JobsWorth

JobsWorth Reshare - Mum, Mud and Motivation

• John Hawker

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On this weeks JobsWorth Reshare episode we're going back to our very first episode and a conversation I had with my mum, Lisa Hawker, back in September 2023.

Have you ever wondered how the dreams of your childhood could possibly shape your future? Well, on this maiden episode of 'JobsWorth' we explore that very concept with my guest, Lisa Hawker, who also happens to be my Mum. 

We discuss her evolution from aspiring spy and actress to a successful self-employed artist. From banking to BT, all the way through to the discovery of her true passion - ceramics, this is a tale of courage, determination, and resilience. A single full-time mother juggling parenting, work, and education, all while pursuing her dream career, Mum's story is testament to the fact that sometimes, the most unconventional path can lead to the most rewarding destination.

As she opens up about her journey, we learn about her struggles, triumphs, and the lessons she's learned along the way as well as the importance of self-belief when it comes to pursuing your dreams. 

Anyone who is lucky enough to have their mum around knows that as you get older, opportunities to actually sit down and speak to your parents are pretty rare and whilst I thought I might immediately regret the decision to have her on as the first guest I feel so fortunate I got the chance to record this. 

Enjoy. 

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Hello and welcome back to another one of our Jobsworth ReShare episodes. This week I'm going back to the very first conversation I had on the podcast with my mum, Lisa Hawker. Now, if you listen to the podcast for any period of time, you'll know my mum pops up every week with the final question for our guests. It's a great barometer to see if the guests have actually listened to the podcast all the way through, because you can see the shock on their face when they hear my mum's played out through the phone. But I invited my mum on because first off she had to say yes and also I think she epitomises everything that the podcast is about. She is someone that decided that traditional employment wasn't for her and that she was going to go and study and back herself to become self-employed and not just become self-employed, a self-employed artist. She's always been one of my biggest inspirations. I do give her an incredibly hard time because... She's a parent and I guess that's what we're all there for at the end of the day for our kids to annoy us. But it was a real honor to have this conversation with her just to be able to have this in the archives to play back to my kids one day so they can learn a bit more about what mum has achieved in her career. And it was really lovely. was proud of her already, clearly. It was lovely to get some of the feedback from listeners about how inspiring this episode was, both people that... know my mum, friends and family but also those that have never met her in their lives. So really hope you enjoy this one second time round and if you've not heard it yet I implore you to listen through to the end. Mum, yeah, she is a force of nature in all the best ways. She's incredibly strange too which you'll get a sense of during the course of this chat. So wherever you're listening feel free to get involved in the comments if you've got any feedback, if you've got any questions for the Famous Lisa Hawker and stay tuned, we've got two more of these reshare episodes left and then we start Jobsworth proper from April 16th. Jopsworth Season 1 Episode 1 Mum Mud and Motivation Welcome to episode one of Jobsworth. may have guessed from the title that my guest for this maiden voyage into podcasting is none other than my mum. Yep, nepotism is rife in this first season. Whilst I was fairly confident I'd immediately regret having her on, this was actually one of my favourite conversations of the season. Anyone who is lucky enough to have their mum around knows that as you get older, opportunities to actually sit down and speak to your parents are pretty rare. So getting this podcast recorded actually felt really special. We talk about her journey to becoming self-employed, what it was like studying, working, and then setting up a new business as a single mum, her unrelenting determination to lobby local politicians for childcare support, and the response she received, and some surprising insight on BT's approach to flexible working in the 80s. You'll find out soon enough that my mum is a regular contributor to the podcast, and rightly so, because as well as being super inspiring, Whether it's intentional or not, she's also bloody hilarious. So without further ado, let me introduce you to one of my biggest sources of inspiration, Lisa Hawker, AKA Mummy. Mum, welcome to Jobsworth. Thank you. Nice to be. Throws you when I do that doesn't it because you feel like I go into work mode. You don't know how to handle it I think just to be honest with everyone that might be listening to this all four of them And you probably on the back of this recording. We've tried to do this before haven't we so this is take two of Mum's episode because we tried to do it with my brother in the room last time and I I describe it as I did at start of Luke's rerecorded episode as well as it turned into There was a little bit of bickering involved. I don't remember it like that, yeah, yeah, it was a little bit talking over each other. We were vying for mic space, weren't we? Yeah, okay, well, yeah. agree to disagree on that one. But we're here again. I mean, you've made a journey from Surrey where you live near your favourite son to come and talk to me. So the whole reason that I've invited you on is number one, you have to say yes. And I was short of guests for the first season. So thank you. I'm pretty honest about that. So nepotism is rife on this first series because pretty much everyone I know bar a couple I know or are friends. So I'm leveraging those relationships and playing on the guilt associated with that. And then the second reason is to talk about your journey of being self-employed. Right? Don't say it. You know, you know, that's the reason. No, no, I'm just encouraging you. thank you. I appreciate that. Your journey to becoming self-employed, what it was like to step away from traditional employment into being self-employed and some of the challenges and trials that you faced along the way, in the hope that maybe it will inspire people to do the same, it may put people off. And I think, because I've known you a while, I think there might be some stuff that other people can relate to in their own journey of being self-employed or the world of work in general. Anyway. So what has become now a tradition on the podcast is to start by