. So eight years on, it's fair to say that it's not a fluke that you're still working for yourself. There's been some huge success that you've had along the way. What are some of the biggest achievements you've made in the last eight years that you're most proud of? Just specifically on work. If you say little Harry, I appreciate having a No one cares. Talk to us about your biggest work achievements. So I go for it early days was just growing that online sales year on year. So I used to sell a lot at markets and that might sound a little bit strange, kind of pursuing a career in art and selling at markets, but it was such a great way to just tap into an audience, just passing by. And actually if you can captivate an audience that is just walking by in the street rather than... gone to specific exhibition, you're doing quite well. So I felt confidence from that. then year on year, so for the first three years, my online sales were doubling each year. That gave me confidence and enabled me to invest. One of my biggest career achievements, which was my trip around Europe, which I view as both a life goal and a career achievement because my purpose for traveling is so... Just brief recap of the trip, brief. I love a I did three months around Europe in my camp at that, called Brian. And just drawing. So my sole purpose of traveling was drawing 11 countries, just traveling through all these new experiences. I felt like I did a lifetime of traveling and a huge body of work, which then I got back and just felt like a completely kind of shaken off. the designer, interior designer Luke. Yeah, and just felt really positive about the future, which was nice. 2018 that was so probably whilst the whole Brexit thing was happening, definitely happening. So I had that freedom, which is anyway, we won't get into that, but had that freedom. cast. which just built me up really. And I had times I was really lonely, so had to bring in kind of that mental health tools of just being a bit more resilient to that loneliness, which I hadn't really felt throughout the trip. Yeah, it was just formative. So then after that, big achievements. So Westminster, Big Ben, covered in scaffolding for renovations for some years actually, 2018. I went along to draw it my ease, or I'd never really been interested in drawing it. I shy away from things that too iconic, that come across as quite kitsch when you're just covering the same ground everyone else has. So this was something new, and I think that something that embodied what was going on at the time. And... So that ended up being picked up by the Parliamentary Art Collection, went to committee, I sold to the Parliamentary Art Collection. found I had enough money from that and a number of commissions through Soho House to build up enough money to buy a house. Not in London, sadly, so I moved out, but I'm really glad I did now. So I see that as like one achievement. I know it's strange. I should be breaking this up more. I'm going for my life. I would have definitely been surprised if you hadn't picked Big Ben and selling that to Parliamentary. I can say why it feels really big for me. It's because it's definitely one of my artworks that will be looked after long after I'm gone. N***a legacy. Talk to us about that. actually having a piece of work bought by the Parliamentary Art Collection means what for that piece of work? it will be housed in parliament and protected for as long as parliament exists. which I would imagine would be a while. I mean, it's incredible. I was there at the unveiling of that. Obviously we knew about it having been acquired, but I was there at the unveiling. I can't remember what part of West, not Westminster, it was at, but I just remember it being a big occasion, lots of people queuing to get in and it was a really big evening. Yeah, it was a lot of fun. Yeah. Wow. Okay. So I mean, for me, just interjecting as well, I'm not trying to blow smoke up your ass because you're my brother, but things like creating a book, quite a big deal. Yeah. Then creating two books, I think quite a big deal as well. Yeah. Maybe not the career, not the goal that you had when you first started setting out to do something like this as well. So talk, talk to us a bit about the book ever because that was, a project that culminated during one of the most trying times for people around the world. So tell us about that. Yeah, so books I'd never imagined creating, but I've written about this actually before by... I've not been a big reader, you'll know this. So sketchbooks are kind of my thing and I never really saw the potential to publish, I guess, my artwork. It hadn't really crossed my mind in book form. And then we came up with the idea. me being me and you, to come up with a project that was inspired, so you write poetry, maybe people don't know that but you do, it's amazing. So we came up with the idea that we'd make a book or a body of work at least where I would draw an image that was kind of based on my imagination really and then John would write a poem about the image, inspired by the image and I put that out on my Instagram and That combined with a lot of more reflective work about what was going on around the world, I think was picked up by a publisher, Marianne Laidlaw, who saw the potential in my work, sadly not John's work. wasn't a fan. Poetry is very... Anyway, we won't get into that. So I ditched John on this journey of making a book. That's what it sounds like, but you know... mentioned in the acknowledgements though, which is nice. are. And so, yes, I ended up going on this journey of creating this book through lockdown. It took three months to create its image, an image led book, you might say, pitch book or graphic novel. And it