JobsWorth - John Hawker

This week we flip the script on the traditional JobsWorth format.

It’s my turn to be on the receiving end of a barrage of questions and there’s only one person I’d trust with the job. My little brother Luke Adam Hawker.

This conversation was super special. As well as talking about our careers, what it takes to start a business and how we juggle work and fatherhood, we also explore the importance of creativity (regardless of what you do for a living), my struggles with mental health, my discomfort with what I do for a living and how I’m slowly overcoming it (13 years in) and the pros and cons of stereotypes. 

Luke and I also go to war (kinda) on why I’m so against the word ‘passion’ when it comes to work. 

We laugh, I cry, our Mum walks in half way through unannounced. It's a riot. 

A HUGE thank you to Luke for putting so much effort into coming up with the questions as well as for reaching out to some special guests and getting them involved too. 

Please enjoy this conversation with...errr...me 🤷

The JobsWorth website is here www.jobs-worth.com

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Contact the show on hello@jobs-worth.com

Chapters

• 0:00 Intro
• 3:03 The Journey of Starting a Business During a Pandemic
• 5:57 Reflections on Childhood Aspirations and Career Paths
• 8:55 The Role of Family and Influences in Career Choices
• 12:08 Creative Pursuits and the Challenge of Follow-Through
• 14:45 The Importance of Validation and Self-Doubt
• 17:56 Role Models and Their Impact on Personal Growth
• 20:54 Lessons from Early Work Experiences
• 23:52 The Significance of Taking Risks and Overcoming Fear
• 26:59 The Influence of Stereotypes in the Workplace
• 31:20 The Stigma of Recruitment
• 34:45 Impact of Recruitment on Lives
• 35:59 Personal Stories of Transformation
• 38:44 Artistic Expressions and Family Influence
• 44:26 The Weight of Depression
• 50:49 Navigating Mental Health and Career
• 57:26 The Complexity of Passion
• 1:03:28 Work-Life Balance in a Digital Age
• 1:09:09 Nostalgic Movie Moments
• 1:13:26 Parental Anxiety and Career Guidance
• 1:15:10 The Pressure of Career Choices
• 1:19:12 Reflections on Education and Career Paths
• 1:21:25 Creative Influences in Recruitment
• 1:24:28 The Impact of AI on Recruitment
• 1:26:17 Life Advice for the Next Generation
• 1:28:06 Building Rapport and Authenticity
• 1:33:00 The Purpose Behind the Podcast

Transcript

0:00

I moved your mic slightly just because I know Tom. Hi Tom. I know Tom will be annoyed. Why do you does is Thomas Thomas you ever call him Thomas or is he Only if he misbehaves. you you Hello and welcome to the very first YouTube version. I don't know if that's the right way to describe it, but it's the first episode of Jobsworth that is being shared on YouTube. And to mark it, I decided to do something a little bit special. A few people have asked me to share my story on the podcast. When I say a few, my mom, mainly family members, and one of my sons. So there's not, there's not many, but I thought it would be nice to flip the script, turn the tables, whatever weird cliche you want to use and have someone ask me some questions so you can learn a little bit more about what led me to starting the podcast in the first place. So for this episode and this episode only, my brother, Luke Adam Hawker will be interviewing me. This was an emotional roller coaster. for many reasons, as you'll come to learn if you're watching or listening to this one. Luke, I didn't know he was going to put quite as much effort into this as he ended up doing. My brother's got this great ability to say yes to things and then just fly by the seat of his pants when it comes to it, but he really tried and that is number one reason why it's quite emotional. One of the reasons as well is that my mum walked in halfway through recording, so you may hear her. as part of this episode that was not planned. But this was my opportunity to share a bit more about my story in the hope that you can understand why I'm doing the podcast in the first place and also why I set up my business, a bit about how I balance parenting, mental health, just trying to be generally a good human being when all of the stresses of the world are kind of leaning on you. weighing you down too. thank you to my brother, Luke, for doing this. And I hope you enjoy it. Let me know what you think. You're actually seeing us have these conversations for the first time and you'll be seeing us a hell of a lot more if you continue watching on YouTube. Please enjoy this conversation with me. That's it. Yeah? Is that it? There you go. That was a great... You can use that at the end as well. you Welcome to the episode. Okay. This week's guest is business founder, recruitment consultant, creative writer, poet, and podcast host, and my big brother, John Hawker. Starting a business at the beginning of a pandemic and subsequent economic turn down when people's careers were on hold in a field based entirely on career progression is no mean feat. To then use his creative thinking to not only survive, but thrive in that moment. Just goes to show dedication and tenacity involved. Feels like this feels a little bit like a best man's speech. you're here. Yeah. hmm. It's nice though to hear. I didn't know you felt this way. I just thought I've got to pretend to be nice. So I'm happy to send tables for this episode so people can learn a little bit more about the voice behind the podcast. My brother, role model and best friend, again, John Hawker. that I've written this so it's not going to have the same perfection as you doing it. you Hello John. Luke, welcome to Jobsworth. I'm going to interject because I've asked you to do this. So all of the nice things you're saying. Okay, cool. Sorry. So I'm excited to be hosting, I genuinely am. A jobs worth fanatic, I've listened to every episode religiously, partly because I'm your brother, but also I think you are really good at podcasts, only podcasts. So we get straight into it. So why am I hosting? So we had a conversation and I suggest, you said you asked me to do this, but it was kind of like a conversation where I thought it'd be great to turn tables and people can learn a bit more about you because you're always the one asking the questions. So, so let's just get started with questions aimed at you. I can't wait for this. We should explain as well that we're recording from your studio today, so anyone watching it can see Luke's beautiful studio, but we've also got Luke's dog Robin in. So if you can hear the slurping sounds at any point, that's neither me nor Luke. So we spent a lot of time together. The vast majority of all our waking years together and more actually due to the required bunk beds right up to our teen years. but I'm going to learn from all of the episodes I've listened to and, I'm not going to start by asking you to describe yourself or anything like that. So I'm just going to ask you simple question. What did you want to be when you grew up? Grow up. Wait, what did you want to be when you grew up? you want to be when you grow up? Do you know what? I struggle with this sometimes. It's what did you want to be when you grew up? We might need to start this again. I think, well, look, I've asked this question to enough people and I should have given it more thought on the way up here because I should have known that you were going to ask it. The real answer is I'm still trying to work it out. I had no aspirations as a young child of being anything when I was older. Not that can remember. Try and remember, feel a lot of it is you not remembering. giving myself enough time to really think about it. think a lot of is probably the goals that I had when I was younger, or like the aim that I had was just go to school and get good grades and that was it. I didn't really have aspirations. I asked the question because I'm like a magpie. I try and cherry pick everyone else's answers, but I don't actually have a clear memory of what I to out. I, so I kind of later on, I talked about this, you actually, this is a quote from you. I was leading the way in terms of academic smarts. I definitely didn't say leading away. I know I said something like You counted it. But nonetheless, you said that. And then I have a question there. So we'll come back to it. I will say that was academically better than you. I didn't even bring that up. Yeah, totally. So I've kind of highlighted it as you had a natural ability at academia. Words, right? Words, but also like you were competent with other subjects. wasn't great at maths or anything like that. I was passable, words were my thing. then later on I've asked the question, you know, said, do you think that being great across the board was in a way limiting to giving you direction? Jack of all trades, master of none type thing. Yeah. In a way, in a way, like you're going through school, weaknesses are guiding as much as strengths. And because you were across the board, literally, as you said, leading the way. leading the way academically. I was okay at sport. I was okay at the creative stuff. I was decent at art and then I was good with words, I guess. English was the thing that I really enjoyed doing. I do have something that sticks out in my mind as a conversation that I had with our stepdad, Harry, about what I wanted to be when I was older. He got me an opportunity, a potential opportunity at Reuters. So journalism was one thing that I thought of how to harness my writing and passion for... Passion? I just said passion. I will come to this. passion. Okay, passion for English. I guess being curious about things, I've become a lot less curious even though I host a podcast where I'm asking questions all the time. I just find myself a lot less curious about things now. At a time, journalism felt like this really interesting path to explore. But again, I just don't think I had a big... I'd never had a dream when I was younger that I wanted to be something. I think a lot of people. question isn't it to start a podcast with really? He's not swearing. Thank you. I think that it's very open. I think a lot of people will be able to relate to that. I think a lot of people will be like, well, I didn't have this shiny thing. Or they'll have a much stronger childhood memory where they're like, yeah, I remember wanting to be an astronaut or something. Whereas you'll, think, especially working in the realm of jobs, a little bit more realistic about what did I want to be? So you're thinking, what did I want to be? And so a writer comes to mind because that was your outright strength. You entered like competitions and you got into like a book at some point, haven't done enough research to know what that book is. published at the age of seven or eight. But in