asking this question. What did you want to be or when you were younger, what did you want to be when you I wanted to be a spy. 100%. It was a spy first and an actress second. I don't know why I wanted to be a spy. I just longed to be a spy. I was concerned that you would say that because you told me that before that you long to be a spy when you younger. And I guess, yeah, why? Did you have any particular attributes that would have made you a spy? I don't know, it was like a mystery involved in it and a bit sort of cloak and dagger and all that kind of thing. was just, I felt that I could, I don't know, like the intrigue intrigued me. But then I quickly realized as I got a bit bigger that I wasn't really built for being a spy. Right. And climbing up the outside of building. that's in your mind. That's what the responsibilities of a spy would be Yeah, I guess so. Yeah. James Bond. Well, I took an interest in... And I guess there weren't any female role models for you to look up to. Avengers wasn't there with Diana Rigg? That is showing my age. Yeah, well I remember watching that, maybe it was reruns. Yeah. you wanted to be a spy and then actress second, when you realised that neither of those dreams were going to come to fruition, was the disappointment attached to that or were they just the dreams of an only child trying to... Probably just the dreams of an early child. just trying to expand that world a little bit. It sounds sad doesn't it? Yeah it does. This episode sounds sad before anyone started to listen. Okay, so. usually that question then links on because sometimes it's grounded in a bit more reality. then I wanted to become an artist. Is that better? I love drawing from a very young age. I like to be able to express myself through paint and drawing. drawing and now you're a ceramicist. And now I'm a swam assist. Yes. When it all links. of course it does and we'll talk about that journey to maybe working in the medium that you work in now. us back post-disappointment of not being a spire or an actress. We can miss out bits of upbringing, I guess, but your first foray into work, what did that look like? I did lots of, I say lots, I did a couple of summer jobs with my mum in Barclays Bank in Fenchurch Street and quickly found out I didn't like working in the bank. Well, I just, I'm not great with numbers. I'm quite good with basic arithmetic, but you know, it's on another level. It was, was... It wasn't the sort of work that I wanted to do really. And then I had various temporary jobs. I worked in an insurance company. Because the idea was that I was going to go to college and study art. But then I sort of hit a curve ball and decided that I'd get met somebody and I would sort of go into the field of work. So I sort of went and tried all these different jobs thinking that I could make a living. But quickly returned back to college to complete my A-levels because I thought that was a sensible thing to do. So I got my A-levels in art and photography and French, I think it was. And then I went back and started working, world of work. Sorry, it's just... I was 18 when I got married the first time, so this is all sort of... The first time. We don't need to go into all of that. That's all right. That's fine. I mean, we can go through that. That's an episode on its own. How old were you then when you realised, because I don't think I was aware that maybe you'd, before you went back to college to study art, that you realised that maybe art was a route that you wanted to go down professionally and turn it into a job. But you were saying it was earlier on. Yes, yeah, was going to after I took A levels at, no O levels at school, I went and started Havering Technical College. And the idea was that I would do a foundation course for art, which would lead to a university. But people didn't go to university quite as much then as they did when your generation. So it was a bit of a newer thing anyway. But I certainly was enjoying the course, but somehow I left and obviously went to work and then thankfully stepped back and at least took the A levels. And the reason you stopped pursuing that journey or that route of going to become an artist was because you met someone, i.e. my dad. Yes, your dad. And then was sort of a little bit sidetracked and there was a bit more impetus to go into what I describe as the traditional workspace. Office job, okay. Which again, as you've eloquently described, you didn't enjoy. No, Well, I'd started, I'd had a go at sort of banking during my, when I was about 15, 16. that a route a lot of people at that time went into? Yeah, the banks, definitely. think a lot of people are probably still there. That started, that might have started at the same time as you. I think financial sector is one that is kind of rife with bit of institutionalisation. People have been there for a long time. Yeah, but then I started looking seriously for a job as such, thinking that we were getting married. Then I took a job in a printers of an estate agents and then I even worked as an opticians receptionist as well. So I took a variety of jobs before finally finding one at British Telecom. and I worked in the directory department, which sounds incredibly boring, but it was really interesting because you got to talk to people all day and decide on their entries and things. Obviously it was much more physical. analog thing, it? Rather than the digital. There's no phone books anymore. Are there phone books anymore? don't know. I don't know. don't know. But it's all online now. Yeah, nothing was online then. So as well as, cause yeah, I mean, if I'm honest, that does sound boring and that's not, that's not me casting shade on that. Cause it's horses for courses, isn't it? But what else made that enjoyable? Cause BT are still a huge organization and would have been back then as well beyond the slightly strange borderline masochistic enjoyment of dealing with a job like that. No offense. The, was it your team around you as well? The people you're working with? Yeah, we were in a small office and there was a lot of camaraderie and, you know, talking and doesn't sound like I'm a very good employee, does it really? Yeah, it was good. It's a mixture of ages as well, which was lovely. And basically, we had a laugh and got our work done as well. And flexi time, because that was new then. I mean, it's still pretty new now to the audience with you. So go and describe what was then, if you don't want me you, what decade are we talking about? 