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JobsWorth Express - Mark Green

• John Hawker

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In the first of our brand spanking new JobsWorth Express episodes I jump on a call with Mark Green, CEO and Founder of Change Rebellion. 

Mark has been working in the change and transformation space for almost two decades and in 2023 he decided to forgo the security (perceived security at least) of a permanent job to set up his very own business. 

We explore the events that led to him making that decision, the lessons he's learnt along the way, the reality of building something from scratch on your lonesome and the advice he'd share with anyone looking to do the same thing.

Please enjoy...Mark Green. 

Links

Website - https://changerebellion.com/

LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/mark-green-3368744/

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Contact the show on hello@jobs-worth.com

So I've got some questions. so if you see me looking down here at all, there's questions on my screen that I'll be asking. And I've got a little, there's a timer here so I can go with the flow of it. But again, you don't need to know any of that really, but I just want to be, I just want to be honest that that's what's going on in the background. Thank very much DJ John. DJ John on the decks. Okay. Hello and welcome to this week's episode of Jobsworth Express. We are speaking to Mark Green, who is the founder of Change Consultancy Change Rebellion. I've known Mark for a couple of years. We met on LinkedIn. He's one of the nicest guys you could hope to meet and we explore why he founded Change Rebellion in the first place and what keeps him running it every single day. We also talk about some of the mistakes he's made along the way, what it's like balancing fatherhood with running a business and everything in between. So... If you enjoyed this episode, please feel free to get involved in the comments and let us know and stay tuned for next week. So I describe what we do as being change and transformation specialists. So I try and avoid the word consultancy. Essentially it's a very similar principle, but the reason why I try and avoid that is because years of experience have taught me that people impacted by change have negative connotations with the word consultant and consultancy. So from my perspective, it's quite easy to rectify that. are specialists. We are specialists in change management. and we provide people and solutions to help organisations get through their journey, whatever that might look like. nice. And have you, I've been recruiting in the change space for a long time, so I know a lot about it. There'll be people listening to this that we kind of will touch upon what change management is, but we don't need to go into the weeds of it. But have you seen the importance of change management shift and evolve over the years in a positive way? Yes and no. I think there's still a big challenge with clients, with a lot of our clients. What I've noticed and where I see the positivity is going back just maybe two years ago before I started, there weren't many people that were individuals that were out there shouting about change management that you could go, I like what they're doing. I like their content. And it's becoming more of the norm that people are going, actually, we're a really good industry. This is what we do. This is how we add value. And there's much more of that happening now, which I think is a great thing. think the only challenge is, and I think it's a generational thing as well with some of the organizations we typically work with, that some people just still don't quite get it. It's like, what do you do? Where do you add value? Yeah. It's the ROI on it, think some people struggle to see. was historically been known as kind of the soft, fluffy stuff, the soft skills, the fluffiest on these programs. But it's nice. think in the time that I've been recruiting in the space, I've definitely seen people, first off, be bloody proud of the career they've taken on because it's so needed, especially in the kind of technology programs that I specialize in, Mark. And I know you do bits of change outside of strictly just tech enabled transformation. I've loved it. It's been brilliant for people like yourself and others to build personal brands based on change because it's all about people. That's why it resonates with me too. Why did you start Change Rebellion? What led you to start the rebellion? That's a deep question for whatever time of day it is that this is going to be viewed. Number of reasons, both personal and professional. I'll start with professional. So from a professional basis, I didn't see anything in the change space that I particularly liked, was interested in. I was kind of bored with it, found it mundane, uninteresting. I kind of fell out of love with what I do, which was my chosen field and has been for years, man and boy almost. And I just, yeah, it just didn't, for a better way to put it, float my boat. It was just like, why am I doing this? It's kind of repetitive and nobody's exciting about this yet