JobsWorth - Gemma and Will Jones

On this weeks episode of JobsWorth I speak with Gemma and Will Jones, the husband and wife team behind Essex based bakery business Wilma's.

This conversation is, as its heart, a lesson in starting again. 

After the pair were forced to leave their previous careers behind it was time to go back to the drawing board. 

What followed was the creation of a brand that has become synonymous with all of your favourite sweet treats (think cupcakes, brownies, cookies...but not as you know them🍰)

We explore what it takes to pick yourself back up again when one door closes, and the tools you need to build yourself a new one and step through it. 

From baking in their kitchen at home and selling their products from a bright pink trailer (Cakey McCakeface) to opening 3 shops, employing 25 staff and becoming a go to destination for people all over the UK, we cover it all. 

Please enjoy...Gemma and Will Jones

Keywords

Wilmas, bakery, entrepreneurship, cookies, brownies, business journey, couple entrepreneurs, challenges, success, baking, business growth, entrepreneurship, couple dynamics, customer experience, scaling a business, community building, baking, small business, challenges, success, business growth, entrepreneurship, quality, expansion, food industry, advice, passion, discipline, team dynamics, future aspirations, jobsworth, podcast, career, worklife, storiesthatinspirechange.

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Chapters

• 0:00 Intro
• 3:04 From Performers to Entrepreneurs
• 6:05 The Journey from Cruise Ships to Bakery
• 8:59 The Birth of Wilmas: A New Beginning
• 11:56 Challenges and Triumphs in the Bakery Business
• 15:01 The Evolution of Cakey McCakeface
• 17:59 Building a Brand and Finding Success
• 28:02 From Horse Box to Bricks and Mortar
• 30:05 The Journey to Finding a Shop
• 32:32 Building the Dream: Renovations and Challenges
• 34:30 Hiring the First Employee: Risks and Responsibilities
• 36:32 Scaling the Business: From Two to Twenty-Five
• 41:11 Navigating Business Dynamics as a Couple
• 49:45 Creating a Community and Customer Experience
• 52:05 Reflections on Success and Future Aspirations
• 56:41 Navigating Growth and Future Aspirations
• 1:01:54 Quality Over Quantity: The Business Philosophy
• 1:03:12 Exploring New Avenues for Expansion
• 1:05:12 Advice for Aspiring Entrepreneurs
• 1:09:11 The Reality of Running a Food Business
• 1:09:42 Mr and Mrs Game
• 1:14:09 Balancing Indulgence and Discipline
• 1:14:34 Lisa's Question
• 1:18:35 Closing Thoughts and Reflections

Transcript

0:06

you Hello and welcome back to another episode of Jobsworth. I am back on the sofa again. I've just returned from recording next week's episode and I'm now recording the introduction for this week's episode. Because despite all my best intentions of being super well organized, it hasn't happened. Nevertheless, this week we are sitting down and speaking to Gemma and Will Jones, who are the husband and wife team. behind Wilmers. Now, if you are from this neck of the woods, this neck of the woods being Essex, you've probably heard of Wilmers. They are a brand that's synonymous with all the best things that you can eat provided you've got a sweet tooth. So we're talking about cookies, brownies, cupcakes, birthday cakes, wedding cakes. If you've got sugar in it and it makes your mouth water, these guys make it. That's not strictly true, but you know what I mean. These are all the things that I now need to limit my intake of because I've just reached that age. This is a really interesting conversation. General and Will have got, I think, an incredible work ethic. You'll come to learn what they used to do in a previous life. I'm not going to tell you, you're just going have to listen or watch the episode to learn that. But I think it's their work ethic. is a byproduct of the conditioning they probably went through, working incredibly hard for very long hours. And that's what they've been doing since 2016, which is when Wilmers was founded. They have built a bakery brand to three shops, 25 staff. And as you'll probably come to learn during the course of the episode, I don't think they've finished yet. They've got a hell of a lot further. to go and more aspirations and goals that they want to achieve. For me, I think it's a really lovely lesson in starting again as well. They both met in a former life, in a former career doing very similar jobs. And were, I guess for for want of a better word, were forced to leave that world behind and they started again. They found something that they could get passionate about. and they've built a brand that is so well loved in this area and no doubt it will be well loved further afield too. They say in the episode that people have traveled hundreds of miles to get their hands on a Wilmers. How amazing is that? They've created a brand that we now say a Wilmers instead of a cookie or a brownie. I'm getting hungry just talking about this. But anyway, enjoy the episode. If you've got feedback, please feel free to get involved in the comments and stay tuned for next week. And the podcast always starts and we're going to kick off with that opening question and it always starts the same way. And I'm not going to ask if you've ever listened to the podcast because that puts you on the spot. Well, that's really helpful then. So you'll know the opening question already. So the opening question is when you were younger, what did you want to be? when you grew up. So I'm going to start with you, Gemma, if that's okay. Yeah, of course. So I trained as an actor. Wow. That's my background. We're both performers. ruining that. I've spot the surprise. And my mum always tells me that as a kid, I always wanted apparently to be a singing dancing hairdresser. I'd be like, I'm awful with hair. But I Performing Arts was the career that I chose and acting, I did modelling, and that took me to a place of meeting Will in Australia. We worked on cruise ships at the time. So I never thought that I would be doing this. Yeah, this is quite a departure from where you you pictured yourself. eh But how can you remember the age you were when you first had that dream of? Oh, I wanted to perform from a really young age. So I was always in performing arts classes. Literally, that was always my dream. think we recently we found out uh I've... I have ADHD. So we think we're still waiting for the final diagnosis. But I think I was just basically an attention whore from such a young age. And I always just like making people laugh and just really perform. It does, but which obviously I'm not. Did you have any inspiration around you growing up that was kind of finding the flames for that or were your parents more in a position of, this is what Gemma wants to do, we'll support her in that passion that you had? So I came from, I come from a single parent family em and my mum, think she was just really go with the flow. She was like really chill. Oh yeah. And I think I was just quite bossy. So. oh was one path that you were going to go down. And that was it. Yeah. But the thing is like from such a young age, like, I think I was 13 when I got my first part-time job. Um, and mama always like took me to dance lessons, although I was never the best dancer. and, and singing lessons and acting classes. And that was, it was supported, but I think I was the one that there's an audition I found out about and I want to go. That's an amazing drive though. And I guess that's something that has developed even more as you've gone on to set up your own business too, to have that kind of innate drive that that's the direction I want to go in and I'm going to go and do it. think so. think, em well, like from having my first part-time job, I then didn't stop. And I then, when I was at college, I had four jobs. em And then I was modeling and acting as well. em And at uni, I had five jobs. em I'm just a bit of uh a juggler in regards to those sort of things. Cool. you've said, again, we'll go into a bit more detail about how you met, but bring us up to that point then, Will. When you were younger, what did you want to be when you grew up? So we met on cruise ships as Gemma said, so I want to be a captain. I'm joking, didn't... That come later in life. No, I want to be a dancer, which I subsequently went on to be. yeah, that started from... I know how old I was. I remember being really young. My sister... The weekends, my dad had to work, so being a child, I couldn't sit at home on my own. So I used have to go to my sister's dance practices. And I remember sitting there, arms folded, grumpy little kid like, Facebook Thunder, whatever. I remember one of the teachers, the dancer, was like, come and have a go. I was like, I'm doing that. I'm not doing that. It's for girls. In the end they managed to get me up. It was disco dancing. Really. And yeah, it was great. And then, yeah, I just remember dancing around this fall to Janet Jackson. It was great. Yeah, I loved it. My sister hated it. Like sister's like a tomboy. She would rather be in a field rolling around. You know, she went on to actually, the army. She it, I loved it. Put me in a field I'd stand there and cry. She'd be like, yeah, know, roll me in dirt. You've got those stereotypes, boys and girls and boys are going to opposite way round. But I say I was quite young, don't know, eight, nine, maybe even a bit younger. And then, yeah, it went on from there really. And then when we were maybe 11, 12, 10 or 11, we were lucky enough to go on a cruise. And I remember watching the shows and just thinking, wow, I want to do that one day. I then wasn't particularly bothered about the West End. I didn't want to go on to do things. I just wanted to travel and do cruise ships because I just had this goal. in my head from such a young age was like, just want to be on a cruise ship. It looks amazing. And so that's what I went and did. then eventually found this one. Yeah. So when did you meet? Do you remember the year? Put it on the spot now. go on with. Oh, man, stop. It was 12 years yesterday. 