1980 I started working. Okay, so that decades interpretation of flexi time, this is a really interesting point at the moment. I keep banging the drum for companies to be able to define what flexible working is. So define flexi time. For instance, you could get in between 8 o'clock in the morning and half past nine, roughly those times, and leave between say quarter to four and half five, six o'clock. So that was was classed as flexi time. Brilliant. Well done BT. Yeah. I still think companies, a lot of businesses struggle with that now. and you had to have half hour off for lunch, but you could also take longer as well. If you took longer, that, did you basically work extra at the end of the day? No, used to have to keep to your regulated time, because you had to work eight hours. I can't remember, seven and a half, eight hours a day. And you used to have to, you could carry over 11 hours a month, owing to the company or them owing you. But then after 11 hours, you had to work out and either take days off if you would eat so much incredibly. You had to knuckle down and do longer hours. That's amazing that I didn't think this conversation was going to go around to what the world of work looked like 30 odd years ago as well. But it certainly gave you a bit of a freer feeling about being. Because I think again for someone that was growing up in the 80s, I was born in 86, I've grown up in the 90s really, there's no way that I would have ever thought that a company, especially a company like BT would have offered that level because it's quite flexible. They companies that don't offer that level of flexibility now, let alone 30 plus years ago. okay, because one of the questions, the reason I asked you about team and what made a role like that more bearable is because now you moved into self-employed role where you do work on your own. we'll touch upon that. So you're in a relationship with my dad. You went back to college and I mean you went back to college after me and Luke were born as well, didn't you? yes, but that was a whole separate time. was just to do, that was in Horn Church, that was just to do... Right, so you went back to college till you finished off your A levels. then how long after that did you have me and Luke? 10 years after. No, not 10 years, eight years after. Eight years after. Okay. And it was after the arrival of me and Luke that you decided to go back to college again. Yes, because I was on my own and you had started school and Luke was of an age where he could join the creche at the college. Southend Technical College I think it was called then, it's obviously not called that anymore. I remember really well that crash actually not have not going there but dropping Luke. Yeah, I just have these vivid it's more like flashbacks like vivid images of Did I post my pack? I'm not thinking No, was called Jungle Cats Nursery and it was... Shout out to Jungle Cats now. They're Just had a taste of time. State of the Art nursery. It was brand new. It was actually on the ground floor of the college and it was amazing. Okay, so you're with dad, you have me and Luke, and then you and dad break up. Yes. So you're a single parent. What possesses a single parent with very young children at that time to think, I'm going to start following that passion and turn art into a career? What's going through your head at that time? Well, I suppose it was the realization that I wanted to rely on myself. I didn't want to rely on anybody else anymore because I suppose other people have gone through this obviously and they'll go through it in the future as well. When you fall in love, you put all your hopes in somebody else. So I wanted to be, it was to make myself more resilient really. And I wanted to think about what I was good at and what I could. what I could be successful at and make a living. In your own right. Yeah. Yeah, so your grandfather, who was wonderful, he helped with childcare so I could have various part-time jobs and that was great. But I was also trying at the same time, when this course was advertised, I think it was advertised the year before as well, something like it. And I was trying to get childcare and I remember trying to approach the local MP. for childcare and them saying to me that they thought what I was doing was admirable but really I should wait till my children were a bit older, they needed me. And you'd like to think in, again, 30 years in the future that that kind of stigma and stereotype of a mother's role has changed and that there's been progress. hope so. That was Dr Michael Clarke MP. Give him a shout out. I know. don't know. But I remember having a couple of audiences with him, or surgeries they're called. He's not the Pope. And him being quite, well, I need to go back. I'm good enough to make a living at this and I want to provide a future for my children. Okay, which is a hugely commendable thing, both to have the thought that you would reach out to someone and then actually go through with it and then to be sat in front of them or whatever way that played out. Yeah, that's an incredibly impressive feat to have actually done that in the first place. What were you hoping the answer would be? Yes Lisa, we'll give you funding for you to put your children into the college credit and you will be able to study. and instead you were met with your basic, essentially to paraphrase, your role is a mum until your kids are old enough and they need you. That's right. So I carried on doing my paintings, dog paintings. Explain that but that bit of context so people so dog paintings. Mm-hmm. So people would come to you I remember this in Commission. Yes This was when you were, while you were babies, I was still doing this. So the local art gallery would, like I did a couple of paintings, oral paintings, out of a dog poster book, because I'm obsessed with dogs, as you know. I did a couple of paintings, put them with the art shop, and I got some orders. And then it progressed to people doing... copies of photographs and things and doing that. So I did that for a while until you were old enough to go to school and then Luke got funding, fortunately. Grandad paid for him to go to the college creche. And it was the most fantastic experience that was one of the, if not the best year of my life really. Everything seemed to gel. You you realize that you're actually in the right place in your life. Which is great because I guess conversely a lot of people might start that journey and then maybe feel that There's a lot of overwhelm a lot of burnout because you're still a full-time parent as well a single full-time parent Yeah, you're doing your studies to better yourself. So it's all with the right motivation the right impetus to set you off on that journey But the the practicalities of parenting do you think maybe in hindsight you're looking back on it and it's easy to say It's the best year of your life, but I'm assuming there were challenges. Yeah. Were. But the actual feeling that you're in the right environment, you're being able to express yourself, your children are happy, and you seem to be moving forward. And I think that's the thing. If you feel