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JobsWorth - Tobias Smith

• John Hawker

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On this week’s episode of JobsWorth I’m joined by Essex based Musician Tobias (Toby) Smith. 

What does it take to turn something most people view as a hobby into a fully fledged career?

Well, in Toby’s case, it involved two particularly inspiring family members, a heady mix of talent and hard work and a focus on what matters…doing something you love. 

This was easily one of my favourite episodes to date. Toby’s outlook on life is aspirational and for someone who hasn’t yet turned 30, the ability he’s developed to not sweat the small stuff is something everyone can learn from. 

Whether you’re a musician (budding or otherwise), on the fence about turning your passion into a career or just simply want to hear from someone who views the world through a lens of positivity and optimism (I know right) then this episode has something for you.  

Stick around till the end for a little taste of what Toby can do with a guitar and some random song requests from the crew. You won’t want to miss it. 

Please enjoy…Tobias Smith. 

#jobsworth #podcast #career #worklife #storiesthatinspirechange

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Contact the show on hello@jobs-worth.com

Hello and welcome back to Jobsworth. This week's guest is Tobias Smith, who is a musician from Leoncy in Essex. And I think I'm going to say it, this was one of my favourite conversations we've had to date. Tobias or Toby as he's known to his friends and I now classify myself as one of Toby's friends, whether he likes it or not. He just has this energy about him. The minute he walked into the room down at the hatch where we record, I think I fell in love with him a little bit. He's just so positive and optimistic and full of this, yeah, energy is the right word to use, this aura about him that you warm to him completely. And when you hear him talk about what he does for a living, the way he feels about getting to play music, the gratitude that he has around what he gets to do every day of the week and make money from, it really I think it's going to force you to reflect on whether you're doing the right thing for your career. He is, I think, wise beyond his years and it was just a real honour to get to speak to someone with his level of talent and we do get to showcase that as part of this episode too. And yeah, and he's the first person to ask if he could bring a guest. along. So that got a bit meta. So we had a guest and then they had a guest. So it was his lovely other half, Ashley, that watched the episode get recorded and that was a real pleasure. And yeah, she got involved in the last part of the episode too. So you're going to have to watch this one or listen, wherever you listen to the podcast. But I would advise if you can get on YouTube and give this one a watch, then do. If you're seeing me do this intro, you're already watching on YouTube. So well done. I really hope you enjoy it. always, if you've got any feedback for us, get involved in the comments. And next week, we will be throwing a little bit of a curve ball episode out on Wednesday as one of our Jobsworth Express episodes lands. But stay tuned for that one and I'll catch up with you soon. Right. We're going to start with the opening question. We're going straight in. Straight in. the opening question, if you've listened to a couple of the episodes already, is always the same. When you were younger, what did you want to be when you grew up? That, I could have put money on that being the case. Okay. From what age do you have that memory? From my earliest memory possible. My dad and my granddad are both musicians. So I've grown up going to my granddad's gigs. He was in a band called the Rubettes, which were big in the 70s. A lot of grandparents would probably know of them on top of the pops and that. And my dad. So I used to go to my dad's gigs. I've got pictures of me on stage with a little plastic guitar and I must have been two or three. I forced to do it basically, yeah, there was nothing else I could do. I was going to ask you, I was going to go on to ask about inspiration around you. And that's, I think a lot of people that do go into music have people have direct influences in their life. Did you have influences as you got older, other musicians that kept that kind of hunger, that desire going? I obviously, my dad and my granddad was my first memory of it. And then my dad done a stint in Lanzarote, gigging. Six weeks when I must've been about seven, maybe seven or eight. And me and my mom went out there for a couple of weeks to see him. And there was loads of bands all sharing this like accommodation basics. My dad must've been, he was 22 when he had me. So he must've been like 28, 27. So still quite young. And he was out there. And I loved it. And I was up late in the bars with everyone and you know that sort of sleep on the chairs in the the pubs and things like that. Yeah. Seeing all these other musicians and just the life they had playing on stage, everyone loving it. was like, that's what I'm going to do. Yeah. I've got one brother has no musical interest whatsoever. What would you say is the difference? Because I would have loved to have learned an instrument. I think a lot of it is I didn't have any follow through. So I'd have instruments when I was younger. I played the cello. I was actually in an orchestra, but I couldn't play it. At that age, you could just get away with... I'm big enough to hold it. But I think there's a difference between the people that stick it out and the people that don't, and then the people with an innate talent too. So without outing your brother too much, is the talent there, but maybe that... No, it is there. he, I mean, he can, he's got rhythm. He can clap to a song or like perfect timing. He can sing a song and be perfect on key. He just has zero interest for it. think also when I was younger, was more, my dad's gigs were more like local things that I could go to a lot of the time. Whereas when my brother's 10 years younger than me, there's a 10 year age gap. And then when he was born, My dad was in a lot more corporate gigs and bigger gigs that no one, not as successful, no one can go to. So yeah, I was around it a lot more than he was, I think. Yeah, okay. That's a fair point. And that 10 year age gap is a bit of a gulf as well, especially when you're younger. Do you remember your first ever gig? Go on, tell me about that. I mean, it depends what you classify as a gig. So like I've got up and sung in assembly at school as a kid, like singing Christmas songs, my teacher found out I could play guitar and things. But first ever gig was at, it used to be called Sands, where, next to Adventure Island. Yeah. Yeah. It used to be, it was now Fish and Chip shop, I think, but it used to be quite a nice restaurant in there. I used to work there when I was younger. So they were like, you can come and do a gig if you want. I didn't get paid anything. was like my first experience. Just an opportunity to get on a stage. It was an area, a little store with my guitar, but was like a full, I was 16, it was a full restaurant and I was like, this is a bit crazy. Yeah. Yeah. Loved it. And then Were nerves a big thing for you at 16? Or did you just... not really. used to get on stage with my dad and my granddad and they'd give me a mic that wasn't plugged in and I'd be running around on the stage pretending I'm singing and things like that. I'd never was just this intrinsic thing in you. was there. That's such a fortunate thing, isn't it? Especially in your line of work. Because there are people that have to overcome state, like really severe state. They've got a talent and they know they need to put that out into the world, but they have got severe stage fright to the point where it's nearly debilitating. But if you've not got that affliction, then you're one step ahead already, aren't you? What I've realized is people don't actually care. What I've realized by that, so like I care so much more than what anyone else thinks. For example, and I've learned that just through the amount of gigs I've done. But if I play a wrong note on the guitar or sing a wrong word or something in my head, whilst I'm singing it, I'm like, my God, my God, my God. You look around, no one