12 years ago yesterday. It was like, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. 12 years I was in uh Sydney, harbour, circular key. I was doing induction as joined as a dance, the dance group that joined and Gemma was the cruise director. So she was like, boss is boss is boss. I think that was right. So she was a few, few ranked higher than a little on me. But she come in and introduced herself and I was just like, hello. Aw babe! Was it a love at first sight type scenario? In those environments, it? Because I can imagine that's quite an... People work and play hard. oh work hard, they play hard. Croubar is a crazy place. And, it was back in the day, we left in 2016. I mean, you definitely learn to work hard and play hard. can't, there's no like going, having a hangover and phone, oh sorry, I'm not coming in to this. The crew director will come and knock on your door the next time, like, you know, get your ass upstairs. So I think... I think that's where, like, I mean, I've always been a little bit of, I would say I'm a, I'll go after it. I think that's okay. Yeah, driven. That's the best way of putting it. But when you're at sea, whether it's a four month, my, most of my contracts in the end were four months because of my position, which was really lovely. when you first joined, they were like eight, nine month contracts and you work every single day. and some of the, some of the hours would be like 16, 18 hours. Like some of them are so long. And you, you just kind of get used to that. So that sort of maybe practice a little bit for the business that we work, live, sleep. Yeah, we're to sort of being just all encompassing all around us all the time. So I think being on cruise ships actually was quite good training, not knowing what was coming. And it's quite, I guess it's as an environment for a relationship to develop in. That's quite intense, isn't it, as well? Because you're around each other. I guess there is no escape. So it can go well or it can go badly. And regardless, you're still in the same space and you're seeing each other most days. In this case, it went well, which is really nice. Well, there's a lot of short term relationships happen. Yeah, very short term. I don't know, I guess we're lucky. the thing is we met in Sydney, but we literally lived 10, 15 minutes away from each other. We was from Wickford in Essex and I was from Canford. more we were chatting, the more we realized through our time how we just sort of followed each other around, you know? So you met in, I was trying to do quick maths, it was 12 years ago, 2013. Yep. You started Wilmers in 2016? So what, so talk to me then. So you met and then Wilmers was formed. What happened in that time to get you from the ship to starting a, how do you describe it? A bakery? It's so much more than that now. So basically we were merrily working at ships. I think even though we'd always said, we, said about coming off of ships and we'd started to think about our long-term plan and we thought we were going to start an entertainment agency for performers to go onto cruise ships. And that's what we wanted to do. was like our long-term experiences. It's a it's a safe. Well, we also knew some contacts, we? We knew the people that work shore side. We sort of had some good ideas that would have, at the time, fixed a few problems that we were experiencing as, eventually I stopped dancing and become sort of management and I worked up to become Gemma's sort of second in the department. So between us, were managing the department and we were just constantly frustrated at some of the shortcomings in some other areas of the department. I was like, oh my God, if we were to come up cruise ships, we could start this, we could do this, recruit this, we could fix this problem. gonna call it? that's it! Well rounded performance. wow. We had it all down. We had it all down. So cringy. But yeah, that was going to be it. sorry, I got distracted. That was the question I was going to answer. Sorry. Basically, I felt ill. I started getting recurrent uveitis, which is an infection of your uvea. And I got some weird rashes and I kept getting lots of ulcers. one day, so with the uveitis, I kept having to take Maxidex, which is a steroid drop. And I kept having to go shoreside. to see different eye specialists. I've been all over Australia seeing these different specialists because every time I get an infection, sure side will go, okay, cool, you've got to go and see someone. invariably we would never be in the same port and it would flare up. Exactly, which was quite frustrating. And then one day, of the doctors, said, well, this isn't just an eye problem we're treating, this is an autoimmune disease that you've got. And I was like, And it was the day of Australia Day, the 26th of January. And I was getting off the next day to go for another appointment and the senior doctor on board said, I'm, Gemma, I'm so, sorry. And I just looked at her and I was like, can't medically disembark a cruise director. She went, no, I've spoken to LA, we're disembarking you. was like, hang on a minute, I'll be back. So I skipped her up and I was like, Captain, we have a problem. I called Shoreside and the director of entertainment, Shoreside was like, what? You're fine. Look at you. And I was like, I know, look at me. And everyone was like, well, we can't just lose a cruise director. That is not how it works. So they said, can you give us like a week so we can find a replacement? We had a short, a three day cruise coming up and they said, okay, cool. We can get someone to come on to cover your position for three days. Look at you. You're fine. You'll be fine. Then I, so I got off in Auckland and they'd sent me to this specialist hospital and they're like, you're going to do. hearing samples, all the time, all these different tests. I was like, okay, cool. So got off in Auckland, said goodbye to Will, like high five to the director. exactly. High five to the cruise director who was coming on, did like a little shimmy down the gangway. And I was like, I'm fine. So entertainment business, because I actually imagine you doing this. You know I I was like, woohoo! Hoping that I was going to just get to go and stay in hotel for a couple of days after the doctor was like, yeah, fine. But I got there and he gave me a once over and looked at my bloods was like, we need to get you medical clearance to fly you back to the UK. I was like, what? I'm fine. Sorry, hitting the microphone. I'm very expressive. um said, I'm fine. They said, basically you're not. So then I literally went straight back to the ship and I said to Will, I was sitting in the office, turning my hands up in a nice possible way, what the hell are you doing here? I am actually being medically disembarked now. That's it. We're going home and we've said, well, I'm coming with you, which obviously the outcome that weren't top two people. Exactly. I can't not, like, you know, we've been together at this point for a few years and was like, but when we get home, she might be running around, you know, we don't know what kind of, you know, tests they're going to need to do, what kind of medication they might prescribe. They might not need anything, but if Gemma's going, I'm going. And we've always said to them, we come as a package. So when placing us on ships, we said our rotations need to be the same. We need to be on the same ship. Otherwise we're not going to come. And we were dead serious about it. So I had to sort of call their bluffing away and go. Yeah. So how's that? Hi. So goodbye for coming back. I can imagine that is a crushing experience to go through when you're doing what you have set out to do from being a youngster, both of you. And you're just sort of going along, as you said, quite merrily, know, we're sort of there enjoying ourselves working, I mean, like Australia Day is a crazy sort of period of time, at least for an Australian cruise company in Australia, it's, know, one of the busiest sort of party times. And there we are just, you know, going along and say, by the way, you're going home in four days. What? We earned really good money, we flew business class around the world. The whole lifestyle was one that you were very happy. like sometimes we would have different guests and celebrities that would come on and it would be our, we would have to go and take them for dinner and like it was, it was a really, really lovely life. And I don't think I ever really mourned the loss of that life occasionally, like doing my makeup in the car now on the way here. was like, life sucks. um Not because we're coming here, just because of the day we've had. Don't start a business. But yeah, was, but then we got home and literally we then started. We had two months at home where we were sort of bumming around. We was going to the gym, waking up really late, spending time with friends thinking we are going back to ships. And then when you got the medical diagnosis, we were under Bupa at the time, being fast-tracked. And then all of sudden we got the medical diagnosis and the company went, oh, we don't want to touch you anymore. Bye. Yeah, you're not coming back now. So that was it. And that was the end of the career. And we were like, wow, what do we do now? Which then, I guess, brings us into the next part where we started the business. So talk to me about that then. Why the industry