a children's compilation of South East Essex, it wasn't a big thing. It was called The Wind and the World, poem. can't remember the... Yeah, because Mum made it feel big. Mum was such a champion of everything that we did. So it felt like a big thing then. But reading back, if I found the book, it's probably something that's paper clipped together. you're to make it out like you're pulling the book out. That'd be hilarious. Yeah. Okay, so journalism, journalist, maybe, it's like, you're not too sure. That's fine. That's fine. So instead of asking what did you want to be, like what did you enjoy doing in those early years? I'm trying to get a path to where you are now. where the question comes from. That's why I asked the question. I enjoyed writing. I love poetry from a really young age. I'm usually very self-pfft, that's Robin. Please everyone know that that's Robin. I am very self-deprecating, but I will say that I think I have a talent for poetry. I can find, and I love, rhyming poetry. I don't know much of the terminology and a lot of the correct words I should be using when I describe the poetry I write, but I can write poems that rhyme. I do that, I think, quite well. I enjoyed it. was like I could see something happening in my brain when I wrote rhyming couplets that just clicked. That felt nice. Writing I'd love to have said I was a great creative writer, but I never had the follow through to finish a story. So I'd have these great ideas. And then I'd spend, even in English class, you'd write a story and the beginning of the story, the first third of it would be great and compelling. And then the last part would just be rushed and hurried and I wouldn't have the follow through to make it good. So I have an observation having been there for a lot of your journey. And that's what's quite unique about this episode, I guess, is that you had, you have this natural ability, this talent and this obsession for the initial idea, but then there's like a missing link of patience to then like see that through, which I think a lot of people, especially now with like this new kind of awareness of ADHD and all that kind of thing. where people will move, flitter across tasks and ideas. And I just wonder if you feel like there's an aspect of your personality that has kind of made your, made new ideas really easy, but seeing them through a little bit more challenging. I have a lot of ideas and maybe I don't give myself enough credit for the ones that I have followed through with. Starting up a business in the first place, I did that. I had the idea and then five years on the business is still going. But I tend to put it more in line with the creative thing. I think I'm a frustrated creative person that never went to pursue a career in, let's say, an out and out creative field. doing that, so many people that have come on the podcast when I've said that said the podcast is creative and I have to agree. It does, there's definitely a creative outlet and a creative aspect to it. But I think maybe my lack of follow through was always more around creative endeavors than anything else. And I think it's cause I'm also very much looking for validation from other people. Whereas I think what I particularly admire about you is this is my thought from an outsider, is that you can have an idea and do it for you. It's very hard to sway you or maybe say something that's going to knock your confidence to not carry on down the path that you've started on. Whereas me, someone just has to raise an eyebrow and I will be like, you don't think that's a good idea. Straight away, there's some self-doubt there. That is something I'm still trying to work through at the age of 38. I definitely am thrown if I don't have validation from other people, those outside sources. In starting a story, maybe I'd go to start doing something and then get mum to read it because she's the first person that I'd go to with absolutely anything. I'd go, mum, can you check this? Even just a really helpful note. Do you know what, John? Maybe you could do this. For me, that would be, oh, you don't think that's good enough. And then I'd stop. Which isn't a great trait, but- Again, I think mum's encouragement has always been there. that would have been the thing. You even hinted on it earlier where you're like, well, mum thinks everything's amazing. Which can also, to a point, sometimes you can be like, well, of course she's going to say that because it's amazing. So maybe that wasn't enough. Maybe you needed that second voice. Anyway, so validation. I think you're talking about me. as somebody that doesn't maybe need validation or enjoy it, which is... I think everyone, if they're honest, loves to receive validation for their efforts. It's just not the primary, primary focus. Yeah. I think, can I just touch upon, because I know mum's going to listen to this episode. And I think it's been interesting through the years of therapy that I've had now and speaking to someone about how, like mum was amazing. Mum still to this day, I've said it on the podcast as well, mum always said, you could be anything you want to be. And I still believe if I turn around to mum and said, going to be an astronaut just because you referenced it earlier, she'd be like, yeah, John, like genuinely go and do it. She'd yeah be getting links like old 10 year old links to like Sending you everything about G-Force testing facilities that you could go and sit in and try this stuff. It's an amazing thing. Exactly, this is the podcast where I say, I'm going to down recruitment tools and go and be an astronaut. I think the other side to that is that the reality is that as you get older and you realise that maybe all of these things that that maybe in your head you had in front of you this kind of smorgasbord of opportunity aren't there or that you haven't got the drive, that can also be potentially a negative thing. As a parent now, I've got two young kids, but I'm the same as mum. I want them to believe they can do absolutely anything. Yeah, I think there's a lot of discussion around that. Mainly, you know why I know there's a lot of discussion because I listened to your podcast, but this idea of... absolute kind of, you can be absolutely anything, isn't maybe as supportive as trying to narrow down something they specifically enjoy and specifically love. And be like, okay, well how would you, how would you do that? And actually look at it a bit more realistically. But I think it's a bit of both. I don't, I don't know the, we're both parents, but yeah, we've still got a lot to learn in terms of the right thing to do. It's the balance. think if most people that, if we could get in a time machine and go back to when mum was telling us we could be all of these weird and wonderful things, she genuinely believed it. And I think that's amazing. And it's filled us with the confidence to go and work for ourselves. I think that's been a really foundational moment in our lives. But do I think I will be telling my kids the same stuff? It's really hard not to. I you will. think I will. I think delusion is only delusion if it doesn't work. It's kind of healthy to... In retrospect, I can look back and say, well, I didn't go off and do all these things that were maybe highlighted to me. Pretty good thing. Some of them are pretty I wouldn't, I don't like, the thought of going to space is terrifying. So the astronaut thing never would have worked. Yeah I'm claustrophobic so that wouldn't work for me either. Yep. so I want to, now we're kind of on the kind of hinting at role models, right? So really simple question, probably frustratingly so, but who are your main role models in terms of that? I guess leaving school, actually from day one, like who would be your like key role models? And it's not, you don't have to treat this as like a shout out because everyone, everyone you love knows that you love them. It's impossible not to say mum. Can you imagine that? Being a single parent and raising us two, I just remember mum being out to work from day dot, being looked after by granddad and mum coming in smelling of perfume from where she'd been at these call centres. is going somewhere. No, it's just a really lovely memory. This nostalgic memory that I have of mum coming to pick us up from granddad's and just being like, hi boys. I can still feel the cold off her jacket as she'd hug us and then take us home. She'd have been working, I think she did double glazing sales at one point and these... It's an ongoing joke isn't it? The mum's done loads of jobs. Very short periods of time. that's what she needed to do. This is a woman that wanted to go out and if anyone's listened to mum's episode, they'll already know exactly what she did. But as a single parent to do all of that, was amazing. And always knowing that a route to work for yourself was out there and achievable and in the nicest way if mum can do it. That's a joke. You've got to limit the banter directed at which he knows is joking and just in case people aren't picking up on that. Of course, it is banter. So, Mami's definitely won and continues to be to this day. Her work ethic and what she can do and the way she pushes herself is admirable. She's incredible. I don't tell her that enough, genuinely, just to counteract the banter. But no, she's amazing. You at a later point too, just because you're sat opposite me, genuinely when you went and started your own thing, I've said I've credited this you before that it was really inspiring and made me feel like, This is a Hawker thing. Why aren't we all doing this? The fact that you've gone out on your own made me feel like, can't I do that? It was really inspiring to see you do it. Okay, this is so funny because you were the first one to go self-sufficient. Yeah. It's all about perspective, isn't it? Like you saying, you in, like, are you, you know, I inspired you, but actually you work for yourself as a personal trainer. did, yeah. I don't think I ever really took that seriously because I know what was going through my head. was so young, like 19 years old. When I was at uni, you were self-employed, meeting clients at like 6am earlier, getting all the kit. Like you under, again, this is like, again, through the podcast, kind of talk about this a bit later, I think. Just downplay. Why I wanted to do it, because it can, I can highlight actually you're, you're fairly inspiring too. I struggle seeing that. On the whole it's because I know what I was doing and the mindset I was in when I was running that personal training, air quotes, business. Because I'd qualified, that was straight out of college. And I remember coming out of college with A levels, college? I said college. Coming out college with A levels that could have got me into university and I didn't