JobsWorth - Liam Lingwood

JobsWorth is back and this week I’m speaking to Liam Lingwood, Head Chef and Owner of Essex based restaurant Food Leigh on Sea. 

Liam couldn’t be any more different from so many of the chefs we see portrayed on our screens in shows like The Bear or films like Burnt with Bradley Cooper (both worth a watch). 

As well as being a genuinely lovely bloke, his leadership style may well have been shaped by his less than conventional route into the kitchen and the mentors he’s been fortunate enough to work with and learn from along the way. In this episode you’ll learn all about that. 

We also talk about the importance of showing willing when you’re first starting out in your career, the impact of finding the right boss and the right environment, Liam’s experience of burnout, as well as how he overcame it, and how he took over an existing business in a way that honoured its legacy while putting his own stamp on it at the same time. 

Oh, and ready yourself for a game of ‘Rate My Plate’ and the subsequent fallout towards the end of the episode. You won’t want to miss it. 

Please enjoy...Liam Lingwood

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Transcript

0:00

I described myself as self-taught because I didn't go to college and everything I kind of picked up, I picked up by myself like cookbooks. I was making stocks from scratch, like from books and things when I was like 16, 17. you oh Hello and welcome back to Jobsworth. This week I'm speaking to Liam Lingwood who is the owner and head chef of Food, Leon C. I really love this conversation with Liam. He goes against all of the stereotypes you might have in your head of what your typical head chef might look like. So we're thinking Gordon Ramsay or Bradley Cooper's character in the film, Burnt or the guy from the bear. These are all the perceptions I had of chefs. going into this conversation, but Liam really goes against all of that. We do talk about those stereotypes and how they're portrayed in films and TV. He does admit that you need certain traits to get along in the industry, but Liam's really bucking the trend of all of that. We talk about his journey into the kitchen. We talk about how he's come to then own food as well. It's a really interesting conversation. If you enjoyed the podcast, please get involved in the comments wherever you're listening. We've got some amazing guests coming up over the next couple of weeks. I hope you enjoy them and I will see you soon. you Liam, we're going to start with the opening question. We're going to go straight into this now. When you were younger, what did you want to be when you grew up? Well, so I didn't actually always want to be a chef. I wanted to be a footballer when I was very young. That was all I was interested in. So yeah, most of my time was spent outside playing football. And then as I got a little bit older, towards the end of sort of senior school, I kind of did that thing. I didn't know what I wanted to do. So I followed what my parents did. My dad was an electrician, I enrolled. doing an electrician's course. Spent maybe a year, two years doing it. Absolutely hated it. So then, and then everything started to click with me with thinking about food really. Cause I didn't come from like a food background, like with my family that, know, we, we ate nice dinners that my mom cooked, but no one was a chef. Nobody was in that industry. So I started working. in a little calf like the weekends. It was in Chelmsford Highlands Park. So my best friend at the time, his aunties owned the calf. oh So I basically just started washing up there. They were fantastic cooks though. They're fantastic. Like it wasn't any, no frills, you know, like if they made a lasagna, they made a lasagna, know, they would make everything. oh fundamentals and the basics they were doing really well. were doing it really well, yeah. And I was just fascinated from that moment onwards. But I kind of did it in like a reverse order to what most people do. So I started off working in like not great places. Okay. And then towards the end of my career, I like really ramped it up and worked in some, you know, it's really high end stuff. So is that the traditional path that most people take if they're going to go into being a chef? You immerse yourself in the best place you possibly can to pick up those skills from, and this isn't any disrespect to your friends, parents, but the people at the top of their game. Yes, I think so. Yeah. I think a lot of people like they decide what they want to do straight away. They get themselves into a good college. I describe myself as self-taught because I didn't go to college and everything I kind of picked up, I picked up by myself, like cookbooks. I was making stocks from scratch, like from books and things when I was like 16, 17. So yeah, a lot of it, I just kind of taught myself and then working in you know, just like local pubs. It wasn't until I started working in like quite a high end gastropub, then I saw that side of it and I just pushed really hard. And then I went and did a lot of work experience in like Michelin star places, like