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JobsWorth Express - Will Grashoff

• John Hawker

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On this week’s JobsWorth Express episode I sit down with Recruitment Agency Owner, Will Grashoff. 


Will, like almost everyone working in recruitment, fell into it. A little over a decade later, he’s still doing it and has built an incredibly successful brand along the way.


In this episode we talk about the importance of embracing authenticity, resisting AI, the challenges of running a business, the power of not taking yourself too seriously and it was only right that we took the piss out of the recruitment industry a bit along the way too. 


In a sea of people all trying to follow a proven formula for success it's refreshing to meet someone who is willing to go against the status quo, stand out from the crowd and most importantly, have fun along the way.


Please enjoy...Will Grashoff


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you Hello and welcome back to Jobsworth. This week we have another Jobsworth Express episode for you featuring Will Grashoff, who's a recruitment agency owner. I've known Will for a number of years now. We met again via LinkedIn. Will is someone who is not afraid to poke fun at the industry that we both work in. He's definitely someone that doesn't take himself too seriously either. We do discuss what it's like working in recruitment, but not for the entirety of this Jobsworth Express chat. We talk about the challenges of running a business. We talk about what it was like for him running a company after not long joining through the pandemic, which was obviously an incredibly challenging time for, I think, the world, it's safe to say, but definitely for people that were operating their own company. We also talk about why he's pivoted recently with a bit of a company rebrand due to changing demands. And it's a really interesting conversation. I love Will. I think he's developed a really strong personal brand on LinkedIn, predominantly. So if you don't know who Will is, it's worth checking him out on there. So personal brand and by extension, his company brand have got a really strong following. And it just shows you if you leverage that platform in the right way and show a bit of personality. It can make a huge difference. So for anyone on the fence about diving into LinkedIn and investing a bit more time on it, then this would be a worthwhile episode to listen to, as well as generally being inspiring for anyone that wants to change their relationship with work, which is what we're all about. So please enjoy Will's episode. We're back with a full feature length, if I can call it that, episode next week. And I will see you soon, or you'll see me soon. That's probably the better way to say it. Bye. For anyone that doesn't know you will, how do you describe what it is you do? Oh, good question. So primarily, I'm a recruiter. So all of my bills are paid by doing recruitment and doing permanent placements into rep to rep in the creative world. But to be fair, most people will probably know me for the silly videos and stuff that we've done over the years. So Yeah, that's probably how people would know me. I think that's fair to say it's how I first came across you on LinkedIn and saw the videos you were doing. Obviously we're from similar worlds working in recruitment and I just thought that what you were putting out there was kind of a nice bit of satire on the industry poking fun at it, which I think more people need to do. So I'll go on to talk about this later on, but I think there's a lot of people taking recruitment very seriously and it is serious. We are placing people, we're potentially changing people's lives, but at the same time there are some agencies out there that are doing it in, yeah, not the way that I would do it and maybe not the way you do it well too. So take me back, what inspired you? What made you take the leap to actually start up on your own in the first place? So it's about seven, seven-ish years you've been operating now. Yeah, it wasn't actually a conscious thing. I didn't like, I'm not like an entrepreneur really. just kind of just happened. So I was working with a former MD of mine on a startup business and he secured some investors and some investment. And we were kind of all working together. Like I was his number two, you know, and he's a brilliant, brilliant man actually so much. of what I do has been influenced by him and his personality. But it got to about two months in of him and I working together along with these investors. And they just said, it's not really working with him. And they said to him, thank you, but we're not going to invest. And then they contacted me a while later and said, we really liked what you were doing and your ideas. And you seem to be quite sensible and switched on, do you want to do something of your own? And I was like, yeah, definitely, of course, that sounds good. Because at that time they provided huge amount of infrastructure around me, like a finance team, a marketing team, like we're part of a much wider group. So, you know, it was a really, really gentle kind of introduction into running a business, you know, and my stresses were, what were really only when I had to do board meetings and present to them kind of know what we were doing. And, know, these people weren't from a recruitment world, they're from hospitality world. So, you know, a lot of the reference points I was using, they didn't