want to do anything. I had no direction. Again, could have gone and done English at university, but I didn't know how that was going to equate to a job coming out of it. I still vividly remember Harry. This is completely paraphrased, but Harry said something along the lines of, you like going to the gym, why don't you become a personal trainer? I said, yeah, okay, that sounds like it could work. Probably at that age, I was in my late teens, had the feeling that that would be a kind of sexy cool job to do and I could work in gyms where yeah, I did, Harry was right. I liked exercising and training and if I could make money doing that, then great. And this was before it became such a commonplace job. So yeah, I remember going up to Totten Court Road to do my nine months training or whatever it was and then got a job placement at Fitness First in South End. was my first ever gig doing that. It's not there anymore. What followed was just, I think I was doing it for six or seven years before I got into recruitment and I was just making enough money. I was still living at home, so was making enough money to go out and get pissed at the weekends. Often turn up to boot camps and client sessions hung over. So this is, when I think about the mindset now, I just wasn't, it was a job. I was self-employed. It wasn't a business per se. Yeah. I think you have to look at the parallels. Like people, this is when people, I mean, 19, 20, your appearance matters to you, especially if you're in that industry. It's kind of, everyone's just kind of finding their feet, right? So I was at uni, pretty much same time, right? When you personal training. Yeah. I'm not very good at timelines. because we're 18 months apart. yeah, as I was getting into training in gyms and then decided, think at 21 to do it myself and go out there and I remember buying a Ford Focus and getting it all signed written and doing that. You were at university and I think this was around the time that you had moved. You did your year in placement, didn't you, in London? So you had your flat there, I remember. 2010, something like that, 29 to 20. Still doing it then, So it's actually a bit on role models. And I think obviously we were lucky to then have Big Harry. You call him Big H. He used to him H. Yeah. So Harry, Harry, stepdad. Yeah. I call him H. And the reason I bring Harry up is because we're talking about your career, your progression, you you went and tried personal training. When we were younger together, we would do summer jobs, working in the yard, in a scaffolding yard. Yep. Again, Harry, do you want to take over a little bit of kind about that. So, Harry has been a scaffolder since probably he was 13 years old, working on building sites and scaffolding and just an incredible... He's so well known and incredible at it. He got us into doing these summer jobs in scaffolding yards, which taught us a lot about work ethic. It also taught us that don't be next to a big refuse collection site in the summer. remember the smell of that old scaffold? Do drive in? If anyone's ever walked past a rubbish lorry in the summer, that smell. Imagine working in that for seven, eight, nine, ten hours a day, just oiling fittings. the good thing is, he could get out and do what he was doing on the scaffolds, building these kind of really actually... When I look back at it, That was a creative endeavor too, what he used to do. But does that answer your question? I think that's it. Yeah, just think, again, think scaffolding, you then went back to it. You were doing it for quite some time. I mean, in the grand scheme of things, wasn't that long, but it was a chapter. It's such a, it's such a, it's such a world apart. So many people will never experience that kind of construction industry, that environment, that intensity, so young. And I just find it interesting. I think about it a lot in terms of like the lessons it's kind of taught me. it's even though it's short, doesn't mean it's any less formative. It was completely formative. We did it for a few summers throughout our teens. Then after I got back from travelling, because that was my early midlife crisis, quit personal training, quit these boot camps that I was running at the time and decided to go off travelling. came back after six months thinking I'd find myself, whatever that means, and just found that everything was the same and I was the same person. I just had a lot less money and a lot higher credit card bills. Do mind just sharing just really short anecdote about the bungee jump, please? Just as short as you can. Thank you. The short version of this is, took me the best part of two hours to actually jump off the edge. I went up there, tried to jump, completely bottled it. shit myself. Not literally, but just bottled it completely. Everyone was saying, come on mate, you've really got to start going. At one point there was a coach load of Japanese tourists counting down from 10 on the observation platform. They got to one and I still didn't jump. I got asked to move back. There was two of the coach party of the Japanese Tourists went before me and they were 10 year old little girls. They went off the edge straight away. In the end it was a bearded Welsh guy called Barry that came up to me and said, you're embarrassing yourself now. He strapped himself to me and then just launched me off the edge with him. I remember just hanging upside down at the end face to face with Barry with his hot breath in my face going, how did that feel? It was awful. Is this the same story? Yeah, definitely the same story. Yeah. So thanks for that. I enjoy it and I hope other people might've enjoyed it. So I think this is like a real interesting story actually. When you think about aspirations to achieve and be brave, but I think, do you think some of us occasionally all need a Barry in our careers, in our lives? a great analogy you've just made. Yeah, I think we do. I think there's always, based on the conversations I've had, I can't say always, it's too much of a generalisation. But I think most of the people I've spoken to have always had a Barry that has given them that final push off the edge to make the leap. God, this is really cliche, isn't it now? But make the leap or make that decision or really just do the final If you're 99 % of the way there in your decision making process, you need a barrier just to give you a nudge in the back to jump in. I think we all need a Barry occasionally, at least once or twice in our lives. Definitely. How unhealthy are stereotypes in the workplace? How unhealthy are stereotypes? No, I don't think it's a bad question. I just think there are so many, there are so many stereotypes in the workplace and actually some of them act as... bit of guidance maybe to avoid and work around. My next question quickly moving on. Terrible answer. No, I'm joking. Do you like recruitment consultants? No. Why? I still am incredibly uncomfortable with the fact that I work in recruitment for a living because of the stereotypes and the stigma surrounding people that work in it. I didn't say stereotypes are bad thing. I think they are there for a reason and a lot of stereotypes are born from evidence compiled over years and years and years of particular behaviours or ways of working and recruitment is quite rightly so. hard with that brush. Like many professions, I think. think if you said, and this is not me throwing shade on these professions, but if you said state agents, recruiters, double glazing salesmen, car salesmen, most of the salesy type jobs where there's a feeling that you are being sold to or hoodwinked or channeled in a certain direction, maybe against your will at certain points. Do you think we need them? Is your question specifically, do we need recruiters? No, no, I guess my angle was that, you know, which hasn't worked out. was fine. Talking about stereotypes and how they're generally viewed as negative. I think rightly so. Then asking you if you like recruitment consultants, you are one. And you saying, no, you don't like them. And I think you've been, you've been kind of like, I mean, can I just, not personally, you don't personally dislike them. No. But I think this is, this is what happens. So when we talk negatively about our own careers, our own job, our own worth, your podcast is called Jobsworth and you are saying you do not like what, ultimately what you do. And you hint at that in terms of a recruitment consultant. I know what you do. I know the impact you have in people's lives and it's frustrating that you can't have pride in what you're doing. Or if you do, It's like you still wince at, I'm a recruitment. I still, it comes back down, I think it's a defence mechanism. I think it's part of me being self-deprecating and that again, links to probably being a bit of a defence mechanism. think, look, I do have a lot of pride in what I do and what I've built and the way I do recruitment. It's probably, I came into recruitment with this romanticised view that I was going to help people and make... introduce people to these life-changing opportunities. There are a small handful of people that you do make a huge amount of difference to their lives in the space I operate in. There are, I'd say more, that you're just another person that's introducing them to another job that's going to make them another pile of money. Now, I pride myself on the brand I've built. I pride myself on the way I conduct myself. by extension Dean who I've hired, he conducts himself in a market that is full of cowboy type people. They are still very much present out there. yeah, a lot of it's self-deprecation. just still am uncomfortable. It's just me being honest. I'm still uncomfortable that I'm a recruiter and not something else. Maybe if I'm pointing fingers, that's mum's fault for saying I could be a national. I should've just been an astronaut, to be fair. No, I think it's just interesting, I think this stigma is around us, it's out of our control. If that didn't exist, and there was more respect around recruitment consultancy, you wouldn't carry that burden. No, I don't think I would. And if there was a recruiter sat opposite me now, provided they were a nice, decent person, I would not let them talk about themselves in that way either. The fact is there's good and bad in all professions, all of them, even the ones that are like almost sainted. Yep. you So going on from that, we're talking about recruitment consultancy impacts on people's lives. So I thought there'd be a bit of friction about this and I wanted to give you an example, a case study if you like, where I guess it is an example of recruitment consultancy but also example of you doing what you do impacting other people. So I wanted to touch on the story of mum's friend, Annie. So Annie is