cares. As long as they know the tune of the song and they're singing along, you know what I mean? When I realized that it doesn't actually really matter, Yeah, no nerves at all. That's a really powerful thing to realise at such a young age. You've said that you've got that built into you already and it's kind of immersion training in a way when you're younger getting on stage and you learn to be fearless, I guess you could describe it as. But yeah, that's a really powerful mindset to have at a young age. Bring me up to the point where you are deciding to do this for a living and making money out of it. What's the gap? What's the process? Not you start. Me, I started in like little bars and restaurants and I'd have a little regular slot there at Sands. It might be once every six weeks or something like that and then start to get paid. And then you find out, you meet other musicians just through gigging there, other singers that sing there and then they say, can you do this gig? And then it's a bit word of mouth. But I've always worked alongside gigging. I used to work up in London when I was 18. I was a broker or tried to be a broker and, still Monday to Friday in a suit in London and then come home Friday, Saturday, Sunday gigging. It's really the last few years is when, when really, when you now in the band and that's taken off, it's that's where it's like, okay, now this is my full time thing. Okay, because I'm coming at this from a uh place of ignorance in that I don't know much about your back story. So you're now doing this full time. assumption. Yeah, I'm a musician full-time. Okay. What did your colleagues at work think of what you were doing as a part-time job? So you're in this corporate world. would assume the trajectory there could be that you could earn really good money doing it. And then you're going off at the weekends and doing something. You are very clearly, you can see it's coming, it's exuding from you that you are passionate about what you do. You genuinely love what you do. So what was the feeling and the vibe from the... people that you're working with that could have maybe seen something in you to carry on down the corporate world. Your managers may have been thinking, come on Toby, this is a uh quote proper job. Did you get that feeling or were they very supportive? I think because it wasn't, maybe when I was 18, when I started in London, it wasn't as big as what it is now. but I think they were, a lot of people see musicians as like, that's just a, that's a fun little hobby. Do know what I mean? They don't see it as like something serious or something you could potentially make my career. Yeah. Well, I mean, I've watched my granddad and my dad both make their whole careers live in nice house. You know what I mean? And, provide just through solely music. So I know it can be done, but Yeah, I think a lot of people just say, you're pub singer on the weekend. You know what mean? It wasn't really questioned because I don't think they thought it was going to uh anywhere. And that's the perception I think a lot of people have. As you say, you've grown up immersed around people that have made it and they've made good careers and good livings and provided for their family. If you didn't have that, do you think it would have been harder for you to stick it out? Maybe, then I look at my best friends who are musicians and none of them have a musical family and they're in the same position as me. I think it's to do the people around me as well. Like my friends have helped me stick it out and I had great fun doing it. And if I didn't enjoy it, I would have stopped it. Hence why I quit the job in London. Cause I was like, isn't for me. What brought you to that point? If we talk about, lot of the podcasts talks about people transitioning from one career into another or side hustles, you know, then making that their full-time job. Talk to me a little bit, nearer to time when you decided, I'm chucking this in and going all in on this. What happened? What was your mindset like? And were you scared when you ended up doing that? Was there any fit? I get the impression you weren't. Well, I was actually quite excited about doing it. That's what it should be. I think there's some people that are made for corporate life who are great at it. I wasn't one of them. I just wasn't. I'd get maybe a bit bored easily or didn't want to be sat in an office or, but there's some people who do it amazingly. They can have great careers and earn great money. And I've got friends who are in that corporate life and love it. yeah, for me was, the more I was gigging and then Obviously the more you gig in venues, you might get recommendations and then someone sees you at a gig and then you start to get your private work. That's where the more private work, that's when it's like, okay, this could be, I'm now starting to maybe earn close to or a bit more than my monthly pay for my work. But yeah, if anything, I was kind of waiting for the few more gigs to come through so I can just dive into it full time. So that was part of your motivation to try and get the work to equate to what you needed to financially. Did you have it without asking what that was? Did you have a clear goal in mind financially of what you needed to be making to make the move or was it more of a heart decision? it's more of a heart decision. It's more of, okay, I know I'm set for, I'll make sure I'm set for a good few months, even a year in advance. Because especially people like wedding bookings, you get booked two, three years in advance. I knew that I'd have them locked in. So was like, I've got them. So I'm not going to have nothing, if you know what I mean. So it's quite easy to make that jump because you've got things booked in for the future. Yeah. It's really refreshing to hear that. You've very clearly not got a lot of fear within you about making these things. I think that's the flip side of it. Can you tell me about a time where it has been a bad thing? Yeah. When maybe you've rushed into something, excited about the prospects and you've made a decision and there's been no hesitance. yeah, that's the story of my life. is, yeah. Just a very impulsive person. Sometimes it works out, sometimes it doesn't. I used to drive around in my little banged up golf with all my music equipment in it and then I was like one day, I want a van, I need a van. My dad was like, you don't need a van yet. wait, you maybe need one later down. Exactly. And I was like, no, I'm going to do it. And I went to to half of the country, found this van that I love, brought it home. Now I love it. And it's, it's been brilliant since I bought it. But I mean, that could, it was a lot of money and I signed up to a finance thing and I was like, I'm to do this. I committed to it. Yeah. But my parents know that about me. Like I bought a new guitar today. I wasn't, I went to look at new guitars cause I needed one anyway. Yeah. tool of your trade. A billboard going by a new drill, you know what I mean? but like my dad to me this morning was like, cause I always ask for his advice and things like that when it's to do with music stuff. And he was like, are you just going to have a look? went, yeah, I'm just going to have a look. So he went, no, you're not, you're going to buy one. went, maybe not. And I've bought one. Yeah, nice. Okay. Like you say, think, unless there's been a time where that's really heavily backfired. I think I've been quite lucky. There probably will be a time in the future, at the minute, fingers crossed. it and it motivates you and it drives you. think there's a lot to be said for going with your heart and going with your gut and leaning into that. think I speak to a lot of people that are still waiting to make a decision because they overthink. And the biggest bit of advice we hear on the podcast when I ask about what's the advice you'd give to anyone on the fence is you just have to do it. And it sounds like the most cliche bit of advice and the easiest thing for people to say, but that's all it boils down to is you have to do it. because it's better to regret having tried than not. I was quite lucky. obviously got very supportive parents and at the time I was living at home and could rely on them and they weren't pushy like you need to get a job. I think because of my dad's job, it was very much like if this is what you want to do, I