we're people industry. Where's the appeal? It just didn't make sense. So I went off, drifted off into looking at things on LinkedIn like marketing, and I have no marketing background, but I started looking at things even in the project management world that... Interested me it pilled to me just visually there was that you know that chemical reaction it was stimulating So I said this is good This is the kind of thing I like to see the way people wrote the way people filmed It was just like why don't we do this? I don't get it. I just don't understand it But I wasn't confident enough and I still had that Imposter syndrome, so I didn't do anything about it and then on the personal side Yeah, you know like yourself young family lots going on my good ladies in a high profile job. We were quite separated because of our work patterns and it was really challenging. My mum was diagnosed as terminally ill during that period, which was unexpected. She'd been ill for a while, but we didn't know it was going to be terminal. And I think sometimes it takes a combination of things to give you that kick up the arse to go, right, I need to change all of this. I need to do something. And yeah, I probably wasn't in the best headspace. And I often say that I was also in the wrong job. And that's unfair to the people that I worked with because the people that I worked with are lovely people. They were great people. The industry as a whole in consulting hasn't changed a great deal for me. And I felt like I'd stepped back 20 years. The people were lovely though. Great boss, great managers, lovely people. So a combination of all these things. And it just was like, I need to do something. I need to be radically different. I need to be, because there wasn't that. you know, section of individuals like there is now. There was just maybe one or two that I actually followed and I thought, right, so I asked, we discussed it home and basically I was given kind of a time frame. If it works, it works in a say a year and if it doesn't, you need to go back and get a proper job. And yeah, you know, I'm very lucky because for a number of reasons, I got to launch, I got to launch before my mum passed away. So she saw it, even though she probably wouldn't understand what the hell I do, because most family members don't. So I got to do that. And yeah, the thing I'm most grateful for every day when I wake up is that what I do resonates and people get it. And actually, people jumped on it and it's just been great fun. And once again, I love what I do. I'm in love with it. So is your, is your, meaning that you put behind work and what work means to you changed over the years then Mark? Cause cause it seems again, family and having kids specifically is one of the biggest changes that can happen to really make you refocus and recalibrate and reprioritise as well. But has it changed over the years for you? What you Yeah, 100%. Yeah, yeah, So I think, you know, and again, some of that was, I had to go through learning curves, had get the experience, and you have to go through just as many bad experiences as you do good experiences. And then you become that person on the other side. And I think, yeah, and I'd like to say the imposter syndrome was a big thing as well. You know, it's like, do I know what I'm actually talking about? Even today sometimes I ask myself that. But you do, you get that imposter syndrome and... And yeah, we, you know, over the past four five years, crikey, we, I've been on some massive like life journeys that have just altered my thinking and the way I am. certainly having children was one of those. And yeah, I just, I'm unfortunately one of these and yeah, it's not a great quality. Sometimes if I'm stressed in the job and the daytime, I bring that home with me. I think a number of people do. And I don't want to be that person with my kids and with my better half. I don't want to be that person. So actually now, the bad days are less because I'm loving what I'm doing. And when I do have a bad day, I can usually kind of manage it. yeah, then career-wise itself, mean, CEO, I mean, it's a laugh, right? It is really. mean, it's just like, it's a title. It means nothing. What I always say, know, types of things don't mean anything because it's what we do. It's what we talk about, you know, not my title. That's just my ego. It's nice as well when you start your own business, you can kind of select whatever label you want to stick on yourself, can't you? But I think you're right. It's how you do what you do rather than the job title that you label yourself with and stamp on your name badge or LinkedIn, whatever. Yeah, exactly. a classic example. we've got people, associates working for Change Rebellion, and they all choose around job title. That's dangerous. Touch wood, it's going okay. But the reason I want them to do that is because I want them to highlight what their key skill is. What's their main thing? We've had like a transformation alchemist, an inquisitor. We've had various things. And it's because A, I don't like this whole principal senior consultant BS, that's not for me, and it will never be for us. And also because