mom's friend and she has a son called Alex. Um, and I think it was season one where you spoke to John Stevenson, um, from. The force's transition group, yeah. Yes. In an episode, which was really interesting. was all about people in the military and having a very specialist set of skills. And then when they leave the military, kind of like not really fitting in, being like an awkward shape jigsaw puzzle. That's good way putting it. If you have that spot, they're the ones, no one else has it. So Annie listened to this podcast, it was really inspiring and she had a son, still has a son, Alex. He was in the military for nine years in the RAF. He did really well there. He became a commissioned officer. So really, you know, great career in the military, but found he was missing time with his young growing family. So wanted a career change, left the military and found himself as a car salesman for BMW on less money. And yeah, just feeling that, you know, feeling out of place. And I'm paraphrasing a little bit because it's more about the story. Um, and his mom, insisted that he listened to the podcast and, know, he had other, other priorities, right? So. She said, I'm not talking to you until you go and listen to it. So listen to the podcast, gets in contact with, with John Stevenson, takes the advice directly from the podcast, implies it to his CV, CVs, and he goes for, goes for free job interviews, gets each one, each offer. Really? I was never aware of that. Now you talk more about Annie and Alex. I do remember mum telling me this story. Now, he's still in that job, and enjoying that job. And, well, I won't read it out on here, but he has actually kind of, I've asked him to kind of give his feedback for the review. And he's got a lot of fondness for you. Also John. But he's really lovely. Yeah. didn't know he had three or three job offers. It's really cool. Yeah. So you're often describing the rest of your family as artistic. And I'm glad actually that you have mentioned your poetry and you mentioned that you were quite competent art at school. So me and mum, we're professional artists, of course. So, I'm it in at all, which automatically leads to the assumption that you are not. So generally when other people are at your guest and I get that you don't, you're not there to be sent stage. But I think because we are on this episode, I want to highlight your artistic ability. And I remember you were even, even when comes to drawing, just like you, you were saying you inspired me to go, like self-employed and work for myself. Wrong. You were the first to do it. Drawing, you were amazing. Amazing at drawing, like cartoons were your thing, right? But accurate and beautiful depictions, which I remember you drawing over your bedroom wall when we eventually made it out of our bunk beds and we had our own room, which we struggled with, I think at first. You started drawing all over the walls and it was like Lilo and Stitch and like Disney and- I think, God, what was it? was, I can't remember. Elmo was on there. Tigger was on there. Cause these are just like, but sounds weird out of context. clarify, our bedroom before was inch to inch filled with the jungle book. Just for anyone, we will have to put pictures on when we promote this episode. Mum did this Jungle Book mural and it was incredible. Me and Luke had bunk beds when we were younger. In line with our bunk beds, I had Baloo. I had the scene at the Jungle Book where Baloo had Mowgli on his tummy and they were floating down the river. You had there was a bit of a mishmash with some characters. You love Dumbo. So you had the branch of this tree, like a bow of a tree, with Dumbo curled up and it had the crows? So yeah, was inspired a little bit by, I'd been in this room that was just wall to wall with characters we loved and I just wanted to start putting something on the wall. It was that. And then I tried to be a bit more edgy and do Is it Miko from Spirited Away? Do remember that? That was the thing that took up the most space. I don't think her name is Miko. I'm not sure. have to fact check that. yeah, that was something I did. So yeah, so drawing, you were very, you were really good at it. Like really, really good. and again, we touched on like writing, your writing ability, poetry. And I think I, your poetry is just something that you carried on doing. And I think you didn't carry on drawing to the same degree. You draw for the boys and you do lovely kind of things to them like that. But your poetry kind of pushed further. And I, I, my plan was actually for me to read these, but I'm not. I'm make you read them. So I think two different sides of you, right, that think reflect in your words. I think the first one is with, about Hugo and your dog, yeah, your dog. And a very young, very young Finley, your first born Finn. Okay, so yeah, this poem, I had a lot of empathy for Hugo, our Australian Labradoodle when my... my eldest came along thinly because Hugo was our baby. You've experienced this with Robin as well, your dog. Then when your actual baby comes along, the pecking order changes somewhat. I empathised with Hugo. This is the baby by the dog. I have a fairly easy life, or had one, I should say. I would sleep for several hours and chase balls around all day. I'd get cuddles on the sofa, be bought toys that I could chew. Bark at postman, we up lamp posts, eat my weight in chicken too. At a bath time, which I hated, I had walkies which were great, I had free reign of the garden, endless treats piled on my plate. I had, isn't he so cute? St. Endless, what a clever boy he is. I would hold my head high at the vets, a master class in poise. Then a year ago it happened and into my happy place came my humans holding blankets. From that blanket stared a face, and the face was pink and wrinkly, big blue eyes, a button nose. Then two legs began to wriggle. saw feet and tiny toes. And I thought, well, this is quite nice, but I could have had some warning that we'd have a baby staying with us overnight until the morning. And my humans, oohed and aard, and I sat there quite uncertain if the oohs and aards were aimed at me or meant for this new person. Well, 12 months that baby's been here. From my house, it isn't moving. And it's definitely not me receiving aards or bloody owing. But a baby's here to stay and my easy life is done. no more 7 hour catnaps chasing balls out in the sun. It gets cuddles on the sofa while I'm stuck on hardwood floors. It gets toys and I can't chew them. Number 1 of numerous laws. I can't bark because I'll wake it, which I really don't feel is fair when it wakes me crying in the night or yanking on my hair. It gets bath time which it loves. It walkies in a pram. I've lost a minion of the garden, pooing when and where I can. And my treats that were so plentiful were lessening of late. whilst it spoons mush in its mouth from an overflowing plate. So I lay here in my dog bed, harking back to better times when the garden, treats and sofa were not shared and simply mine. And I think of how I manage when it's older and more able to drag me from my hiding place deep underneath the table. But for now I'll revel in the fact it's barely even crawling and how easily I outrun that big head that it's been hauling and I'll daydream of the time that I was young and fresh and new. and I'll plan on how I deal with it if there ever to. It's really hard. Like I read that and I get quite emotional because I don't, it's like I read that as someone else's work. That is lovely. Like it's horrible that you got me to do that on here, but it's really, yeah. It's thank you for that. I just think, you know, people need to know that side of you, I think, to really appreciate why you're doing what you do. It's a real insight. And I think, you know, it's hilarious that you wrote that before Bodhi came along. God. Because you do have to now. Two was never the plan, definitely at that stage of life with Finlay being 12 months old and yeah. Yes, yes. I think we were on the same page there. Alas, the second poem about a dog. What you say and how you act. Yeah, so this is the reason, obviously that shows humour and it shows like a lightness. I think this, I think just this is quite insightful. This made me cry when I first read it. And I think it just, if you're happy to go there, then I'd ask you to read. happy to go there. I know the poem you want me to read. This is a hard one. I find the former poem much easier to write than this stuff, because this stuff kind of, this, I don't know how to describe it. It leaves a mark when it's coming out of you, this one. That sounds weird. It leaves something. But anyway, right. So this is Black Dog and I can't, all I will try and stay composed. Black Dog. I woke one Sunday morning, stretched and raised my sleepy head. to find a big black drooling dog just sat there on my bed. He growled and snarled and barked at me and bared his yellow teeth. I pulled the covers overhead and slid back underneath. At work the following Tuesday and the dog appeared again. He walked into a meeting while I drummed a well chewed pen. He raised his head and from his mouth there came a mournful whine. I called him sick on Wednesday, promised Thursday I'd be fine. Went to the pub that Friday and I sat there with a drink. Gathered round with friends at tables, raised my glass and let it clink. I turned and sat right next to me. Hot breath against my neck, the dog. I stood up, smiled, made my excuses, then I left. I walked the long way home and felt him padding close behind. I stopped and turned to shout and his brown eyes locked onto mine. He stepped forward, not quite growling, but a whimper came instead, and I slowly raised my arm and placed my hand. Upon his head. That was several years ago and with me that dog stays on my lap during the bad and further off in the good days. It's really hard. Not a dog that likes his belly rubbed or chasing after balls. This black dog won't run beside me or come closer when I call. But he does require some training and a level of respect. He can chew and scratch and bite if his behavior is left unchecked. And I've learned that I need help if his obedience starts to lack. It takes more than you alone to get a black dog off your back. Yeah, it still leaves a mark that poem. I wrote that in a really dark time and it's cathartic. To think that I would write anything like that that would still make me emotional is weird. I mean, that's definition of kaffiratik, isn't it? The process of creation leads, you spoke about leaving a mark. Like that might not make sense. It makes complete sense. I mean, it can make sense to people that have like gone through challenging times, more sense if they've managed to turn that into anything like productivity or an artistic creation like