near enough Michelin star places, just in my own spare time. So I kind of, yeah, I had to, I feel like I had to work double as hard because I was coming into that. kind of high-end kitchens later on in life. What was the reaction of your dad specifically, but your family or parents in general, when you started to have this idea that maybe going into food and cooking and being a chef was for you? mean, they were always really supportive. They were supportive of anything I wanted to do. It's just the hours and the relentless hours you have to push yourself. was going say it's got to be one of the most unsociable jobs that you could Oh yeah, it's not an easy career. It's a lot of sacrifice for not a lot of rewards. The pay's not great, the hours are long. It's getting better now and it had to. But yeah, mean when I first started and then going and getting this experience in like Michelin places and stuff like that, it was brutal. So how old were you when you got your first paid job working in a kitchen? uh As a chef, yeah, so probably probably 18 19. I'd yeah, that was a local pub, but I'm just trying to put myself in your shoes. At 16, you're making stocks. I don't think I learned how to boil an egg until I was 20. I'm trying to think what would have driven me at that point. There has to be, as you said, your mum and your dad could cook, but they're not wowing you with their skills in the kitchen. Any other inspiration around you that made you think cooking was it? Because I'm at 16, I'm not making stocks. So you must have seen something maybe? I don't, to be honest, I can't tell you what it was. It was watching like maybe watching cooking programs and things and then actually cooking myself and seeing the difference from what I was used to. So if you put a bit of love and care and attention into something, how much different it could be. I can't say specifically what got me into it. I was just hooked straight away and I've... uh gone throughout my whole life exactly the same. I'm like almost obsessed with it. It's amazing because I think for a lot of people, I'm going to say a lot of men specifically, cooking or that fondness of cooking, passion for cooking comes a little bit later in life. I love cooking now. There is something really unique about cooking a meal and serving it to people that you love and seeing their reaction. Again, in my late teens, I was eating basically what Rob showed you before we started recording. was pot noodles, Ben and Jerry's ice cream, anything to just keep me. keep the calories in and that was it. they're really interesting to hear in your late teens that that was already something clicking in you to make you want to do that. I think chefs, I mean, still eat like terribly as well, you know, like there's the both ends, like we might cook really night and people often say to me, you must eat fantastic. And I'm like, no, I don't really like take. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, I try to now later on in life, try to look after myself a little bit better and eat a bit more healthier, but younger going into the kitchen mentality, you didn't eat very well, if at all sometimes. That's yeah, is where all around you is food. Yeah. And you were probably starving hungry because all you're doing is concentrating on the task at hand. There's a hell of a lot of pressure. Yeah. I would imagine having never worked in a kitchen. I go on to ask about whether some of the stereotypes that we see on TV and films are fair or accurate in a second. But as you got older then, if you can't remember an inspiration through watching TV or reading cookbooks, as you got older, was there someone in particular that you started to follow and think, I want to try and emulate? some of what they're doing, any people you could identify. So yeah, I mean, there was lots of chefs I sort of aspired to. The earliest one I can remember is Ramon Blanc. I just used to watch his TV programs and that was where I felt like his passion for food. it could have been, there was lots of different things he was cooking. He would get just as excited about something he might be having at home than in his two Michelin star restaurant. And for me, that was what. food was all about. And, you know, I didn't always think I want to push and go to them levels, but food can be just as good like that dish to that dish. So Ramon Blanc definitely, you know, we spoke earlier about Michelle Rue. And then sort of later on, there's been lots of influences really, Brett Graham at the Lebrie, people like that. But just for the overall philosophy really. of what they do and their passion of their craft. And through digesting that, does it become easy to make an original philosophy? Do you cherry pick what you see that's been done really well by others and then create your own thing? And I guess that comes with experience, maturity, time served in the industry, which you've been in for 15, 20 years. So is it easier to do that now? you start with original ideas? it's, I've heard a lot of chefs say this and it's like they cook other people's food up until there's a sort of cog where they