can help you go the right way because I've done it. a very nurturing environment to want to pursue that career in. Would there have been a time, do you think, let's say, I don't know, you're a certain number of years into being a broker and you're still doing part-time gigs, you're still doing music part-time, would you have got to a point where you had to make the decision, now I need to get head down and get into this corporate life? If I, it depends because if I'm honest, I've always wanted to do music. I've got, I was 18 and again, impulsive. was like, I'm going to work in the city. And my mom was like, I know someone who went to school with who works nepotism at its finest. messaged him on Facebook and was like, I want to start up in the city. What can I do? And he was like, I like your initiative. Come down for a chat. And then they were like, Oh, we'll get you in for like, I done three months, I think no pay, but they covered my travel and lunch every day. again, that's just me being so impulsive. And I was like, I never wanted to be a broker, but one day I was like, no, I to be a broker. And I just went for it and tried it. So I think it was more about waiting for the music to take over. Nice. Okay. So it really was that a bit of a stopgap, bit of a make some money, have the experience, but music was always your North Star that you were heading towards. Yeah, it always has been. What a lovely thing to hear that you've got that driver in front of you. And I've made the point before, there's a very small percentage of people that I speak to and that I've known of in 13 years of working in recruitment, which is my day job, that knew what they wanted to do when they were younger. So to have had that. do feel quite lucky that I've got that. It's a really fortunate thing. I think people find what they want to do later in life and that's absolutely fine. But if you know from day dot that that's where you're heading, it's quite liberating. You just know where you're going. So that's really nice to hear. What's the best part of being a working musician now? So you're it full time. How long have you been doing it full time now? For completely full time, probably about, I'd say four years, maybe four, five years. There's loads of good parts. It depends really. can give me the top three so whatever don't limit yourself, but what is this? Being in the band, I love because we are best friends. We were best mates before we started the band. So really, we always say it to each other. Like we feel so lucky that we'll go and play someone's wedding, which is like the biggest day of people's life. And they love it. But to us, we're like, I'm just on a stage playing with my mates. Like that's, I love that. That is what my work is, going and playing with my mates really. For anyone that doesn't know, just to jump in, we're talking about the Broadway back. Talk about how you formed. your best friend. oh Go for that if that's okay. Myself and Matt, who's the drummer in the band, were in a other band before. And this is while I was still working and this was Carnage. was, we got a phone call from a guy that I know who used to book me for pubs. And he was like, I'm putting together a band. Have you ever played bass before? And I was like, no, but I play guitar. I'm sure it'd be fine. It's completely different. It's like, it's a complete different instrument. But again, I just dived into it. was like, I'll do that. And then later, yeah. And then He said, I've pulled together some guys, we're going to start a band and we all met at a rehearsal studio for the first time. And that's where I met Matt, the drummer, who's my age. And there was two other members and it was great. And we got on and it was like, oh, this is cool. I'd never done anything like that. I've always been like a solo acoustic singer. So to be in that, like with other musicians, was like, oh, this is cool. And then we just... doing the pubs relentlessly, like all the local pubs in Lee, Broadway pub, 10 Green Bottles, Hamlet Call, all them sort of ones. then we went to like a showcase thing and we got the contract for the Havens holiday parks. And there was only three of us then in the band, the guitarist left because he wanted to go and do other things. So there was me on bass, a guy called Alex on guitar and Matt on the drums. And we got the contract for like, I think it was like 85, 90 dates in a year. Okay. Every different havens in the UK. Yeah. And I think I was 20 at the time. Wow. That's a big deal to have that set number of dates. we were celebrating like we've just won the lottery when we got it. It was weekend work. So it was every Friday and Saturday from March to October. But one weekend you're doing Friday and Saturday in Scarborough and Newcastle. And then the next weekend during Cornwall. Then the next weekend you're North Wales and then you're Clacton. It's every caravan holiday park. Yeah. it was such a laugh. I mean, for us at the time, we was 20 years old and it was like, we were just messing around really. We were staying in caravans every weekend, loads of beers, take away every night. And it was like, it was amazing. But we were, me and the drummer were both still working. So we were booking off every Friday. So using all of our holiday to book off every Friday and then get in the car Friday. And then we wouldn't get home till like late Sunday night and then back to work Monday. So anyway, that was how we started. was in that band. And then I said, still do, go to 10 Green Bottles a lot. It's like a lot of musicians go and drink in there. And there's always jam nights and open mic nights and things like that. And we met a guy called Cameron, who had come down from Birmingham, but was now living down here, but it was our age as well. And he was great guitarist and singer. And we always, always get up and jam with each other and have a laugh. And then me and Cameron and Matt and another guy called Brett, were just playing with like, at this jam night, we didn't really know what we were doing, we were just having a few beers, all just messing around. And this lady come up to us and was like, oh my God, loved you guys, can I book you for my Christmas company party? And we were like, um, we're not a band, but we can be if you want us to be one. And she was like, yeah, I'd love to, what can I do? And I was like, okay, give us a message or give one of us a message. And that was funny enough at Sands. Yeah. And they'd hired out the whole venue. It was a place called Jota Aviation. It's like quite a big deal. They're a private jet company. They fly like, they fly with a Man City team to every game. Like they wanted us. we were like, we were, yeah, 20 at the time. it was 20, I think it was 2016. Okay. 2018, sorry, we started the band. yeah, seven years ago. So I'm 28 now. So yeah, I would have been 21. And we turned up there, we had no name. We were like, before the gig, we were sitting outside, like, what are we going to call ourselves on the mic? Like we are, don't know. And we were just throwing out random names like, no, we can't say that, can't say that. And then I can't remember who said it, but they're like, what about Broadway? Because we met on Lee Broadway. We always drink on the Broadway and things like that. And we were like, that'll do. That'll just do. Let's just grow that. It's been eight years pretty much. Crazy. I love that story. And I love that they know your best friends and you built those bonds. And I'm sure you've had some weird and wonderful. So I was best friends with Matt first, through being in the other band, and then we met Cam. But music was was the thing that brought us together. And now I best man at Matt's wedding and things. So you're getting every like a few nights a week now or nearly because you do solo stuff as well. Your music every night of the week I would imagine there are there about. Yeah, at this time of year, yes, it's carnage. So it's pretty much every single Thursday, Friday, Saturday, Sunday. Yeah. Really without foul. All the way probably through till about November. You get a little month where it's not as busy. And then you've got the December madness. So playing music with your friends is one of the best things. else are you... I loved it because we wanted to... One of the questions, which if I had my pen on me, I'd be scratching that one out, was the genesis of the