this. And I guess the point, the point is, you know, to have the skill to write things down, of this nature is the power is it's in longevity, which is kind of why I wanted, I mean, you were holding back tears. I'm trying to stay composed because you've never read that to me. You've only sent that. I remember you sending that through to the family group and it was a kind of- No, it wasn't. You didn't share this widely for a while. And I think that's because it is such a personal thing. It wasn't so clear a distinction as a cry for help, but definitely a kind of like, this is where I'm at now. And actually this is at a point where the feeling as your brother, this was like both a very emotional, emotionally charged thing to read on my own. but also I was quite glad that you'd gone through it and you'd written it down and there was like some accountability for what you were going through there and then. And like a point that we could like, okay, we can go there more openly now. So think on the back of reading that, those two beautiful poems, I think very contrasting poems despite being about a dog, each of them. I guess what I want to do is kind of, if you're comfortable talking about how depression has, has impacted your life and I'd implore you to kind of just, I guess, just, I don't want to say be honest with us because it, I mean, just if you're happy to go there. Depression, yeah. think in hindsight, I've suffered from depression since I was in my early twenties. It's really hard because no one, until you go and see a professional to talk about some of the things you've experienced, you just know that you've had some times where it might have been some dark thoughts or some, for me, it came through what I guess therapists would call low mood. the point where I could not get out of bed and I would be happy just pulling a duvet over my head and laying there and eating. I used to write poetry at that time too in my early 20s about just eating packs of Maryland cookies and just still laying in bed, just not getting up to shower and all these things. At that time you just wonder, it because I'm lazy? In a speak, in a narrative, you just start beating yourself up. Which obviously for anyone that's depression, it doesn't help, but that's the hole that you're stuck in. It's cyclical in a lot of ways. I think what really triggered me was when I had Finlay. think that really opened up lot of wounds that I've carried maybe over the years of not having our dad around and not knowing what the hell I was doing as a parent. Yes, we had father figures, not at a time... I remember having granddad around when we were younger, but not having a dad showing us how to be, how to act, how to steer things. I think my reaction to becoming a dad was so at odds with how I thought I would do it, that it really exposed something a lot deeper. that was when I really, it was just very, it was very raw at that point. And I suffered and it forced me to go to therapy, which is the best decision I ever made in my life. Training your dog. Yeah, there you go, training the dog. Exactly. Another lovely analogy. Yeah, I think like, obviously we're really close. Yeah. and I think that there has definitely been times where I've been really worried about you. And I think the fair therapy, starting therapy was a changing point from when, you know, I felt like it was, it was going to get better. And that says your brother. And I think probably because it was mirroring. your change of thoughts around, okay, this is going to get better. Like a shift in direction. There was some hope around it. In a lot of ways I feel very fortunate because depression for me never led to me trying to take my own life, which is obviously the... We're looking at things as a spectrum that is the worst possible position for anyone to get to with this. Suicidal ideation was a thing, but fortunately not for long. That came at a time where I realised as well that I'd really need to go and see someone about this now. And I'm so lucky that I've got such a supportive family and a supportive partner. And a lot of the depression was coming from behaviours and activities that I was doing as well that just weren't helping me. It forced me therapy and the subsequent fallout of that just forced me to completely re-evaluate and re-prioritise what I was doing with my life and how I was doing it. I have to mention, because this is about careers and very loosely, the podcast, a lot of my depression at the time was linked to my previous job too. Being in a role and in a job that I was walking into every day after just having my son and being so miserable and knowing that something needed to change. That was a real factor in what was going on. Luke's double underlined something and I'm concerned about what it is. Well, I just think it's really interesting that it's like, we really talk about worth, right? Like feeling of self-worth and then how that impacts your mental health. Obviously the podcast is called Jobs Worth and it's about that feeling. It just, everything is just coming around full circle. I've never really put it in the context of that experience of depression, stemming from that situational career. you know, element, as well as many other things, but just, just how the conversation around depression is rarely rooted in situation. And it's often looked at or spoken about in isolation, like something that just occurs. And I think there are situations where it can, you know, there are situations, but for many, many people, and I think for many people that actually then it then goes on to be even more severe. it is a situational thing. So it's just interesting, I guess how that to me has just made that much clearer. And to the point where we're talking right now on the podcast, the jobs worth, talking about self-worth and how important that is. I think you're right. This is where therapy, and not that I need to, there are so many amazing voices that talk about advocating for therapy, but that's where therapists and professionals help. They look at root cause drivers rather than get stuck in the hole with you. Sometimes you need people to just hunker down with you and meet you where you're at. Having gone through depression, again, mum is incredible. incredible support mechanism. Mum sometimes wants to fix things very quickly. I'm sure anyone with depression, if you're lucky enough, you've got people in your life that want to do that for you, that care about you so much that they want to pull you out of the hole you're in at that moment in time. It's really important to have them in your life because when you're ready to go out, they will pull you out of that hole. Sometimes you also need someone to get in the shit with you and just hunker down and go, yeah, this is shit. So yeah, I'm lucky that I've got all types of people in my life and therapy has allowed me to acknowledge the value in all of that. But yeah, work is such a big part of what we do. Like how can it not be, how can it not impact your feeling of self-worth and your outlook and all of these things? yeah, had to, as well as kids exposing all these kind of things I had to deal with, it was also around that time. work and where I was at. I think, think that's good. think, yeah, let's, let's stick to that framework. Cause obviously, you know, think that's kind of what I wanted from that question in a way, because obviously depression as a whole, we've got maybe another podcast to really get into fatherhood. What all that? It stirs up in people. So let's not get too deep. you Okay. So another question. If anybody has listened to one of your podcasts, no, if anyone has listened to a few of your podcasts, you may have noticed that my brother, John, has a little bit of a witch hunt out for the word passion, despite being passionate about the concept behind it. It's full of irony. And whenever I listen, I chuckle because I'm like, Why are you so hung up on the word passion? I think this is the episode little passion word, like let's address that. Okay. Why? You want to go to war on this one? I mean, it's not going to be much of a battle because my stance has changed a lot on the word passion the more I've done the podcast. Season one, wanted to ban the word passion because I did and I still feel that a lot of people are being advised to follow their passion and turn it into a career or turn your passion into something you can make money from. I don't always think that that should be the case. I think you can be passionate about something and ring-fence that just to be passionate about it. You don't need to make money from it. You've said this to me before. I have this tendency, if anyone wants to do any digging, I have several Instagram accounts of things that I got passionate about and then tried to monetise. Which is the wrong thing to do because in straight away the passion gets stripped out of it. I love I I've talked about this before. I love gardening. Gardening is my therapy. It's my meditation. At a time when I was really thinking about ways to get out of recruitment, I started thinking, oh my God, I love gardening. love garden design. I love getting my hands in soil and doing this stuff. I started to try and think about ways I could monetize it. Straight away, there was a correlation with that mindset about how to monetize it going up. Then my passion for it started to go down. So I do believe that we shouldn't all be trying to monetize our passion. Let's put it that way. But. people being passionate about their careers I'm fine with now. I back down on that. So maybe in future episodes, we can expect less of a avoidance of the word. I so. Do you know what I've realised as well? Maybe there was bit of jealousy behind it. People saying they were passionate about something and I was sat there going, I want a bit of that. That wasn't why I was banning the word. It really was because I think I just read a lot around how it can actually force people or advise people to follow their passions. It's kind of a negative thing. It can force people to go down this route which strips passion out of the endeavours they're trying to pursue. But yeah, do you know what? Now I love hearing people say they're passionate about what they do. I love it because I sit here and go, my God, that's so good for you. That's so good that you are doing something you're passionate about. I love to hear that. And I think in a way you're, you're kind of, it doesn't seem like it, but it's a way of advocating for others that maybe didn't have a role model that were, that kind of backed them up when they did try and pursue a passion or pursue a career in that. you were thinking, that doesn't make them any less of a creative person and you know, everything that they are. There's a little