you're stagnating and you're frustrated and you're not being able to move, that's even more of a challenge for me particularly. but I felt that we were all moving and we were all getting... was progress. living each day at a time, but actually improving, improving our, just improving life. Well you're improving on so many levels aren't you? You're building your knowledge, you're developing professionally and personally in that time as well, you're seeing the means that you're going to be able to generate for your family by I guess this continued education as well and taking those skills out beyond college as well. I was putting something creative because obviously I'd only done two-dimensional work until the time I went to college then and did this ear-rack course. It's like ear-rake without the HE on the end. Thanks for that. I don't think they exist anymore. No, doesn't exist. That's not to date you at all. no, it's East Anglian Regional Accreditation in Ceramics. think that's what it was called. And it had fantastic tutors on the course. Ben Cooper, who sadly is no longer with us, he was one of the main tutors. Liz Cully, his wife, and Steve Kelly, the sculpture teacher, and Sheila, the technician, and they all... It was like having your own dare I say great pottery throw down every day. you imagine that? Was someone crying a lot? Was one of the teachers crying? Just every time he looked at his beautiful pottery being created. But there was a real mixture. was young girls that had just left school and wanted to go into ceramics. There was a guy who was absolutely fantastic called Taz who did body casts and made this fantastic sculpture. I met my best friend Julia there, obviously. That's where I met Julia. And then there was and more mature students who had got funding to come on the course as well and they had their stories so and you had quite elderly gentlemen on the course that were doing the most intricate pieces that had already worked in ceramics or not worked but done it as a creative pastime and they were all there as well so you had all these people all different generations again mixing and you know, enjoying what each other was making, but also with some sort of framework that you're learning skills, you were learning how to different glazes, different glaze. So did you go into that knowing that you were going to use that as a platform to then start working for yourself and being self-employed? Or did you go into that to learn and hone those skills that you knew you had at some level, but you wanted to go and double down on that? Well, when I first went on the course, I wasn't really that optimistic, though it looked a great course. The idea of this being a vocational course and the fact that you could earn a living from it was the main factor that I wanted to try and learn ceramics. But my previous foray into ceramics had been an evening class where I'd done throwing on the wheel. And I wasn't particularly keen on that. I wasn't 100 % enthusiastic when I started, but then I realized that there was so much you could do just hand building with clay, know, just using your hands, no wheel to be seen. Doing it, I automatically was drawn to making things that sounds big headed, but people wanted to buy. One of the first things I made was a big ceramic panel that one of the key made at the time. They were funding this particular course or part of the college. And on the opening show, know, the unveiling show of all the work that we'd done, they bought three of my pieces. So that was sort of inspiration to carry on. think it's fair to say then it wasn't a clear goal for you to start being self-employed. It was more about the course itself, educating you and where it could potentially lead. And then through this chain of events, you're then sat there being offered money for three pieces of your work and then thinking, wait a minute, light bulb moment, I could actually be doing this and making a career out of it. How'd you develop from there? how did you deal with that? How do you deal with people offering You money for your work, had you already priced it? What was the process? They have, they always have a sort of idea in mind because, because obviously when you're, this wasn't like a big degree show either that you get now where people are more clued up with money. This was, had a, they had about a thousand pounds budget, I think. Right. And I mean, this is going. I was going to say at the time, it's different. About 30 years isn't it? going back over 30 years. I asked for... I suppose I... I cheeky? Was I cheeky? I don't know. Is it cheeky or is it knowing is it having a bit more about you to know that I knew that it was worth what I was asked. That's not cheeky then is it? That's knowing your value. And they bought it and they put it into their reception in their South End on sea premises. I don't know if they're still... Keymed are still going. I don't know what capacity and what that looks like and maybe those offices don't exist, but Keymed is an organization. So if you want to come for round two, Mum has got some pieces to acquire again. Okay. So then that act is as your, as your kind of pipe form really to think, wait a minute, this is, this is not a pipe dream anymore. This is actually a reality. I've made money. I've asked for money that I feel is the right level to value the work that I'm doing and if I can continue this. this could work. But I still wanted to continue the skills that I was gaining. But unfortunately, the ERAC course only lasted for that year. Right. And then as with a lot of colleges, it was starting to turn into some sort of academy or university. And so it was changing. So you had to sign up to do a foundation course on the premise that you were going to do a degree course. But obviously that wasn't feasible for me because I had two children. So I couldn't have done a degree course, but they still managed to sign me up for the foundation course. I would be a floating potter, you like, a floating ceramicist. And I think I was there with Julia and then Linda, my friend, who was also there. And we were just using materials, obviously having the course funded but with it was an open goal really and then I stayed there as long as I could I think for another two years or another year and a half and then it was well what do I do now and luckily I don't know what I would have done without my father he he went with me to Barclays Bank and we got a business loan and How much was that for? you remember?