fully, you know, they understood, they did, it was different to them. So I didn't go out of my way to start an agency. just kind of happened. fell into it. God, is the, I use the word cliche so much in this podcast because so many of them come out, but it is the cliche always. Most people, 99.9 % of people fall into recruitment. And if you don't, question, I just question you. Yeah What you're describing there with this other person that you worked with, have you still got a good relationship with that person? Because I can imagine that may lead to some tension. It feels to me like it evokes these images of X Factor where a duo goes in and Simon Cowell says, wait a minute, I want you to stay, but someone else not. How did that run? It was a really difficult time actually because he gave me my first step to government recruitment. He taught me of huge amounts and I really liked and respected him. But absolutely at that time and for me to put him in that situation, was horrible really because I just had my daughter, she'd just been born, my second daughter had just been born. so I was like, fixated on money and being able to be a good dad and all of this other stuff and you know and actually having freedom so although I do feel like I probably you know like it wouldn't have sat well with him for me I had to do it and if I would have not done it I'd have really regretted it and I wouldn't be where I am now so it was the right decision I mean that we've spoken a few times since and you know I would I would happily go for a drink of him and probably have a right laugh and you he's he's a great great guy i'm sure some great things this time yet it's it was difficult which happens I don't know how old you are Will, but I'm assuming at that age as well, having been in the industry for a short amount of time to be put in that situation and to reach that junction so early on is really difficult. Like you say, you've got these dependents, you've got these big responsibilities to try and have to manage too. So it's huge. Yeah, do you know what, well, yeah, you're right. I hadn't been in recruitment that long. So when I was then building a team of people, like I didn't really know best practice. I didn't really know the right thing to do. So, so much of it was just kind of winging it and, you know, almost like trying to find an identity and trying to find something which makes us different and that, you know, we can be known for. Because yeah, I just, although I had a fair bit of... life knowledge and i'm nearly forty so i like that it was at my first career per se uh... that's the end recruitment i'd have a show learning curve was very steep by the sound of it. That's a big thing to have to address very early on. So I was going to ask if there was a eureka moment for you when you kind of were working for someone. This is what happened when I set up my own recruitment agency, but I was working for someone. just thought, I cannot, I cannot work for someone else anymore. I'm done. But it doesn't sound like that. That kind of stark transition happened. As you say, the transition was, yeah, I guess. It wasn't as contrasting as I'm working for someone, now I don't want to be working for someone anymore. Because like you say, had a of that, the opportunity was presented to you, bit of that operational support, which no recruiter really enjoys doing the back office admin, the finance, I still to this day hate it and I'm a now two person agency. So I guess, was there, did you ever think about going out on your own before the opportunity was presented? no no so i'm and you know i've been really fortunate in in my career to have some really great bosses i'd probably only ever had one or two people like who i've reported to you are not really got on with and really likes and you know i think myself some credit because i think i'm easy to manage or quite low maintenance and since you know i tend to get on one of the well some of the goods uh... good employee but i i never has that kind of Eureka moment where I'm like, can't work for someone else for I need to do it myself. um And I would probably say I've had more Eureka moments in the last couple of years. I'm like, I need to work for someone else now. I can't do it anymore myself. And as I suppose as we all do, when I run stuff. But yeah, I never had that. I I learned so many good things off former bosses and former employees and Employers sorry and you know even not say place for Wallace Hines. I work for Like four months before I was approached by my old Director and before months I spent there I still talk to Matt hog who's MD of that like most days we speak a lot and I always say to him like he probably taught me more about Like quality recruitment in that time than I've learned in my entire previous career. So You know, I was really fortunate to have great bosses. Sounds like it. Yeah, I've lucked out in a lot of ways and I owe a lot of gratitude to the people that got me into recruitment, helped me fall into it and then really gave me that foundational experience and guess the motivation to see what you can do in recruitment too. Those relationships evolve over time as well. ah But it sounds like, like you say, you've had a really good run with good, people. Yeah You kind of touched upon it a second ago, but have you ever questioned whether you've made the right decision? And I mean, not as broad as life, but specifically about going... Yeah, I know, let's dive right in. But specifically about starting the agency