JobsWorth

JobsWorth - Abby Thomas

• John Hawker

Share episode

My guest this week is Essex based  Social Media Manager, Strategist and Content Creator, Abby Thomas.

“I spent the majority of my 20’s working in a corporate role feeling like I was watching myself live out someone else’s life.”

It’s a powerful statement and one that I think will resonate with a lot of our listeners. 

Abby’s is a story of  resilience, hard graft and ultimately a lesson in the liberation that comes from  getting sh*t done on your own terms. 

During our conversation we talk about the pressure that so many of us feel in our late teens to get a “proper job” and how that can lead us to turn our back on the things we love doing. 

We talk about what it takes to leave the perceived security of the corporate world, overcoming redundancy, the reality of building a business from scratch and the very real impact of burnout. 

I also ask Abby a load of your questions on all things social media (get your note pad out and prepare to create better, more authentic content) and my mum comes up with a banger of a question to close things out. 

Please enjoy…Abby Thomas. 

#jobsworth #podcast #career #worklife #storiesthatinspirechange

The JobsWorth website is here www.jobs-worth.com

Watch the show on YouTube; https://www.youtube.com/@jobsworthpodcast

Follow the show on Instagram; https://www.instagram.com/jobsworthpodcast/?hl=en

Follow me on LinkedIn; https://www.linkedin.com/in/johnhawker/

Follow me on TikTok; https://www.tiktok.com/@globaltechcollective

Subscribe to my newsletter 'The Job Journal from GTC'; https://subscribepage.io/TheJobJournal