£5,000 I think it was. I think it was £5,000. And I bought, I mean a kiln would cost over £5,000 now. I've still got that kiln. I bought a kiln and he also obviously built the workshop, got the workshop built in our tiny postage stamp garden. I was going to say, my experience of our garden growing up was like a, I mean, it sounds, makes it sound really dire and it wasn't at all, but it was like a huge, was basically another house in our back garden that was... You'd go in there and just see all manner of things. I always remember, I don't know why I'm saying this now. Maybe I've never described it before. It was like the barn out of Chitty Chitty Bang Bang almost. was like any time day or night you'd hear banging in there with you trying to shake clay or... or doing something in there, the lights would be on and the garden would be pitched back and the light would be shining out the windows and you'd see your sort of silhouette. And I think that's when me and Luke started to develop a penchant for making you jump by throwing things at the window. But yeah, I never saw that workshop as anything but this sort of your space and this hub of like creativity. Even as I became older, I didn't necessarily... want to go in there as much and be around your creativity. was always your space. Teenage years, I was just an asshole. But it was your place and I love that. I've got fond memories of that. Yeah, yeah, no, it was good. And we kept guinea pigs in there. We kept guinea pigs in there right at the beginning didn't we? No the kiln wasn't in there yet then. When you say we kept guinea pigs, I feel like we might be making out like we farmed them or something, but we had pet guinea pigs pet guinea pigs that multiplied because we couldn't sex them properly. Yeah, that sounds strange as well. Yeah, but you put the girls in with the boys, don't you, instead of the girls in separately? on the guinea pig situation. bought mom a rabbit called Blossom. Blossom, in mom's estimation, was lonely. So we bought her a guinea pig friend because we read that was good. The guinea pig friend was then bullied and Blossom used to, excuse my French, beat the shit out of this guinea pig. And then we bought a girlfriend for Rex, the guinea pig. And that's when all hell broke loose. And we went from two guinea pigs, I think to 21 in the space of what, six months, I reckon. Anyway. We sold them to the pet shop and then I could buy my kit on. There we go. That is one of the biggest tangents we could have gotten off. I'm so I like it. Guinea pigs, lot of people would be fans of that. There is someone on my LinkedIn network actually that loves Guinea pigs, so maybe this episode will be right up their street. Anyway, yeah, the bank loan paid for the workshop, paid for the kiln, paid for basically the material. The paid for the workshop. The bank loan paid for all the... The hardware. The hardware, the benches, the sink and everything else that we put in it after the guinea pigs are gone. then we... I was there. I had my kiln. I had everything there. But I had no contracts. I had some materials. So how to get contacts? So that was the biggest challenge. I, um, I, I, was no computers then either. So I don't think there was them, was there? How old was I? 1995. I mean, there was. computers but not maybe not internet or not widely accessible internet my god we're making us both sound old now i know you were at risk now i'm dating myself like that Yeah, so I wrote on a typewriter. Wow. I've got murder she wrote vibes going on now. Angela Lansbury typing away. 40 or 50 letters all to various places where I thought would possibly like swimming pool companies, leisure centres. How did you know to target those though? You've come from a course that I guess hasn't told you about how to target potential corporate clients. So why did you make the assumption that swimming pool companies could be a target? I knew that I needed work, so I thought who would use this material? Because I am passionate, I'm still passionate about clay, obviously, because clay can be used in any application. I mean, they use it on space rockets, don't they? I didn't know that. Is that because the heat resistant property is like... Yeah, yeah. So anyway, so I sort of wrote these letters extolling the virtues of this fantastic material. And then out of the blue, I got a letter from Riverside Leisure Centre, who wanted me to go in there and with the idea of speaking about doing a mural for their swimming pool changing rooms that had just been, were just being refurbished. This isn't the last refurbishment that they did a couple of years ago. This is like... For anyone that knows Riverside Leisure Centre, you might care about that. For anyone that doesn't, this is a swimming pool in Chelmsford. So carry on. And the ice skate. Don't get me wrong, it's a big thing in this area, but I'm hoping people outside of Essex might listen to this. Maybe, never know. I mean, I'm speaking to my mum, so I don't know the reach I'm expecting. But it was a huge big thing for me. I mean, yeah, that's how long after the inception of Lisa Hawker. Three months, got That early? Wow, okay. And so I was very excited and very determined to get this contract. And happily, unfortunately, I met this lovely man who took me around exactly where everything was gonna go. And I had to come across as knowledgeable and obviously experienced. I wasn't telling him that I'd done this loads of times before. I just had to be knowledgeable in the materials that I was using. But I did not tell him until years later that that was my very first commission. And it was five meters long by one and a half meters high. So I remember all the details of it. And I rolled out, I mean, it was three months solid, hard work. night and day and I met the deadline met all the I did actually three designs which obviously used my painting skills to do the three designs Like boards that you did for that as well. I still got them. Yeah, Yeah, I have. Well, you know that. And they chose one and I was so excited but I had to try and sort of keep, suppose, I didn't want to sort of make anybody think this was the first time I'd done it and I, you know, come across as an airhead. Yeah, but I think that is the same for anyone that works themselves or even anyone that's in any sort of job where you're trying to win work, especially early on. I remember in recruitment, you you had it internally inside you that you tried to suppress that feeling of wanting to jump up in the air and go, yes, first place. Because you want to kind of convey this professionalism. Maybe I think sometimes people would like a little bit of I know. And another thing really, because I joined Business Link as well and I got some, I didn't say that right at the beginning, I joined one of their startup courses and I got a small amount of money per week to join that. Yeah, because I wanted to try and move it into something that was business oriented really, because people used to, they still do. think of artists as not really doing any work because they just assume that artists just do it because they love it. I guess it's like a fluffy skill