and taking that mantle and running with it. there been those moments where you thought, fuck, I shouldn't have done this. This is bad. Yeah, definitely. mean, the most obvious one for me would have been around COVID. So, know, back in kind of March 2020. And at that point, I think I had 11 people who, you know, who was working for me. So I was directly responsible for, you know, their welfare, really. all the uncertainty around it. You know, wasn't just, we're going into lockdown. At that point, furlough hadn't been announced. But it was also this deadly virus where I was thinking, oh my God, you know, my, if my mom and dad get this, they'll die alone in hospital. know, compounding that with, um, and certainly of, my God, I, you know, I need to pay people at the end of March and there's no money to do it. The investors at that time said, look, you know, we're in a hospitality trade. All of our properties are shutting. We can't do anything with you now. This is how much money you owe us. You know, thank you. see you later, which was actually the right thing to do for everybody. And I'm really grateful. And we still, we still got a great relationship, but absolutely. At that particular time, I was like, I remember sitting on my bed next to my wife and literally crying saying, like, I don't know what to do. When you're working with someone else, like your worry is like, it was not necessarily your worries. It's almost like their problem to sort out for you. Whereas I was thinking, Where am I going to get the money to pay these people from? We've got all this money on the sales ledger. None of those companies are going to pay now. So that was a real time where I was like, actually, with everything, you know, you, you, have, you cry and you get emotional and then you're like, right, okay, I need to this out and then, know, have a plan. And actually really fortunately, everybody who owed us money at that time. which I thought was just incredible and then furlough was announced which was incredibly helpful and then it kind of you know after that it allowed us to realign and allowed me to realize what was important and yeah like I the regret kind of went but it was it was only a short period of time but you know there was regret I mean, that's a huge, it is a short period of time. And looking back now, five years past then, that's crazy to think how much time has passed. Because at that moment in time, it felt like it was never ending for those three or four months after March 2020. I remember sitting down, because I was six minutes into my business, six months into starting my agency. I remember sitting on the sofa when Boris Johnson was on a telly saying, we're announcing this lockdown. And I was crying. And I remember looking at my other half as well at the time sat on the sofa and thinking, is, this is like rock. It felt my definition then of rock bottom. was like, this is awesome. But again, that was me and my family. didn't have teams of people to be managing and looking after and investors. Huge, you know, there were invoices outstanding, but not, you know, a couple of years of invoices outstanding, you know, this is a very different scenario to be in, but it was huge. Like you say, you learn from it, it forges something in you, hopefully, and then you go on to get stronger from there. You've had a bit of a rebrand recently, Will. What was the driver behind that? So, um, I worked seven was a bit, it was a bit, I mean, for a start, but it was named after the postcode where we were formed. So yeah, so that was, that's like 45 miles away from us now. So, um, I needed a refresh. It needed a bit of a redefinition because I think there was a fair bit of like, we, I, we, we started off as a generalist agency. Um, so we, we covered. lots of different markets and then we I felt like we needed to specialize we needed to have something we were known for in the recruitment industry and so we kind of eventually landed on Rector Rec and we also do creative stuff so it was just always I felt like there was lots of confusion lots of conflicting messages and actually I felt it was really difficult to brand like I had creative partners, had seven retro. So I wanted to bring it all under one. And it was lots of effort and lots of frustration having to have two lots of social feeds and having slightly different messages on each one because the retro-rect side is a bit more controversial whereas the creative side is a bit more cooler. And I was like, you know what, this is too much mental effort. Let's bring it all together, have that under Will's talent and, you know, just have like a single message. really we deal with talent. the, you know, the people who we represent are skilled recruiters and they're skilled creatives. it's, it's, it's the... kind of yeah, but most I think efficient way for me of doing it all together. So yeah, and you know, we tried to keep some influence from the previous 0x7 in terms of how we look, but yeah, it's, I just felt it was time. felt, you know, seven or eight years have passed and nothing had changed in that time in terms of how we looked. So it needed a bit of a refresh and like a re-energization really because i think that's a really fascinating last six months it really really difficult and i needed to almost cut out seven two pairs and then to start again of the renewed figure that will sell them It's that, again, awful cliche, it's that starting a bit of a new chapter, isn't it? Where you bookmark, you full stop on one part of