bit of that and you're right, there are shortfalls and I think you're just expressing hesitance to kind of just blindly follow a passion. Like you think of people showing up on X Factor and basically they don't have the people around them that are there to be. Yeah, and on that, because there are also, again, if I think back to those times where I wanted to go forward for an idea and heard those voices and straight away back down, I think sometimes there's a benefit in shutting yourself off from that, even not having that around you, or just being able to blink yourself so completely. Because you imagine how many people have gone on to do incredible things because they didn't listen to people in their circle that might have said, do you think think you should be doing that? I'm not talking about people that go on X Factor, can't sing for shit and then go off and audition and potentially make a proud of themselves. I think, again, even in those people there is something to be admired. But yeah, I'm all for the word passion. Hear it here first. I've completely Don't overdo it. It's a bit annoying that word. Okay, good. I'm glad we addressed that because I'm always I know it's bug bit for you, so I'm glad if that was cathartic for you, that's important. Yeah. So let's talk about another popular pickup that I've heard from listening to broadcasts is this, and you're aware of that. think this is a work life balance. and how, so I wanted to be more specific. I don't want to just talk about that generically because it's, think ultimately the conclusion is that it's a constant swaying back and forth, right? And you just want that. but how do you think phones, smartphones impact maintaining that balance. They make it almost impossible because they are designed to attack, to hack your attention. All they want to do is get your attention. phones, my God, I can't even say this word, anthropomorphizing phones. what they, yeah, the people that design phones, design apps, they are there to ensure that you are on those devices or apps for as long as humanly possible. Yeah, I think they make that very hard. So I think it's even harder when the app in question, which is still, again, like you said, like designed to keep you on there for as long as possible, is work related. LinkedIn. I 10 is for me the one. That's the one. And I've noticed that, you you go through phases and I think you're very dependent on your phone. I you'd be first to admit that you get into this habitual kind of reaction. Yeah. Um, I guess putting you on a publicly out there, is that something you think that you're going to address in the near future? You once had a dumb phone. And you like really, you read a book and you were like, this is it? Why, what made you fall back away from that way of thinking? And do you think it's possible? Do you think it's possible for you and a lot of people who are... I mean, so I think it's more possible for me because people, I'm not relying on like responding to people quickly, generally. going jump in and answer the question. Do I think it's possible? It all depends on your priorities, doesn't it? I think it's possible if you prioritise it. Anything's possible. Most things are possible if you put your attention and your focus on doing that thing. If I could set boundaries for myself and stick to those, discipline is a big factor in making a success of that. So my answer is yes, it's possible. And will ye? I keep having this conversation in therapy as well. I need to be more bounded with usage of devices. Generally, where my time where I stop working and start working happens is really difficult. I'm sat here now, thinking about how long I've not looked at my phone for. You're right, there is a difference between what me and you do. I will have emails on the back of sticking my phone off of flight mode that should have been responded to. But there's the word, should have been responded to. Could have been responded to yet, but has the world ended for me not responding to an email in the hour and a half, two hours that we've been recording this podcast? Probably not. yeah, I feel like this is quite a personal attack. I want something recorded saying that you will be better with your phone. Yeah, great. All right, that's official. Accountability is important. I talk to lot of guests about work-life balance. Social media is a way to monetise things or market yourself. It's so hard to make those boundaries really defined. Me, yes, and a lot of people I speak to struggle with that. The book that you're referring to is what was called Lost Connections by Johann Hari, which was a game changer for me. It was one of Everything you mentioned from it, I was like this. Do know what? It wasn't. was another Johann Hari book that I cannot for the life of me remember. Lost Connections was my introduction to Johann Hari. Everyone needs to read, think. If you could, that'd be great. Yeah, well, good idea. You will, but fine. Yep. Okay, that's good. So people might not know that you're quite a film buff in terms of knowing actors, recognising, recalling names. And I think that does maybe help you do what you do. But we're not going to steer it too far back into the real world. I want to know if you just had three films. It's like a film based desert island. Yes. Films onto a desert island and means of playing. Blue ray, DVD, whatever you want to play on VHS old school. which would it be? Gladiator is my favourite film. List them all and then we'll look at why. This has really put me on the spot. So the answers I give are not going to be the most considered because I'm conscious in a podcast format. No one wants to see me. So gladiator. God, I'm going to judged so harshly. Just be completely, you are on this desert island. It's for you and you alone. Okay, Gladiator is there. I think I've mentioned that already. Spirited Away and the last one, Something About Mary, which is gonna be a big curve ball for you, isn't it? But that's what I'm gonna go for. Because I thought I need a comedy in there. You went for something about Mary. Interesting that one. Why Dino Eater? You've kind of said something about Mary. That's your favourite comedy, it seems. It was a comedy and I still remember. It's definitely not the best comedy I've ever seen, but I think it was a time of my life when you were just waking up to comedies like that. Being really funny and maybe transcending from that kind of immature mindset to then getting more of that adult humour in something too. I just remember that standing out at the time. The Frankenbean scene is still etched in my memory. Not in a weird way, but I just, could... Yeah, it's still one of best things I've seen. So that's there from a comedic thing. And Ben Stiller is just incredible. Obviously Cameron Diaz is. That's I've made it strange. Yeah, Gladiator was just, I remember seeing that vividly with one of my best friends, Neil, at the cinema at 15, 16 years old. I think we were younger than that because I had gone on a date. Me and Neil had gone on a double date. got the bus to Southend. So maybe I was 14 and got the bus to Southend. I realised that the date wasn't going very well. So me and Neil ran up into Southend High Street and hid in Burger King, watched the date, going to all the shops in Southend High Street trying to find us. I feel awful now saying this out loud. A minute. I was clocking that screen. You went on a date. Well, it was a kid. was like, we were 14 years old. it was like, yeah. But what a, like a date where you'd go, Oh, should we go into Southend? No, you missed where I said it was a double date. So me and Neil and it was- missed the word double. Yeah. There you go. I mean, what I'm trying to explain. There was two girls and two boys. This is why I'm not You're not great at this. No, you need to listen to the whole thing. So anyway, we went on this double date. I escaped the date, convinced Neil to run off. I remember vividly, we said, we'll go buy ice creams and go back. So we then hid in Burger King at the top of Southend High Street, waited for her because we then saw her running into all the shops looking for us. And then went to see Gladiator. And I still remember it as one of the best days. Best date? No, not dates. It was one of the best days. I didn't date Neil. Neil was very dateable, but I wouldn't have dated him. But it's a... it's still a date. Okay, yeah. If that's the definition, was one of the best dates I've ever had. Everything about it. The action, Russell Crowe, big specimen of a man. I mean, I'm going say it. A big specimen of a man in that film. It was aspirational to see someone like that. And now I've always said to you too, that there's something about him that just reminds me of the very small patch of memories I have of dad. He looks like him. don't know what it is. there's this, you know, we speak about this again, maybe if you have a podcast, but this like glorification, like if he were to be him, might feel that, you know? And yeah, he did have a slight resemblance. So there's that. And then what was the other one? Spirited Away. Just because the animation is beautiful, the story is amazing. It just gives you so, that I could just watch as a visual spectacle so many times and still be picking out tiny little details from it. That's a really good free, I think, to give a bit of an insight. Thanks. Something about Mary seems like a curve ball, but I think a comedy of that time, insert any of them around there. Me, myself and Irene. Jim Carrey. No more. Okay. No more. you So you talk about the love for your boys on the podcast and you hint at it, because I think you always want to talk a bit more about it in the episodes. you kind of show it, given it as a content, know, jobsworth is kind of about careers, right? Kind of. Not this episode so much. But you talk about an anxiety around their future. I think every parent has that, but because you're... in the industry of kind of finding people the career that they're happy in and the direction of things. Do you want to talk about that anxiety or like maybe... go somewhere else. As any parent would, you are mindful about it, just want to know that you want, maybe not even know, but you want as best chance as possible to ensure that you are doing the right things for your kids. I talk about anxiety when it comes to the boys on the podcast about the world that they are going to be working in, in the future. What's that going to look like? how, what jobs are even going to be out there? We're talking a lot about AI on the podcast at the moment and how that's going to impact the world of work. I just want them to be resilient human beings and have, I'd love them to have the choice to go and do anything they want. I really genuinely want that for