it kind of, I think it's a bit empowering. You it's like, you choose a title, go for it. How many places you go to work say that, right? It's like, yeah. I like that. think if I was working for someone else and I was given free rein, think God knows what I call myself. But I do like that. It is empowering and it does give people that sense of autonomy and that you're passing that responsibility onto them. That leads to good feeling, positive sentiment and hopefully the fact they're going to work harder for you too and really be brought in. Have you always been someone that's challenged the status quo mark? Yeah. There's no detail behind that. Yes. It's obviously varied in levels. When I launched Change Rebellion, it was always going to be more of an extreme. Because again, I come back to that point that when I launched Change Rebellion, it had to be radically different from anything else that was out there. And so Rebellion was absolutely fitting. But yeah, think throughout my career, I'm trying think how I would, I'd love to say the lovable rogue. I'm not sure, just a little bit me. You bring you to work, I certainly do. Energy high, enthusiasm, all that kind of stuff. I bring a lot of me. And if some of that me is me kind of rebelling against, you been known to rebel against governance every now and again, you know, asked to do his boring report every now and again. So yeah, I have, but I think I'm probably pushing it to its extreme at the moment. Well, that's a hard, look, you can't call yourself change rebellion and not have kind of a roguish traits about you. You're going out into the market and mixing things up and from your branding, you're definitely not afraid to call out some of the of antiquated ways that big consultancies work in. I, yeah, really it was a leading question because I already knew the answer, but I thought. Yeah, I yeah, I get a great deal of fun because they're so big, they don't care about me. know, there might be some of their teams that, you know, look at what I do or whatever or follow me. But in the grand scale of things, these big consultancies, I just poke the bear. They don't care about me. But I know that actually there's a lot of people like me that will resonate with what I'm saying and have shared experiences. It's a strange one. I had a conversation about this with someone that was a very small business and they, how did they term it? They were basically saying, I mean, you say they don't think about you, Mark, but I guarantee you're probably on their mind a lot more than they're on yours because the way you're doing thing exposes and it basically shines a light on the fact that it gets people thinking, oh, wait a minute, those practices are, you know, completely outdated. It shouldn't be like that. Maybe the way they're charging for these services does completely take the piss. All of these things. So you're shining a light on it. And I guarantee that actually more people are probably aware of you than you give yourself credit for. And that's a good thing. Yeah, it's a good thing. I hope so. I'd love to think that. Two of my posts come to mind. So when I was really going for it last year, and I was posting a lot, you can tell on LinkedIn who's been viewing your profile and all the rest of it. And you can look at groups of people and organisations. And I did do a post last year just purely for my own entertainment, because I thought, surely can't be real. And Deloitte were one of my biggest followers. So I think they're massive, global. Right? And I'm thinking, and the stats were, I was like, no way. So just purely for my own entertainment, and it's still there on my feed somewhere, I did a picture of me and a picture of the Deloitte logo, big love heart rounders and played some Motown music. And then my post was literally like a love letter. You know, like, I see you looking at me, it's so nice, I think about you too. And it was just a bit of fun. And then another one I did recently was, when I explained to some of the people that I used to work with in the consultant industry that are great friends and they're like, so you don't upsell, you're not going out to try and manipulate what you get in the work. And I was like, no, I don't do any of that stuff we used to do. This is based on me being honest, open and appealing and resonating and telling the truth. So yeah, but yeah, no, I'm shocking right now. It's a big thing to focus on though, isn't it? You've just said, the truth there. I think honesty, transparency, the human element is so important. And when you get into those big consulting organisations, they're kind of a faceless entity. So knowing that change rebellion is you, when you're promoting your business, it's you. You're in front of the camera, you're putting the messaging out there. I've seen the benefit of being front and centre when it comes to marketing and the way you have to work, because there's nowhere to hide. You can't up a load of other people trying to do that. You know what, I think you're the same as me. I think one of the things that I'm so pleased I'm able to do is I can be quite self-deprecating and I can laugh at myself. And you