Learn more about my proper job; https://www.globaltechcollective.com/

Contact the show on hello@jobs-worth.com

you Welcome to this week's episode of Jobsworth. My guest is Abbie Thomas, who is a social media manager, strategist and content creator from Leoncy in Essex. And as you might have come to expect from Jobsworth now, We do talk about what Abby now does for a living, but we also explore her journey to getting started there in the first place. Now I've asked over 50 guests the opening question to the podcast. Now, when you were younger, what did you want to be when you grew up? And in Abby's case, that was something incredibly creative. Now it was only when I pushed her on this a little bit further that we, we being me and the team found out that what she wanted to be, she was incredibly bloody good at and could have made a career out of it. in its own right. But at the age of 17, 18, Abby did what so many of us do in our late teens and decided that she was going to get a proper job and go and earn some money. What followed was a move into a more corporate environment. She did that for over five years, was incredibly good at it, had a career trajectory set out in front of her, was earning good money. But Abby describes this part of her life as having a bit of an out of body experience, looking down on someone else's life and wondering who the hell that was. So she made the incredibly brave decision to step out of that and then back into a more creative space. So we pick up her journey from there. The trials and tribulations, the challenges, redundancy, starting a business from scratch, building that on her own, what burnout can look like. We talk about burnout. And Abby's experience of burnout is pretty severe. She's actually developed a chronic illness through her experience of burnout. But that, I think, has taught her an incredibly important lesson, which is to set boundaries to prioritize work-life balance and your own health. Because without that, you really have absolutely nothing. So that's a really powerful message. And we do talk about that for a bit. We also try and cram as much Actionable advice as possible into this episode. So a couple of days before we recorded I put a message out on Instagram asking people to send in their questions about all things social media Yes, we do discuss the algorithm. So there is an answer on that but there is so much more So this really is a podcast episode you can listen to and then go and put a lot of that Advice into practice if you are looking to build a brand looking to build a business online and definitely an audience that's gonna engage with your content. So I really hope you enjoy this one. Please let us know as always, your feedback and comments wherever you're listening or watching and stay tuned for next week. you We are going to start with the opening tradition on the podcast, Abby. So we're going to go straight into it. When you were younger, what did you want to be when you grew up? Ooh, erm... That's a really fucking hard question, actually. It stumped me when I was asked it recently. I don't feel like I ever really knew what I wanted to be from a young age, but I was really interested in like performing. I always had random costumes on, mum's shoes, hair done up, glasses. And then when I got to sort of maybe around eight years old, we started dancing as kids, me, my siblings. Um, so I've got quite a big dance background. So I think there was probably a period of my life when I was around, you know, later childhood that I probably wanted to dance or be a performer or entertain. I used to street dancing and break dancing. I've got the moves. Yeah, still got them. They get popped out of parties and stuff. bet, what a party trip to bring out. uh So did you do anything with that at all beyond your childhood at all? Did you go and do any more courses or classes or study in that field at all? so I from around eight years old to probably up to 16, we did lots of like adverts. had the BBC do a documentary on me for like six weeks. She wouldn't have mentioned this, okay, that's amazing. I think like did concerts and yeah, like some music videos and you can probably find all of this stuff on YouTube and stuff. But I got to, it was very competitive and I think I got to around like 16 or 17 and I was thinking, how am I going to make a career out of this? Is this something that I want to do for like the rest of my life? So I was kind of having those questions quite early on. I did go to dance college and just had this desire that it didn't feel like it was right for me. The structure didn't feel right. And I really wanted to earn some money, I think, at like 17, 17, 18, yeah. Was it a big part of your identity? sounds like it would have been going from that age up to 16, 17. It have been a huge part. 100%. And when I got to my twenties, I felt maybe around 25, I was working, we'll probably go into this, a corporate role that I fucking hated. And I felt like had I missed a part of my life that I should have gone back to and revisited and kind of almost this sense of like grieving a part of me that was such a big part of my life when I was younger, should I maybe have gone back into that. But I remember going to take class pineapple and was like no that was like for when it was and not for So you revisited that later in your life when you got into this corporate world and thought I'm going to dip my toe back in, see how it feels. And you realised that was a chapter that's gone. closed and yeah and then that felt really good. Okay. So talk to me then, because at 16, 17, I think you've probably hit the same mark a lot of people do, which is maybe you've seen your friends start to earn some money. Maybe you start to see your friends choose what they want to do at college or even university and start to think what they're going to do with their lives. What led you to your corporate job in the first place after doing something that is this creative outlet? Tell us a little bit more about that path if that's okay. uh I didn't know what to do with my life at all. In school, I wasn't particularly academic. I always felt quite uh stupid in school. I think now getting older and having in recent years an ADHD diagnosis, that all makes a lot of sense of how I was in school. When I came out, I was thinking, what am I going to do with my life? I'm not sure, but I did have like a desire to earn some money and have, there was definitely this desire to do something or have a career, but I just wasn't sure what that was. I worked in a hairdresser's randomly as front of house from like 17 up until about 20, which I loved working with people and connecting with people at the time. I then, quit that because that just didn't feel right and I wanted to earn some money. So I was like, I'm going to go and get a job in the city and do see what this corporate lifestyle is like. Well, that was just like such a big mistake. But basically there was a role that was coming up for a company called Marketform at the time in insurance, Lloyd's underwriting firm. and I interviewed with them and the guy who was interviewing me, just, we got on really well and it was kind of like my personality that kind of got me through. The girl that I was interviewing with, she, I remember her saying to me, I've got like 25 grand's worth of debt and kind of you haven't. And it was kind of like that sort of thing. And I sort of thought at that point, I didn't actually need to go to uni to get to this point. And it was kind of like, So I went on to do that. There was some validation there that you didn't have to go to university. That was your first sign that, okay, maybe, uh missing out on university is not the biggest thing in the world, is it? think there's a lot of pressure coming out of college that maybe we all should have gone to university, especially if a lot of your friends have gone there. 100 % and I think as well of just like coming out of school and not knowing what I should be doing. And I think some people go to uni and they kind of get a feel for different subjects and what they might want to do. But for me, I got this job and it felt like on paper, it was a big corporate role and I was in my twenties and I was like, I'm going to earn some money. And I had a great time like in the beginning and I was there for probably around, oh my brain, five years, let's say, working as an underwriters assistant for Lloyd's corporate company and kind of climbing the ladder slowly, but having to do the exams and not wanting to do the exams because I was just not interested in the subjects. uh It was a pathway that's drawn out for you, isn't When you get into those corporate structures, you know the next few boxes. So you've got the job, that's the first box checked. And now you need to hit those milestones to get where you want to go. And over time, you will get more money, you'll get promotions. But then it sounds like you're about to say you realize that that's not where you want it go. Exactly. felt like working in insurance, and I'm sure so many people that work in that kind of world can relate, there's a big drinking culture and I was definitely drinking my sorrows away and I liked the social aspect of it. The only way that I could explain it is it was like I was watching myself from up above and just being like, you're so unhappy and this just isn't for you. And getting myself into this toxic cycle. And also just feeling like, again, there's got to be something out there that's a bigger purpose for me. But I had no idea what that was. So many people can kind of relate to