them, but I also fear what work is going to look like in 10, 20 years time when they'll inevitably be looking to make that. decision about what they want to do with their lives. That's where the anxiety comes from, I think. Yeah. Giving the incorrect advice, right? As a parent, that's like, and it's just, no, there's so much uncertainty how, how you can't preempt it. so if you go back to a time, when careers are being discussed really, and that was kind of like year 10, maybe year 11, they start to be like, right, here's some boxes and you can tick them to ones you want to be, or you do a test and it goes somewhere. if you could go back, that point and give yourself some careers advice, what would it be? What a great question, Luke. What careers advice would it be? Don't jump into something too soon. You've got time. You've got time. think we are, again, this is going off my experience of education, which happened a long time ago now. I think we are signposted to pick what we want to do for the rest of our lives quite early on. I think you need to have experiences across a variety of different things before you can make that decision. Maybe I would just say, maybe just follow your passion and see if you can make something of it. I know, what a turnaround. Follow your passion because you've got time. If that doesn't come off, do something else. You do not have to know what you want to do for the rest of your life. 17, 18 years of age. That's a really good point because the rest of your life will come. Like you don't have to know. It just happens. There's so many great stories about people that founded businesses or went on to do these incredible things in their 50s or 60s or whatever it is. The fact that we have this societal pressure on us to know what we want to do from a really young age, I don't know. I think that's flawed and definitely didn't work for me. I ended up doing what I would then call my proper career from the age of 25. don't think I'll be doing this forever. I still have it in me to think I could go on and start another chapter. I work with an incredible nutritionist that used to be a children's publisher for a good chunk of time. That was her first career and she describes herself as being lucky enough to have had two careers in her life. She's incredible aspiring person. So yeah, think definitely don't get too hoodwinked on picking what you want to do now, John. When do you think at that age and the moment in your life do you think you'd have listened? I think to that advice, yeah, it's less daunting. Think of the alternative. You need to select exactly what you want to do right now. Do think you listen to that? Do think? I think I felt pressured to, at least I felt pressured to, whether I subsequently did or not, I felt pressure to know. And then I felt maybe a little bit of failure because I didn't. And I saw other people go off to go and then subsequently training things that they wanted to go and do. seemed so sure about, maybe they weren't, but outwardly facing they seemed so sure. think there's a lot of that hindsight makes us feel like, wow, they had it all planned out. Well, it's absolute nonsense. Do, would you, I guess really, would you advise when the time came, it's hard to preempt that, for Finlay and Bodhi to go to university? I don't know. We're talking what? 10, 12, 12 years, 12, 13 years. I don't know what university is going to look like by Do you wish you'd gone to university? God, that's a hard question to answer. dependent on two factors. I can only answer yes if I also had a very firm idea of what I wanted to do at university. Yes, if I'd managed to come to a conclusion about what I wanted to channel my efforts and energy into. If I still felt the way that I felt back at that age when I was making those choices, then no. Because it would have been time not, I don't think, invested in the right area. I know what I would have done at 18, 19 years old. I would have just got drunk all the time and and not focused on it. would have been a potential waste, potential waste, because I can't know that. I don't think you would have wasted that opportunity. If I hadn't been fully bought into what I could, I could have gone to university and done English literature as an example. I didn't know what that could go on to. And I think at that point I needed, I don't know what it was. There was a mindset shift in me that I needed to know what was going to make me money. And if I'd sat there and thought English literature I love and I love learning about it and I love writing, but how's this going to equate into a real career? That's probably the miss, that's probably the bit that was missing in a lot of the careers guidance that I had was, okay, you want to do English? All right, so let's think about the careers that could spin off from you going to do English literature. What could you be on the back of doing that? I just don't think that was present in the career guidance I got. Yeah. And I think we were, we were pretty quite aware of money growing up. Like we were, we were, we were like fortunate, right? You look at the whole scheme of things, we were fortunate that our granddad was able to like help us and you know, mum was really hardworking, amazing work ethic. but we were still quite practical in terms of like, well, we need a career where we make money. We knew the importance, right? Cause we saw it around us. saw really hard, we had like hard working role models around us that were working. So yeah. Yeah, like it was really tangible. So I think that with my selection, it was very much, I knew where it'd lead. I knew it would lead to a job right at the end of it was writing is so broad that it's almost like harder because it's less specific. I just wasn't having conversations about how it could actually equate to a job in the end. Right, for those of you, well actually we had technical difficulties, so our mum has arrived in the meantime. We thought we might have captured that, but we hadn't because it was fantastic as her entrances always are. So I think that we've achieved a goal of showing the person behind the voice of the podcast. Which is good. I'm glad, yeah. But now I would like to go and I have gone to some of your past guests and ask them to suggest some questions. Yeah. So Ed from Range of Motion Coaching. Shut up! Have you seriously done this? How would you know how to get in touch with Ed? Amazing thing called social media. And he put this question forward. So John, this is from him. So John, you're obviously a creative guy surrounded by creative influences within your immediate family. How do you bridge the gap between the corporate world of recruitment and adding a creative flair into industry? I don't know. don't think I'd give it any more thought than I need to have fun doing what I'm doing. The way I do that is by putting a bit of personality into it. If I had to try and market myself or the business in a really corporate way, I would really struggle. The podcast is one element of that, of injecting bit of creativity into it. The other is just trying to have fun. I judge everything. The barometer I use is Do I laugh at it? Can I laugh at myself while I'm doing it not take myself too seriously? That is really the way I'm creative with it. I don't know if there has to be a balance. think you can be both professional and inject a bit of creativity or a bit of humor into what you put out there. I'm not great at balancing the line a lot of the times, but I'll try. Yeah, I think that response reminds me of another guest you had on, who the Scrabble, he's like amazing at Scrabble. He was, he's very much about injecting humour into the brand, but I think really your answer is basically saying, well, it's me doing it. So it's going to be different and a bit more creative. Yeah. And I'm very lucky because the business, at least for the first five years of running it, it was just me. I don't have people that I need to please and get sign off on these ideas. It's really just me. So if I'm happy with it, I can put it out there. So that correct, I have all of the freedom in the world to just go and A, B test stuff. And some things work and resonate with the audience you're trying to reach and other things don't. But again, if even the things that don't, if they make me chuckle along the way, then I'm pretty happy with that. Yeah. And it's not really a sign that they don't, you know, that's not how it works. no, I guess it's not as, the feedback you're receiving isn't real time is it? People actually have to see that too. So yeah, I don't put too much stock in there. Thanks Ed. Another question. I'm going to ask you to be brief on this because I've got things to do. Do you see recruitment being heavily impacted by AI? If so, how do you plan to pivot and keep human interaction key in the recruitment process? You came up with that. Ed came up with that. Did he? Well done Ed. Ed, you get Ed on to host. Wow. Mason- Yes. AI will impact the recruitment industry. There will always be a place for human beings within it because I think a lot of what AI is being introduced for is more the back office type administrative tasks that no one wants to be doing. I think to make a judgement on whether someone is the right character fit, culture fit for a business has to be done by a human. I think AI will get to a point where it can read a CV and say, person is great for a job, but it won't be able to converse with someone and make sure that they have every chance of thriving in an environment that you're going to introduce them to. I think that's where humans will always be needed. So another past guest, thanks Ed, really appreciate that. Another past guest, Paul Sheernicker, old school friend. He was in your year, so more your friend, but I'm very fond of the man. And he's a creative writer, he's writer, published author. Another one that's kind of, I think followed his dreams. Such a good, shiny example. in a very realistic way, which is I think a lot of people have to pursue them if they don't have a lot of backing and, you know. Yeah. But yeah. So anyway, you listen to both Ed and Paul's episode. They're brilliant. But Paul has a question. Okay, cool. As a father, what is a piece of life advice that you have handed down or would hand down to your boys? does put me on the spot. Because they're so young, I want to be able to say something really profound. But a lot of the time, I think the best advice I've ever given is Finlay when he's finding the world too much and becoming overwhelmed. I just say to him, you've just got to take a breath. Just take a breath. Breathe in and out a few times. Collect yourself. Then see how you're left feeling about something. I can't be much more profound than that, but I actually think it's