have to, because if you're putting yourself out there, you know, you are up for criticism. And I'm fine with that, you know, because I'm my harshest critic. You know, the lighting wasn't right, my face didn't look right, I've got a glare in my glasses. You know, all things that I go, oh, you idiot. I don't mind so other people can criticize me because I promise you it will never be as severe as how I criticize and I want to improve all the time. You'll have seen previously that I used to put a lot of memes on. Now I've moved to video and music more. I do a lot more. All the time, I'll be honest with you John, same I'm sure for you, a lot of time it amuses me. It makes me laugh. So if it makes me laugh, I'm hoping to God it will make other people laugh. And then now I'm also going to incorporate, you know, the green screen talking and monthly updates and things like that. So I constantly want to improve. And one of the massive mistakes I made last year, definitely a learning curve, was that, you know, I got carried away last year. I was in a position where I had all this, like, time to do and put into the business and make it something special. And my mind does work at like 10 million miles an hour. And I was thinking of all these wonderful things I could do. You know, I did filming that is on cutting room floor because I wasn't happy with it afterwards. Now, do I regret spending that money? No, because actually I learned an incredible amount. Good life lesson. You know, I wanted to do something with you last year. We didn't get the chance because life got in the way. Again, it's a lesson. Plan. Get these things, you know, appropriately scheduled. So some massive life lessons. constantly trying to raise my game all the time. I love it when people copy what I do. And it does happen now. Didn't used to happen, but sort of towards the end of the meme era into the video era, there's a lot more people doing something similar. I love that because that drives me to be better. Because if you're going to be loud on LinkedIn, I'm going to be louder. That's how I can view it. And I'm not competitive in terms of change rebellion, but just me personally. Like if somebody's going to go, oh, I'm going to do what Mark did because you've got lots of light, go, right, I'll go even better. And that's a driver for me. Yeah, understood. So content creation aside, and marketing in the business, which is a huge facet of what you have to do, especially as a smaller company going up against some huge giants of industry with massive budgets. let's park the marketing side. What's been the hardest part of actually starting off and then going out alone to build this? The hardest part, in all honesty, has just been learning probably what most businesses call the basics, which is learning how to do contracts, get agreements, all the admin that we have to do, all the preparation. I'm happy going into client sites to have conversations. I offer three days when I go in and give evaluations. I love talking, well, as we know, I love talking in general, but I love talking at events, all this sort of stuff. Even with the marketing part. I like all that. The hardest for me has been the, okay, what do need to think about as a business? I've always known where I want to be. I've always had my targets. That's not an issue. It's the getting to those targets. And a lot of that when you're a very young business is learning and just, know, some wins, some fails. a great point. Exactly the same lessons I've had to learn along the way and five years in, I'm still hitting these points where I go, how have I not had to do this yet? How have I got away with running this business for so long and not being tested or challenged to think I should have learned that? that's just part of it, isn't it? Especially when you don't have masses of money to be hiring these people. You've got to wear the hat and then carry on with it. I get that. Have you ever thought you've made a huge mistake at any point running Change Rebellion. No, no. There's been times, I'm just sorry mate, there has been times in between like work where we've had nothing coming in and that's an shit moment. know, because everybody's the same, right? We've all got bills to pay, families to provide for. So there's been that moment that happened crikey very early on. And then once I got through that, there's not a single day I wake up and regret it. Every day I wake up and I love it. That's I genuinely love what I do. I love the response I get and I know that we can help people. We are proud to be supported by friends of the show and previous guests, the local merchants. They stock some of finest ready-to-wear brands in the world and now offer a made-to-measure service that, speaking from personal experience, will leave you feeling like a proper celebrity. Sam and Ed are known for phenomenal customer service and they're now crafting tailor pieces so good you'll start inventing reasons to wear them. Book your appointment online or in-store and their beautifully designed space becomes your private dressing room. somewhere you can collaborate with the best in the business to create something