this because stuck in a job that you really hate. and then just and then but also being you know like encapsulated by the money side so you kind of stay there for that. handcuffs they call it a lot of the time. uh So you were doing something really creative for a big chunk of your life. You've gone into something that let's be honest, insurance is not a creative outlet. And you've gone on to do something as I would have explained in the introduction to this podcast. But you've gone on to do something incredibly creative. that must have been, because it's quite hard in your early twenties to be able to put your finger on what is missing. Yeah. It's very hard as well for our college system and I speak a lot about the career guidance that we get or in most instances don't get. You've got no guidance. Why would any of us know where we want to go? So I can empathize with your situation because I think I was in a very similar headspace going up to my mid-twenties too where I was like, what am I doing with my life? So that will resonate with a lot of people. Yeah, 100%. And like my dad is self-employed. He's a Tyler. My mom was working as a teacher's assistant in school as well. So not particularly like really, my mom is very creative, but not like particularly creative backgrounds to kind of like be like, could see that, I guess kind of didn't really know what to do with me maybe. And yeah, so there was definitely like this urge to do something else, but I just really wasn't sure what that was. And then what happened was I was really unhappy. I'd actually switched over and came out of the underwriting and moved into the broke inside for a firm to just try and switch it up and see if I was, because I was very good at talking and connecting with people. And then I just didn't like that. So, my friend or someone that I knew had a role that was coming up in his London salon and wanted someone to come and do the, manage the social media and also just kind of like manage the daily run-ins of it. And it was a part-time role. And for me, because I had a hairdressing background from all those years ago, like from when I was sort of 18, it felt like it was right. I'd also, at the time, I was dabbling with like a kind of fashion Instagram blog and just taking lots of pictures. I'd always been someone that was really interested in taking lots of photos. So I was kind of sharing that online. So I thought this is good. Like I use social media. Instagram at the time was just photos and I was like, let's do it. I quit my safe corporate role and my parents thought I was fucking mad. Like, what are you doing? uh And then I went, I took like a leap of faith and I went part-time uh for Kaya and was working with him three days a week. And then I got one more day working with a music, like a record company called 30 Tigers, just doing the admin. And so I took like a massive pay cut, but it felt like quite rebellious, I guess. And just a bit way more creative. And that was kind of the start of the beginning of like what? transition into what you're doing now. What was the reaction of your parents at the time make you doubt your decision? I'm assuming at some point you had a bit of self doubt, however much you wanted to get out of that world, stepping away from money, stepping away from perceived security and as we all know, through the pandemic and beyond, permanent roles are not very secure, especially in big corporates, especially when headcount cuts need to be made. But how did your parents reaction impact you? I think I was just so unhappy with what I was doing, working insurance. And I knew that at the time I was living at home, so I broke up with my ex-boyfriends, I'd moved back home, so I didn't have any rent to pay or big overheads. I was in a really privileged position to be able to take that leap. But, yeah, obviously their concerns come from a place of love, right? But they were still like... What the are you doing? You're okay. You've just left this sort of corporate role. And obviously in insurance, you can really kind of climb the ladder if you want to. But for me, like money hasn't always been the drive. Obviously money helps, but it's just not like, it's not the drive. think success comes from feeling happy and from a place of wanting to do what you want to do. That's a really lovely point and you've completely written off one of my questions from later on because I was going to ask you what your definition of success is. We'll circle back around to that. But I think it's really good and it's again quite an early age for you to come to that conclusion. And probably in part down to the fact you could see this projection of your career where it was going, a career for life and insurance. We had an incredible guy, Jonathan Newell, who set up a company called Bear Rock who's been working in insurance for his life. even he says it's once you're in, it's very hard to get out of it, especially when you start earning the money. So I think what a brave thing to do and what a liberating thing to do, but you still need to make money. You still need to pay the bills as someone in their early twenties, mid twenties, you want to be independent. want, you don't want to live with your parents forever. So these are all factors that come into that feeling of, crap, what have I done? Yeah, I think then what happened was, mean, I might have been, how old am I now? 30, coming up to 34, I might have been around 28 at this age. kind of actually later, getting towards your 30s. then, so I was doing this, kind of like coming on from this, was doing this for a year and maybe a half, I think, and then the pandemic hit. and I got made redundant. And there I was at home and I remember feeling like, like, wow, I've just taken this leap of faith. if furlough wasn't an option and if I was working in insurance, I would have been furloughed and working from home. And I think I kind of sensed like this panic as you know, lots of people did, but I remember my friend Amy actually saying to me, just try and enjoy it this time because you will never get this like time and space to breathe and really think about what you want to do going forward. You won't get that back. What happened in the pandemic, one of the things that did happen is The whole world went digital and everything went online. A few local businesses got wind that I had been made redundant and they needed help. So they kind of got in contact with me and I was managing, starting to manage social media profiles. m Do you have anything that that was going to be the route that you go down? I guess at the time you're in, however, however, um, mature you can be at the time to think this could be a good thing for me. It's still panic mode, isn't it? You still need to pay the bills. You've still gone through redundancy. Did you have a feeling that you'd end up where you've ended up at that point? Was it always on the cards? Do you think? No, not to have my own business. I think, and I've said this to so many people, when you are made redundant or you are coming from a place of you need to make money, you need to feel safe and secure, you kind of think to yourself, I've got to make something happen here. So I think what was going on in my brain at the time is like, or maybe I can sharpen up my skills on like digital marketing courses. So that's kind of what I was doing. I was doing some ads courses and just thinking to answer your question, maybe that was what I was thinking. Maybe I'll go down the social media route, but I was very fortunate that I didn't have to actually market myself at the time. A couple of businesses just got in touch with me and that's how it kind of moved into. So rather than you starting completely from scratch, there was that initial interest and then that was the genesis. So because that, I guess that idea then can grow organically, can't it? Rather than you having to sit there and force yourself to build something from a completely blank page, you've got, you can go, okay, well I've got two businesses or a handful. So what's stopping me building that and growing that? So is that where the idea of dirty work digital came from? That's exactly what happened. think then we're kind of in maybe like July time now. Got made redundant in March, around March time. We're maybe in like July time. Isn't that mad? That's five years ago. It's crazy how quickly that's passed. I can't believe I've been a business owner for five years. I feel like that's... uh We must have set up so I'm five and a half years in now so we probably set up around a similar kind of time but it's crazy to think I think that the pandemic just did a number on everyone's perception of time anyway but five years Can you believe that we sat in our houses for and we were allowed to go out for a walk half an hour. Yeah, there was a banana bread pandemic in itself, wasn't it? But it's crazy. Yeah, I have always explained those that first lockdown. However, I remember crying literally watching the TV when Boris Johnson said, right, everyone was six months into starting my business and thinking it was all over. I sitting there crying on the sofa, sitting next to my partner holding her hand. But then what that went on, that first lockdown went on to be the most peaceful time in my life. Like nothing, nothing was happening. There was no comparison with anyone because everyone was in their house or in their garden. The biggest comparison was that someone had managed to get compost or plants, plant a little allotment pot in their back garden. And there was something really beautiful about that. But