change and then they start cooking for themselves. And that's when you become head chef, maybe that's that's kind of level. So I think that's with that sort of falls into philosophy as well. So you kind of, whoever you're working for at the time or working with, you kind of just cooking their food, doing their thing, you feed into their philosophy. And then when I got sort of, when I took the role as head chef for John at John Lawson's, that's when I sort of started to come into my own. Cause he gave me free rein to do what I wanted to do. And it was fantastic. We had this beautiful produce we was using. He had his philosophy. So Going into that, you know, we've kind of kept that rolling over a bit, the philosophy, but we've changed it to us. Yeah, and I'll go on to ask about that, how you take over something and honour the legacy that's been built, but also put your stamp on it. I'll go into that in bit more detail because that's something I'm really interested in. At the age of 18, you get your first paid job. When do you decide, this is going to be my career? Is there a moment that you remember where you were like, this is it for me, this is what I want to do now? I think I spent a lot of years just, I was so passionate, but I don't know if I had the confidence to, I think I went and did a couple of interviews in London and, you know, either got, just got the job and got a bit freaked out and didn't make the jump, or if I went to a couple of places, I didn't quite have the experience. So I think I spent a few years just sort of taking where I was and it wasn't great. and just taking the money really, but always knowing that I wanted to push myself. And then I took a job in about, it must have been about 21, 22, and it was in Saffron Walden, and it was a fantastic gastropub, and they made everything, bread, all of the sauces were made, and coming from where I'd been before, where you might make some of it, some of it was bought in, like that. And I think at that time when I saw that and I'd worked and I was then working with people that had worked for fantastic chefs and they had this knowledge that they were passing on to me and I was like, this is where I want to be now. And then I started really, really getting into it then. And then that's when I started approaching places and going and doing stages and things. can imagine there's a hierarchy in the kitchen. So if you say, you're working for someone, it's their top dog and you are kind of dancing to their tune really and picking up skills and all of this stuff, but they come up with a menu, maybe taking snippets. And if you've got an opinion, the good ones will, I assume, listen to that and maybe put that into practice too. But it sounds like who you're working for and the environment you're in is super important. Super. you're in the wrong environment, maybe that can scare you off completely. So it sounds like the path you've taken aligned really nicely with working with the right people, getting the right opportunities and has led to where you are. Yeah, think picking the right person in the industry, because I've seen some fantastic chefs, could have been fantastic chefs that have been put off, they've been burnt out. You know, not everyone's style is the same. I'm very different to someone, you know, you get these kitchens and they're like army regiments, you know, discipline, whereas I'm more creative and I like to give my people underneath me that bit of creativity to keep them interested. That's how I learned. there's different ways and different styles, but finding that right chef for you, that right environment is definitely so important. And it's so much easier now and that the kitchens are not like they used to be. uh Cause I'll go on to ask now, cause in my head, come into this conversation and I kind of got this impression through the kind of personal brand you put out on Instagram predominantly, that you weren't this stereotype that I had in my head, this Gordon Ramsay, shouting, dictatorial type uh chef that was shouting demands in a kitchen. But then when you watch, I think that idea, that stereotype is kind of perpetuated by shows like The Bear by films like Burnt with Bradley Cooper. How realistic and how true to life do you think shows and films like that actually are? I in them high three-star, two-star kitchens, I think you probably find a lot of it, because they don't allow for anything but perfection. But for me, perfection isn't really a real thing. We strive to be like it, but they're never happy. Yeah, it's never... uh I mean, we have exceptionally high standards of ourselves, but if something... can't be done, it can't be done. mean, we're a small team. So, you know, we're constantly having to change things and be like, that's too much work. So we're quite, I think we're quite easy going with it, you know, but we do have, you know, in certain ways we do have them think some people coming into our kitchens would think, well, that's mad, you're doing that, it takes so long. But there are certain things that I won't drop my standards on. That aligns with philosophy again, doesn't it? And