for any occasion. Their knowledge of tailoring materials and how a suit should actually look and feel is second to none. First piece or something special, you'll be in expert hands. The customization options next level, cut, lining, lapels, buttons, button holes, vents, what even are vents? The whole experience first class. And for a limited time, Jobsworth listeners get 10 % off purchases over 200 pound in store or online with a code JW10, including made to measure. So if your wardrobe is due an upgrade, now's the time. Visit thelocalmerchants.co.uk for more information. T's and C's apply. Um, not, not with clients, um, with the business. Not, yeah. Client is, you know, clients have always been okay. Um, yeah. It's, it's one of these things, cause even when you're running your own business and you're delivering as well, cause you have to deliver, you have to keep that income coming in. Yeah. You've got your mind in two different places, which is, which is challenging, right? There's no, no, um, getting around that. It's difficult trying to do two jobs when you're starting off and you get going. Um, very, very challenging. Um, but. No, no regrets in terms of the business. Like I say, for me, it's the things that I learned last year. And they're not regrets, they're lessons. And I'm quite a positive person. So I go, right, you're an idiot then. You need not do that again and focus on that. And that's how I view it. I give myself good talking to. then, you know, and then... You're a better person than I am in that regard, Mark. I love speaking to people and I'm always inspired by people that can reframe certain things to not be hard on yourself. I'm sure there are elements where you go, as you just said, like, you idiot. The internal narrative parks up and then you have to of suppress Harsher than that jump. Yeah, far harsher. It's nice to know that you're not going to get everything right all the time. There has to be a way of making mistakes, learning from them and progressing on. What's one assumption that people make about being in your own boss that you think is completely and utterly wrong? Maybe something that you had in your head about starting your own business that in reality just hasn't panned out like that. crikey, that's, think, I'm going, ooh, because there's so many ways I could go with this. So the reality is, I don't think people quite understand how much people like you and I put into that, this is us, and presenting yourself, and you're really putting your heart into it. know, change rebellion is my third child. You know, I'm giving it everything I can because I want it to work for my other two children. And I'm my good lady. So, you know as a family it's It's that is like so I Don't it's blood sweat and tears. It really is. It really is blood sweat and tears You just want it so bad and you want it to be successful so bad and you believe in it I've never believed in anything like a ticket in a work perspective. Yeah, like I believe in change rebellion never never believe in anything because I And I only believe in that in a lot of ways. Thanks to all the people So other change professionals, other peers, other people I respect have gone, you're on the right, you're doing it, yeah. What you're saying is right. They're validating me and I'm going, I'm not, I don't have to have this imposter syndrome, I'm doing the right thing. So all those things come together and culminate to go, this is massively possible. I think the thing that, just touching, because first of all, you said about other people, what do you think other people get wrong? I think there's a lot of people out there and this might just be the way I position myself and market. that seem to think I'm doing a lot better than I actually am. I've been asked to open offices globally. I've been asked by people if they can come and work for me. I've been asked if I'd like to hire an offshore team. The amount of things I get asked on a regular is crazy. I'm sure you get the same sort of emails. It's why I did that stupid, I say stupid, it wasn't stupid, it was an idea last year around. franchise that was in the franchise because so many people are asking me can you open up in Australia? Can you open up in New Zealand? We resonate what you're saying but we need you over here to try and claim some of the market back from the big boys. And I was like I just can't I'm sorry. So yeah so I think assumptions you know towards me are that yeah I have some multi-faceted organization which I'm absolutely not. Yeah You've got to get, I think one of the assumptions that I've noticed and maybe when I was going in to set up on my own, the big motivation was family, big motivation was work-life balance, having autonomy and being able to something myself. And looking at work-life balance, I was naive to think that my work-life balance would be better than I had it previously. far worse in a lot of ways, although I can be more present at different parts of the day. So if you think about your stereotypical nine to five working day, I do not have a better work-life balance than I used to when I was working for someone else. But zoom out a bit and look