yeah, to go back to your point, like it's mad to think that any of us were living like that five years ago. So first off, congratulations on five years because it's a big milestone. That's huge. Yeah, it's, um, it's, yeah, I mean, when I look back now, I don't, I think business and having your own business is really hard. Um, it's like so hard. I've had like lots, it's not been plain sailing. I've had lots of challenges. I built my business at a time as well when Instagram was changing and it was introducing video content and the concept of Reels because it was competing with platforms such as TikTok. And I just jumped on that straight away. Like I saw that kind of come in and I was like, I'm going to build my marketing from here and really launch off of video content. And it's kind of what I was really good at. And just also empowering other business owners to show up online and show personality and not be afraid of what other people think of you or your neighbors and to especially use, because the whole world went digital, to really kind of like share their story and amplify your voice using this new concept that kind of come around. So for me, I was very fortunate that, you know, Instagram was giving like massive amounts of reach back then and I'd just jumped on that. So my business kind of, I mean, I was fully booked. within like four or five months, it was mad and then kind of looking at taking other people on and but also learning how to be a business owner at the same time. was really hard, it was amazing and it was fun but also I was still learning like when I look back now from how much I've come on now to compare to back then like I think back then I'm like what was I doing? You know like the processes and different things but We learn and everyone has to start kind of like somewhere in business and stuff, But I think so. you're the kind of thing driving you to set up the business with your talent to tell stories and amplify voices and build followings and all of that harnessing what someone else has got. So how do you take all of these raw materials and leverage that to put a message out there? I guess in a nutshell, that's what you're part of, big part of what you're doing. What you're probably not renowned for is invoicing and accounts and back office processes and time management and all of these things that have to play a part, especially as get busier. Because how can you successfully run a business and not burn out without knowing all these things? If you know the answer to that, please let me know because I'm still trying to work out that now. uh It's great and I think, I can't remember the statistics, whatever percentage of businesses fail in their first year, you'll find an incredibly high percentage of businesses that make it past 12 months. And the proximity to pandemic as well, chuck that in the mix, but it sounds like you were kind of coming in to your business at the advent of something very new and exciting in Instagram or social media in general. So timing might have helped. The timing definitely helped. I think as well, was so, because video content at that time for Instagram was so new, there was nothing for me to compare myself to. And I had nothing to lose. that, like, let's talk, you know, imposter syndrome or fear of being. judged by other people, I was just like, fuck that, I'm just going to go for it. And I was trying, really wanted to empower other businesses to kind of feel the same and to just like, we've got a good thing on here. This is not going to go away. This could literally be life changing. And it did change my life really, because it gave me my business at the time. You're surfing the crest of that wave, aren't you really? Which again, imposter syndrome, well who else is there? You're getting there while everyone else is getting there, so why not immerse yourself? It's very different, but the similarities here I think with a lot of people that have embraced AI quite early on and become early adopters and then become AI influencers and now study AI training academies and they're all sat there thinking, well, no one else knows what the hell they're doing. I might as well dive in. I'm not saying that's a direct comparison, but... There are some points there where you're thinking, where's the rest of the playing field? I might as well just sprint forward. What have got to lose? Exactly. And I think like everything's moving constantly, isn't it? And you do have to, mean, social media changes on a weekly basis. And as a social media manager and strategist, I'm constantly having to look on a week by week basis at what's new and what's, you know, like what worked two years ago just doesn't work on social media anymore. So I do think it's trying to keep up with the times. And that is because of the way that we as humans consume content and the way that we're moving and evolving, right? I really want there to be a massive buzzer in this room because I almost feel like you don't want to say the word algorithm. Which we are going to go on to. But I think that was the point that you were making there is that actually it's not necessarily the algorithm that's driving consumption. It's what we consume and then that's the catalyst and then things change on the back of that. It's human behaviour that is driving the changes, not this all seeing, all powerful. algorithm, which we will speak about in a bit. Yeah, exactly that. Like, I think that the way that we consumed content even before the pandemic is so different to like how we consume it now. We used to need three seconds to grab people's attention on video content and now it's half a second. And that is not because the algorithm has changed. That is because us at home, Our attention spans are so short and we need to just be grabbing that attention like straight away. we, yes, the algorithms have changed, but we kind of have done that as well because we're evolving. Yeah, it has to be, we have to be the reason that the algorithm changes in a way, because it's not going to be doing that unless it's working on trends that it can see. it, I'm personifying bloody the algorithm, which is a dangerous place to be. But I think that's a really good point to make. And we'll go on and let you talk about that. We did some listeners questions and put a shout out. So many people, the bulk of them were like, what is the algorithm? Explain it. So we're going to have to touch upon that in a minute. I could. I do want to ask if it's okay, you talk about your ADHD diagnosis. How has that impacted how you work? Did it help? Did it hinder? Has it been beneficial to you running your business? Has it derailed you in any way? That's a huge, I've just asked millions of questions there. Cool. So I built my business five years ago. I got my ADHD diagnosis four years ago, just before a lot of, there was a lot of talk about it online and there was a lot more awareness on it. I got my ADHD diagnosis and there was this period of feeling like grief. for my younger self of like, what would I now be doing if I'd have known when I was, you know, six or seven years old? The signs were always there in school. I really struggled in school. I like heavily masked how I was feeling. It was kind of all over the place. Like a lot of procrastination, like unless it's like novelty driven, I kind of struggle. uh So I kind of, there was like this sense of grief, but also having, really don't like the term, I don't resonate with the term ADHD is a superpower so much because I actually, a lot of people do say that it can be a superpower. whilst it can be, because for me, it's allowed me to be really creative and, you know, I'm quite loud and, you know, like very personality driven and I love people. But also at the same time, I really struggle. We're not talking about just procrastinating over some things. It's like finding ways to trick my brain into finding something quite novel to be able to through the task. It's not just forgetting things. So for example, at the start of this year, I had 600 pounds worth of dark charges. because my account, I mean, it's such a long, boring story, but my card wasn't attached to my account. It was the wrong account. I couldn't find the attention span to swap that card over. And I had £600 and I had to call them up and say, I have ADHD. I really need you to help me. And they luckily did. But so for me, there has been a lot of hindrance rather than actual using it as a superpower. It's a big statement, isn't it? It's always a big label to put it, it being a superpower. And I think you, whilst it seems like, it's a real world example. Like some people might listen to that and go, well, okay, well you could have done it. Well, try and have ADHD, try and have the brain that is working in the way that your brain is working. And you tell me you could do it. So it's a really good example that probably not a lot of people would think could happen. Yeah, exactly. I mean, but in terms of business, I have the social media and the content creation feeds the like that is where the superpower and the idea I am an ideas person, people sit with me in my strategy sessions and you can tell me a problem or I can look at a social media channel and I can see exactly where we're going wrong. The ideas that come to me are just, I don't even know where they come from. So that's where the creativity comes in. It's more the systems and the admin and the processes, but that's why I work with a team and have support. Exactly. And have, you know, support with that stuff so that I can really focus on what I'm good at. Yeah, well thank you