that you ended up moving into? You've gone from being in the entertainment industry, isn't it? you're in, to then starting Wilmers. We were sitting down one day at breakfast, weren't we, whilst sort of bumming around going to the gym and we were sitting down at breakfast and went for... Yeah, and we sort of said, well, is there anything we can do? Gemma would always had a passion for baking. Whenever we come home from ships, jet lag is a thing. And Gemma would be up at three, two... Always just waking in the morning like I'd get up and then everyone would come down. uh come down to the smell of fresh cake every morning, like there'd be banana bread to bed, there'd be little Victoria's sponge, there'd be all sorts of stuff. It was great when I was dancing because I had a good body, I was in good shape, but then when I stopped dancing, I wasn't quite as physically anymore. I put on quite a lot of weight quite quickly because Jen was like, have some cake, have some of this, have some of this. And then we were sitting there, were like, well, you know, if we're to do something with this, like, do we try and find something to do in between contracts? Because, you know, we were away for four months. We honestly still thought that we were going to go back this is just before we got the diagnosis, I should add. But we were sitting there thinking, well, if we come up with this sort of idea that we were sort of brainstorming, we could have this work when we come home for two months at a time, then we get to go back to Australia for four months, then we can pick this back up for two months and we can book jobs in with what we were proposing in our off time. And the idea was we was going to do sort of like a coffee trailer and we're going to go to... and Kate will do festivals, foodie events. We can book them up in advance then we can sort of know when we're going back to Australia, like not council bookings, but you know, stop the booking period, go back to Australia, then when we're out there, email's a lovely thing, send some emails off, book some things in, come back and carry on So we're like, you know, that way we've got, you know, we're still having income because that's the problem with the ships, isn't it? You go four months on, two months off, the two months is unpaid. There's nothing, you are living off of what you've saved on the ship. So we thought maybe we could come up with something that enables us to have some sort of income, save us. living on our savings. You mentioned the trailer there as well. So, Cakey McCakeface, I was looking at this when I was doing some research too. So, you get back and you're diagnosed. In the chronology, when does Cakey McCakeface end up on the set? a couple of weeks before really, isn't it? no, so we got back literally the beginning of February and we got Cakeface in the May and that one was a disaster. Well, it wasn't a disaster. So we said, oh, where was like, are we going to do something like, are we going to do something with this? Maybe like, what could we do? And I was like, oh, well, glad you asked. I found this on Gumtree and it was a pink trailer. I was like, festival was, yeah, okay, cool. Right. And I was like, okay, I'll organize our book of viewing. So It's on the right, didn't it? West End. In the West End. were like, it's not far. We're Essex. London's only down the road. Happy days. called the woman and I was like, Hey, love to come and view your trailer. Can we come? She was like, okay, cool. So we booked it the day after after next. And, that was it booked in the West end. That's all I knew. Um, we went, then went and bought a four by four so we could pull the trailer. So we clearly thought that we were definitely going to buy it. It was literally the day before I then gave her a call. like, hey, sorry, didn't get your postcode. W1, what is it? And she's like, it's GA. I was like, GA? I'm in London. But then started typing it in. I was like, oh, holy, I'm in so much trouble. Glasgow. So, yeah, so. a big commitment. We then headed up the M1 to Glasgow in a car we'd bought the day before, not knowing anything about doesn't break down. Hoping it doesn't break down on us. It was a Shogun, a Mitsubishi Shogun. It was an absolute beast of a car. Oh my god. I've never had a car before where I've had so many people at the four courts in petrol stations going, mate, can I buy that car off you? just a nod. I was like, what have we got? I didn't realise what we had. Oh, it's stolen in the end. Yeah, it did get stolen in the end, unfortunately. it got us to Glasgow, it got us the trailer. And back. And back in a day. trailer knowing nothing about trailers but they're not things you can't learn and we kind of have that mental You sort of go around it and you do the whole sort of once round give the tires a kick and go solid Yeah, we'll take it so you didn't have a clue what we looking at and off we drove back down to Essex And then that was where it started and were like, well, how are we going to get work? I was like, I'll make some phone calls. So like literally sent a few emails. I was like, this is what we're doing. Obviously we didn't, well, we haven't done any events at that stage. And then people were like, sounds great. We were like, okay, lovely, book us in. Wow. So I would assume at that point this goes from baking as a hobby or baking is something that sounds like it was just a nice way for you to spend your time, wind down, get over the jet lag to now, oh shit, I need to actually bake enough things. so that was quite a joke. How do we figure out how much to bake? Where do we get the ingredients from? How do we transport these things? There's all these things that now we're like, great, we've got the job. What do we do now? So then, so at first it was literally buying all of our ingredients from supermarkets, but just massive trolleys of them like, this is fun. And people go, oh, hungry. Yes, hungry. And it was only the more we bought, like we'd look into it and we'd find different contacts and then people would recommend other companies and we, we learn on the way. We made a lot of mistakes. Like some events, we, the first big event we did was, Brownstock festival. And that one, I think the pitch fee was a couple of grand because we were just coffee and cake. Whereas for some people, they go in paying like 12 grand for a pitch at these sort of events. And it was the last year, I think, that they did it. They didn't let every, all the people that were going to the festival, they didn't let them in until late because there was a ride which was too close to another one. Health and Safety had said no. So pretty much everyone came in at like eight o'clock, all sunburned, all absolutely drunk because they'd just been sitting in their tents all day. And a lot of them were gurning and I was like, oh God, these people aren't gonna want coffee and cake, like, God. I think within 45 minutes of opening we had this cute little table and chairs similar to the table and chairs we've got out the back out the front of our leash shot. And within 45 minutes someone had actually fallen off the chair and was fitting on the floor. Yeah, and then one of the tables got stolen. was like, oh no, this isn't ideal. What we're doing, you we've got a van out the back with tons of cake and, you know, we've got milk or coffee for days. And we thought it was going to be like previous years, they'd been really successful and they have lots of people that had like habitual coffee in the mornings. uh It's worthwhile you putting that money into it Absolutely. So we looked at all of all of this data and then we're like, okay, cool. Let's make this leap. And we did it and literally the next day when we had a couple of people come in for coffee and everyone else was just literally going again and being sick up our trailer. I was like, this is a bad idea. And I went out the back. I was like, if there's a God, please help us right now. Just let's break even, break even like just let us break even. And I think we went home with 70 pounds after doing like a week of work, 70 pounds on top of breaking even. we made 70, we're 70 quid up. But we were talking to all the other traders and they were all literally thousands, they were going home thousands of pounds down and they're like, that's probably our business done. If that were us, that would have been the end of Wilmers as we know it. Like we wouldn't have carried on. We wouldn't have had the money. You've sort of finished before you've even got going. you pay the pitch fee and then you have to invest so much like into stock and ingredients. we learned quite quickly with that scenario is that again the people that are tasked with selling the pitch fees are just salesmen and they will sell you anything you know and they'll give you all the good numbers yeah we've got 12,000 people coming that's 12,000 people over three days right and we've got 12,000 people coming how many people are camping because actually there's only like 500 people camping so they will you know so you aren't going to have many people there in the morning great so you've got 12,000 people coming what's your demographic male female old young you know are they predominantly 15 16 17 year olds all these questions we learn on the back of that, but at the time you're just going, I think they've got 12,000 people coming. Let's book up. You're wowed by numbers, aren't you? When I say you're, we are all wowed by numbers. And when you're starting a business, you can get super excited about that, but you learn very quickly to qualify. I need to ask a few more questions here. And it sounds like you did that because you became more successful with Cakey McCakeface as you went along. I'm sure