over the course of a month or three months, six months, then I am more present with my kids than I ever could have hoped to be. But it is that blood, sweat and tears. It's a time you have to invest in growing something that you truly care about. Yeah. Some people that are sat there thinking, I'd like to be my own boss, maybe don't realise how many hats you've got to wear and how much time your brain is completely engaged elsewhere. Yeah, and also it's about connecting with people like you and I. So you and I have connected and I've absolutely loved it ever since. And it's not just for you boys, lucks. But I've spoken to other people that started in the change world and it's great because I can now give them some advice. Mentoring, you need to think about this. know, have probably two forms of mentoring. I have people who are sort of young coming through change management. want to understand what it's more about, what it involves, what's the detail, what gets some advice, et cetera. And then I've got other people who are more experienced starting businesses. And they're going, what did you have to think about? How did you approach this? So both of those, I absolutely love doing now. I like giving back. I think it's really important to give back. I just, over the past course of six, eight months, although it's very challenging for me because I'm heavily involved with one of our clients. I made time to have conversations with people in my space, in the Chainspace. It was wonderful, delightful. I think there was about half a dozen, maybe seven or eight, stuck a post on and it was just, and everyone I gave a write up, brilliant because, brilliant because, amazing because, follow this person because. And it was, it's just so lovely to do that. I really get pleasure from doing that. The community you build along the way, it? I think, again, that's something that I didn't see coming when I set up, which is how many people that would have been classified from the outside as competitors actually put their arm around you and go, if you need anything. They appreciate and empathise with how bloody hard it is setting up from scratch. I had people that historically I would have said they would not do me any favours if I ever asked them. proactively reaching out to say, I respect you doing it. Let me know if you need any help. And that's been lovely. That's been really nice. goes both ways though. So I you I can't thank you enough because you've been there for me late at night. We don't need to go into detail on this podcast. Probably need to provide some context, but no, let's just keep it rolling. That's fine. Just, you know, when I needed that little bit of advice or I wasn't sure about something, you've always been there and great to bounce things off and it's greatly appreciated. I think it also goes the other way. So one of the advice that I'm giving these new people that are coming into change, particularly the younger ones, is I'm going, right, get to know everybody. Get to know everybody in change management. Get to know the whole network, the different levels, the different capabilities, all that stuff, but keep your circle really small. and you will find your circle as you go along. And I think that's, it's probably true in life as well, I don't know, but we probably are like that as a family, you know, we keep our circle quite small. And I think what I've found is when I've become more well-known in the change space, don't like saying it like that, it just feels like an ego thing, but when people identify with me being a madman, it's great, it's lovely, but not all of those relationships are meant to be and they're gonna help you. on your journey. But then there will be some absolutely rock solid people that you know, anytime you can reach out and they'll be there. And that is, that's one of the most wonderful things about what I'm doing with Change Rebellion and my Change community. There are some fantastic people in the Change community, some truly lovely, you know, caring people. It's been a privilege to me. It's such a people-focused job, isn't it? That's why I love recruiting change people because it's very hard to be someone that doesn't care to work in change. You have to be empathetic. You have to be able to support other people and give part of yourself to the job. Otherwise, very quickly you get outed as maybe not the right fit for change. Okay, Mark, I've got question for you and this is a chance for you to give some advice. I think you've touched upon this in some of the answers you've given already, but if someone's thinking about going it alone, what's one thing they should know before they do it? So from a business perspective, I would absolutely recommend you reach out to like-minded folk or people in the same industry. So I think you and I connected because obviously I know you recruit change people, actually I liked your content. It was very similar to mine, the way we were. that is, so linking to those people, because those people, know, example A, can be there and support you and help you. The other thing is, yeah, find people in your community. So doesn't matter whether you're a