your story and then you start again and as you say, you re-energise and kick off. How has the rebrand been received, both by your own people and by the broader market? Has it had much of an impact? not really confusion is the most common one. I think when I announced it to the team about you know we're to go for Will's talent they were a bit like so are you going on your own then is this your way of telling us your cowardly way of telling us all sacks? But I explained the rationale behind it and it's actually a lot more than just the fact it's been my name. We wanted to We want it to say, I find that the moment so much is impersonal so much is AI generated messages, templated messages, and there's just no personality or was no like almost like culpability behind what people are doing. So I wanted to use. my name in it and uh a name which obviously has and the word will has other connotations as well as a verb and you know what not so i wanted to use something which was like almost saying to all of these kind of ai impersonal kind of approaches you know piss off you know we want to be the face we want to be a personality we want to have an opinion we don't just want to be like a nameless faceless Corporation who hide behind AI so it was done kind of without you now The website's gonna be up and done this really time So I've kind of done a bit of a soft launch and once the website's done and finished It's gonna be a bit more of an aggressive kind of Marketing of pretty much what I've just said in terms of why we've changed and what we're doing So I tried to do it a bit of like a staged Staged way, but yeah, I mean of course OX7 was, you know, like a relatively well-known brand, especially in the town we live in. We sponsor the football club and, you know, we've got our name on two stands there and the back of the chairs. So that's going to have to all change as well. But yeah, I think over time, it's a bit Yeah, I mean it sounds it and I've toyed I mean I like my agency's called global tech collective So it's GTC but saying global tech collective is a mouthful straightaway So immediately when I started to announce myself on on the phone, I thought I have balls I've balled up big time here And there are times where I definitely think about rebrand I think there are times as you say you get stuck in a rut and you feel like I need something else to get energized back into this too We are proud to be supported by friends of the show and previous guests, the local merchants. They stock some of the finest ready-to-wear brands in the world and now offer a made-to-measure service that, speaking from personal experience, will leave you feeling like a proper celebrity. 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T's and C's apply. you oh But I went onto your LinkedIn profile, obviously in preparation for this. And I did see your explanation of why, why will one, the other words, the other meanings, definitions behind it. And it really resonated with me. think it's great. And you will find, I'm sure we're all having seen your content for years now, your own special way of continuing to get that message out there and it land. So that's all cool. And you, you do have a really strong personal brand and that leans into what you said about AI. AI taking over and taking the face, the human element away of so many recruitment agencies, our outreach, our messaging, our personal brands, all of this. How do you stop though from feeling like you're on a bit of a treadmill with the content you're creating? Do you feel pressure to carry on now because you built this brand, you've got engagement? Do you feel that pressure to keep going and what's the next idea going to be? massively. That is, um that's one of the hardest, hardest things. then, you know, it was slightly victims of our own success because it's obviously it's not just me, the whole team contribute huge amounts and like we can go sometimes two or three weeks without having the time to spend together to film videos and whatnot. And in my head, I'm constantly, my God, you know, it's been a day and I've not posted a video, you know, it's going to under the algorithm is going to affect me. all would be a set of you rubbish which really you shouldn't care about but I think yeah there's definite pressure but I am in a place where I don't necessarily make the content to get loads of views and or likes or whatever and actually we always judge the videos and the success of them and what on the sentiment of the comments so I feel at the moment on LinkedIn, there's a formulaic way of posting and it's obviously AI influenced and it could be, I mean people will use their kids or a dog or whatever as props to kind of, know, because they know it gets engagement, they know it works. I really, I get it and I understand it and for some people's business it's absolutely the thing to do. I don't like it, you know, for me it's slightly like fast food, it's... It serves a very short purpose, but actually the videos and content we create, I do it for like a very, very small audience who I know will like it and find it really funny as opposed to being really broad and having like 90 % of people go, yeah, it's all right. And then just moving on. Like I'd much prefer someone to actually like, we always say the worst. the worst response to any form of content is apathy. You know, just don't care, it's for a past. That's what we want to avoid. yeah, think that does come with pressure. And you know, if we, if we obsessed over how