Broadway band. So you've covered that. Another thing, it's going to sound a bit... Maybe it feeds my ego or something like that. I don't know. being at a gig and when it's a really amazing crowd and you're, especially with the band, because obviously it's a lot more upbeat and like in your face and that, seeing like them singing back, you feel like you're a mini rock star for like a cup, an hour. Do you know what I mean? It's nowhere near how they feel, but Yeah, being at a wedding or a big corporate event and you're on stage and everyone's facing you and cheering at you and then singing along to the songs. It's really rewarding. like, they're enjoying what I'm doing. your interpretation of job satisfaction in what you're doing, one element of it. Yeah. And something's different every day with it. So predominantly now in the band, so we probably do about 60 weddings a year just as the band. And it's different every week, which is what I love as well. We'll turn up to venues you never played at. The Brian and Groom have requested completely different songs to the couple last week. You know, it's different people, different characters. It's something different every week. I love. it sounds like if you are requested to do songs that you haven't done before, you're not the sort of person that's going to say no. So you've got to be up for the challenge, you take that on. potentially you are, well, it sounds like you are led by whoever's wedding it is and then you reverse engineer it. Exactly. We have a big repertoire that we send to the couples and we say to them like, some clients will choose every single song. Right. We do try and say to them, This is our catalog. of we know what will work and what won't work. And also, if you've got 150 guests at your wedding, they might not all like only your two songs. I've been to plenty of weddings where I think the bride and groom, I'm not going to name any names, but assumed that their taste was everyone else's taste. Those weddings where you're like, you might be up on the dance floor for 20 minutes and then you're probably sat to the side. Yeah, so we have to kind of tell them, you can choose as many as you want and we will do our best to include them. Yeah, yeah, nice. We'll read the room and see what's going down well, basically. So there's that variety there. That's amazing. That's really good. What's the, conversely, what's the hardest part? What's the bit that no one sees that you see as one of the hardest parts of your profession? A lot of people think that it's so easy, you just go up and get up and sing. But it's not that. It's a lot of driving, a lot of setting up, a lot of waiting around. Which yeah, we're not really doing anything, but it's boring and there's a lot. Like some weddings, the venue might say, where you're singing tonight at half past eight is where they're having the dinner. So you can only set up at 2pm today. So then we leave, if it's three hours away, we've got a you've got to be set up by two. It takes us about an hour and a half to set up everything. So we've got to be there at half twelve, maybe leave at ten in the morning and then two o'clock comes and we're like, right, what do we do now? And you have to just sit and wait and wait for six, seven hours and then you start to feel a lethargic and then you've got to get up for it again because you're the entertainment. going to say that that leads on to my next question as well, which I'll say for a second, but I think if you had to give it a percentage about the time, because people see you up on a stage and they remember the on stage bit. They remember the performance, but they have no idea what happens behind the scenes. Like you say, lugging the gear around. first one's in and the last one's out as well. was a percentage, could you give it a percentage of how much is the performing? How much is the back office? Yeah, we've a wedding on Saturday. We've got to be there at half past 12. And we will be there until it finishes at midnight. So by the time we pack down, it will be a one o'clock, half one leave. So we're there for 13 hours, we're playing for two. So that's what you do. Well, actually, no, because we're doing some daytime stuff. So we're doing like acoustic stuff in the day. So maybe three and a half hours in terms of total playing time. 13. Yeah, so nine and a half hours of So then I'll ask my next question now. On the days, and then there has to be, although I'm tempted to guess that it might not be with you, Toby, but on the days where you rock up to a gig and you do not, maybe something's happened en route, maybe some things happen that's thrown you off your game, maybe you're feeling under the weather because we all get ill from time to time. How do you yourself up in the moments where you do not feel like getting on stage? Do you have that? Yeah, do know what it is? It's like a mask. It's like just an autopilot thing. think definitely because I've been doing it for as long as I have. maybe wouldn't have been able to do this when I was 20. I would have would have shown it a bit more. But yeah, we've had it where I've been ill or I've got a cold and I can feel my throat's tight or something. really a second, can we wear tuxedos as well when we play? So probably put in the tux on. Yeah, some Iron Man suit. but putting the tux on, getting my guitar on and then putting my in-ears in, then I'd have to remind myself, this is someone's biggest day of life. Yeah, like you've got you've got a job. You've got something to perform here exactly not like a, we're singing in a pub where you've got the regulars and the punters in, this is like, they've paid us to be the entertainment on their wedding. So like, let's, we've just got to switch it on. That really happens. We're always up for it, but you know what I mean? Because you're human. And you work hard and you're working late nights and I would assume if you're in your late 20s, this is a generalisation, but prioritising 12 hours of sleep a night or 8 hours of sleep night isn't what you're putting out now. I guess so much of that is down to what you do for a living. Monday to Wednesday, Thursday, I'm trying to get decent nights, but I can't because I'm stuck. I can't fall asleep. And then it gets to Saturday and I'm up early. We've got the dog. We're out and about and that and I'm up early. But then I might be up at half seven, but then I'm not getting into two 30. Yeah. And I think I've just done that for so long now. I'm just so used to it. Book your appointment online or in store and their beautifully designed space becomes your private dressing room. Somewhere you can collaborate with the best in the business to create something for any occasion. Their knowledge of tailoring, materials and how a suit should actually look and feel is second to none. First piece or something special, you'll be in expert hands. The customization options next level. Cut, lining, lapels, buttons, button holes, vents. What even are vents? The whole experience, first class. And for a limited time, Jobsworth listeners get 10 % off purchases over £200 in store or online with the code JW10, including made to measure. So if your wardrobe's due an upgrade, now's the time. Visit thelocalmerchants.co.uk for more information. T's and C's apply. you uh I think you've already touched upon this, but people seem like they underestimate the real graph that goes into what you do. Again, they see the time on stage. Do you wish people had more of an insight into what it is you do? you feel, again, having sat down with you for nearly half an hour, I think you're someone that comes at this from a position of gratitude. You get to do what you love doing. that is amazing. Yes, there are some times where I'm like, oh, especially like a wedding or something like that where when there's alcohol involved and things like that and you get people try and come on the stage, grab the mic, try and pull your instruments off. It's like, come on, come on. But I think at the beginning I used get really annoyed by that. But now I've just had to go right, I'd pass over. I'm at a wedding, weddings are places people have a drink and there's going to be a bit of that. Yeah, okay. Do you promote the band and yourself on social media? Yes. And in various different ways? I was going to say heavily, but as much as anyone does, you have to get your name out there and