advice I still use to this day in moments where I want to rally against the world. I take a breath or maybe a night's sleep and then come back and look at a challenge. A lot of my pairing is just talking my kids down. By that I mean calming them down. Talking them down. You can't be anything you want to be. You want to be an astronaut? No. No, talking them down from these highly emotional states where they're getting worked up and just being like, right, let's get you back to a level where you can actually listen and. Yeah. I think that's good. Just simple, straightforward, applicable advice. Second question. I'm going to have to please, I'm going to, can I time you on this one? Cause I think this could go on and on. I'm going to give you three minutes to answer this question. Have you ever met Russell Crowe? Yes. What would you want me to say? Relish the opportunity. Okay. Hi guys, we had a couple of technical difficulties while recording this episode so if you do notice some changes to the sound beyond this point I can only apologise but I'm confident it won't ruin your listening experience too much. Enjoy. So another guest who's kindly kind of put a question forward is Katie Southgate, Golden Geese favourite episode, I would say hands down. Very moving, worth a listen. So anyway, Katie's got in touch said, when I think about you, John, and my experience of being questioned and interviewed, the first thing that comes to mind is your warmth. I wonder, have you always had a skill to make people feel comfortable? Have people always opened up and spoken to you about their experiences? Have you always been inquisitive to draw out that information out of them? I don't know if I've always been inquisitive to draw the information out. The podcast makes you inquisitive and you have to be curious. Yeah, you have to want to learn about the people that are sitting in front of you. I would like to think if I allow myself to not be self-deprecating for a moment, I'd like to think that one of the traits that I have is an ability to build rapport with people. that, yes, it lends itself well to the career that I've chosen where building relationships with people quickly, there's a huge benefit to doing. But yeah, I kind of like it about myself that people feel comfortable enough to share and have these deep conversations with me, regardless of whether I was doing the podcast or not. has it always been there? I don't know. Yeah, maybe. I think maybe it's like an innate ability to be able to do that. But yeah, I do have to hang up the kind of or put to one side. my self-deprecation for a second to really highlight that as a skill or something that I'm willing to say about myself. So as your brother I can agree that I think it's just a natural thing that you have this authenticity, vulnerability. I think you've always been fairly vulnerable, an emotional person. I think that just comes across which just makes people think, okay, know, let's not let their guard down but just like lets you in a little bit. I think building rapport, people just want to know that you're there not in a position of judgment either. And I think that so much of that happens when comes up with the conversations I have with people I'm helping find work to. They just want to know that you're not judging. That you're there to genuinely support them and empathize with them. think empathy is something that I think comes quite naturally to me. I think I'm an empath. And I think sometimes that has a negative side because you end up feeling a lot more that is helpful to kind of progress in life. Some that all go past a certain situation at points. But yeah, I don't know. That's a deep... And there was a lot of questions from... a of questions and I think in a way it was within a question. But really I think it's Katie's way of thanking you it seems for your warmth. you know, Katie runs charity Golden Geese. It was a very emotional episode. It had me in tears and I think she's acknowledging how she felt comfortable to do that. I think it's Gold Geese, charity and I think they... Not Golden Geese? You're so golden, yeah. Yeah, Katie, like many guests, comes in to the office where I record or we were recording previously and shared that she was nervous and that she had a tendency to ramble and that I might find it difficult to have this conversation with her but was everything... Everything she thought it might be didn't end up happening because yeah the rapport helps I think we've two people that got on and you can draw a conversation out so much more seamlessly when that happens when you can really make that connection with someone and but she she's so Eloquent and can articulate the mission that she's on and also to go into the depth of detail she did about her experience and that of her daughter and her family and everyone that was impacted by her own experience with cancer is just incredible so I'm honored that she she shared that as that's a really well loved episode. Yeah, two good communicators having a conversation. It's kind of gonna go well. Next guest I got in touch with is Kai, and I'll play it now. He's the busiest man that I know. The work ethic on this guy is crazy. he is. Yo John, it's Kai here. I've been meaning to ask you this question for some time. Why do you do what you do and why do you invest so much time and energy in sharing other people's stories? I'm looking forward to hearing back from you dude. I'm catching a bit. He's so smooth isn't he? So smooth, that was the best one take I've ever Yeah, always. Why do I do what I do? So the honest answer is that started the podcast because I thought of this as a brand exercise for my recruitment business and this was an opportunity to promote what I do for a living indirectly. basically get... people to know more about Global Tech Collective, which is my recruitment agency, via this podcast and having conversations that were loosely framed around careers and exploring people's experiences with jobs and work and life. Can I interrupt because as a listener, that's not how it comes across. That's good. Because I also think whilst that might have been the initial intention, I think the podcast would have been very short lived if that had remained the goal. what I think has transpired since is that I just love giving people a platform to be able to share their experience that I don't necessarily know if all of them would have had the opportunity to do so if Jobsworth didn't exist. We focus and shine a light on a lot of local businesses and entrepreneurs and creatives. and whether they would have necessarily got these chances to come and share their stories, all incredible stories, I don't know. So that's what keeps me going now, just to keep shining the spotlight on these incredible people and what they've done. You find it fun. I do find it fun. Yeah, this is my creative out there. Like sitting and having a conversation with someone for a period of time. Don't get me wrong, it's timing. You might have experienced this. You've sat here for a long time now, navigating this and kind of steering the conversation the way it's going. And it does drain you. It saps your energy. But what a great way to kind of spend some time. And if you're genuinely curious and care about the answers. It's a really lovely way to spend a couple of hours of your day. I enjoyed it to be honest. I've loved it. It's been good. But yeah, it's tiring conversations like obviously just When you're connecting and you generally want to listen to the answers, then that takes a lot of effort and energy. Definitely tuning out to the answers keeps you going. I just tune out generally. No, yeah. Right, okay, so we're coming to the end now. And in the tradition of the pot, has it gone off? Hi John, it's me. Okay, so question for you is, worst job you've ever had. Yeah, we're done Luke. I held it. What's worst job I've ever had? Do you know what? I've been fortunate enough not to have ever had a really bad job. I tell you what, one- Yeah, that was the worst one. I had a couple of paper rounds when I was younger, and I'm just going to admit this. I had two paper rounds, both of which I got fired from. One was because I used to go and pick up the papers in the morning before school, and I didn't really want to ride my bike all the way around the paper round, so I'd get to a certain bush and just shove the papers into a bush. And the day I got fired was the day that the guy that owned the newsagents followed me in his car, because obviously people had started to call around saying they've not received their newspapers. And then also I used to do that on a big weekly newspaper around that everyone got in a certain radius but I just didn't want to go that far. So I used to stick those papers in a bush as well and got fired for exactly the same reason. Someone fired me in the car to find out what had been happening with papers. It's a really revealing question, it turns out. not proud of it. Like, I need to be honest. no, definitely. think the moral of the story is that if you don't do a job that you're really passionate about you do it badly. Okay, technically you might deliver them somewhere. Okay, amazing. Right, just a couple more if you don't mind. No, that's fine. Lizzie here. You get some really interesting guests on your podcast. I know a while back you were looking for creatives to interview on your podcast. So my question to you is, how come as a creative interior designer have I not been invited on your podcast? So thank you. It's really interesting because Lizzie has been quite outspoken with the fact I think tongue in cheek that she wants to come on the podcast, but now it's happening too much. But I now think she really does want to come on the podcast. Lizzie's welcome on the podcast anytime. I don't think so. busy here. I think this is a question that you get asked quite a lot but I do think it's a really important one so my question to you is how can you your arms so big? Got carried away. away. All right, well that was fun. Let's round it off by saying, I mean I have already said that I'm extremely proud of you but we weren't recording. But to make it real, again, I'm really really proud of you brother and I hope that me throughout the podcast, throughout all like five hours that we've been recording It's been the longest one yet. Yeah. My picking you up on this self-deprecation, I think maybe going too far with it sometimes. I hope that you, and showing some case studies of real big impacts you've had on people and the affection your past guests have had for you. I hope it gives you more confidence going forward and I'm looking forward to the rest of the episodes. Shall we go and get some lunch? Let's get some lunch! Okay, I'm hungry. that was nice. How lovely.