because I think it's important in season one, we had a GP that specialised in ADHD and neurodivergence and I think she was very, very honest about her struggles with ADHD and also she never described it as grief, but definitely she, the minute she got her diagnosis, she realised that all the stuff that had happened when she was growing up was explained and you, yeah, grief, you feel sorry for that little girl that was in those classes and you mentioned earlier on that you felt a little bit stupid or was made to feel stupid. And that's, that's really sad. So you would agree for that. Yeah, exactly. And I feel like the penny just dropped. And I also I felt grief, but I also felt like em everything makes sense. I fell into free. Yeah, I felt free. Yeah. That's a really lovely thing to have happened. Yeah. You could argue it's a shame that it happened later on in your life, but it's, if you believe in fate, it all happens for a reason, does it as well? But it's nice to be able to talk about that, shine a bit of a light on it. And hopefully if anyone is listening that may be on the path to diagnosis or just thinks, wait a minute, some of those traits sound familiar to me, then maybe that can start that journey for them too. Yeah. How do you, does it make you more prone to burning out? Do think everyone's prone to burning out that runs a business or what it works in general? We're trying to balance so many things, but does it make you more prone to burn out? Yeah, 100%. So I'll touch on this a little bit. Basically, I two years ago, I was building, was growing, scaling, building a team. We had like a team of four. It was amazing. But I came out of this creativity role and stepped into management role. And I was burning out becoming a manager. The stress that was on my body, I ended up getting diagnosed with Crohn's disease. So I now have a chronic illness and I spend a lot of time in hospital that year, in and out of hospital. My body doesn't like any signs of any stress. It flares up with like Crohn's disease now with my stomach and ulcers in my mouth. And I remember seeing the doctor at the time and he was like, it's stress. that flares your crones up. Having ADHD, running a business, like, know, shit that goes on in your life, you know, it's a recipe for a stress and burnout sort of thing. So I, after coming out of hospital, it didn't matter how well the business was doing and in terms of scaling, had to literally kind of, got rid of like, I scaled back on the team, on clients and went back to just working alone. And it wasn't about building a big successful business anymore. It was actually just because when you haven't got your health, you, you've got fuck all, you have nothing. And, and I didn't really appreciate how much. like the mental health side would be affecting the stress and the burnout, which then led to me having this chronic illness. Yeah, I have that now and I have to really manage my stress level. yeah. It's um, what's the saying? I mean, this is a book, isn't it? The body keeps a score. Yeah, so I've never read it. I've just heard it referenced in so many conversations, but it's completely true. I've experienced burnout and burnout that knocks you out for a fortnight, not burnout where you just feel like it works really hard. There's a physical reaction to it and there really is. We all need that reminder every now and again to put yourself first, because you are nothing, your business is nothing, your life is nothing if you don't have your health, which is so much easier said than done, isn't it? But those reminders bring that into stark contrast where you need to focus on yourself, otherwise you've got... Fuck off! literally got nothing. Like can't run a business from a hospital bed even though I was trying. Yeah, failure miserably. Do think that was a good thing to have happened? maybe, you know, turning up getting Crohn's disease is a good thing is probably not something you want to do, but to have had that reset, to really have that moment to think, what am I doing? How do I get this balance? I need to prioritise this. Was that a good thing to have happened? Yeah, because I think I was in this scaling growing boss girl, use that term, let's say boss girl era. And then I got sick and I was like, I don't, it doesn't matter what my bank account looks like or my ego feels like, or the brands that I'm working with and this and the other. I haven't got my health. So I took, I kind of like took more or less a year kind of to recover really. Like I was still working, but I was working with clients that I'd had since the beginning and retainer clients. and yeah, and just like really focusing on my. We are proud to be supported by friends of the show and previous guests, the local merchants. They stock some of finest ready-to-wear brands in the world and now offer a made-to-measure service that, speaking from personal experience, will leave you feeling like a proper celebrity. Sam and Ed are known for phenomenal customer service and are now crafting tailored pieces so good you'll start inventing reasons to wear them. Book your appointment online or in store and their beautifully designed space becomes your private dressing room. Somewhere you can collaborate with the best in the business to create something for any occasion. Their knowledge of tailoring, materials and how a suit should actually look and feel is second to none. First piece or something special, you'll be in expert hands. The customization options next level, cut, lining, lapels, buttons, button holes, vents. What even are vents? The whole experience first class. And for a limited time, Jobsworth listeners get 10 % off purchases over £200 in store or online with a code JW10, including made to measure. So if your wardrobe's due an upgrade, now's the time. Visit thelocalmerchants.co.uk for more information, T's and C's apply. Talk to me about some of the job satisfaction that you get. Do you enjoy working? Again, I would imagine your clients are a mix of local businesses and then bigger brands as well. Have you got a preference to, do you like working with smaller companies and amplifying their voices in what you're doing? So a mixture of like to give you, I work with small to medium sized businesses. I do kind of like a lot of brand work, creating content for brands and UGC like user generated content. oh you for clarifying that. oh I also do some like panel talks and talks at uni's. I've got one next week, which I'm really looking forward to. But the stuff that really gives me, I mean, I find it hard sometimes not to get emotional on like, if I'm working one to one with a small business and as a client that might be a startup or maybe it's a side hustle and they haven't got the confidence to be like, building their personal brand online or showing up. And we're in like a one-to-one power hour session or a consulting session. And they have those pin drop moments. That for me is just like job satisfaction. It's not the content that goes viral or the content that gets loads of views. Obviously I want my clients and my social media management clients to get return of investment and to see. you know, like sales and X, Y, Z, but it's really, for me, every single client I work with is completely different. There is not like a one size fits all. So the job satisfaction that I get is not going to be the same for every client as well. It's figuring out like what each person needs. And I also find like social media management and also Um, like working and like consulting one-to-one is a collaborative process. So it's me teaching as I go. And I don't always feel that people need to be working with a social media manager for like years and years and the rest of their life, you know. That's a really good point to make because I think sometimes maybe what puts people off working with social media managers or strategists or specialists in general is the feeling that once you've started, it's very hard to wean yourself off having that support. But it sounds like your approach is to educate skill and then maybe one day they transition off and go off and build this stuff themselves. So you're leaving them with that knowledge rather than being like, rely on me, pay me this every month, which is obviously nice. Yeah. You usually have like, for the social media management clients that come to see me, there's usually two types of clients. It's the clients that just have not got the time or the energy or the resources to be able to do it. And then it's the other clients that actually have kind of got the time. They're curious, but they don't know how. So that process is more like passing on the skills and the hand holding. I mean, Social media management and strategy and content creation is like, I mean, they're free roles in one really, let's be honest about it. So to try and teach someone all of those skills is kind of like near enough impossible. But I think it's giving people, those people the confidence to know that they can do it themselves. And a lot of it is about just having that confidence to show up and create content that feels good for them. Yeah, that's great. And I think maybe that ties into authenticity, which I think is such a big part of what people buy into when they see brands online. Now, this is my issue with AI generated content. I'll just, I'll just add this in there. I think it's depersonalizing what so many brands are putting out in whatever guys, whether it's written, whether it's video, whether it's pictures, photos that have gone through an AI filter. I just think that's. People don't crave that. People