many reactions, you know, one of our posts got, we compare it to someone else's, you could get very obsessive and very depressed very quickly. And so I just take my mind out of that. it's, all about the comments and the you the sentiment of what people are saying as opposed to how many likes or how many views it's had. And yes, if you can get a post which does, you know, 10, I dunno, massive numbers and you have massive amount of sentiment, well that's fantastic. But it's not the be all and end all. I get that completely. And I think we're all to a degree slaves to the algorithm in that we need to keep putting content out there to keep in people's minds. And that's the biggest thing. I think with a good personal brand, can make you feel like, or make people feel like they know you really well. So when you do pick up the phone or you send them an email, they're like, oh, okay, it's not a cold intro. The landing is much softer than if you never put anything online. there's that driver. And I also think there is part, I know from the content I put out there, I don't know, I enjoy the content, I enjoy the creative side of it. I get the impression you do as well, Will. I get to a point where I would much rather sometimes be trying to think of videos or posts or I even like writing job descriptions of the adverts, sorry, that I write. I enjoy that because it's my opportunity to inject some creativity into my day. So yeah, I do find myself sometimes having to remember. This doesn't pay the bills, it to a degree, but actually doing the resourcing bit is what I should probably be focused on. But that balance is hard, for sure. Yeah, well, we always say that the filming of the videos, we have so much fun doing it. It is a release from, know, what can sometimes be monotony or like, recruitment is a really hard job. know, it's fundamentally, you would say it's an easy job because, you know, you're searching for people based on a brief from a client or whatever, but But actually it can be a really soul destroying job and you need to have a release. You need to have like a way of almost kind of laughing at the irony of what we do because let's be honest, some of the fees that can be charged are absolutely mental for what we do. is obscene. I saw a fee online the other day where I think it was at 850k and because someone got 185k which look, that is... You could buy a house, could buy like a row of houses. And fundamentally, they can dress it up as much as they want, but all that person's done is made an introduction from one person to another who probably wouldn't have crossed paths if they hadn't been there. So I just feel like we need to kind of be self-aware of like, look, we're really fortunate to be in an industry where we can charge thousands of pounds for an introduction. Let's not take it too seriously, like we said at the beginning. Let's not dress up as something that's not. We're not lawyers, we're not solicitors. We're doing, you know, we're making introductions. It's crazy really. I mean, it's taken me years. I've been doing this for 13 years now. It's taken me a long time to get comfortable with that fact that we're getting paid a good money to do what on the surface is a very simple job. And in some situations where, let's say, the placement falls into your lap, then it's really, I mean, the markup is really good. But you're dealing with a lot of shit. But again, I think you have to just pull yourself out of it, zoom out sometimes and think, come on, it's not what you're doing. Isn't that difficult? You're okay. Don't take things personally. Don't take things to heart. Control the controller balls, all these things. But I love the fact you're taking the piss out of it. And you are like the satire that you're putting into your posts. And that's why you lend yourself so well to the Rector Rec industry too, because it resonates with recruiters and they're the people that you need to engage with. So it really serves a purpose, which is brilliant. um I mean, you've answered the question already. Do you think the industry takes itself too seriously? Obviously. Obviously it's a strong yes. And I think even more so now you've got the introduction of these automation tools because it's so vanilla. It's so vanilla out there, isn't it? And there is a formula for how people get engagement. And it does seem to be spreading like a bit of a virus now. very hard to find individuals that are willing to stand out. Would you know why? And I think the problem with all of these like formulaic posters, it does cater for the masses and it caters for, you know, I don't know. I don't want to say stupid people, so it's not very nice, but like it's it's very, very low maintenance thinking. It's just spoon feeding rubbish, obvious stuff. And, you know, it like I. I have to stop myself from commenting so often on post. I'm just like, come on, you're being so transparent what you're doing here. Like just be a bit more intelligent with it, but it works for them. And you know, there's people who are running successful businesses using that as a, as a strategy. So who am I to criticize or who am I to sneer at what they do? It's just a, it's a different type of. like it's a different type of approach to it and you know everyone's entitled to have a different approach just because i don't like it and i think it's silly it doesn't mean it is I spend a lot of too much time sitting on my LinkedIn feed feeling like there's some injustice that I need to tackle but it's just my own