you got recognized, the brand got recognized and... We were asked to attend so many events and in the end we were then picking where we wanted to go and we were like, tell us where, where, like you tell us why we should come to you and we'll let you know if we can do it. Um, and it got to the point where we did some really, really lovely festivals and they're all, um, family festivals. did loads of foodie events and people really wanted us. And then we were being like gifted a spot, which was awesome. And We were really lucky to meet some of the people on the internet as well. It really looked after us as well, which was really nice. great. It got to the point where it was so successful that we then went and bought a second. We bought a horse box, didn't we? And then we did a second. And then we did lots of Christmas events and we just kept getting busier and busier, which again is such a lovely thing. And then we went, okay, cool. Let's get bricks and mortar. How then do you go from a trailer, a horse box, to then going bricks and mortar? So whatever we made, we really, really cared about. Like we're very meticulous for certain details. So like the coffee and the cakes, there's a science behind it. And I'd done, I should have said before that I'd done lots of like different courses with baking and stuff. You'd spoken to lot of chefs, a lot of pastry chefs, a lot of... like celebrity chefs and bakers in Australia. And so I dealt with them and like that was a real passion. So then I then went and did different courses and we really took the coffee side of things really, really seriously. So we had a really good basis and we were just, we were popular at the time, which was nice. And we said, okay, well, how about we set up something which isn't as quiet as hard work as it is because doing lots of different festivals, you're literally packing down, packing up, setting up like they're so we traveling across the country. For sure. And it's also quite seasonal. downside to it is it's very uh weather dependent. You can have an event where a family day, in the summer you have family fun days and it's, last year we had X amount of thousand people turn up. The minute rain is on the horizon, that number will huff. even more? Yeah, sometimes more if the rain does actually come. Sometimes the event doesn't go on at all and you think, well, you can't deal with that unpredictability. So we like, need to start trying to get something that's a bit more predictable. We can keep the traders as like a side hustle, but we need to start looking for something that we can have as a base, know, something that we can sort of put our stamp on and make our home. So being the, I guess the forward running people that we are, we started looking on Rightmove at different properties for rent. We found a couple, the first one that we found, didn't go ahead, it fell out of bed. And then we found this one where our Leon C shop is, our first one. And it looked like it wasn't actually going to go ahead, wasn't it? it was on and off for quite a while just because the tenant that was in there at the time, he was having an ah-ing as to whether he was going to give that part up. It was two shops. It made into one and he wasn't sure if he was going to give a bit up and, you know, sort of to and fro for a while. And then I said, leave it with us and I'll get back to you. Yeah, we were just carrying on with the summer season, weren't we? Just thinking, look, we'll look when the summer season closes. We've got sort of a full diary. We can't really facilitate doing that as well as all of this. what he meant to be and then I think towards the end of the summer season he gave you a ring didn't he? Yeah, our landlord. And the thing is, I was really lucky to pick up the phone because I'm awful with my phone. It's usually in a handbag. I'm really, really bad. That is one thing I suffer with, was my phone. And I picked it up, I was like, hello. And he said, it's Graham, the landlord. Do you want the shop? It can be yours. And I was like, yes, we'll take it. But we'd had like a little sad spell where we were like, it's never going to happen. Even though we were looking at other shops, but we thought that that one had fallen through and... It just seemed that it was meant to be. And we took on the lease and you did all the work, getting it out. Our friends came and helped. didn't have big funds did we? We only had what we'd earned in the summer and it's not phenomenal amounts of money. We had some but it wasn't a lot. So we took the coffee machine out the trailer and put that in the shop because we couldn't afford a coffee machine. We did a lot of the work ourselves. We had a glass partition wall in the shop initially didn't we that you found online from the Gherkin. You travelled all the to Gherkin in London to go and pick it up. I really wanted, again with the crazy ideas, I really wanted a glass wall for our kitchen so that people could see their birthday cake being made or if they're a wedding cake, like the couple can come in and watch their wedding cake being made. couple's going to have time the day before their wedding. So was we were like, yeah, it's a lovely idea. You know, sort of figured out all the finer details. Without knowing the chronology of how close to the wedding the cake would have to be made, I was thinking, yeah, that'd be pretty cool. But I understand what you're saying. Yeah, literally, it's the day before the wedding. We don't freeze anything. Nothing's like it's as fresh as it can be. absolutely. So that idea soon went out the window. And then once we had this window and we had this tiny little kitchen, which I don't know how we worked in it was so small. We then found actually, what was a lovely idea actually came at the detriment to our time because people would be like, how do you do this? Can you can you do that again? like, no, this is actually a game. It's not a baking class. We got to know sort of customers, customers become friends. And then as they come in, they sort of want to say hello and talk to you. So often you get sort of, they can see you're working, so can see you, they can't hide. So then you'd often sort of end up stop what you're doing, go around and have a little chat. And well, if that happens three or four times a day and it happens for 10 minutes, you've lost an hour a day just chatting to people. And that's without any sort of... Our productivity was low. as soon as a customer was thrown in, a lot of the time we wouldn't leave until like midnight one o'clock and then the morning we'd be in at like five o'clock in the morning. And be honest, it'd be crazy long days. I mean, some of it we brought on ourselves because, know, again, we like to chat. So it'd be like someone coming up, oh, hey, how you doing? We haven't seen you for a week. You know, chat, chat, chat, chat, chat, chat, chat, chat, So when we first started, pricing was a really bad thing and I was always really, really scared to price things and still I'm really bad at quoting now. Like Ellie will take care of pricing or quoting for me because I'll be like, oh, but that does sound quite expensive. And she's like, do you realize how much the ingredients are? I'm like, I know. So like I really under quoted for all of our cakes when we first started. And then word spread that we made cakes that tasted also more dirty. then before I knew it, I was doing like 25 cakes on my own on like on a day and then it would just, it'd be manic. Yeah, it was a lot. it still just you two at this stage? Yeah, we got a Saturday girl and our first proper employee, she worked locally and she was a regular in the shop. She loved our products, which was great. And she'd just been made redundant. she was really lovely and we probably see it to this day. We do see it. We always stop and say hello like she's lovely, lovely girl. And I'm so glad that we hired her. But at first, when we hired her, we were like, what happens if we take her on and we then can't pay her wages? Like what happens? And when we took on the shop as well, we took on the lease and we both discussed what happens if we then can't pay the lease? Then what happens? Like, I don't want to lose our house. We need to make our mortgage repayments. There's obviously quite a lot of risk involved. And we were like, okay, well, I don't know, I'll be a busman. like whatever it is. And we weighed up Catherine's wages at the time and then we went, okay, right. Okay, well, if I need to get a part-time job in the evenings at a bar to be able to afford to pay Catherine to help us in the day so that we can then be more productive, we can do it. And thankfully it never came to that, but taking on our first staff member was so scary knowing that we were paying for her living as well as our own and like... Speaking from experience, I've got one other employee in my business and I've only hired him a year ago. So I've been running the business for five and a half years. It took me a long time to get comfortable thinking about bringing someone else in, but it's a huge consideration for me when I was, you don't want to do something that's going to put yourself in a difficult position. But also once you've hired someone, yeah, you take on the responsibility for them to pay for their mortgage and their bills. It's a lot. uh I think people underestimate that when they see people running companies and yeah, you're taking the stress of operations, but also other people's responsibilities. And now we've got 25 staff. like, Could you ever imagine having 25 staff when you started out? million No, like even now, the fact that sometimes we'll walk into one of our shops and like if we walk into Lee, it's like nostalgic. It's like, this