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JobsWorth Reshare - Is Minimalism For Me?

• John Hawker

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We're halfway through our JobsWorth Reshare episodes and this week we're revisiting a conversation I had with professional writer Charlie Brown back in December 2023. Is Minimalism For Me remains one our most downloaded episodes and first time out this topic really struck a chord. For some, it was genuinely a game changer. Let us know what you think. 

Craving a life less ordinary? Imagine a lifestyle not defined by possessions but by intention and simplicity. This promise is at the heart of our conversation with special guest Charlie Brown. Together, we break down the misconceptions surrounding minimalism and offer a fresh perspective on this intriguing lifestyle. Charlie opens up about her own minimalist journey, offering a counterpoint to societal pressures and proving that minimalism is not a privilege, but a choice.

We venture into our own experiences with minimalism, recounting the challenges and rewards of letting go and living unconventionally. From the pressures of societal norms to the joys of decluttering, we examine the essence of a minimalist lifestyle. In this episode, we'll share practical advice and personal anecdotes – a survival guide of sorts for those ready to tread the minimalist path. So, tune in as we redefine success and fulfillment, and prepare to be inspired.

You can find Charlie’s musings on minimalism and much more here:
https://simpleandstraightforward.substack.com/

https://charlie-brown.medium.com/

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Hello and welcome back to another one of our Jobsworth ReShare episodes. This week we're going back to a conversation I had with Charlie Brown, who, alongside her husband Sam, was a guest on the very first season of the podcast. Charlie and Sam had come on to discuss their lives as digital nomads, having made significant change after selling their business, Vino Vero. During the course of that conversation, the topic of minimalism was raised. It's still a really hard word to say. but it seemed to strike a chord with a lot of listeners and I was really curious to learn a little more about it. So Charlie very kindly accepted my invite to come on and have a bit more of a detailed discussion around it. Minimalism and Me remains one of our most downloaded episodes and not only is it because Charlie is an incredible communicator, she shares some really practical, actionable advice during the course of this conversation that you can cherry pick and start to implement. in small doses if you're even remotely interested in adopting a more minimalist lifestyle. But I also think the episode taps into something that a lot of us are giving more and more thought to at the moment, which is how do we do a little more with a lot less? So whether that resonates or you're just sat there thinking, how the hell do people live like this? There really is something for everyone in this episode. So wherever you are listening, please feel free to get involved in the comments and share your feedback and stay tuned. for the fourth ReShare episode, landing next Jobsworth overtime is minimalism for me. think that was when we really actually found sort of the movement. And it wasn't because we had so much, it was because we didn't have enough. There was a point when we had £300 to live on for a month. So once we paid rent and bills and everything like that, our discretionary spending was£300. That was the month that I was like, I think we need to, we're going to really need to cut back. And I found this sort of thing called the minimalists online. And the first thing they said was the biggest way to get a pay rise is to not spend so much. Welcome to another edition of Jobs Worth Overtime, a shorter podcast episode where one of my previous guests shares tips, insights and advice on a specific topic. Following a huge amount of interest around minimalism after my conversation with digital nomads Charlie and Sam Brown, I invited Charlie Backholm to tell us more about her experience of finding minimalism, the challenges she faced when transitioning to a minimalist lifestyle, the common misconceptions about the term and her tips for those just starting out on their journey. Whether you're after actionable advice or simply curious about the practicalities of adopting a more simplistic way of living, the next 30 minutes will leave you with plenty to think about. Cheers for coming back on and agreeing to do this. So many people were left asking me questions or just raising the point around wanting to learn more about minimalism. So can you give me a definition, and it doesn't have to be the dictionary definition of what minimalism is, so can you describe what it is in your context, what your definition is? The way I see minimalism is a structure upon which you build a life. The structure being very intentional with not only what you own, but what you don't own, also what you do, how you spend your time, and trying to bring it down a little bit from what we have become to think of as normal. Normal tends to be bigger the better, buy more stuff, always be getting bigger houses, bigger cars, bigger everything. And it's kind of saying, hang on a minute, is that really where we should be as human beings? Is that really where we're going to find satisfaction and feel contentment? is