thing. a lot of the time you teach yourself just stop getting involved in it. Just get off LinkedIn all of a sudden. I think it's so ingrained in our day to day, isn't it? That it's a very hard thing to do not spend time on your newsfeed. I'm going to ask for some advice now, Will, not for me personally, but for anyone listening. you'll be in good position to do this because really what we do every day is try and tap into something that somebody's feeling at work and then leverage that to see if they will explore new opportunities, isn't it, ultimately. But if someone's listening to this right now and they're feeling stuck in the job they're doing, what is one small action that they can take to move in the right direction? So if they're feeling stuck, maybe lost, maybe are they in the right company and they're in the right role? what's one small thing that they might be able to do to start some momentum going? Good question. That's a really good question. So I always feel as though you can, I don't know what the right saying is, but you can't see the river for the reeds or whatever. Trees, whatever that is. Yeah, that one. So I think sometimes when you're so ingrained in a job and actually, you know, a lot of the time invested in a company or whatnot, but you're feeling like you're I don't know, maybe undervalued or your work hasn't been recognized or actually you don't enjoy it. You need to remove yourself from that situation. And you can only really do that when you actually switch off and you physically have a time where you take some days off and you just allow your mind to kind of reach a bit of an equilibrium where you're like, okay, cool. I actually really enjoy this. I actually really want to do this. want to, you know, I enjoy for example, talking and meeting clients and schmoozing clients, that's the part of the job I enjoy, which I'm not doing enough of at moment. I think you need to remove yourself from a situation and not make decisions when you're in emotional states. You need to find your kind of level and be like, okay, cool, what do I enjoy? What do I not enjoy? And then I think you need to start having conversations. And as recruiters, our job really is to have conversations with people. And I feel as though you can... garner so much great information from peers, from colleagues, from people from other businesses, friends from different industries, just on, know, do you find that in your job? You you could talk to a bricklayer and say, do you sometimes feel as though you're not recognized as working hard when you actually are? And just to hear different perspectives and different, you know, different input. uh build up a bit of uh a picture in your head on what actually will make you happy and what will, know, what, cause you know, you don't get this time back, you know, and you only get to live once and being in a job which doesn't make you happy and makes you miserable is, is one of the worst things you can do cause you spend most of your time working. Yeah. So I just feel as though, yeah, you need to take, take it seriously and you know, respect the fact that you can't, rewind you can't go back to 16 and go oh you're not I'm gonna train to be a doctor because you get to 40 very quickly and you're like shit where's all that time gone? I've half way through my career so yeah I think it's allowing yourself to make a considered decision by removing yourself from the kind of what's the word like yeah being in the 50s Yeah, in the weeds. think that's so right. You've got to be intentional about it. You've got to be conscious and give it some real thought. uh And you can only do that, as you say, if you're fortunate enough to be able to take the position where you step away from all of the noise to really give it that thought, then you'd be in a much better position. But I've done a lot of Jobsworth episodes now and everyone's advice seems to be, life is too short. Like if you really are not enjoying something or if it's having an impact on your mental health or anything, you have to make the change. It's not really a question. You have to do it. The decision becomes very simple. I kind of caveat that with, it's great in practice, isn't it? It's great in theory to make that change, but some people feel so bogged down. But the advice is that simple. You have to do something. Life is too short to be sat there miserable. have to do it. Yeah, you have to act. I think that's the key thing, acting. And lot of the time, you know, you need, and that's why talking to other people is important because they all give you that kind of impetus to make a change and probably reassure you that maybe they've done it before and they felt exactly like you did, but they made a change and now they're happier. I know, we speak to people, obviously in our job, every single day who might not be going to see their kids enough. You know, the kids are growing up and they're stuck in An office job or they're commuting every single day and there's no flexibility and they're missing out on Bedtimes and morning times with their kids. You can never get that time back, know, and if You know, you're not going to do stuff that's important to you and it could be for the fact you can't go to the gym Or you can't go and watch your local football team if you can't do stuff as important to you You can't go back and do that time again. So yeah acting on it and and kind of being proactive and making the changes is yes, so you feel as you've got older, Will, and I'm speaking from