is where it all started. Or we'll walk into Rayleigh and it will be really rammed or in Southend and you just like, this is ours. Like, it's so crazy to think. It started off in our kitchen in our flat in Langdon with just you and I cooking out of our little oven and then we bought like a commercial oven that lived in the corner of our living room. we had this big and then we had a commercial kitchen. So we didn't really have friends over and we couldn't have pets. We couldn't have anything. Now we have pets, which is lovely. I am, I did a bit of digging. Could you have some very interesting cats? uh If they're still around? you tell us about your cats please? Because they are quite unique. Yeah. Naked caps. Ed and Winnie. Sphinx. Sphinx. So Ed is the... the ones if you're struggling to picture them, the ones that feature in Friends. What makes the Bigglesworth in Austin Powers? But specifically a lot of people always refer to the one that Rachel has and holds. Yeah, they've kind of got a bad rap, but it couldn't be further from the I think they're notoriously hard to love. Yeah I'm saying this, provoking reaction. I don't mind them. I'm not a cat person, but I did see some of the pictures that you shared online and you've made them look very cute. There's a collection of jumpers and there's... They're more like dogs than they are cats. They just come and meet us at the door. we got Ed originally was because all of sudden where we didn't have, you know, the kitchen at home and actually the shop was sort of becoming a self-sustaining entity. We were like, wow, we can afford a pet now. Life goals. responsible enough. Yeah, we're responsible enough. I was like, cool. So Gem was sitting on her phone. She's like, I've been looking at pets and I was like, no, let's not do it yet. She's like, no. So I found this cat. They're like dogs, but they... But they've got a phone showing me pictures like, oh my God. I'd never seen one before. was like, wow. Tell a lie. You had seen one because when we opened m Wilma's in Lee, we had a pink secondhand fridge that I'd found on uh eBay or Facebook marketplace, one of those. And when we went to pick up the fridge, she had Sphinx cats. I was like, my God, I love these. I'd never seen them before and I didn't know how to act. was like, do I stroke them? I be a little bit on edge and I've never met your cats I'm sure they're really lovely but I'd just seeing a hairless a hairless cat would would freak me out And we had, at one point when we were in our flat, had to move out, had some building works done because some things went wrong. And the builder come round to look at giving us a quote for ripping up the floor. And Ed was on my shoulder because they love to sit up high. he's just sitting there on his shoulder and he walked in and looked at it. He literally screamed in my face, what is that? Took me out and run out. was like, that's a bit of a strongly action. was I'm a burly builder and he literally run out the door. was like, mate, he's a cat. And he just, he's a cat. I'm like, chill out. Everyone I think everyone's like, oh, I'm not so sure and then they literally they're like velcro So they just want to be on you and they love a beard. 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Yeah, when we were opening, like, for the whole time. pessimistic about it when I was like I'm not sure if it's the right idea hence the reason I was looking into jobs that I could do to afford the lease at least for the first year until we could give notice to leave so we didn't have to lose our house I was like I don't know if it's the right thing I really don't feel comfortable with this I don't know if we're gonna if it's gonna work and Gemma's like no it's gonna be great and look what we've done with the trailers and we're gonna do the same and she was really upbeat and then a week we to the opening it was everything was coming together we had the flowers on the ceiling we had the glass in the wall I think we were finalizing the connections for the coffee machine and giving things a coat paint. And I think the enormity then hit the, yeah. I was just like, what happens if nobody comes? Like what happens? And we was like, don't say that. Look how far we've come. Now people have to come. I was like, yeah, but if they don't, we're fucked. And he was like, no, no, no, they will. And then, yeah, we had a massive row. I had my first ever panic attack, which was like crazy. But do remember we had that row and this is really, really weird. We had the row, we were driving down, is it Marine Parade? Is it driving out of Lee? And as we were driving down, you got the estuary on the left-hand side. And I kid you not, our old ship that we met on was sailing down the estuary. It gives me shivers thinking about it. I swear, basically we were on a ship called the Pacific Pearl. It was a P &R Australia ship. It was an older ship and they were looking to increase their fleet size, but they had to get rid of some of the dead wood and the Pacific Pearl was made way for some of newer ships. So they sold it to a company that operated out of Grays of all places. We didn't know this at the time. didn't know it. And we're driving down having this big row and we both just went, that's the Pearls. And we, it was almost, I don't know, it felt like. that it stopped you rowing? Yeah. oh And it felt like it was like our old life meeting our new life and it sounds like. Yeah It really did. I'm not hugely into that sort of thing, but it really did. it just, even now, I'm with me shivers, like, picturing us driving down, this blazing around, seeing our old ship. That is crazy though. We don't really argue the only time we ever really argue is about the business. Yeah, it's always about work. Like we're both so passionate about it. Often I'm right and she's wrong. So we have to argue. oh And then we had another fight. I think in the first, like in the early days, everyone just thought that you were doing it just to support my baking dream because I'd baked all the cakes for everyone. But it really, wasn't like that. And it took a while for even like family and friends to then actually go, no, this is definitely both of them as opposed to Will. From day one, mean, like the baking is an area that you've always taken care of. But then I've always had my areas I've taken care of. it's always been like, from day one, I'll sort some logistical stuff out. I'll figure out how we're going to transport the stuff. I'll figure out how we're going to do the renovations. will design it and I'll make it. Jen will bake it and I'll be flitting around in the background annoying her while she's trying to decorate it or something. I don't know. It's kind of like what you were saying just before we started filming about the podcast, like how Tom does a lot of the behind the scenes. Don't tell everyone. Sorry, Tom does a lot of the stuff. And you're the face, right? Like I think because a lot of the time I'm on social media, doing like a live in a hairnet looking awful, that I guess sometimes I'm the face. mean, we've been on holiday last year, we was in, was it last year? year before? And it was our second, first day, second day, we were in the buffet and somebody walked by, Jen went, my God, you're Gemma from Wilmers. And obviously at the table, didn't realise she was that. Someone recognised us from the shop. I was like, oh, did I have a good amount of food on my plate? Did I look too greedy? Was it not? No. I was like, okay, no. And yeah, that was, it was odd. And then we started like getting recognized around just randomly. And then people would come from like drive for hours to say, oh, we've come to Wilmers. Like literally we've driven from Liverpool to come. Cool is that though, that's such like knowing that you've created a brand and a product that people willing to do that for must be amazing. Crazy. It's mind blowing, it's humbling, it's amazing, it's so many other words that I can't describe. Like there's so many days that you're having like a bad day and something nice will happen. Like we said to Gem on the way here, we're not going to discuss or anything we're to talk about. Like what's the worst and best thing? We sort of question each other, not knowing what we're going get questioned on. It was like, what's... you know, what's the worst bit about the job? we're like, well, don't know that's one of your questions. Sorry if it is. there. You've ruined it. Wait a But there's no one singular worst thing. know, there's no one bad thing more than the other. You're like, you know, customers, they can be our best thing. They can be the worst thing. You know, we've had some really difficult customers this year. But just the other day, said to Gemma, we had a lady send an email on Instagram who's been with us since the early days of Lee. And she sent a really lovely message saying how the team were amazing. It was love to see Gemma in the shop. Gemma sort of managed to make a point of... I quickly spoke to her and her daughter and I gave him a wave, even though I was like in the middle of like five different things and I was like, lovely to see you. And then skipped off and she just said, was, was so lovely that you remembered us from, from the early days. I think I said, thank you for coming to see us in Southend. And she said, it was so lovely. And your team really look after people to the attention of detail that you guys used to. And so. It really is that making the team see that a customer is not just a transaction. They can go to Costa, they can go to Starbucks if they just want a transaction, but we've never wanted to be purely transactional. We've really wanted to make something that is great quality, tastes great, looks