set for a lot of people. Yeah, but I was trying to change people's minds on that and I would always dress in a suit when I was going for an interview, was really, know, artists weren't really doing that. And, and I, but I felt I had to be businesslike because I was very serious about what I was doing. think I remember some of your suits and also like some of the press releases in newspapers where you were sort of photographed in some of your work as well. You always look very sort of, yeah, just like you were going to work in an office, like you were hitting something up, but why not? And if that kind of put you in your own box, so to speak as well, you were trying to change that reputation that maybe aren't. Yeah, I was trying to do that. I probably wouldn't do that now, but, well, I definitely wouldn't do that now. But yeah, I felt that I had to give over this impression to people. Which is, I guess there's pros and cons to that, they? Or positives and negatives. in a way it's great that you're kind of forging your own way in that space, but I guess a lot of that was due to the external pressure that you were made to feel and putting a suit on, I guess is maybe a little bit of a sign that... kind of not a great outlook that a lot of people had. putting a suit, was it driven any, I'm going to say the patriarchy, but was it driven at all by that feeling that a lot of the people you're probably speaking to were men as well that were signing up on this stuff? and I wanted to sort of be taken seriously and come over on their terms, suppose. it's soft introduction to art because for some people it's a big thing to sort of commission something, especially in Especially if people don't necessarily value art as a profession and have any understanding of materials as well, it's quite difficult. And my first commission was, I mean, probably think, oh, 5,000 pounds. But 30 years ago, 5,000 pounds for a first commission, there wasn't any way I was going to mess it up, you know. Well I'd say for someone now, setting off in a professional career as an artist, getting a£5,000 commission is a significant amount of money as well. When you first start, any amount of money is a fairly significant It's probably a bit vulgar to talk about money, isn't it? I don't I mean I'm a recruiter I talk about money as in what people are looking for every single day So yeah, I don't think it's vulgar at all. I think give some context which I think is really important So so you start to make money and you start this progression at the same time still raising two kids and I think just to touch upon Grandad who you've mentioned a couple of times now as well a running theme for a lot of people have spoken to in the first however many number of episodes of Jobsworth so far, cite someone in their life that were a bit of a champion or an advocate or a mentor. but fortunately, hopefully they do because you need somebody to champion you. Yeah. And that can be financial support. And there's, mean, you helped me when I started out the business as well. and I couldn't have been, I couldn't be here now nearly four years on without that money that you gave me at the start, because however much you think you got your shit together when you first start out, there are unforeseen things, a pandemic that can obviously put you off your course slightly as well. But I definitely think someone. Yeah, if you're fortunate enough to have someone in your life that is backing you and championing you and believes in what you're doing, that journey is hell of a lot easier as well. Yeah, okay. So, I mean, there's a lot that's happened in between that. So the year that you got, wasn't Serendipity, was it? What was the Riverside piece called? Yes. I thought Serendipity, no it wasn't. Serendipity was the lady with the long hair that was in our garden for ages. No. No, was Sea Dance 2. Was it? Yes. So serendipity Yes, and then that's what I was going to just say. You can look these up on Google or actually mum's website which we'll put in the notes. come from Surrey down there, you might as well plug your website. No, however many years later, they actually contacted me about four years ago, four or five years ago, move the mural from the Riverside Changing Rooms to another position because people loved it so much and they wanted to keep it. So I think it is now in the creche. nice. Wow, yeah, that's really lovely. Which I'm really bowled over the fact that they they wanted to keep it because obviously my my and Selling pitch to everybody when I did this was you know, this will be a permanent piece of art There's a legacy there, isn't there? So Luke, your son, my brother, is an artist as well. How important, we talked about legacy when I was having the conversation with Luke as well, and one of his proudest things that he's created were selling Ben to the Parliamentary Art Commission, which is just incredible. How important is building this legacy for you? Did you think about legacy when you started out, or do you now, looking back at quite a... a really successful career, think about the legacy that you've left in various places around the world. We have. Yeah, well, I, it's nice to think that by doing something that you really love and being true to yourself, that you've actually inspired your children. And, and I think that's, that's the legacy really. And no matter what you two would have done, I'm sure you, would have been successful because you know, you've got that about you. Who knows I reckon there's a parallel universe somewhere where we're crackheads or something No, I mean go going back to my point I was making about everyone I've been speaking to has cited someone in their life You know you you and Luke were the biggest motivators for me to go it alone because you've always been a bit of a trendsetter in that way No one when I was growing up. No one's mom was working for themselves most of my friends at the time. No Most of my friends at the time were in two-parent families as well. That was a definite... All of my friends at school, 90 % of them, even if I could put a percentage on it, had their dad around or whatever that looked like. So I saw you, maybe I didn't register then when I was younger, but I saw you raising me and Luke, and then I saw you running your own business, and that was incredibly inspiring. And then as I got older, a couple of failed jobs, moved into recruitment, and I thought, that's what I needed to see. I needed your legacy and... I never thought it couldn't work because I'd seen what you'd done. And then Luke made the move and I was like, oh, he's younger than me. He can't be doing a better job and going work for himself. But it made that transition a hell of a lot easier. And it's about the role models that you have around you. And you and Luke have just been like the role