change manager, project manager, whatever, find people that you go, I really like how they position what we do for a living and follow them, engage with them, talk to them, and you'll learn so much. And from somebody going into the contract world, really, you know, really tricky market at the moment, very challenging. I do get the sense that things are slightly picking up, but at snail's pace, if I'm honest. And I think, again, find people who do what you do. in with them, get to know them, talk to them, ask them for advice. I one of the things that I did back in the day, because I used to be contracting freelancing before that, was be a social butterfly. Go out and connect with as many people in recruitment as you can. Show yourself. Say I'm here. Say, this is what I want to do. This is who I am. And that's how I got almost all of my roles from LinkedIn. almost in my entire career. It's crazy to think that. know, apart from very early days, when I didn't really know what the hell I wanted to do, I got almost all my roles from LinkedIn. And so if you do, if you put the work in, you'll get it back out. If I could kind of summarise that, and this is a cliche, but you're not on Ireland. When you're starting, you are not out there on your own in the middle of the ocean with no one there to support you. And actually just having that little bit of confidence, because it does take confidence to reach out and say, I really admire what you've done. Would you ever be open to having a conversation and talking with someone or sharing some of the advice and support? And most people, I'm talking from personal experience, I'm happy to say, do you know what? Yeah, let's get on a call or I can chuck you some points in an email at the very least. You'd be amazed at how supportive the whole, well, the community is. especially LinkedIn has obviously meant that we've been introduced and I've made some great friends through LinkedIn. If you're operating in any space, I think you should be getting on LinkedIn and using it for that purpose. you soon. building relationships and you just don't know where it's going to go. Mark, thank you for that. We are going to end this Jobsworth Express episode with a game, which I thought you'd enjoy. It's going to be complete the sentence. So I'm going to give you the start of the sentence and you've got to end it. you up for this? These are all related to what you do for a living. You've got to complete the sentence, mate. Say it's on you. I haven't started any of these in a dodgy way. Okay, we're going to go. Question number one, success in transformation is all about? Brilliant. I'm just going to fire through these. Question number two, the biggest mistake businesses make when it comes to change is? caring about people. People is a common denominator, Question number three, if I could ban one corporate buzzword forever, it would be... synergy. Synergy. This is where we're going to fall out, Mark. I like synergy. To be honest, I probably used it but was the first thing that came to the mobile. That's right. No, you've got you've got a go at it question number four the most underrated skill in transformation is Empathy. I like that one. Okay. Question number five. I knew change rebellion was making an impact when... There's more than one answer to that. When it resonated. How was that communicated to you? How did you get that sense that it was starting to resonate? People reaching out, messages? Yeah, it was very much an overwhelming, like, warmth feeling because of the support I was getting from my own, from peers and people in my industry. It was just, yeah, I... It was so strange because you genuinely don't know until you kind of go for it how you're going to be received. And it could have quite easily gone the other way. And you'd never have seen Change Rebellion. And unfortunately... When I decided to be me and not what people expected of me, if that makes sense, it just landed, boom, and we were off. And like I say, we are now at a point where we are being recommended, which is just wonderful. Yeah. We've got more. Question number six. The moment I realised I didn't want a traditional career path was… So I've probably felt it for quite some time, but I needed, as we talked about at the beginning, things that happened in professional and private life to trigger that reaction from me. So it's probably been on the backbone of thinking, I could possibly do this better. I could certainly do it differently. And then, yeah, the other things came into play and that triggered it. So yeah, probably quite a while. Question number seven, the best job I ever had beside this one was… Certainly wasn't when I worked in a leather tannery. Crikey. Best job that I had. I mean, I've had some fantastic, like amazing contract roles that I've truly loved. You know, there's a couple that spring out to me. Thirst of Type, EPR, down in Cambridge with an amazing team from HP who were just lovely people. And we basically lived together for about two years. And it was just, it was incredible. They felt like a family, you know, and it was just, that is absolutely a highlight. And then another highlight would