things like Instagram or Great Platinum. that's the modern age of it now, really. uh would you promote yourself any other way without that? mean there's a lot of booking agencies for bands, but the problem with booking agents, not that there's a problem because I know loads of musicians who get lots of work for them. an introduction and there's a worthwhile job for them being in place. but you don't build a relationship with the client. that's one of our bit, my things when I do solo stuff and the band is like having that relationship with the people who are booking you. they, they feel like they know me, we'll have numerous phone calls, discuss what they want. We can try and help them out with little bits, give them advice and things. Cause ultimately we've probably, we're doing 60 weddings a year. We've done probably three, four, 500 weddings, you know, like by this time now. And it's, we'll, not saying like that, but we'll know more than they will. So like we'll try and give them advice. But with the booking agent, there's no, you'll just get a call. you've been booked for this wedding. They'd handle everything. They take a cut. They fill your diary and as you're not doing anything really, you're just being told where to go. Yeah, I think that's interesting for anyone that might be earlier on, say. uh We're talking to, there's a Toby eight years ago that's listening to this in that corporate world and they're thinking, how do I make this a thing? Well, it's interesting to know which ways you can create relationships or that booking agents can facilitate a way to make money. I think that's important to hire. got that Havens contract, that was for a booking agent. And that was when I was 20 and it was, we just get told, we got given a list of these are your gigs for the year. They filled your diary for the year at the time. They're like, my God, this is amazing. And I think a lot of musicians I know who have been doing it for a long time, it started off of agencies and now doing the same thing. I want to try and do something for myself now as well. you don't want be beholden to anyone else. don't want someone to be the gatekeeper for you making money. And that goes across music, that goes across anyone that wants to work for themselves. You want to hold that key. You want to be the one responsible. Because once you've got that autonomy, that's again, it's a powerful tool to have. But yeah, there is a place for people that facilitate those. And they do everything they cover. you want to DJ a duo, a band, a Roman band at Wolfram with a double bass, they'll have everything. So they're great. Also, if you're not sure what you want for your booking for your wedding or something like that, look on a booking agency and you'll see, it's like, my God, there's loads. You just type in, want this many people, want them to play this genre and that. Whereas you can't type that in on Instagram. The reason I brought up social media is one, it's a platform to promote yourself. What's your relationship with it and how do you deal with the balance? you are, especially with Ashley, your partner, you want time together. You are trying to build a life and have a life, but then you're a performer. us out the minute we're trying to there's all this balance that we're all striving for and no one really knows the best way to do it. Anyone with a perfect answer is going to call bullshit on that. But how do you strike the right balance? So social media is one element of that and we're all, well, most of us are guilty of throwing way too much time into scrolling. When you're promoting yourself, there's a justification that I'm doing it for work, but then your thumb wanders onto a different thing. What's your approach to getting the balance right? Not just social. It's really hard. And my partner over there, she'll tell you like the difference with it being is because it's not a nine to five job. I can't. oh I can't. So I'll get a phone call because most of time they want to talk to you like a client is when they finish work. So I'll say, I know we've got plans tonight, but a half seven, I've got a bride calling me. So I'm to need half an hour to. So I think she's just accepted it now that I have. Yeah, really Instagram and that's how we get all of our bookings now. Everything comes from, we got a website and things, but our Instagram pushes them to the website. So really, Instagram is responsible for me earning any money at all. m I've spoken to a lot of people, my brother being the prime example. My brother hates social media. He's got half a million followers on Instagram. He cannot afford to completely disconnect from social media. how he interacts with his audience, it's how he makes money. But he hates it. So I think you do become beholden to it. He's putting those boundaries in place. We had Abby on whose episode has gone out today. But Abby was talking about, and she's a social media manager, specialist. advocating for time off your phone. Yeah, which is really refreshing, but it's so important. It is so important because you can get so hooked. Even in my industry, I'll be scrolling and then I'll see another live band or something and I'm like, I love what I've done here. And then I'll start finding all these bands and what have they done with this? my brain never switches off in terms of that. So yeah, I think we've tried to adopt it, like putting the phones down a bit of time before bed. How's that worked? It has worked well, but then we'll sometimes both find ourselves subconsciously pick the phone up. weird? It's horrible. gravitate towards it because it's habitual and it's like muscle memory. Yeah, it's odd. I don't want this to be a whole segment about phone use, but I think balance in general and if we're really honest, phones are now the thing that are taking up so much of our time. It's like an additional part of your limb, it? That is the appendage. Tell me if I got a message if my phone's not near me, you But then the added justification for you to react to that is that it's work. And if you don't react to an email or a call, then they might. It's tough. What keeps you working in Lee? So you called yourself the Broadway band, which I guess isn't too limiting because there's other broadways. You could go thought-based. wanted to go. But what is it about Lee that makes this such a great place to do the gigs that you do? Lee has got an amazing live music scene. Like Southend doesn't really have that much. It does, it used to. Years ago, Southend was the place to be. But Lee, especially with all the bars, like starting at the top, you've got 10 green bottles, you've now got the green bottle upstairs. You've got Broadway Pub, The Estuary, Sandbar, Corner Club. It's in the space of 300 metres. all have live music on days of the week. And it's such a really nice like community in the live music. So if I do a gig in one, I'll see people that I've seen in 10 green bottles and you know what I mean? everyone's kind of grown up around here knowing that this is a place that does live music. Yeah. So it's almost like that environment where you can apply your trade and learn that skill and hone it in these places. That's where going to that open mic night and jamming and messing around really has, that has made me what I am today really from doing that. If any musicians are listening to this, how accessible is it to start gigging in some of these places? uh Yeah, it's this do not be afraid like 10 green bottles has an open mic night every Thursday. And it's got such a great reputation. I used to run it for five years to host it. m But now the guy who I used to be in the band with called Alex now he hosts it. But it's, it's amazing. And you can turn up you don't have to call up you can just turn up with an instrument or with no instrument. He's a guitarist, he'll play guitar and you say can I sing a song tonight and say yeah, get up and do two, three. Nice. Yeah. And again, I think that would be really important for people to hear that are sat there thinking this is inspiring me to do something. How the hell do I do it? What's the path? But if it's as simple as that, you know. just message venues, know? half of the gigs that I've got now, like in the local ones. um so like for example, I'm singing at the sound bar this Sunday. I only got that because I saw that they were doing music and I messaged them