it going to be if we go a little bit lower down? So that's a very roundabout way of saying I think it's perfect though. I think it's perfect and it's probably the most concise way that you can do it when you put on the spot and ask for a definition and it resonates. One of the things that came into my head then as you were saying that is, is there a certain point that you have to reach in life in that, I call it like ladder theory, this drive, this sort of societal pressure that we have to force us up the next rung, the next rung, the next rung, whether that's bigger house, bigger car, more things, a higher paid job, whatever that is. Do you have to hit a certain level? before you're forced to think, I need to reverse a bit. Is it a privileged position to be in almost to get to that point and say, now I need to take a step back? What's your view on that? That's just something that came into my head when you were describing it. I think it's different for everybody. I definitely don't think that you have to be privileged to be a minimalist Even though I know I appreciate that's a big criticism against the movement So for me, I would say it was completely the opposite the reason I found Minimalism was not because I had got so far that I was like, no, I need to reduce it was because I didn't have enough to be able to live a decent life I think it's probably the best way of putting it so Like when I started, I didn't have a career, which was bothering me because I was 28. I hadn't managed to find anything that worked in my career. I was earning no money. And then we started the shop. So our shop, Vinnevere, our wine shop, which only really happened because we started minimalism a little bit before that, but we didn't know that that's what we would do. We didn't think about the fact that we were cutting stuff down because we had a bigger purpose in life, which was to open the store. Once we opened the store, we had no money because when you start businesses like that, you have no money. think that was when we really actually found sort of the movement. I mean, my husband found movement of minimalism and it wasn't because we had so much, was because we didn't have enough. There was a point when we had 300 pounds to live on for a month. So once we paid rent and bills and everything like that, our discretionary spending was 300. That was the month that I was like, think we need to, we're going to really need to cut back. And I found this sort of thing called the minimalists online. And they, and the first thing they said was the biggest way to get a pay rise is not spend so much. And I was like, well, but if there's any month that this is going to work, it's going to be this month. And that's when we started. So it really started from a point of necessity, not from a, have too much we need to, but some people definitely do do that. They definitely get to a point where it's overwhelming and it's too much. We started from. Nothing. Understood. It sounded as you've described it there, that the journey towards that more minimalist way of living had already started without the minimalism label attached to it. And then by going down that rabbit hole, as a lot of us do, any given topic, you start to learn about the pros and that that might be a way of living that aligns with how you want to do it moving forward. But based on, as you say, necessity, which is interesting. I'm going to be really honest. My interest was piqued about minimalism. during our conversation. And I'm probably in that former camp in that I feel like I have been stuck on the ladder, just pushing for more, pushing for more. And then the pandemic did a number on me completely where I was just forced to reset. And I think it did for a lot of people, but forced to reset and think about what was important. And the words you gave me last time we spoke, which is intentional, I absolutely loved it. Just wanting to be more intentional about the way I was living. And a lot of that is down to, or, plays a part in how I'm spending money, the material possessions I've got. So I am probably a little bit more in that former camp. I've got no shame admitting that. Maybe it's nice that we're sort of occupying both ends of the spectrum there to a degree. I guess it does become necessity though, if you really commit to it enough, it is necessity that you're doing it for. Okay, thank you for that. Because it's interesting to know the Genesis and how you came across it in the first place. What were some of the biggest challenges? mean, it sounds like you were living with the challenges there, which is how you're making 300 pound last for the course of a month. When you said, right, we are now going to adopt more of a minimalistic way of living, what were some of the biggest challenges that you faced, Charlie? For a lot of people they worry about the the getting rid of the stuff. How do you get rid of the stuff? know, or how do you avoid acquiring more stuff? And there are there are definitely ways you can do that for me That wasn't actually the biggest challenge for some reason. I like throwing away stuff I don't know you're like I think once you start getting used to doing it and you're throwing away the right stuff I really enjoyed that because it gave me like a sense of clarity and like a sense of I get very anxious when there's a lot of stuff in the house anyway So that wasn't really a problem the biggest problem with adopting a minimalist