was a very personal project. So it's based on our late granddad, Brian. He was the main father figure for us growing up. So it was me, my brother, I can't say my brother looking at talking to? Are you talking to me? No, it's fine, I'm just double- was just very aware people might be listening. more. So yeah, so it wasn't it John, it was me, you, Mum and Grandad for the majority of our formative years. where am I going with this? so the book. So he's the main protagonist along with my current dog Robin. And so I went back through a lot of those memories and I was trying to encapsulate his kindness and empathy in this book because I thought that would make the... perfect character to lead you through this storm which forms a metaphor for Covid and lockdown and etc. So that was really well received and yeah became Sunday Times bestseller, it's in 11 languages. It was yeah quite a big a big moment and led to the next book. and the next book is the last tree and yeah i mean it's and that's been amazing part i think of of your journey to observe as well and witness both the It sounds like cliche, but the blood sweat and tears that you put into actually creating these bodies of work and then turning them into books and it's just incredible. But then to see it received, so I think it's a dream just to publish and then for it to be really successful as well just shows that what you're doing is, it's not just me and mum think it's good. Yeah. People agree. But the second book took a hell of a lot longer than three months to create because of my son coming along. So talk to me then about the impact of little Harry, so Harry's my nephew and your son, but little Harry coming along on what it's like to work for yourself because I mean we can both maybe share some stories around this as well but what's your experience been as a dad and a dad that works for themselves and you know it's just being full transparency is the primary earner for your household as well. It's hard to compare. I can only give it my perspective, but I can't say if it was... So it's been really difficult, really difficult, because you have the freedom to spend time, which is amazing, but then it's like it swings back in your face because then you've got the anxiety and guilt about not putting as much time into your work. as you should be, but then there's this whole question mark about how much time you should be putting into your work when you have this new human you've created and need to really invest in. So I really struggled, but also I realized that I needed to make a change. So I now have an assistant, Laura, who's in those early days, especially was really integral to just keeping things going. So I send prints out regularly for my online sales and still do markets. So there's a lot that I still have to do. But things inevitably slowed down and I felt like far less of an artist. And it's because I attribute so much of myself to being an artist. this is the, I guess this is the drawback of pursuing your passion. so wholeheartedly is that when you have to make sacrifices around it, you feel them on a really personal level. It's not just a financial hit, it's what I am right now. And I think everybody feels it to a degree when they're a parent, this loss of identity. So I just think that maybe you can feel it more acutely when you really do want to be cracking on with those projects that... And there's a we had this discussion before I think there's a lot of guilt around that as well. Oh, the the guilt that comes from wanting to invest time in something you generally care about two things you generally care about but one being this this thing that was built before your your babies come along and that ultimately supports and enables you to have the lifestyle and you have and your family have and also this human being that you we're fortunate enough to have a conscious decision about wanting to bring into the world and how much of your time you would invest in that. And for me, what I find really difficult is at times when I'm in the office, I will sit here thinking I should be at home with the kids. And there are times when I'm at home with the kids, when I should be thinking I should be really at work and I'm nowhere. You're stuck in this kind of tree basically where both sides of your head are just beating yourself with a stick. So it's quite a, a brutal mindset to get in. Do you think that, because the nevour of us have experienced fatherhood through employment, traditional employment, having a boss, do you think that the challenges are greater? I mean, it's hard to know we need someone else really that has gone through it. Because I feel like although they've been great, the challenges, being self-employed, I just could not have made it through, nor could my family have made it through without that. freedom to say no Maybe nothing's gonna be getting done at all for the next two three weeks Because I need to be there. I know it's part because my son has had extra needs along the way hmm But I just can't fathom it and I for people in that position because they might be listening to us thinking all That's the guilt issue Although we know it's a very big one having it more like a fear of losing your job That anxiety might even be greater or not, I don't know. no, I completely understand that. My experience, so there was a time where I I sort of transitioned from your stereotypical form of employment into working for myself around the time that Finlay was one. Finlay turned one literally as I was starting Global Tech Collective. But when Finlay was born, so Finlay's my oldest, he's now five years old. I want to say five days after he was born, he lost a drastic amount of weight and we were back in the