and I like, hi, who looks after the music? I'd love to come and sing. And they were like, okay, yeah, come down. It's literally as simple as that. There's no audition process or anything. it helps that you've got as long as you have under your belt and that you're known to other venues and stuff. doesn't sound like it would have stopped you early on. I would not, I still wouldn't have done it. That confidence, think if we could bottle that and give it to people that are there with this raw talent but just don't have that, yeah, the confidence to go and make that first. It's a strange one because yeah I am confident but also not at the same time. ah does that manifest itself? I'll have, when I say confidence, I'm more like, not don't care, but like, oh, that's all right. What will be, be like that sort of thing. If they say, no, I'm not bothered by that, but I do still get confidence in other things. like public speaking, for example, if I was up on a stage, I'd hate that. I'd get really, really nervous. But if I have a guitar in front of me and I've got to sing a song, think that's the guitar's like my shield. So about the soundbar, they prefer you to sing tobacco tracks with a microphone, which I'd never really done after all my years of gigging. I'd never done that. And the first time I'd done that, I was so nervous. was going over it in my head, stressing, stressing. was thinking like, what am I doing? I do this week in week out, but because I didn't have that guitar there and kind of opening myself up, hold a microphone and be the entertainer and not the guy playing the guitar. What'd do? It's that. Yeah, it is that. hold a mic? What do you do your other hand? Yeah. It's hard to do. So we had a guest, two guests, Mark and Mike, but Mark Barnacle was the founder of a music charity called Time. And he described first picking up a guitar and exactly the same way he used the word shield. And it gave him this confidence. You only got to watch him. He's such a genuinely lovely guy. It must be a musician thing, definitely in this area. I can't speak for him all. But Mark's such a lovely guy and he's very mild-mannered. And he said that when he... put the guitar strap on, that was like, right, this is go time. This is my costume. It's a physical barrier, isn't it? And then the mental barrier, which is... So you're not looking at a crowd and look at them as you're singing. You're focusing on playing the right chords, the right notes and things like that. You can zone out, you can get into that flow state, which is so important. I think I know the answer to this already, but I'm going to ask it anyway. What's your favourite venue around here? Can you say it? uh For the band, what's your favourite venue around here? So we play at the boatyard quite a lot. Okay. We're playing there. Yeah, we're playing there this Friday. That's the only local place we play with the band. Right. okay. So it has to be that for the band. Yeah, has to be that. Solo, it depends on what night of the week. So if it's a Sunday, I don't want to annoy anyone, but the cork dork is my favorite. Cooked is amazing. It's just such a good vibe and everyone who, I don't know why this is, but everyone that goes there is always up for it. Not backgrounds. Like, you might start off in the first set, they're just tapping their feet and bobbing their heads. But second set, it's carnage. Yeah. And they're, yeah, it's carnage. I think I was singing, living on a prayer there this Sunday, God, at five in the afternoon and everyone screaming it. So that's a really rewarding gig. As you say, is your job satisfaction, it? Looking out at a crowd, they're all engaged and they're all buying into what you do and you've gotten. And you're working on the back of that energy. off of that. But there has been some, I won't name them, but places in Lee where it's really intimate and it's quiet and you can hear a pin drop and you don't really get many claps or anything like that. It's like you're just the background and I don't enjoy them as much. what's the feedback? It's almost not to say that you could put a backing track on and step away. If you're not getting feedback from your audience, you've got question what am doing. Singing quietly is so much harder than you think. Because you've been to be projecting and singing and things. yeah, especially in a place where you've got your speaker really quiet and you're trying to yeah, not sing too loud. eating their meals. It's yeah. So I'll say for Sunday, the cork dog for Thursday has to be 10 green bottles. I thought that was going to be one in the... mean we did play there as the band on Easter Sunday. It was how we did when we first started, on top of each other. Matt the drummer was sitting on the bar they have and had his drums up there. I was in the corner and it was a... But yeah the energy in there is just crazy. Yeah I'll say 10 Grins probably. I definitely from the way you were talking about it and what you owe to that and what led you to go on to pursue. That's great. You have talked about 60 weddings per year with the band. whatever, two, three other nights during the week with you performing solo. How do you keep it fresh? How do you keep it engaging? How do you keep it exciting for you when you are maybe performing the same song a hundred times a year? Yeah, it's the audience's reaction. like, for example, we always say the thing in the band, like Mr. Brightside, we've probably played more times than the Killers, we reckon. Because they might do four or five stadium gigs a year. We're singing it every weekend, you know? But the fact that different people like different stuff really helps, because we might have a wedding that say, we want predominantly indie rock. And we're like, yeah, fun. then the next day it would be, we want disco funk and soul. That sort of thing. But singing the same song, again, it doesn't really bother me. There's some musicians that want, there's certain songs they won't play. They're like, I'm not playing Wonderwall. Things like that. The song that always gets asked for. I'll play it. It doesn't really bother Mason like you say, if the audience, and this is me completely living vicariously through the way you're talking about music, because I can't play an instrument and I've never performed in front of people. mean, we could try. Maybe we'll add that in. But yeah, I think it must be the audience giving you something different. Even though it's the same song, the audience might be giving you something different. Or you experiment maybe with different ways of playing it or singing it or whatever. an example in the band, like Valerie for example, one of the most... I've never heard of that one. No, never heard of it. It's a bit of a peculiar song. We thought, what can we do to try and like change it a bit? We've added a modulation and key change in it, which we've never heard before, but it makes it fun for us. It's something a little bit different or we'll... Other songs where we'll drop out and do a little drum solo in or try and get the crowd to sing along. We'll change it up every time. So it's not like we're playing to a backing track. There's got to be the same... three minutes every time we play that we might. That's the artistry, it? That's the artistry of what you do playing with two other people when you're in the band that are... And also we know each other so well. I was going to say the word vibing, oh We know each other so well in terms of like, know what Cam, who plays bass and sings, I know what he's going to do. I know if I was to do something, I know how he'd react to it and things. So yeah, we just go off of each other. That's so cool. And like you say, going back to your point that you're playing music with your best friends. It's what it is. That's all it boils down to for me. I very lucky. So that's really lovely to hear. And I get this message from you that it's coming from a place of gratitude, that you're very thankful for what you do. What is your definition of success? So you've made this transition to music full-time. don't want to worry you and I don't want to make this a huge thing because you haven't turned 30 yet. But do you think about what your definition of success is? Yeah, I've never been one to think big house money, that. For me, success is as long as I can cover all my bills, pay for the house and the food, go on a