be, you know, just having a director that believes in you. I remember another contract in role where I kind of exited a management consultancy. I was kind of a little bit partially involved, kind of. And when they left, I was given the chance to build something and create something. and demonstrate my capabilities. So having somebody believe in you like that is very powerful. But yeah, different memories, good memories for different reasons, but lots of highlights over the years. Nice, good, okay. The worst piece of career advice I ever got was... Oh, yeah, no, I tell you what, can go back, I mean, we're going back to boyhood here. But yeah, I remember I worked as a very young boy, barely out of school, didn't like what I was doing, told the manager I didn't like what I was doing. And it wasn't advice, but well, he says, you know, if you don't sort yourself out, you're never going to match anything. It's quite derogatory. And I... Weirdly, I got on well with his mum who also works at the same place. And I went back years later and I never, I know, random story, right? I never met him again, but I met his mum and she said, what are you doing? And I said, I'm doing this, that and the other. she's like, wow, you're doing well for yourself. that's great. Yeah, that's brilliant. Okay, we've got two more. If I wasn't running Change Rebellion, I'd probably be. Very sad. I mean, very sad. You know, it's as simple as that, I would. I just wouldn't... If I wasn't running Change Rebellion, I would feel frustrated. Constantly. And that's how I felt over a lot of my latter career. Like, there was this burning desire to do more, to make more of it. And, you know, the way I share things, being radically different, Change Rebellion, that would never have come to the forefront. and I would always have regretted that. Even if I gave it a go and it failed, at least I'd have given it a go. So, yeah, I think I probably would have just been either, I used to quite like small boutique consultancy environments where you were like a family and friends kind of vibe. Felt like you were moving together towards something. And although you were bound by their constraints, know, which I'm not good with constraints, it... That would probably have been where I would have gone to. I would have thought, what maybe even marketing? Who knows, Well, was going to say, as I think I mentioned earlier, there's a frustrated marketer in there, Mark, that just needs to be unleashed. Last question, number 10. At the end of the day, work should be… enjoyable. I think if I put that as the end question for 100 people, I would hope that a very, very high majority of people would say that. It was toss up between enjoyable and fun because I do believe that you know we spend most of our lives at work you shouldn't be miserable have a laugh have a joke you know just just you can be professional and still have fun and I'm a firm believer that you need to bring that and yeah that's how you should be with people so but no I went with the old predictable enjoyable I like it. I spoke to Dave Harland, who I'm sure you follow on LinkedIn, an incredible copywriter. He was saying the same thing, just on your point, you can be professional and still have fun or self-deprecating or funny. It doesn't all have to be dry corporate communication all the time. I think enjoyable or fun will go with either one of those. I think he's a solid answer. And I think from the change space, I can't speak for everybody's industry, obviously, but from the change space, you know, I've proven that works. I've proven I can write something quite serious, occasionally, rarely, but I can also be lighthearted and poke fun at myself and others, do you know what mean? And that's why the engagement's gone up the way it has, because people go, yeah, why be serious all the time? I love that. I think that's advice anyone can take on regardless of what they do, whether it's people focused or not. Right, Mark, thank you so much for your time. I'm just going to give you an opportunity now to tell anyone that's listening, watching where we can find you. How can we find out more about you? How can we find out more about Change Rebellion? Where do we need to look? Certainly. obviously LinkedIn is the main port of call. I'm on there, Change Rebellion have a page on there. And then obviously the website changerebellion.com. You can find a list of all our services, what we offer. And hopefully you'll enjoy our very sexy website, if I say so myself. It's a very nice website. Thank you. All right, Mark. Well, thank you so much for your time, mate. I, for one, it's been an absolute joy getting to know you and I feel very lucky. have a lot of issues with LinkedIn as a platform, but it's connected me with some amazing people like yourself. And I know that you're to go from strength to strength as you continue doing the weird and wonderful things that you're doing. So thank you so much. Thank you John, a pleasure mate, and thank you as well for all your support. You're welcome. Cheers.

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John Hawker

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