are now craving the human interaction, which is why authenticity needs to be built into the brand, in my opinion. Exactly. By the way, AI is definitely a helpful tool to be able to use. I like to use AI to bounce off of ideas with social media management clients and to do a little bit of thinking. I sometimes scroll on social media and I can see so clearly when a caption has just been pulled from AI and I don't read it because it's not come from a human being, it's come from a robot and it's, again, it doesn't feel authentic. I would much rather a client sit there and I have a lot of clients also that say to me, I don't know how to write captions, I don't know how to articulate myself, I don't know what to say, but I'd rather them tell a story that's maybe shorter, that feels more connected because it's come from their voice and their experience rather than using AI to generate a caption that... has come from a robot. Yes, allow it to do the thinking for you. Ideation and you know, like we said in the beginning, we need to be using these tools of ways we're going to be get, we will get left behind. So I think it's important to use either your content or your captions and your voice to connect your audience. My thing on social media, and especially when I was creating video content, was always to be your most authentic self. Use your quirks or find your unique perspective, whatever it's your opinions, and really lean into it and be unapologetically you. If you look back at some of my first content, it's wild and it's funny and it's kind of like... playing around and like really also just experimenting. think people get too far into their heads on what content should feel like and it should feel perfect. you only, I've got an unpopular opinion about this. Yes, content needs to be of a certain quality to put out there, but you only get good at creating content by... doing a lot of it and experimenting and testing and coming from a place of, don't, yes, I care how this is gonna land, but this is a process for me to get better at creating and getting that mindset of like having the confidence to show up and create more, know? Bring your personality into it or, you know, set up a camera and just show the behind the scenes and try and make it feel fun rather than a chore. The process itself of creation should be if you can derive joy from it or fun, then you're halfway there, aren't you? Yeah. This is a nice way then to transition into our listeners questions. Because you've started to give some really interesting, useful advice already. But we did put a shout out on Instagram and had some questions back. So if you'll indulge me, I'm going to ask some listener questions. So we've got these listeners questions. We're going to start and go through. I am going to just go straight into the first one. what you're going to say. So this question is kind of like a mashup of a load of questions we got on the algorithm. And I'm reading off my pad for this. What is the algorithm and how does it work? Can you even answer that question? Yeah, it's a big question and em I'm going to try and simplify it as much as I possibly can. First of all, what I want to say is let's talk predominantly about Instagram here because that's what I specialize in. Instagram is a business and Instagram's goal is to keep you on the app. So it's not creating big scary algorithms that's punishing people. as such. Because that's phrase that's used a lot. The algorithm is punishing me. Finished by the algorithm, okay. It might feel like that, but that's not kind of the goal. em Secondly, there's not one algorithm. There are many algorithms. There's, yeah, there's not the big scary algorithm, angry algorithm. You have an algorithm for stories. You have an algorithm for feed posts. You have an algorithm for rules. So there's a few different algorithms and they work in different ways. I'm gonna simplify the way that the feed posts work. Okay, you take a piece of content and you post it to your feed. And what happens is that gets pushed out to 10 % of your audience. for let's say it's a photo, for example, if that audience like it, share it to their friends, they might comment on it and they might save it for later. The algorithm ranks it as good content. So what it then does is pushes it out to more people. You get more reach. In doing that, the algorithm, I'm using these words, is trying to understand what your content is. So let's just say I'm a food blogger and I create food recipes. Instagram is becoming more and more like a search engine. Like Google, can actually, if you search on Google for like, let's say food recipes, your Instagram content comes up now. So it is becoming more and more like a search engine. So it's really important nowadays that we're using searchable words for people to be able to find us. So I might be doing a voiceover and be saying, hi, my name's Abby. I'm a food blogger. I am... create ramen recipes, my friends will laugh that I've got ramen in this, but I create ramen recipes. So what that will do is the algorithm will rank this to other people that have shared interests in let's say ramen recipes. And it will then, if it's been, if it's gone through the ranks as good content, let's say, it will get onto the explore page and be pushed out to more people. What we want to be focusing on without getting into the nitty gritty is social media is a social platform. It's to create relationships. We want people to enjoy our content. The content that we put out there, especially if you're a business, you want to be thinking about, it's not actually about you or your business. It's what do my audience want to see? What will they like? What will they share to their friends? What will they comment on and what will they enjoy? So that's kind of like the way that the algorithm works. there's, I mean, there's also an algorithm for let's say, reels. And the way that that works is on likes and watch time and say, and how many like the way that we send to our friends. And that's changed quite recently because the way that we're consuming content is different. And I want to ask you a question. When you're scrolling on social media, and I'll answer this as well, when are you usually scrolling? Like what sort of times, like when do Well, my phone usage at the time, at this moment in time is awful, Abby. But I would say in the morning and in the evening is when I'm usually doing it or lunchtime, usually anytime sat down. Yeah. Okay. And then you, so for me, when I'm scrolling and I've actually really observed my behaviour over the last few months. And also like spoke to friends about this. For me, I'm scrolling sometimes when there's something on TV. So I'm actually not even really consuming the content properly. That's why you should always have captions on videos. em It might be that I'm scrolling while I'm making food. So it's kind of like, what we're doing is we're consuming content, but are we actually consuming the content properly? Are we actually taking it in or are we just scrolling for the sake of scrolling? So that comes onto what I'm saying about when we're posting content, I think I want people to be thinking, would I watch this piece of content? Would I engage with it myself? And sometimes I actually watch content and consume content and I'll really enjoy something. I might laugh. I'll scroll past it and I think, I didn't even engage with that piece of content and I need to actually actively go back and do that. So this is why the algorithm for let's say Reels Now has changed and it's going more on watch time and also Lots of people are sharing funny memes to their friends or sending this to say, I sent one to my partner recently, I want to go to here in Mallorca, you know, like and sharing content. And that's how the hour of them for will deem that as good content. Yeah, because again, the mindset I get into, it is really complicated. And thank you, because we could do, I'm sure we could do a whole episode on the algorithm alone. And then that is really free consulting for anyone that's listening. But I was thinking about this other day, because I get caught in a trap of posting about this podcast. And I know producer Tom does as well. And I look at the likes and engagement, I think that's shit. you get disheartened. And then I think I've scrolled on Instagram today and I've not liked anything, but I know I laughed at that. I know I thought that's a good bit of content, but I didn't comment. I didn't like, I didn't engage. So there are people viewing it, but like you say, if you're only being judged on how many people actually click that little heart button, that's probably not fair. So doing it on watch time and how many people are sending it on is a better way of doing it. But it's hard not to get disheartened when you're not seeing a light. 