few holidays a year and live in a happy life. The thing I love doing, that to me is success. massive house and loads of money would be lovely for anyone. But yeah, for me, if I'm happy and I look forward to going to work, which is success to me. Me and my partner have a lovely dog. moving out. We're trying to get a new place. We're going on a few holidays a year. To me, I'm like, that's all I need. Yeah. That's so, again, heartening to hear that you are checking those boxes. And it's important for people, I think personally, to be aware of what, not even successes, but what makes them happy. What gets them up in the morning? What their driver is? Because sometimes you can hit it and then you bypass it and then you're aiming for the next thing without ever acknowledging that actually maybe the last thing was the happiest. happens a lot. They'll quit their job or whatever and they'll go back and I wish I never did that. Yeah. We talked about social media, which is a platform where guess you can see, as you said, other artists and then potentially compare yourself to those people. You've done X amount of musicians out there in bands that you can also compare yourself to. Do you get caught in the trap of ever doing that? Okay. Right. will, TikTok's the worst for me. because it used to, obviously, I say back in the day, like I'm older, but like when my dad was growing up, it would be like, you'd have the people like the guitarist, like Van Halen and all these amazing bands that you'd listen to and they were brilliant. Now, every, cause I watch a lot of guitar videos, every person I'm scrolling is like, this person's amazing and a million times better than me. this person's voice is, my God, listen to his voice. It's amazing. It's better than like, everyone I see. So yeah, sometimes it's a bit like, have to put that down because it makes you start to feel a bit bad about yourself. And is that the main way you do it? If you can cut that out, so if you don't pick up your phone, if you don't digest that content, is that the best way you found of getting over it? It doesn't stay with you for too long? It doesn't stay with me for too long and that's where I'm maybe a bit, not careless, carefree maybe. I'll look at it and go, I'll get annoyed, not annoyed, but I'll be like, oh, I've never been asked to play like that or I'm not that good. But then I'll just be like, it doesn't matter. um If that doesn't bother me, it'll be going up my head and there'll be something else coming in. that's a type of resilience and it's obviously served you well because in any walk of life, in any career, in any industry, we've got people that we could easily compare ourselves to and it can drag you down, can make you envious of it, you can covet what someone else has got. I'll use the word liberating again, it's liberating to be able to go, but that's okay. I do what I do, they do what they do. Fair play to them, they're smashing it sort of thing. Yeah, that's really good. Has there ever been a moment where you've felt like giving up? Not with music, luckily. They never know, there might be in the future, but I don't think... Up till now? not giving up with music. I mean, I left old bands and things like that, but I never thought I'm leaving to stop doing music. I left because I wanted to do something else within music. I've been quite lucky at the minute. No, that's great. And I don't ask that as a loaded question. I just think sometimes people get to a junction in their careers where maybe that decision is the right one to make. absolutely. You are so early on in that path and making that transition out of your previous career and you've done it already. Like you did do it because even though you always knew music was there, you still had that option of carrying on down that corporate ladder, but you knew deep down that wasn't for you and you didn't want to carry on down that route. So in a way you've not give up, but you made the decision to know this is the route I want to go. And I'm not going to be doing this forever because it's going to get to a point where I'm the right age to be, people are booking you for a wedding and things like that, but they're not going to book a band of 60 year old boys. know what mean? We're not going to be 60 playing. Well, we never know, we might do, but I know that there is a, a musician in that industry, there maybe is a bit of a timeframe. Okay, so now I'm going to push you for what happens next. Like we're talking about a long time in the future. And again, I don't want to make you think too far ahead, but I'll frame it in a positive way. What's next? What do you see coming next for you as a musician, for the band? Have you got projects in the pipeline? projects in the pipeline with the band. we're obviously, I play guitar in the band, Cameron plays bass and sings, I sing as well and Matt plays drums. But everyone is, a lot of people are now moving towards this sort of like DJ sack sort of thing. They're booking for their weddings. So we need to kind of capitalize on that sort of thing. And I DJ as well. I DJ at the Estuary and Lee on Fridays and things. And we're trying to now add another product and do DJ. with live vocals and bongos and a bit more interactive stuff. We can be out in the crowd and just to add another product. Yeah, yeah, yeah, would, especially in Lee. They love all that stuff. it's all the outdoor space that so many of the bars have now as well. In this weather, uh just like a little holiday in the back of any of the pubs or bars around here would be great. that's, I guess music evolves, the industry evolves. you say, you hit certain milestones as you get older where maybe you'll appeal to, you have universal appeal. And then at some point that does start to taper a little bit. Not now, you've got ages. It's something to have. But going back to what next, I mean, I'd love to maybe have a few bands or own a few bands and then maybe manage them and send them out when I can't do it anymore. using all of the experience, the industry knowledge. Getting some bands together of great musicians and because I know some people who do that and do it really successfully or they'll run the music for certain venues like venues up in London, they'll book the bands for them and things like that. So you're still involved in music, but maybe not for many years. What's been your biggest career highlight to date? Some of the gigs we've played have been crazy and we've had to pinch ourselves at. Like last weekend, we played for the Lord Mayor of London. He's just moved into Mansion House where he lives, which is crazy. I think that came up on your Instagram actually. m play for his house warming party in this. Was this through Instagram? No, because someone who works has from Lee. So. They know someone Lee knows someone and yeah, but yeah, it was amazing and like we walked in there and we were like, oh my God, like there's I've got pictures on my phone. There's like the throne, the throne from 1860 in there. Do not touch. there's stuff on the walls. It's like, how have we got here? Like we were singing in, I like, I wouldn't say there's one career highlight, but there's a lot of like pinch me moments. Yeah, there's a lot of like, going, we done a gig for Trading Standards last year, which obviously a huge thing. was their annual ball up in Leeds and there was about 1500, 2000 people there. And we had this big sound team. It's not, we turned up with our own equipment. did it. We turned up on this huge. They're taking care of you up there. lights, big everything, all done by them. And it was like, my God, this is amazing. Yeah. That's different uh to a 150 person wedding. Yeah. So that's another like pinch me, but I wouldn't say there's been one high. I couldn't define it on one highlight. Is there something, is there a target that you have or a thing that you would love to do or an event, a venue, something that you've got your wish? I'd love to become like the biggest, one of the biggest wedding bands in the UK. Or maybe even branching out and being like one of the biggest wedding brands. like having that, you can have a live band, you can have DJ and sax, you can have this, you can have all of this, you know, but building the brand really. Yeah. That's great. mean, the foundation that you've got is... Okay. I've got one question before we go on to the next segment of the