models. You started it. I'd argue. Obviously, but yeah, no, that, like you are the people in my life that inspired me to do it and also you were the financial backer at the start as well which actually you and Luke are the main inspiration for me. All right, it's not point scoring. You don't have to rally that back. You're reciprocating the compliment. So with the time that's passed since your first commission, like your first proper commission after setting up, which was serendipity, you got your five grand for that piece of work. How many years have passed since? So 30 years on. So 28 years on. Yeah. 28 years on, I mean. Talk to us about maybe some of your proudest moments work-wise in that time. Not necessarily what you... It can be pieces that you've created, but maybe more so things that you've achieved beyond just the creation of a thing. Yeah, it's difficult really because I was just saying to you before we started, I'm going to have to do like a list of things because my, I mean, I get so wrapped up in each project. It's very difficult. It's a bit like your children. It's bit like trying to think which one is the best one. Which one's the best one? Are we really getting into that now? Wow. Ladies and gents, we're about, mum's about to say who her favourite son is. You know when you're always constantly saying about favourites, it's ridiculous. I'm missing the intro to the podcast. Second favourite son. think the listeners know. Anyway, what's your favorite piece of The Three Schools project that I did in Southend, I loved doing. That was a piece of work at St. Mary's School in Boston Avenue. Then there was a piece in Milton Avenue School. For anyone outside of Southend, there were three schools. St. Michael's in Lee and I had to do two or three metre murals, think three metre murals, two metre. In diameter, circular, circular mural genre. All at the same time and we had to involve all the schools, one was an independent school and the other two were state schools and we had to find a way of mixing all the schools like the classes together to do certain elements of it. It was very complicated and you had to design the murals to have some sort of common theme with them as well and I felt that when they were all finished I thought that that really you know I felt really really pleased with it I thought it all had a they were colorful they meant something to each of the schools as well and yeah and then obviously there's been loads of other things You've done some divisive stuff as well, haven't you? You don't shy away from bit of controversy in the form of the head of Margaret Thatcher. Which, you're not a die-hard Tory, you're not a die-hard Thatcherite, or whatever you'd call it, but you decided after she died to create a bronze bust of a... I know, I know. But I looked on, well to be fair, I was looking for a challenge to get my teeth into and I thought what was going on at the current time and Margaret Thatcher had just died and the vitriol on social media about her death, about her funeral, about how she was the most evil person in the world. And it was disgusting. it was 30,000 followers this Facebook page had. I just could not believe it. And I thought that they're obviously, I don't know, they just need to see this person as a woman. So that's what I set out to do. I fortunately knew somebody at the Echo who got me old photographs of Margaret Thatcher. in all various different poses. And then I access some video footage of her. And then I hold myself up in the workshop at the bottom of the garden, because I was still living in Rayleigh then, and spent four months going quietly mad, recreating her bust. without all the, she still had a lovely, well, all her hair. You know, I say lovely hair. You know what I mean? Like the hair set, but... You were trying to portray the humanity of this woman that had died. Not stripped back of the politics and the opinion around maybe what she did because politics will always evoke those feelings in so many people. We're seeing it now and whatever. It brings up so many conversations with me and other people and you know that's good really. You can have a dialogue about it. can argue that's what art's all about can't you as well? And I mean, I really was pleased with the outcome and I had it cast in bronze. it was, well, obviously people liked it because the Grantham Museum decided that they would take it as part of their central display for the year anniversary of her death. So, and then it got onto the BBC national news. stuff. And then I was subsequently commissioned to make a copy of it for some fashion. So that was a thatch right? Yeah. So that was something in States, wasn't it? So when I say the legacy that you've made is gone further afield than the UK, that's an example of it. Yes, and then of course there were the creative projects but weren't actually visually creative as such when I got involved in other things like doing creative projects in communities. Yeah, so this seems to be a running theme with a lot of the things that you see as some of biggest achievements. The school project and the... it was around nutrition and lifestyle, wasn't it? think you did a piece as well. The president. Yeah, you've done a lot of work in partnership with the council as well over the years. health initiatives. Yeah, so yeah, I do remember that and that wasn't always there wasn't a big connect to art there but it seems like you get a lot of satisfaction from doing things that affect community. Yeah. And I guess in corporate sense you call it corporate social responsibility. know, having an impact beyond what you do for a job in community and is that something that's still important to you? Yeah. Yeah. really, it is important. think corporations should be responsible for what impact they're making on communities. Because in some of the work I do around employee value proposition at the moment, what attracts people to go and work for a business, corporate social responsibility and how business highlights the impact they're making outside of the day-to-day job that they're doing is really important to people. It's a huge amount of satisfaction and worth that people find in that. in a way, you doing those projects that didn't always sort of tap in specifically to your artistic talent, it was more kind of your... I guess project management skills that you were using in that time as well, wasn't it? And everything in between. Just going back to the schools project and you talked about the collaboration with people as well. I think it's interesting because I want people to talk away from this with some direct advice about if they're considering going self-employed. What was it like to go from this team at BT or teams like that and then to be working in quite an insular way? You're siloed, you're holed up for