hospital for... three or four days. So ultimately all I was given at the time were two weeks of paternity leave. Madness. And regardless of what happened, I had to be back into the office after that point. Now, if I compare that with how long I took off for Bodhi when he was born, so Bodhi's now two, I probably... Sorry. Yeah, I've just gone back to normal working hours. But no, think when Bodie was born, I had that time and the autonomy to be like, okay, I will gradually allow myself to get back into this. I'll admit this, don't know if I'll admit this to my behalf. She will listen to this, so I'm admitting it her anyway. I was writing emails, sending offers out to candidates in the very early stages of when she was in labor with Bodie as well. Wow. Yeah. Which I'm not proud of, but ultimately the labour lasted... No, the labour lasted 14 hours so I didn't feel like I was going to get in too much trouble. I wasn't doing it as Bodhi was arriving. Some people were checking like football results and things like that. I was pretty engaged, I was pretty engaged, but I think I had all of that autonomy. So actually the sort formative months of Boli's arrival was so much, I just felt so much more present because I can invest myself in the way that I wanted to. So yeah, I would, I have no doubt that maybe people that listening to this that are still employed and have a boss, especially a boss that isn't understanding, will be thinking what a privileged position for us to be in, being dads with our own. businesses that can can build that around our families. Yeah, and I'm grateful for that, so it's not like I am. Yeah, yeah, I think if I zoom out far enough, then yeah look back, think what are the alternatives? Yes, it's been really hard but step back, what are the alternatives? Well, this is the other thing as well. When we talk about work life balance and I think for a lot of people that work for themselves, you'll hear, you know, I wouldn't say horror stories, but you'll hear really negative stories of people that just don't have a work life balance. For me, when you're self-employed, it's more about work life integration. And then when I zoom out, okay, if I, if I look at any given week, my work life balance probably isn't as good as it might have been when I was working for someone zoom out over a year, my work life balance is a hell of a lot better. Because whilst I might commit two, three weeks where I've got my head down and I am working hard and I'm prioritizing work over things like health, unfortunately, and sometimes relationships and a bit of self care, well actually, I combat that by giving myself a lot more time after as well. So would I have got that flexibility working for someone? 100 % no. So yeah, that's a really good point. And I think businesses now that are starting to offer... enhanced paternity policies or parental leave in general, I think they're the ones that are to be able to attract people and retain people moving forward. Hopefully it's going to be a rarity in the future that we're going to see two weeks of paternity leave. be. And also just the nature of choice, and that's what people have when they choose a job, hopefully, is that it means the companies will only benefit from the more they offer. So they're going to get the best staff because more than ever now people are looking at a salary and well, this is kind of what I've learned from you, looking at the salary and the package around the salary. And it really matters probably more now than ever. Well, because it doesn't matter at all if you've got a huge salary and remuneration in terms of your bank account, you've not got the balance to actually go out and use any of it as well. So talk to me a little bit more about some of the specific challenges you've been working for yourself for a period of time. Harry comes along, Harry's now two. What were some of the specific challenges that you faced between juggling this, new job which is fatherhood and the existing job which is running Luke Adam Hawker. So for a big chunk of that, for his existence, I've been working on the second book. So I would say, and this might be very specific to a creative project, but your head is in it. So I'm lucky that my family is very tolerant of me being a daydreamer, and I think I always have been. Not so very rare, the whole time I'm with someone, I'm fully present. And that sounds really bad. I'm not kind of looking down on my phone or anything. It's just me thinking about other things. And actually, when I have a creative project, I'm doing that a lot more. So when I'm going for the family walk in the woods, I'll end up talking about the project. And actually, having a partner, i.e. my wife, who is really creative herself and supportive of my work, I can't... I don't think anybody else would tolerate me unless they found that side of me interesting. So the challenges were just on the time front, So prioritizing where to spend my time in the studio or at home. But they're a three minute walk away and I can have Harriet the studio for a bit with Liz. So I guess to be honest, I'm finding it hard as it goes on because At first you're telling yourself, this isn't for long and eventually I'll be able to just go full steam ahead with my creative work. And in that time whilst things have been more focused on either the, you know, mainly on my family and then my book, everything feels a bit like a side hustle in relation to your family. And now I want to give so much more to my projects, which I have been doing probably in the last month, but then you've got that guilt. creeping back in. So I would say that it will probably never really go away. It's just that you become the people that you're trying, you're feeling