podcast. If you could play one song for the rest of your life, what would it be? One song. Or do I love singing? Or band or solo? Good question. Go on, give me one for each. band. I love doing never too much loop of Andros. Okay. I didn't realise it was going to go that way. Because as you say, we've changed it our own way. So we do a mashup of Luther van Drost, we throw in Good Times by Sheik, and then Rappers Delight, Sugarhill Gang, all in there, then back to Never Too Much. So for that one, I love doing it. I guess that gets a crowd reaction audience reaction. Not expecting a switch up. Solo depends on the situation. I'd say Bob Marley is this love. I love doing that one. Nice. Yeah. Do think you go mad after a while though? Probably. Yeah. I mean, I've sung it. I probably sung it three times a week for the last six years alright, it's alright at the minute. The sanity's still in check. Yeah. Okay. Toby, we're to play a game now. So you've got your guitar, I you're prepped for this. um You very kindly said yes to playing this game and it gives a chance for people to hear just how, I think you're amazing, just how amazing you are. we put out some song requests. The requests we've got listed are from some of the team or the team and then some of my friends and family as well. So we're going to start, going to chuck a song at you and just see how you fare. we've got an idea of your repertoire and I just want to try and challenge you slightly. So the first request, this game is going to be called Do You Do Requests? think it works. And for the first song, we're going to ask for Naive by the Cooke's. So do you think you can do that? You're confident with it? Okay. This is a staple in the set. Take it away whenever you're ready. saying it was your fault although you could have done more you're so naive, yes so so how could this be done for such a smiling sweetheart oh and your sweet temperate face is such an ugly world something so beautiful That every time I look inside I know she knows that I'm not fond of asking True or false it may be She's still out to get me I know she knows that I'm not fond of asking True or false it may be She's still out to get me oh That was so good. All right. I'm impressed. So that was Tom's request. Tom's a big fan. There we go. Tom, are you happy with that? That's a thumbs up. Okay. So the next one we've got is from Rob, who sits behind this big black screen most of the time and he's kind of a, he's around there somewhere. So Rob has requested, This Love by Bob Marley. Brilliant. Okay. Looking forward to this one. I wanna love ya In the streets we ride I wanna love ya Every day and every night we'll be together With the roof right over our head we'll share a shelter Whoa, off my single bed We'll share the same room, Oh, won't you provide the bread? Is this love, is this love, is this love, is this love that I'm feeling? Is this love, is this love, is this love, love that I'm feeling? Whoa-oh-oh-oh Peace That was so good. I feel like we should be paying for this. Right. Okay. The next one is Sam Fender hypersonic missiles. This is a request from me actually for my brother because we're big Sam Fender fans. no pressure. But how do you feel about that one? fine, I'll cut it short because there's a lot of- I'll do a a piece and a face. So I can remember it. If we don't we'll just cut it. Yeah, yeah, That's the power of podcasts, mate, we can do that. Dutch kids, Huff Balloons in the parking lot The Golden Arches illuminate the business park I eat myself to death, feed the corporate machine I watch your movies, recite in every line and scene God bless America and all of its allies I'm not the first to live with wool over my eyes Oh, the silver tongue suits and cartoons, they rule my world Saying it's a high time for hypersonic missiles When the bombs drop, darling, can you say that you lived your life? Oh, this is a high time for hypersonic missiles Honestly, man, that's so good. was brilliant. Luke's going to be chuffed to bits with that. Yeah, that sounds like some of the notes on that as well. Is that a top of your range? Yeah, that's so like... It depends on the venues. Again, if you're like in a place where you're singing quietly, it's harder to sing. When you've got the band behind you, you can really go for it. honestly that was a I'm getting goosebumps I don't want to make it weird for you because we're just literally sat opposite each other but it's so good. Oasis champagne supernova this is for Brad. many special people change? How many lives are living strange? Where were you while we were getting high? Slowly walking down the hall Faster than a cannonball Where were you while we were getting high? Someday you will find me Carved beneath the landslide In a champagne supernova in the sky Someday you will find I think I said something that was so good. oh amazing. Okay, we've got two more. The next one is from your good partner sat in the corner who's off camera right now, but Ashley has requested Brown Eyed Girl. I'm assuming you might know this one. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, okay. She loves his fun. when Down in the hollow Laughing and running, hey Skipping and jumping I'll steam on and fuck with our hearts of thumping you Round I go You Thank you uh you giving a thumbs up to that one? There we go. We've got a whoop off camera as well. Brilliant. Right, the last one, and this is a special one for me because it's my partner's favourite song. So it's Last Request by Paolo Nettini. It's a great song. So again, no pressure. Favourite This is for Sophie. Yeah. She's over the moon if you're able to do it. Slow down, lie down just want you closer Is that alright? Baby let's get closer Tonight Grab my last request and just let me hold you Don't shrug your shoulders Lay down beside me and sure I can't accept that we're going nowhere For one last time let's go there Lay down beside me There you go, that's for you, sorry. feel absolutely buzzing. That is my favorite game so far that I've played in the podcast and you absolutely smashed that. Thank you so much. Bye! Toby, we have a closing tradition on this podcast, which is to ask you, is my mum sends in a question via voice note. I'm going to play it down the mic. So let me play. Hi Toby, I'm an artist and I like having music on when I'm working. What artwork similarly inspires you to create your work? Thank you. So just in case that doesn't make sense, and I feel like I'm being unfair to Mum by then having to explain her question, but the way I interpret that, she's listening to music that inspires her to make art. Is there any art that you see that inspires you to make music? like visual art that I see. Because the stuff I do is predominantly covers, not really. I'd say it's more like your mum listening to stuff that does it for me. Hearing music is what does it. makes me want to go and play music. Watching a video of a... a band or uh a singer who's amazing or hearing something, a song on the radio or Spotify and I'm like, my God. Is there a particular artist right now that is doing that for you? Yes, I Being a bit of a muse. a guy called Alan Stone. I stumbled upon him from a random YouTube video that came on as like, what must have been, what's the sun ink? And it was like, you know, when they just auto play something next. And I was like, Oh my God, who is this? And I'm like, now become like the biggest Alan Stone fan. Yeah. It's amazing. add some links into the podcast when we share it. Toby, this has been an absolute pleasure. think I mentioned to you and Ashley when you came in that I've seen you around. I've seen you around Lee and for a long time wanted to come up and say hello. You are genuinely, you can tell you're a lovely human being. I wish you all the best with what you're trying to build. And it's really refreshing to speak to someone. Again, I'm 10 years older than you and I don't want to come across as being 10 years older than you, but I'm going to say it, someone that's in their late 20s that has got such an open, optimistic outlook on what they're trying to build. And I just wish you the best of luck because I think you're going to go ahead and smash it. So thank you. Thank you so much. That was so good, honestly. I love you so much.

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John Hawker

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