100%, but this is the vanity metrics, right? And that's when the vanity metrics come into it. And I think when you start getting visible and showing up and like marketing your business on social media, it's really important not to get sucked into that. my, you know, like the content that I put out there, most of the time, the stuff when I'm actually just marketing myself, it doesn't. necessarily get great engagement, but I will get like interest from it and you know. get one message from someone saying I watched your video and I would love to work with you, that's a much better thing than getting a hundred likes or getting thousands of views. You've got a piece of work from it. And that's, guess you have to be able to define what you're doing it for in the first place. So if you are trying to generate business and your videos are getting bugger all engagement, but you're getting a DM saying, I want to work with you. A client win is a much better metric than a like. Exactly. But I do think as well, there again, it comes back to, I've noticed two types of businesses. A lot of people do do it for, or like they want to work with a social media manager for the vanity metrics. And then you have the other side of people that want leads, sales, and it's quite, it's kind of just over the five years. That's what I've really noticed. Not everyone, but lots of people. So I think it's important to really sit and think to yourself like, what do I? like what do I want this for? Obviously engagement is great. Everyone wants it, right? It's nice to see videos doing well and videos having likes and XYZ, but that doesn't always pay the bills. Yeah, if that's what you're looking to have done for it. Yeah. So try not to overthink it too much and just push, try and push through that I would always say. Cause it will stop you in the end, right? If you get caught up in this, algorithm is trying to punish me. You'll just give up. And a big battle. One of the biggest thing is consistency. Actually turning up every day and doing it, which in itself is tough if you're not getting the engagement that you want. Okay. going to, I will, we've got a few of these to get through conscious. I want to try and pick some ones that maybe I'm selfish. Now I want to know, do you have to post every day to build a following? oh Everyone asked me this question and my question back to you would be what feels sustainable without burning out? That's a good question to ask. Can you you do this for a living? because I, also if you're going to be creating say five, six pieces of content per week, but it's shit content, then it's, it's, you, you really need to sit down. This is what I want to say to you. Sit down with your content and be thinking what's the wire behind this content? What do I want people to think or feel or what action do I want them to take from this? So it's a bit more like strategic, what's the goal behind it? Because if you're just putting content out there for content sake, it's not gonna do well. And then you have people coming, I have people coming to me saying I'm shadow banned and that's just not even a thing. uh Yeah, I think a big message I see again on Instagram of people saying you're posting every day is not a social media strategy. You've got to sit down and think about your So just sit down and think about like what feels sustainable without burning out and what feels good. If that's three times per week, amazing. And you can show up on stories, eh say every day or every other day and that feels good, then do that. If you're going through a big growth phase and you really want to be hammering content out, then yeah, like five times per week to grow. But it's not necessary in the beginning to get the ball rolling. Okay, thank you. Talking about that then, you mentioned stories every day. If you could only share reals, or stories, what would you pick? Again, like what feels good. Stories are great for nurturing super fans. So the people that watch your stories are like your hot leads, people that are really interested in what you're doing. I've also been testing stories recently, so I've got a good tip. I've really noticed that sharing one static post Um, with maybe like an engagement button on it, like a poll or something, and then nothing else for the rest of the day is really spiking story views at the moment, which is quite unusual, but I've been testing it recently. Um, so stories are really good for selling, nurturing for you. would be, um, podcasts is coming out next week, your questions, what do you want to do on it? Reels, um, reels are great for, again, like BTS, behind the scenes of business and brand, giving value, conveying a message. You can obviously, you can use them up to three minutes long, I would say shorter. And then your posts, carousels and posts are just kind of like your photo dumps. And again, graphic posts adding value. each serves a different purpose. And again, I would be thinking about what is the goal, what do I want to achieve from this piece of content? Am I trying to get people to sign up to my newsletter? Am I trying to get people to watch my podcast episode? Am I trying to get people to buy XYZ? So just be thinking about that and how am I going to best get that message across through that? Going back to what is your why again, isn't it? What are you actually trying to achieve? Thinking, that's, know, it's not the algorithm, it's just think about the content that you're putting out there, yeah. Okay, what's one platform that's underutilized when it comes to building personal brand? So I know you specialize in Instagram, but I think Instagram has a hell of a lot of focus. And we know that's a good place to build a personal brand or build a brand for your business. Is there one platform that you think is being underutilized that maybe like threads as an example is something, I don't know if it's flash in the pan, I don't use it anymore. I started in the first week and then completely went, but is there any one that you think people should be getting on too early? Threads is really good for, again, similar to stories, just kind of like speaking about thoughts, raw, unfiltered side of your business and brand. oh One I do want to mention, and hands up, I really need to jump on this as well, LinkedIn is really good for building personal brand. I haven't done it myself, I've dabbled. I've been doing workshops on... LinkedIn, actually me going back and learning about LinkedIn a bit more recently. But LinkedIn is supposed to be really good for building personal brand. It's not the same as what it used to be. And I think a lot of people shy away from LinkedIn because it feels corporate. And then the one I would just say for, again, depending on what your business is, what your personality type is, TikTok. Yeah, like it's just TikTok algorithm, endless opportunity. Yeah. It's completely different to Instagram. You post a video, it doesn't go out to your audience. It goes out to like infinite reach as long as the watch time is good. If you are a good storyteller and you are not on TikTok, then you are missing a fucking trick. Get on there right now. Especially like this. series, like uh content at the moment is doing really like series content is doing really well. like series one, come back first, part two, come back. A cliffhanger, bring people back, return into your content. That's interesting. I mean, if you didn't say LinkedIn, I was going to say LinkedIn because I have built a brand over time. I've just chipped away at that platform. Like 13 years I've been working in recruitment. I've been on LinkedIn from day one. It's how I run my business. I wouldn't have a business without it. But I think it's so underutilized, both personal brand, but also companies are just again, missing a trick because it this perception is that it is corporate and it's not anymore. You can go on there and be authentic and people are buying into that. Again, even more so since the advent of AI and all this vanilla shit that's filling news feeds now. It's very easy to stand out if you're just willing to be a bit original. And more human as well. I think this is what people miss in from social media content, that ability to be vulnerable and connect and share stories. think that's key on social media at the moment. Okay. All right, just going on that then, I think you've already answered it. The last listener question I'm going to ask you is should you channel your efforts into one social media platform or spread your bets? I think I know where you're going to... Okay, again, it's about what feels good without burning out. and I would be thinking about like, where's my audience? Like, where are they? Where are they hanging out? And one thing I would say is that, and something I've been doing recently as well is like building an audience outside of social media that you own. Instagram, all these social media platforms are rented space. When Instagram goes down, like you haven't got anywhere to market your business. So be building, yes, on social media, but be building your like email marketing. And so you actually own an audience as well. So that's just kind of like a side note. But I would say to the person that asked that question, for them to be thinking about where are my audience? What age range are they? where do they hang out and focus there first. then kind of like once you've kind of nailed that platform really well, you don't have to reinvent the wheel on a different platform, repurpose your content. Like people don't do that, however, people feel like they have to come up with new ideas all the time. I, on like a two monthly basis, I will go back and look at where a client's content has done really well. and I will look at the captions and I will recycle that message and just repeat that same thing and that same video or that same piece of content will do really well. We don't have to reinvent the wheel all the time. And again, it's going back to that attention span of like people won't remember what you said with the video that you did last week. So repost it or redo it in a different way. Like, and I think that... takes away that feeling of like burning out on social media. really want people like social media, yes, can have like a bad and negative kind of connotation to it, but it can be really used for the good and to connect people and I've seen