guilty about letting down, kind of let you know in a transparent way that no, you're not letting them down. And then that kind of takes away the guilt. It's not through a lack of juggling. It's through an increase in communication and understanding between the people you care about. Yeah, that's a really good point. I think it's that transparency between the people that are impacted by what it is you're doing and that time you're spending away from them is key, isn't it? And it's funny you bring up the role of Lizzie, your wife, in being that... partner and that cheerleader and someone that you can also use as a sounding board. I think a lot of the people I've spoken to reference someone in their life, not always their partner, but someone that acts as that, whether it's inspiration, whether it's someone that can level you slightly, whether it's someone that can give you free therapy, whatever it is. Yeah, just complete just real frank feedback Honest feedback on the projects I'm doing which is really useful because I think it's quite rare and then also on the other hand when I'm feeling low then she'll remind me of my achievements and that will Move towards like lifting me out of It's one thing when your family do it, in like me and mum. And hopefully you know we're always being honest about it, but I think it's fair to say that mum's default position is, I'm gonna make you feel better by just giving you every compliment under the sun. Nine times out of ten, she's a hyper positive. I don't disagree at all, but sometimes you need outside, parties away from that nucleus telling you, they could even tell you exactly the same thing. but just having that conversation makes a huge difference. So a question I've got for you then, would you ever go back into full-time employment with a boss, that kind of stereotypical world of work? Definitely not. But... Well, I guess, again, it all comes down to time and freedom to spend my time, which is the ultimate wealth. Like, regardless of anything, we're all, let's say, is right, we all live to, say, 75 or 80 probably now. We all live to 80 and we've all got this allotted... number of hours in our lives if we're lucky and How do we how are we spending it regardless how much money we're bringing it in bringing in how are we spending that and and if I look back on my life and Think and I think I've done my best to spend as much as my time here Doing the things I love and the things I am passionate about and they hate the word passion But it's important. It's an important one. Then it will lead to less regret and more fulfillment and more purpose. So I would never, I shouldn't say never. Well this is the thing isn't it, because I say exactly the same thing and I'm quite outwardly outspoken about this on any platform that they allow me to That's interesting though because your role in many cases is finding people to work for other people. So that's an interesting... So I have, I did it. So I worked for someone else and within a larger company for long enough to know something about myself, which is that don't necessarily want to prescribe to what normal work looks like, especially in the sector that I operate in as well. I think that allows me a perspective that better starts to filter the clients I do want to work with as well. Because not only does it take a lot for me to ever think, God, could I really work with them? Actually, that's how that's the barometer that I measure the clients that I work with by. There is an element of me that thinks, could I get behind interviewing with you? If you were interviewing me, would I find this? Will I find you someone that I could work with? Is the sort of mission you're on inspiring or lighting something within me as well? And I actually think I've used my experience. to build stronger relationships with the people that I go onto place as well for that exact reason because I know what it would take for me to go and work for someone again. Yeah. It's hell freezing over. I guess that But what's interesting, even though that's a logical stance for a recruiter, traditional recruiter, that goes in your favor because people will see that you're being honest and I think that matters more than... Yeah, people just want to know. Yeah, people just want transparency and honesty and a frank conversation as well. just to clarify you would advise No, like everyone listening John would definitely advise you to not work for anyone don't work for anyone else That's not what I'm saying. All of his clients bear that in mind Yeah, I'm basically just pushing. Yeah. narrative of work for yourself. But the amount of people I speak to had really successful careers and employment. Maybe that's been interspersed with interim or contract engagements where they're essentially working for themselves. Anyway, anyone that calls me and says, John, I'm thinking about working for myself. I will always say do it. I will always say do it. For one of the reasons you gave, which is do you want to regret not having done it or looking back on your life and thinking I gave it a go because I know from my experience I spent seven and half years in recruitment and I was unhappy not just unhappy in the organization I didn't like what I was doing for a living within two or three months bearing in mind that in another three months time after I kicked Global Tech Collective off there was a pandemic I would still say during the pandemic I was still happier than I've ever been in employment. working for myself. So I would always bang the drum to say people should do what they want to do and follow their, I'm doing air quotes here, passion because yeah. Why have you brutalized the word passion so much? it. I just think it's such a cliche