great, but it isn't just, it's about the whole experience, like making someone's day. Like when we first opened, like we'd say to people, oh, how are you? And people go. How are you? uh It's not a very British thing to experience, it, when you walk into shops? And now I feel like there's a lot more places, and I use Lee as an example, but a lot more places now, and it still takes me back. Because you're so in your zone, you're so in your little world, and then someone says, someone drags you out of it by asking you a question. And actually, it's a really lovely thing to feel like someone's genuinely, I think it's being genuinely interested in the answer. That's the difference. Yeah, I mean, yeah, you definitely got different ways of asking it like, all right. You if you break that down, are you all right? That's not someone asking, are you okay? That's just our way of saying hello, isn't it? To say hello, how are you today? and really care about how somebody is. know, it's it's interesting watching people from the other side of it. And, you know, that the headphones in or that we text in the friend and yeah, sorry, what was that? How are you? Oh, yeah, actually, no, you're my We once had a customer who we did their wedding cake actually. And she said, oh, my partner, he doesn't like coming in here so much. I'm like, oh God, why? And she said, oh, he just, he's really, really shy. He doesn't like knowing. And then I was like, oh God, now I'm too nice. Okay. I've got to this down guys. How do we strike the balance? that speaks to the community that you've built around the brand too and the culture of the company that you've built. Because again, everyone that you hire from your first hire, I can't remember her name, I'm sorry, Catherine, as a Saturday girl coming into the business to 25 employees, need them to, you don't want clones of you, but you want them to toe the line of the brand and what you've built and how you treat people. I want to ask, and I feel like this is a really good time to ask this question. You're a couple, you work together day in day out. How do you get the balance right? we've never mastered that one. Sounds like you were conditioned before because you met in a work environment We've always had it. I think it's for us. It's just the norm. I said, we've been in such a pressure cooker environment from the word go, being on cruise ships, working every single day for whatever period of time it is, whether that's four months, five months, six months, always being on call, always being on shift, always having to answer to someone, always, and I think that's just been like I said, good conditioning, good training, you it just becomes normal. We try and we always try not to take work home. But it is inevitable. Occasionally, there are days where we've literally we walk home from work and we'll have a rant on the way home and we're like, and then we'll open the door and then we'll go right, let's leave it here. It's done now. No, doesn't. Literally, we'll be laying in bed going, my god. And boundaries are important, aren't they, between work and life? I think it's easier when, well, my experience, I've never run a business with a partner, but I would imagine it's easier to have those boundaries where you are doing separate endeavours and you are not sharing that experience together. But it's, I'm saying this from a position of curiosity, knowing how people, couples like yourself, do it really successfully, there has to be a way to introduce those boundaries, I guess it always permeates that, doesn't it? It permeates your life in so many different does, like, Wormers is our life. We don't have kids. We literally, the business is our baby. uh our two velvet babies and furry baby. Yeah, exactly. They're our world. literally Wilmers does take up, we live and breathe it. All of our friends know that the business is kind of our life. That's really, really sad, isn't it? Like, oh I don't think it is sad. I don't think it's sad. It's in a world where we have so much advice always thrown at us about getting the balance right between work and life. I feel like if it works for you, then why not embrace that? If you are in a place where you can happily say, yeah, the business is my life. Or a massive part of it, the main part of it, the primary part of it, I don't think that's a bad thing. I don't think anyone sits there judging you for it. I think that's a... a great thing as long as you're happy with that being the case. like we are happy. uh fundamentally, I think there's got to be as much as we don't always admit it to ourselves. There are days where we passionately hate what we do. But I think fundamentally, there is a whole lot of love for what we do because we wouldn't have got this far. We wouldn't have sort of been able to make the products that we do without the passion, which ultimately comes from a place of care and love for what we do. So to then take that home, as much as we try and leave it at the door, it still does come home with you because it is our life, you know, it's what. We care, like it really, everything we do, we really care. And I feel like we put everything we can into the items we create. therefore if it's not, if not everything's perfect, I know we both take it really personally. oh Well, that's why you've been able to scale in the way that you have, isn't it? You've got three shops. You've grown from a trailer, respectfully, a trailer at festivals to now three premises in really prime locations in our part of Essex. And that's incredible. 25 employees in a time that you've been operating to. Like, it is cool. I would say... It's really cool, Gemma, I know, in all honesty, we give ourselves enough time and credit to sort of sit back and, you know, we get little snippets of it. I said the gem a few weeks ago, I was walking home and we were in the shop. I was working in the shop with some of the guys and I was on the coffee machine and I heard a girl on the phone to her friend. She's like, you know, I've just popped into town for a Wilmers. That expression blows my mind. Yeah, hear that and that to this day still blows my mind that people refer to us as doing a thing. It's not popping into town for a coffee. I'm just going to pop this down and grab some cakes. I'm popping into town for a Wilmers. And that to me is just like, wow. You're a name now that's synonymous with a thing. And now honestly is again humbling amazing all of the above m Whenever people tag like, oh, going to a friend's with a Wilmer's like, it's such a lovely feeling. And every time someone does tag, it gives me tingles inside. And I might not reply because I've got distracted by something, but no, like it makes resonates in it and it lands. It never doesn't not like that that to me is like the idea that that started off in our kitchen I'm like what yeah, huh? And do you know what? This is part of the reason I started the podcast to have conversations with people and hopefully give you a point in a, I don't know, a week, a month, two years time, you can listen back and reflect on this and think, yeah, actually we have achieved something bloody huge and you should be really proud of it. And yeah, call is a word you can use to describe it, but it's probably a bit more than that too. It's, um, it's all. I think the reason I'm like, yeah, cool, we've done a thing. Yeah, we've achieved that. Lovely. What's our next task? always doing what we're doing now, when it was just Will and I, it was kind of easy because we were just accountable. It was ours. Every mistake we can own. everything that goes great. Yeah, we did that awesome. Whereas now we've got to put our trust into other people making it is what it is. And it kind of, it's kind of, the business has snowballed and it's happened quite quickly, sustainably. But sometimes because it has snowballed and like the costs of running a business, for example, then our m our kitchen, we can actually still facilitate more than what we can. we, or what we're doing, sorry. So we're still looking for different ways to do that, whether it's going to be another shop or whether it's going to be different wholesalers. we're always, there comes this point where, because it's now not just us, we do constantly have to look forward. uh what we need to achieve next or what do we now need to do? What's the next target? But then because you're so focused on hitting those targets that you don't then always stop and go, that was really cool. proverbial pattern on the back. We're approaching the end now, but I did want to ask, have you got an idea of what enough looks like for you? And are you aligned on that? Because we're talking about scale, we're talking about the next thing, but when do get to a point you go, okay, yeah, I'm happy with that. Do you? We with both eventually I don't know how we would do it World domination. I'm big, this is it. I guess the idea would be eventually to be able to sell the business. There are other companies that have started in the way that we have and they've gone on to sell their business. I guess that would be really hard to hand over. And I listened to lots of different podcasts of people when they've sold their business and then they're like, I've just lost my identity. You've just described a few minutes ago the business as your baby and that's a big step to see that go. it up for adoption. To see that, all of that. Yeah, you've built something from the ground up and to see that go. But I'm just wondering what the, yeah, when do you get to a point where all of this drive and this energy, do you get to a stage where you say, okay, we've done it? because I think it all changes from one day to the next and that you have, you know, someone over in