big people's businesses and also my life change overnight from it, but just finding like that healthy relationship with it. Yeah, that's such a good point. And as you say, you're a shining example of a situation where it has changed your life and it is a good thing. I did see as well, because I started following you on Instagram, that you also have a detox every now and again, which is get out, get rid of your phone. And that's needed, isn't it? Just having those times where you're in a, right, that's gone in a box and I'm not looking at it for a while. Because creativity and ideas and motivation does not come from scrolling on your phone. You cannot be looking for inspiration in the same places like where you're consuming from. Go out and read a book, listen to a podcast, listen to your podcast. Go out and stay in, know, we stayed in a cabin at the weekend, no phone. I felt so refreshed coming back to work this week and feeling energized. Same goes with like imposter syndrome creeping in when you're creating content, like go and take a walk outside for half hour and get off your phone. Yeah, that's a good message. I think that's great. It's nice to hear someone that specializes in social media. Thank you Thank you everybody. Right, we're going to play a game. This is called trend or trash. And I hope I'm going to explain this in the right way. Right, so I'm going to throw some social media trends your way and I want your honest verdict. And I don't know if these are good examples or not. Basically, you're going to say trend or trash with a little bit of reasoning why, if that's okay, if I give you an option. This all makes sense to me. Do you remember the Harlem Shake? Yeah. There's a dance. Yeah. Was there something like? It was something like the music kicked in, so it was everyone, was all calm. There's a great dance by the way, you can see you used to be a dancer. We need to push these chairs out of the way. So Harlem Shake was where everyone, I think the music kicked in and then everyone went mad. Like throwing chairs around, it cut from one scene to another one. This has got to be trash because you don't really remember. trash i don't remember it trash i remember the dance but yeah trash i don't remember it It needs to go like if it's gone out of your mind you'd never remember it the ice bucket challenge remember that Oh, let's say trend. Funny, we all did it, I did it. But I actually saw someone doing it recently and I was like, surely that's not coming back around because if that is coming back around, that's trash. It was trash. now okay trash modern day the mannequin challenge but you're a great filter for this because i'm coming up with ones that mix of google and some of the ones that i tick tock dances in general You're gonna have to get off the fence. trash. It's just not for me. But also if people want to dance on TikTok, if you want to do this, you want to do that and it makes you feel good, you do it. Why not? Yeah, trash. You'll get me doing the mimicky other stuff that people don't like doing. But yeah, can't, do the going to help you with this game and reframe it like if you were giving this advice to a client or customer building a brand, you're probably not going to tell them to do a TikTok. Okay. Colour coded Instagram feeds. color coded. We're talking about an aesthetic that looks a very certain way. Okay, let's go trend and I'll explain myself. Yes, I feel like a feed needs to be cohesive and feel good and look nice. But if you get to the point where you're like, it's got to be blue this day, then a picture and my God, I haven't got something else that's blue so I can't post now and then you don't post, then it's trash. So if you're getting in your head about the aesthetics, trash it. a loaded question because if you scroll far enough back on our Instagram feed, it was color coded. It's good to know. AI influencers. So we're talking about AI avatars that are promoting messages. Trash. personally don't like it. Threads. We talked about threads. It's a newer platform trend or trash. Do you think it's going to... Trend. The return of Facebook groups. because I feel like Facebook is going to have a comeback. I've also been reading recently that Mark Zuckerberg is going to invest a lot of money into Facebook and kind of it might be coming back. I feel like, yeah, exactly. I feel like Facebook groups, again, is a place for people to connect and connect with other people. Can't be a bad thing. Using trending audio when it makes absolutely no sense to what you're actually sharing. Okay. That's good. We align on that one and then get ready with me posts. Trend. You like these ones? Yeah. Okay. That's not loaded whatsoever. I watch... I mean, I did put a face. There's a sign there. I think I'm just jealous. Get rid of me, post. No one would care, but I'm happy to do it. Thank you so much for indulging me on that. That was the end. So you did really well. loved it was just nice to run that through as a filter. You're the best person to ask. We have a closing tradition on the podcast. So I'm going to get my phone out for this. So the closing traditional podcast is a question from my mum. What's your mom say? Lisa. So she started asking questions on the podcast from not the first episode because the first episode was my mum. So from then on she sends a voice note, WhatsApp voice note with a question for the guest. I do give her a rundown of who's coming on. It's a voice note. So she does, she leaves out a voice note. think she did call you Ali the first time that we said, but this one she's got it right. Hi, Abby. How would you protect yourself? when posting on platforms such as Instagram, from having your intellectual property rights stolen, for instance, if you're putting out new ideas or designs. Thank you. didn't know where that was going when she said protect yourself, but I think that ended like quite a profound question. It was useful. Once you put something on the internet, you can't protect it from being stolen or from other people being influenced by your ideas, right? But if you see someone that's being influenced by you and it's quite obvious that there's not really much I feel that you can do. That's a really hard question that's got me thinking. And actually I'm like, maybe I should go back and speak to my... Is it well I guess is it is it basically saying at least with what we know about it at the moment if you're choosing to share something on social media you were essentially giving up the right it's out there in the world isn't it for someone to use and again talking about AI you've got that data scraping going on now Yeah, one thing I have just thought of actually, as we've been speaking about this, you cannot is against, this is something that will get you shadow banned and will get reduced ranking is if you take someone else's content. So let's say I've had this before with someone actually taking my videos and then reposting them onto their platforms without crediting me or without asking me that is against. Instagram's guidelines and therefore you will get like ranked lower and things like that. Shadow band on the platform rank lower on the platform, but I guess there's still again No legal recourse for that to happen is there unless you're a massive brand that's willing to take measures to stop that happening Mums not bless her. That's not offensive it is important, to think one of the things, one of the first things I did when I was building like my brand and marketing is I worked with an amazing lady called Lucy Legal online. She has a lot, shares a lot about social media, cans and cans and do's and don'ts. And obviously I have to have contracts that protect me for this type of thing. So maybe it would be worth her. getting in touch but That's a really, it's a really useful answer. question that I will probably look into a little bit more myself. This is what, like, mum will throw a curve ball every now and again that stunk someone. But I think it's an interesting point that when you're sharing the things that you're creating, Instagram or whatever platform you're posting on actually ends up having, as you said, it's rented space. So there's a degree of ownership that you lose the minute you put it out into the public domain. So uh that's an interesting one. Well done mum. Well, Abby, it has been an absolute pleasure. You've been amazing and you've given up so much. Free advice, I've heard and seen at the Conomire Tom furiously writing notes as we go for our own channels. But it's just been so insightful and I think your journey to get where you needed to be from the sound of it and where you've ended up is really inspiring and it will be something that resonates with lot of people. So thank you so much. Yeah, thank you. Thanks for having me on. Last thing I just want to say is if you are building a side hustle or you've got business that you're building and you're feeling like that insecurity, just remember that other people's opinions do not pay your bills and you've got nothing to lose. If you're thinking about what your neighbor or your old school friend might think of you for putting videos online, like just fuck them, it's that if they are saying anything about you, it's their insecurities that they're just projecting onto you and just go forward and do your thing. Because social media really can change lives, as we said. How do we drop the mic? was so good. Well done Abby. That was brilliant. No, you're absolutely welcome. It was amazing. Right. think we're done. That was so good.

People on this episode

Head Shot

John Hawker

Host