months, you're referenced with Maggie. working on your own with only your kids throwing tennis balls at a workshop window to keep you company. What was that like mentally for you? Did you find that hard? Yes, I think you have to be a certain personality to do stuff like that because I can, I seem to lose track of time like that so I'm not somebody who has to have company constantly so I think that's... Did you develop that skill or was that an innate thing? No meaning. It's an innate ability. It's the only child thing, isn't it? But I do get, I mean there are points where you think I've just got to get with some humans. So collaboration is an important thing for you as well, yeah. Because I thought it was interesting. I remember for every time that you spent doing work in the workshop, which was like in my mind the chitty-chitty bang-bang scene where Dick Van Dyke closes the door and you don't see him for days while he's working on the car. There were times where you were working with people like Julia or you were working with people like Fran or Jackie on all these collaborative projects and seeing you do that. Yes, and of course this the three schools project that I talked about that involved my lovely friend Fran who's no longer with us and Julia and Jackie and that was fantastic to have to have a team behind you as well. that was really Because being self-employed doesn't mean that you have to work alone. can still have a team of people around you. You just work in a slightly different way. But collaborators, messes, yeah, all these things. You can still have a support network around you as well. Okay. What is the one piece of advice you would give someone who's on the fence about being self-employed and try, I think I count you and Luke as well as some of the A small percentage of very fortunate people that had a quite clear path of what they wanted to do and have created something they love to do in the form of art into a money-making endeavor. You've supported your lifestyle and been successful, harnessing a talent that you've got. So try and transcend that and think about anyone that could be thinking, so I'm a self-employed recruiter. I don't necessarily love it. It's not a passion of mine. I don't think that's surprise to anyone that might be listening to it. to this as well but, someone's on the fence about going self-employed, what is the biggest bit of advice you can give them? Well, I was going to say, try and be honest with yourself and about your own qualities and about if you feel that you're the kind of person, if it's quite a solitary thing that you're doing, you've got to build in those meetings with people. You've got to know yourself, really, and you've got to try and put an infrastructure around you. that actually supports what you're trying to do. And also get some champions as well who actually believe in you. try and talk to them. It's just belief, I suppose. If you really think you've got a chance of doing it, then I think you should just go for it. If you try it and it doesn't work, you just go back to... Well, it's it. Yeah. mean, I think for lot of people, maybe they'll hear that and think, well, that's quite a glib comment to make that if it doesn't work, you can go back. But when you think about exiting traditional employment, if you do it in the right way, and that's it, to go back to your point of having some thought around it, be honest with yourself. What are your strengths? What are your weaknesses? No, but I meant that if the final push comes, you know, and you think, what if it doesn't work? What if it doesn't work? I mean, you've got to give it all you've got. You've got to give it 110%. Did you just drop the 110 % cliche? I did. did. I'm sorry. I'm going to have a buzzer I think. I just hit with things like that. I like it though. But you're right, you need to commit. You do need to commit. it's not easy. I can't remember if I said this before or whether it is the episode where you and Luke were both in here and I said it. you tell me off-set? No, no, was about to say, you know, think about regret and think about ask yourself if you don't do it, you know, how much will you regret it? And if you do do it, what's the better, what's the better regret to have? I'd rather regret it for doing it and getting it right. what I remember when I had my office in the house and I had all those quotes Oh yeah, I do. That was the front room, it? Yeah. Min looked turfed out of her bedroom. After he went upstairs. I had photos and quotes and they're all around me. It's a bit cliche now but... I think a lot of people still do it. Now it's just a mood board online or something maybe. Yeah, but I think you've just got to be positive, haven't you, in life? Yeah, I agree. Okay, mum, thank you so much for that. I don't know if I should, I'm not going to call you Lisa because you are my mum. Yeah. So, closing tradition on this podcast is to be asked a question. You usually ask the question. So, as someone that's here, I thought it might be strange to get you to ask it. So, we've got a guest. Yeah, we've a guest question asker. Yeah, I don't know anything. Right, okay. So, this week's question. He smiled at his son. He wanted to ask that question. was talking to him this morning about that. So Finlay asks, what's your... Nana, he says, what's your favorite thing to make? I love making really big pots. Yeah, no, more sculptural pieces, standalone sculptural pieces that you can get really lost in because I find it quite meditative to work with clay. that really, it sort of helps you lose yourself, I suppose. And the meditation pots that I made some years ago. ones that you put your head in and... Yeah, I do remember that. has to go one step further. But yeah, I love making big things. Big statement pieces that you can get a surf form blade on and just spend hours and hours carving into them and know that they're going to be there forever. That's amazing, isn't it? Yeah. Well, I'll pass that on to Finlay. Maybe he'll even listen to this episode on one day. have no idea. He was initially reluctant to ask that question. Really? Initially. But then I said he might be famous. And then he jumped straight on. Okay Mum, that was really lovely. Thank you so much for making the effort to come down again as well. That's okay. Yeah. Bye Mum. Love you. Bye, love you too. Thanks for listening to Jobsworth. If you enjoyed this episode, please feel free to like and subscribe. You can stay connected by following me on LinkedIn for more insights on the world of work, behind the scenes content, and updates on upcoming episodes. We're already thinking about guests for season two, so if there is a particular topic you'd like us to discuss, then please send in your suggestions to hello at jobsworth.com.

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