lifestyle I think is the social pressure to not. So I think that you get an awful lot of pressure from, yes, friends and family. Sometimes I've heard stories of people's families being really, really anti it because it's seen as not ambitious. It's seen as, if you're saying, well, I'm not going to continue to go up the ladder for the sake it. I'm not going to buy the new car, the new house. I'm not going to get the promotion because everything becomes, you need to earn more money, but a promotion might not be right for everybody. And that social pressure is really, really difficult. Because I always say like you have to have like a fuck you attitude if you're going to adopt this because you're going to come across so much stuff and not just from your immediate peak family, but from like the world, from society, from what you read online, from Instagram, from TikTok, even you know watching films on TV or watching programs on TV, know, all this stuff. Everything is based around the idea that you're always going up and you're always getting bigger and better. Bigger is better. That social pressure, think, is the biggest challenge. And it's always the biggest challenge. So me being 39 years old, my husband, Sam's 41, we live in a one bedroom apartment and we rent it. For a lot of people, that's unthinkable as being successful. Whereas for me, that's completely intentional to live in a one bedroom apartment. And renting is completely intentional because that gives us a life that we want. That gives us a force that's the life that we want. But social pressure says that's not a life. This is especially the case in places like America. the UK, like Australia, it's much less here, I'm in Porto now, it's much less in Europe. know, people don't always buy the next big car, for instance, here, you know, that sort of thing. But in the UK, the pressure was huge and we felt it. Yeah. I'm going to go out and just stretch that slightly further. Again, the pocket of the UK that I currently live in, I feel like there's even more of a magnifying glass there as well. So I completely understand that. think that pressure is always there. There's always that idea that you need to get out of that, that you need to become more successful. But the problem is equating success with big. I agree. And actually sometimes by the time you've realized that what you've been doing is just chasing something bigger, you've, I don't know, accrued 10 years of your life and you're looking back at it and going, what was I doing it for? And that's where I really started to embrace on the back of our conversation, that word intentional. Are you living intentionally? Are you doing something knowing that there's a goal there or doing something that supports the way you want to live your life? Half the battle is having the time to take a step back and think, are you living life in the way you want to live it rather than just getting swept up in this this current and these societal pressures. I think we've kind of touched on some of the misconceptions that people have, because we definitely brought it up about the misconceptions around the term digital nomad when we had the last conversation. I think we've touched upon some of the common misconceptions about minimalism, proliferated, I think, in a big way by a term that you've coined small. Is this right? So the social media abetted lightweight living. So is this the way? And I've read one of your articles, which is why I can reference that. Can you talk to me in a bit more detail about that? this is really, I guess, focused on the, I guess, the light that social media shines on minimalism and kind of giving this wrong perception of it, do you think? So. I really wrote that piece when I was getting quite annoyed by looking online about minimalism. And finally, it was all quite surface level. The problem with social media is it makes everything very small. It makes everything very lightweight. It doesn't often dig in. And I think with minimalism, one of the problems with that is that people show aesthetics. And this is talking about misconception. This is a big misconception that minimalism is really about aesthetics. It's about having white walls and it's about having very little in your house. I it comes back to the idea that minimalism is deprivation and it's not deprivation, it's abundance, but it's just abundance of certain things. But that's not what social media shows and that's not what a lot of minimalism writing shows. And this is why I wrote that particular piece because I was just getting irritated by just seeing the same thing a day in, day out about what minimalism is, which is just throwing stuff away when it's not. There's so much more to it than that. And I think that's one of those misconceptions that people have. Interesting isn't it as well because if we talk about a platform like Instagram and how that might reflect minimalism, I guess there's only so many ways you can do it. One of the strongest images that you can put out there is something that's sparse or white or that is scant and nothing there and that definitely builds this perception that it is a life lacking a number of elements rather than, as you say, life of abundance. think it doesn't really reflect most people's journeys through this either. Going back to the point you said there about kind of you think about minimalism and then you've got these images of white walls. It always for me, it