America deciding he's going to do all these weird things. And it makes you think what we're doing this for, because, you know, that could impact this and that has a knock on effect to that. And you just think, well, it's getting too difficult. And then there's other days you kind of wake up with like a spring in your step and you think, come on, we've got at least two more shops, three more shops. We want to get 10 more wholesalers. We want to increase our website, you know, and you think, yeah, we can do all these things. And then again, you know, the government will throw some out there and be like, oh, curve ball. Here's a new policy for you. sick when somebody else is called in sick and then you're splitting yourself in half you just think, I don't know how you managed anymore. you think that now is enough. And then as I said, tomorrow might be a new day. You wake up and go, I've definitely got it in me to be able to. in your head that sparks off an idea and that's the genesis for something else to happen. We really, we bounce off each other a lot and we're really lucky now to have a team of good close management team that we can also sort of throw ideas off of and you know we're sort of all quite aligned in what we're trying to push for at the minute. uh will be days where somebody's, I don't know, they're sort of like behind and then we sort of pull them forward or they'll pull us forward and they're like, come on, we're doing this. And that is really helpful that we've got that team now, because originally it just used to be just Will and I, and that was really hard when something would go wrong and... we would just literally be eating ourselves inside. now we see that happening to our managers and we're like, no, don't let this eat you. Like, let's brush ourselves down. oh It's a big thing isn't it? I've been there, done that. Let me tell you that it doesn't feel like this for a long time. But in regards to what's enough, right now I couldn't tell you. I don't know. Do you know the sense I'm getting is just momentum off you two. Like it keeps building. And I mean that in a really positive way. You could just get the sense of this energy that's still, I don't mean in a spiritual way. I just mean the way you're talking about it, there's so much energy emanating from both of you that you think, just momentum just keeps going. Absolutely. think there is a momentum there and we don't want to stop yet, but we also, we won't ever push forward just for the sake of expanding because that is so stupid. we want whatever, if we get another shot, then we want to know that we can keep the quality that nothing is going to drop. Like it has to remain excellent. Otherwise there's, it's our names above the door. I don't want people to associate. push for the sake of pushing to compromise anything. As I said, our biggest thing has always been and always will be the quality of the products we're producing. We'll never cut a corner. We'll never go and use inferior products. We'll never start freezing things just so we can produce more on a given day. It's always going to be fresh. If we can't do what we're doing now in the way we do it, I'm not interested in it. So it will always be as good a quality as what we are able to produce. And then in regards to things like, you know, the shops and yeah, I don't know. It's got to be right. You know, every single point along this journey, you know, the trailer, it just sort of fell on our phone. know, Jen was on it and it happened to appear. looked like it, yeah, in Glasgow, but like the Lee shop, it looked like it wasn't going to happen. And then it happened. The same thing happened with our Ray Lee shop. And that happened with our Southend because... to it, we inquired about it. We got the keys for it in August last year. We inquired to it about November the year before and we rung up the status and said, no, it's already gone. Cool. was like, that's gone. It was like shame because it looks like it's kitted out amazing from a kitchen point of view. Wenzel's were the previous tenants. They spent a small fortune. They've done it to such a great scale. the building because it was in a really bad way. And then they said, no, it's gone. was okay. That's a shame. That would have been a really good potential. And then I think two months later, they run up and said, it's all falling out of bed. It's going back on the market. Would you to come and look at it? we're like, yes. But things like that always seem to just happen. We've never pushed it. We've never constantly badgered anyone for the leases, for the things to happen. So whatever it is that does happen next, whether that be a shop, whether that be a wholesaler. it will be because it just naturally happens and goes that way. I mean, obviously we've got to be behind it to look for it. But I'm never going to start chasing or reading it. So if we put an offering on a shop and someone says, yep, we'll take it, then we'll go with it until it doesn't. But as I said, always with the back of our minds of the quality comes first. We've got in our head, like we've got some like, on our business future plan, like there are a few different places that we've thought that they would be nice to expand to. Um, but if it doesn't work, then we're okay with where we are, but if it does, then. I would imagine as well there's other ways to achieve things in your line of work other than expanding into different locations, geographies or different shops. You've got the whole R &D of what you're creating as well haven't you? There's so much versatility in your product that you get a kick out of that I would assume and still do the creative side of Yeah, I really love that side of the creativity, but then you're creative as well. Like you love the photography. Like there are so many different, the business, there are just so many different elements that there are so many different routes that we can go down. And even if we didn't get another shop, our website is a great way of Well, I there are are companies online that do wholesale of what we do, and they just do that. You know, they work on a website out of the kitchen. And they just do and you think, well, that's an entire avenue and a business in itself. So there's that avenue, you know, we don't need more shops, we could just go with that. we've got too many avenues at the moment. need to like, down some of these avenues. We're like, no. It's not like we're looking into all of them. It's not like we're trying to spread ourselves too thin. It's just, they are all the different avenues. They're all the things that are in front of us. And it's just, whatever happens, will happen. I'm going to ask you now for some advice, not personal advice. uh Well, funny enough, my question is what advice would you give to someone who wants to start a business? I think you've done a very good job of selling that, to be honest, to not start a business. think people that would have listened to watched this now might be inspired, you know, so. One of the podcasts that you were listening to earlier on was George Roll Boys. And we know George from locally and I think it was last year. Oh no, was the year before the van had just been written off. Our pink van had just been written off and I walked into uh Colt coffee m and George was sitting there. like, you're right. How's the business going? And I was like, George, do not start your own business. And he was like, well, I think, I think I'm going to, was like, don't do it, George, don't. do it, whatever you do, just don't do it. And he was like, okay. And then I was like, skipped out the coffee shop going, don't do it, George, don't do it. And that was it. uh He did it. And he's doing amazingly. uh was that your advice to George? And he just went the complete opposite way? He was like, okay. But yeah, if you could give me something to, say I came to you and say wanted to start a business. just think whatever it is you're gonna do you need to really consider all options make sure you've got all avenues covered because there'll be something you've missed and just make sure you love what you do because you need to make sure there's a passion there if you don't love what you do you don't have a passion for it in any degree you're gonna hate it quick you're gonna hate it real quick and then that's not gonna get you out of bed in the morning because but even today I didn't have a lot I personally have a lot on today general ad a hell of a lot on today. But there is no, when you haven't got a lot on to do, there's no one behind me to go, come on, you know, there's no manager behind you and you've got to be self motivated to get on with everything. So if you hate what you do, you don't enjoy it, you aren't going to have that motivation to get on and actually tick those tasks off because they're in doing. Because if you don't do them, who's going to do it? Yeah, you are accountable aren't know, and there's jobs today that I've done. The reason why I wasn't busy is because I've really procrastinated in doing because they're just the jobs that I don't like doing, VAT mainly. But sitting there trolling through it, you know, and if you don't enjoy what you do, you're going to find it really hard. So make sure that whatever it is you do, you've got some sort of passion for it. It's not just, I'm going do that because they're doing that. Or just for the money because it sounds obviously you're in business you do need to make money but if you're doing it just for the money then I don't think that's the right reason you're longer term maybe you're not going to have the longevity there. Yeah. Especially if you're doing food and drink because there's really not crazy amounts out there. see