and I think so many people I disagree. That's what it was about. not enough of it in the world i don't think passion i don't think there's enough of it genuine passion for things life work whatever and i'm not apathy is on the rise and passion is going down I agree with you to maybe it's not as bleak as you're making it sound but turning your passion into work and into your career that's what I have a problem with only when people are starting to peddle that as that should be the thing you want to do because you don't sometimes your passion and your work can be completely separate of course. something you start by doing as a job you can become passionate about but what I've got an issue with so I'm passionate about gardening but right now if I turn I do I have no goal at all to make that into a career anytime soon because I feel like it would just strip the joy and the experience that I have out of Really? I went to discuss a collaboration with National Trust up at Polsden Lacey. You named me not posed in Lacey you name-dropping National Trust. I mean you can't do Yeah, so anyway, my point is when they said to me, I met the head ranger and they said, well, we're looking for rangers at the moment, but when people aren't coming forward, I wondered if I started putting myself in that, like how I think I could get a lot of joy from that kind of job because I love being outdoors and there'd be something nice about just. your role being to look after land. I started thinking about you. I just see you doing it. That is one day where I, where I, you know, a job where I'm out the door. an actual opportunity. It's all well and good saying, well gardening, because you might struggle to picture it. But if, if, somebody has this opportunity, well, so do you me to send them an email? yeah. I'll put my signal. Health raising over or arrange or rage from the National Trust that my brother just mentioned once. Yeah, so my problems with passion are not about people using the word passion, it's just that I think if you are always in your head driven to try and turn your passion into a career or be passionate about what it is you're doing, I think that can lead to lot of discontentment and unhappiness. Destruction yeah, I agree. So it's something that is not blindly I would not blindly endorse but I'd say in most cases then People should probably do it. But where's your more reluctant to I'm already lot of lucked into it, but also I think, there's that cliché term that I can't remember word for word, but it's better to regret having done something than sit there regretting never having tried to do it. Within the confines of the law, thanks Luke. But yeah, I think I will always back people that want to do something off their own back, because I think it's a, I will always be honest about the challenges that you're going to face doing it, but. I think it's a good way to focus your energy. eight years in, your experience of being self-employed has been a positive one on the whole. The challenges of fatherhood have been present, but you've overcome those as well. Exactly the same story for me, I think, as well in having done those. Is there any one thing in the not too distant future that you're excited about, a project that you're working on that you just want to share? Yeah, so I guess a new direction. So one thing, summarise that I've been for so long, I've been working from observations. I'll go and take my eyes on and try and capture a sense of place. Normally around London, because I'm kind of very much based around London. And I think gradually over time, it's moved towards away from architecture and more towards nature and specifically trees, ancient trees. And that's led me into this whole world of our connection, societal connection of nature. So exploring that and seeing how I can use observation from two different locations, multiple locations to create a whole new, more surreal, imagined sense of place and just kind of be more conceptual with my work. I feel really, I do feel really excited about just experimenting more, developing more and in all honesty, creating shows that do sell out and captivate collectors and all the signs are going, all the signs are right for that happening. I've been selling more original work and I've got an exhibition in end of the month which I'm really hopeful for. So yeah, just I guess the direction is what I'm about. just creating, going back to my career as a designer and not feeling fulfilled in terms of legacy, I'm moving closer and closer to where I feel really Content not pride but just content with what I'm creating leaving behind messages behind my work and the people I'm working with the collaborations that I've kind of got lined up that I think are all in line with my ethos Which is kind of developed and is now something I'm quite proud of hmm I mean, it has been amazing to see that journey as well of that style and also your, I think your commitment to where you want to go and having that strength of mind to really get behind that direction that you're pressing in as well. And I feel like your focus, your goal has always been quite clear to you and there's very little that can throw you off that course and things will obviously get in the way. and there'll be speed bumps, but ultimately I've always seen in you from even in your, I'd say as early as your sort of late teens, early twenties, you had an idea of either what you wanted to do for a living and then as your time working for yourself continued, had a really good idea of where it is you wanted to go in terms of the body of work you wanted to create as well. So it's been really lovely to see that start to come to fruition. Thanks brother. Thank you. Yeah? Alright, that's good.