was that kind of very sparse gallery with for some reason, like one picture hung on a white wall. And that's always the imagery it kind of evokes in my mind or did before I started doing a bit of reading, primarily it's the gate by your writing as well. The picture is definitely changing, but I think for a lot of people, they probably have the same thing that pops up in their mind. I think there's a real problem that minimalism comes from an art movement. There's a problem with the word really, mean really we should change the word. It was always coined by art so it was meant to be this idea of a very sparse thing. Then it was coined by movement, which is now what we would think of as minimalism. There definitely should be a better word, although I don't know what it is. And it's so much easier, so if you want people to understand what you do then you say minimalism, but then it comes with so much baggage so it's a bit of a... Can ask how much does the kind of environmental impact or sustainability, has that shaped the way that you continue to adopt that lifestyle? Yeah, 100%. I think that was a really big key thing at the beginning. I didn't want to contribute any more than I had to. There is an argument that like we can't do that much because, you know, it's things like power plants and big business that is fueling things like climate change. But that's only being fueled because we buy stuff really, or we buy too much stuff. And also it's about like wanting to feel okay with what you do as well and feeling like you are contributing. So I definitely thought about that the biggest time I thought about that environmental impact was when I got rid of all my stuff in the UK. A lot of people don't always think about the sort of life cycle of a product and particularly the end bit. So you buy something, but what are you going to do when you need to get rid of that thing? And when we left the UK, I was faced with that because I had to get rid of everything very, very quickly. And suddenly you're really aware about how every little thing you've ever bought, what's going to happen to it at the end? Is it going to go to landfill? you know, which isn't great. Is it going to get donated but never really used anyway? Is it going to, where's it going to go? And that really bothered me and that still bothers me. And it still defines how much I buy now. Even now I'm not buying a lot of stuff because I'm like, well, what happens when I finally want to get rid of it again? And I will, because we intend to stay imported for a bit, but eventually I know we're going to continue our travels. It means getting rid of everything again. So I think that end life cycle is really important. I was also really aware of it with things like, you know, transportation. So now I don't own a car. I don't need to own a car. I live in the middle of a big city. It's very liberating to not have a car. I'm very happy with that because it means I'm not contributing to that side. We had one car, Sam bought it. And again, that was really important to us that we had a small car that didn't do too much in the way of like environmental stuff. So it's definitely an issue. I think it's something that a lot of people who look at this are worried about. Yeah, completely agree. An interesting point you made in one of your articles, you talked about, and I'm gonna, I think I'm quoting it, but I might not be, but mentioning this feeling restless even after achieving what many would consider the end of minimalism. So getting to the end point, can you describe what you thought that was? And then... why it didn't transpire that you'd kind of completed it. And then what you do day to day, I think you talk about the journey. So focus on the journey rather than the destination as well. So I know I've thrown a lot at you there, but. I again I wrote that a very specific time I think after we'd been traveling for quite a while and I you know I was talking about the end of minimalism as people would see it so people would see the end of minimalism maybe as when you get rid of all of your stuff and you get rid of as much as you possibly can. is no more to minimize. And I was in that position for a really long time because we had got rid of all that stuff. We had a suitcase, we were traveling, you can't put anything else into a suitcase. So stuff became completely not part of my life whatsoever. I couldn't even think about it because I didn't have any way of buying anything else or acquiring it. So I replaced things when I needed to, but that was it. It is a really strange feeling because suddenly you've got more time on your hands than you realize because know, stuff takes up an awful lot of time. And when you get rid of that, you're suddenly like, well, what are you going to do with that time? And also, yeah, I just found out that I really like I like the process of getting rid of stuff. As I said, it's a very nice feeling. that's well documented that getting decluttering actually gives you a sense of control on it. And this the studies have suggested it is very good for your brain. I missed that. It's a really stupid thing to miss. You don't always get to that. that point and that's also fine. I happened to get to that point because of a very specific way that I was living. It's a complete constant process, especially if you're your sedentary, you stay in one place, you have a home, you buy things, you have to get rid of things, you have