that many rich babies. to love it. oh think people and a lot of our employees would probably not all but a lot of them would probably think that we eat caviar for starters and drive around in very nice cars and walk the red carpets and it couldn't be further from the truth. You know, it's not to say we're poor, but it's certainly this isn't a rich career to be in. what you're saying, you've got to love it. Otherwise, you're not in it solely for the money. you say, you've got to love it. Don't get it for the money. And that seems to be a nice way of describing the situation. Yeah, for sure. said, like, you know, we live, we survive. But a lot of our friends are, if you look at it on paper, far wealthier than we are. You know, there's definitely better career choice, I think you could make than food and drink specifically. But then again, that comes from, you know, that uh passion and drive you've got for it. That gives you purpose, doesn't it? That gives you the purpose to get up out of bed in the morning, because you enjoy what you do. Um, yeah. sure you love it because there will be days where you definitely don't love it and there has to be like in a relationship you really have, there are days where you have to fight for it, right? With the business, there are days, months, maybe even years where you really have to fight and really have to. That's the reality of it, I think at the end of the day. not all sunshine and rainbows. People really think it is. It's so much hard work. Like we live, sleep, breathe it. It's all right. It sounds like it. Yeah, I was going to say there are worse industries to be in for that. So we are going to play Mr and Mrs. The first time we've done this on the podcast as well. Did you really? Yeah. Okay. Well, I hope this doesn't disappoint. Mr and Mrs. So I'm going to ask you a question and you're to have to hold up the corresponding card to I just say you really should have had a sequin oh you know what? can edit that in. Okay. We're going to start. Right. So Mr. And Mrs. Who's more likely to burn a batch of something? Oh, okay. So Will, should, we have to say the answer. I'm going to say the answer. Who's the better barista? Will. Yeah. Who gets more excited about a new cake flavor? Okay. Who's more organized? Or it depends. like the ones where it's different. you've both gone with Will. Yeah, like will is There's no caveats, Gemma, sorry. Go on, please, go on. What was the Willi's? Will does a lot of the serious side of the business and I just sort of like flounce around and just throw flavours together. Who is the messier baker? Very tidy, I you know. Who's better with customers? Okay, you've both got my Gemma on that one. Who's more likely to come up with a new idea? Doesn't have to be cake or bake related. no, you can't change your mind. Sorry, Gemma. You've got to lock that in. Oh, both. Okay. I don't know if that's against the rules, but that's all right. Yeah, we'll let you off. It's jacket. we do like we will. Okay, we're often in a line with what we're thinking of fixing and then we just bounce off and yes. uh I'll let you off. Look, there's usually no context allowed, but that's good. Hang on a minute, I thought this was the first time you're playing this. Well, there's on the multi-option ones, but you're for calling me out on that. Thanks, Jim. Sorry. Who's the bigger perfectionist? Oh. It's really got you thinking this one, hasn't it? awful. Will's gone with Will, you really pushed him over the fence on that one. Gemma's gone with Gemma. Okay, that was a spiteful one. Who sulks more when they lose an argument? okay. I didn't know it was going to go this way. So Will said Gemma, Gemma said Will. And who's more likely to say, told you so? Okay, both got it. Okay, all right. But at least you can admit to that. Who sneaks more test taste? Who sneaks more test taste during the bake? Gemma. Okay. Both said Gemma on that one. Who's got the better icing skills? Oh, you've got to that one down. oh I mean, icing is quite a broad spectrum. You've got like piping skills or you've got like smoothing skills of a cake. I'm just going to stay as broad as icing. So you're going to have to make a decision. which case. uh I'm going to go for me because then I do the other half. So there you go. Does that feel fair? Gemma's pulling her face. Who's more likely to start an argument? You little... you both got opposites on that one. said Gemma, Gemma said Will. Who's more likely to say yes to a last minute wedding cake order? Yeah, you both gone with Gemma for that one. And that sounds like it's happened. Can't say no, yes it has happened. It's also mainly because I don't answer the phone Gemma does so The practicalities of that one. And the last question, who's the real boss at Wilmers? Did you say you? You meant to say me? I didn't mean to cause a row, but thank you for indulging me on that. really appreciate it. Thank you so much for getting involved with that one. We have a closing tradition on the podcast, which is a question from my mum. This is always, I like to shock people because this is how I know you haven't listened to a whole episode and that's not an issue. So basically every episode, and there's been 47 episodes now, we get to the end and my mum sends a WhatsApp message in and asks, know who's coming in? She does know who's coming in. So they are, they usually related to the guests that I'm speaking to. But again, we never know what she's going to send through. So I'm going to play it for you. It's a voice note. It's a voice note. So, she has been to Wilmers. She's had a Wilmers. She has had a Wilmers. So she knows, she knows the brand. Right. Okay. Hopefully the volumes are up. As you're in the business of creating wonderful cakes and pastries, I just wondered how you managed to control your weight. Thank you. Oh, mom. So she's looking after my nephew at the moment and I think she's barfing him at that time. uh If she was washing up or like, yeah, on the beach. We literally go to the gym every single morning. So most mornings we wake up like 5.30 and we're usually in the gym by about 6.15, 6.30. And it isn't just, well, it isn't about the physique side of things, but for me, like it makes me a better human. For my head space, we go to the gym a lot. all the time, in fact, but we'll has been bulking and I've been trying to, um, I've been on a calorie deficit, which is really hard trying to, at least I think I know exactly the calories in every product. ah helps, doesn't it? Because I guess that's that'd be one of my things about eating, eating a Wilma's any of your products is how how do you track that? That'd be I would imagine that's easier for you. Yeah, yeah. Harder for me because I'm not Customers did come in not that long ago and it was in January actually and they were like, can you tell me how many calories are in this ultimate cookie? was like, do you want to know? And they're like, yes, I really want to know. was like, but do you? Like this is all butter, all chocolate. There's a lot of cream in there. Like, are you sure? Yeah. But I guess in knowing it gives you some power to, as you say, you get into a bit of a deficit and you can work against maybe some of the stuff that you are tasting. any difference. told them the calories and they were like, that's less than we thought. There's also a risk of getting high on your own supply, isn't there, when you're surrounded by all of this? I mean, and I've eaten a lot of Wilma's products over the years and they are absolutely incredible. feel that it's important to say that from a non-biased perspective. But yeah, when they're surrounding you all day, how the hell would you stop yourself? Is there an addiction? hard. It is incredibly difficult. It really is. I'm lucky because I do lot of the behind the scenes stuff. I'm often out the kitchen, especially now. wasn't, you know, go back four years ago. I was in the bakery every day with jam, smoothing cakes and whatever else. But I've sort of stepped out of that and I'm sort more in the office doing back at house boring stuff. So in a way that's kind of good for me. my waistline because I'm not around it because I find that when it gets to sort of 11, 12 o'clock, that's like peak. You're prepping lot of the cakes by that point and you're shaving lot of the cakes. the cakes always just offcuts. that all? uh they all go into a bowl for the guys to help themselves. up quite early by sort of 11, 12 o'clock, that is peak snacky time because you're getting ready for lunch, you're like, oh, just a little bit. And back in the we both did actually put on a fair amount of weight, didn't we? Just by snacking on stuff. And it was true, we did. So we've tried to sort of work a bit more in sort of like moderation. It's really hard doing the social media every day. I'm in the Southend shop and we'll be cracking a cookie or slicing a cake. And now a lot of the time I'll have a little bit and then I'm like, guys, you guys have it. the team, they get to take home a lot of products anyway. I'm like, who wants the cake? And they're like, yes, I'll take the cake. So it's good. Now sharing, I share a lot. Okay. Again, you're half it. Yeah. It all works out. So in answer to mum's question, training, really discipline from the sound of it and just giving stuff away. Being half of the product away. Cool. Guys, thank you so much. It's been such a pleasure. And I know you've had an incredibly busy day and still to come in and commit the time to. uh Don't be silly, it's absolutely fine. But it's been a real joy to have the conversation after knowing of you and having met you briefly many years ago to sit down and have the chat. thank you so much. Thank you guys. Cool. We're all done. Brilliant.