my own experience here too, you're able to empathise with people that are going through different stages of their lives. I started in recruitment when I was 25. I didn't have kids. I was still living at home. And when people were saying no to job offers that I was presenting to them, could understand elements, but this big broad picture of, I've spoken to my wife and it's not right for the family. No, I need to think. I couldn't understand it. I mean, I'd said I would. I said I did. I'd nod. I'd like, okay, yeah, and I completely understand. But now I've got so much more empathy for these life events that people are going through. And I think it does make you a better recruiter as you have more experience yourself, in my opinion. Better recruiter, how do you judge success in recruitment? If it's just by billing, maybe I was billing more back then because I was a bit more shut off to it. I think it makes you a more well-rounded recruiter, let's say, if you've got that experience. I completely, completely agree. you know, I think with, yeah, with old age comes wisdom. actually, because I was exactly the same as you. So when I first started out, I'd like, just driving over 10 miles every day, what's the problem? you know, why aren't you this job just for sake of 10 miles? But actually that 10 miles equated to like 45 minutes for that person. That 45 minutes meant 45 minutes less time with their family. So. It's as I've got older, I've, you know, I mean, we've always been low pressure. So we've always very much been like, look, here's the role. If it's right for you, fantastic. If it's not, don't worry at all. Because I actually think if you try to be a bit more pressurized and give ultimatums, it turns people off. just, oh, no, fuck that man. I'm not going do that. So we've always tried to be low pressure and actually to really understand someone's true motivations. And you can only get that by having proper, honest, good conversations with people. So which again kind of goes back to the kind of, you know, the personal touch and but yeah, the human element rather than just having a load of AI generated questions, which are prompted to ask because you need to get an outcome that I don't know, but means you can submit them. Actually, I think having a human element and the kind of emotional side to it makes a huge difference and it gives you a much broader picture of the person and creates a better relationship and makes them less likely to ghost you etc etc. Yeah, no, I thought we'd align on that well anyway, but it's nice to hear we do. Right, we've got a game to end. I'm conscious of time, so I'm going to do a paired back version of this, but it's a game of complete the sentence. Now I will caveat this, I've tried to do this with another guest and bless him, I should have been clearer. It's a sentence. So we're trying to complete a sentence. So try and keep it as concise as possible. It's not... that's part of the challenge. Obviously it's a game, it just be easy. So I'll probably do three or four of these. So to put you on the spot, Will, success isn't about money. It's about Freezin' If I wasn't doing this, I'd be... uh I'd be... I don't know. you know what? I honestly don't know. It's so tough. If I wasn't doing this, I'd be... I would be... I'd probably be single because I wouldn't have had enough money to attract my wife. So that's what I'd be, first of all. Secondly, I'd probably be doing something outdoors, I think. Yeah, and do you know what, think I would love being like a labourer or working in construction on a site with a group of lads just what mucking around. What brilliantly honest answer as well. I used to be a scaffolder, and there are so many days where I miss that camaraderie and just being out lumping stuff around. I had Brackley Town, something to do with Brackley Town, the football club down as well. But you're obviously involved in that anyways. your job allows you to be more involved than you may have done if you weren't doing it. Right. We've got one more. Okay, it's a big one. The secret to happiness at work is... I'm going say again, freedom and flexibility. what I suppose what I mean by that, I try to keep concise is, you know, I've not missed a single sports day or show or anything like that for my kids because I've had freedom and flexibility to attend those. And I know how much it means to them that I can do it. And, you know, that's just a micro example of what everything in my life that makes me happy is. facilitated by the fact I can be flexible and have a lot of freedom in my job. It's brilliant. I kind of group that under the word autonomy. It's just, yeah, freedom, flexibility, autonomy to choose the things that are important to you and prioritise those. Will, thank you so much. The last question I'm going to ask is where can people find out more about you? Where can people find out more about Will's talent? You said that the website is still in development to a degree, but in the meantime, where can we find out more about what it is you do? Yeah, so just LinkedIn profile is probably the best place to go. Watch some of the videos and if that doesn't disgust you in turn, you know, so in your opinion, definitely contact me. If it does disgust you and tell you off, don't let me know because that will break my heart. Yeah, some things are best left unsaid. Will, it's been an absolute joy. Thank you so much for your time. I really appreciate it. uh Thank you, buddy.

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