to be completely intentional all the time. So to be able to not overdo it, but it's always a constant thing. That was just a very specific thing that I was feeling at that point. Yeah, well this is a great thing about writing, isn't it? You're leaving a stamp there for people like me to go back and read at some point and there's always going to be context, it's always going be relative to the situation and the time. But I think again, it's a good message to be putting out there that minimalism isn't just the process of just chucking all your shit out. There has to be this maintenance. How easy is it to maintain that habit of not accruing and collecting items? Do you find that easy now, Charlie? Is there anything you do to maintain that? find it relatively easy because it's a complete habit. It's been a habit for sort 10 years or so. I don't find that part of it too hard, but it could become hard. And especially since I stopped and started to live here in Porto, I start to think, oh, I could buy some of those things. I could buy more crockery, know, this sort of thing. So it's definitely become more of a temptation since stopping. The way I think about it, and I've written about this before, I called it the five pillars. There are five things I identified in my life that matter a lot to me and I'm very happy to buy things around that. So my five pillars are exercise, food, wine and coffee as a thing, travel, friends and family and writing. So anything around those five pillars, I will happily buy stuff. But interestingly, those five pillars are very experienced led so I don't actually need to buy that much stuff for it. I don't need to buy much stuff for exercising because I run, I need a pair of shoes and... and an outfit and that's it. know, food, wine and coffee, I spent an awful lot of money on food, wine and coffee. Like most of my money, but that's an experience. Yeah, that's a really good point. So when you're making decisions on what to discard, I guess there aren't many things that you're buying or requiring that you'd need to discard anymore. Because again, it's become habitual. But I mean, of course, at the beginning, was lots. We all agree stuff and it was just sat around. So when it comes to discarding, there's quite a lot of information online about various rules and different ways that you can do for discarding. So there's one called the 1990 rule, which is basically if you haven't used something in the last 90 days and are not going to use it in the next 90 days, do you need it? So that helps for like seasonal clothing. point. I did things like I would look at something and be like, well, I don't know if I need it or not. So I'll put it in a box and in six months time, I'll come back to that box. And if I haven't opened it or a year's time even, if I haven't opened it, then it goes. So Sam was saying this morning when we were talking about this, he was saying, I really remember the first thing we threw out was when he went into a cupboard and brought out a box that had gone three house moves with us and we'd never opened. So I didn't even open the box. I just threw it in the bin. Like I don't, still don't know what was in that box, but so that's because that was using that rule. It was basically saying, well, I haven't used it in years. So why would I need it now? If I opened it, I may have gone, I want to keep that. Yeah. Okay. So talking about this practically then for anyone that is just starting to look at minimalism or embarking upon this journey towards minimalism, what is some of the advice or guidance that you could give based on your own experiences? The exercise that you went on to identify and define your five pillars, Charlie, did that just come naturally? Was that something that you picked up on? Was that advice that you were given to do that? Or did you just, that's your own concept? Cause I think it's really, that's a really useful tool and a really useful thing for people to try and do. but it gives you that structure and it gives you that foundation to build everything else from. I think that's quite a powerful way for anyone that may be, not even on the fence, may be willing to commit to minimalism, but needs more of a starting block. Think about the areas that you really want to focus on and where you're happy spending money and where you're happy decluttering outside of those, whatever, three, four, five pillars. Yeah, brilliant. All right, Charlie. I've got one more question for you. Can you remember, can you identify one thing that you did throw away that you have regretted since? Brilliant, you're doing it right then. Fantastic. Yes, yeah, I do know that I recognize a brand. Yeah Go. And at least someone was getting use out of it while you weren't. Exactly. It being saucepans aligns nicely with your food, coffee, wine, pillar. All right, Charlie. Well, look, thank you so much for doing that. And I think what I'm to do in the episode description for this is put some links to those blogs as well, if that's okay. And where can, we probably mentioned this in your initial episode when we recorded with you and Sam, but where can we find your writing and is there a specific place we can read about minimalism from you or is it a range of topics that you've? Fantastic. Alright Charlie, well thank you so much for taking the time to speak to me and I'm sure we'll catch up again soon. Thank you.

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