then like you say, yeah, you've got, you've set a standard and that, I guess that helps as well when you're training people and you're setting that tone for how the kitchen is supposed to operate. I understand in a way, function and format and a structure. yeah, my stereotypical image of that kind of high quality, high class kitchen is some asshole stood, know, shouting orders, which I think is... Yeah, it's an idea that's kind of romanticized and put out there by a lot of the shows and the films that you see. Yeah, I think there are certain aspects of that, but I try not to entertain it too much. I would much rather my young chefs come to me and tell me that there's a problem with something than be too scared to try and hide it and put it in the fridge and not get it checked off or something like that because they're terrified of what I might say. just through their general wellbeing as well, not being able to talk to me about it. No one wants to be... Well, I wouldn't think anyone sets out to be a manager that has their staff scared of them. But again, this stereotype, I think a lot of the time is that, yeah, you are this kind commandeering person that stood there and bellowing orders. When I say you, I don't mean you specifically. But yeah, that's the stereotype. So I was just really interested. I love the bear and I love watching cooking shows and I grew up watching Gordon Ramsay's show and all these kind of... people that were trying to turn their restaurant around, and obviously in a very dramatic way, but so much of those lead characters in those shows is that stereotype. So it's nice to hear that, you accept there's elements of that, because you've got standards, but you don't have to be doing that. I think even in The Bear, you know, towards the end seasons, you kind of see that transition even in that of him realizing that what he's been taught and what he's learned is not always correct. So I think that generally shows the transition. But that last few episodes, you know, when he's got that guy and he's broke down in front of him and I can really resonate with that because it's kind of the industry that's saying like we need to sort it out. If they're identifying and highlighting, we can see that there's a problem. Let's try and make this a thing and expose that a bit more. Bring that to life. That's good. Do you, could you share the toughest environment that you worked in as you were training? You don't have to name exactly where it was, but was there an experience that you had where you were thinking, I might've made the wrong decision here. I might be hanging knives up. been a couple of times, there's been a couple of times when you, you know, I'm not cut out for this. Uh, you know, you, you think it's just, it's relentless every day, but you kind of do turn it around and you get a bit resilient towards things. then the kind of person I am as well, I'm like, I don't get hit up on things. If I think this is not for me, then I, then I go. But yeah, most luckily, most of the people I've worked for have been really, really like strong characters, but they're very approachable and you learn lots from them as well. So they've not been, I've not worked for a Ramsey kind of. That's good. Yeah. And I think when we talk about that path that you've taken through, that sounds very fortunate, but like you've made the right choices. And maybe if you did find yourself under the management of someone like that, you wouldn't have stayed there. Not for my style. mean, know some, I know certain people that, you know, relish things like that, but for me, it's never been, it never been something I've been interested in. Okay, have you ever experienced burnout? I can imagine there's a lot of it in your industry. I can imagine long hours, poor diet, which is so ironic given the quality of the food that you create. But have you ever experienced burnout? A times, yeah, a few times. How did that manifest itself? Oh, it's quite, it's a real struggle. Yeah, a real struggle, like mentally, like your body just, you know, you're kind of there, but you're not there. You know, it's like your whole sort of family life, your friends and things. It's all affected. Yeah. So you sort of spend time on the sofa, just like scrolling and just depressed. In a pit, I've described it as I've had my own version of burnout over the years a couple of times. And I think when you hit that, it's all encompassing. It's a physical reaction to it as well. It does knock you out. forces you to lay down because you can't do anything else. And for me, it's like, it's a struggle because everything seems to be a huge task. The slightest thing can happen, which usually in your day to day when you're looking after yourself, you know, you've is fine. But when you're, when you're burnt out, everything just seems like this massive mountain you got to climb every day. hugely overwhelming, insurmountable. And the reason I ask that is because how have you overcome that? Because I think for a lot of the conversations we've had, burnout is prevalent. It happens. think for a lot of people that want to achieve something, everyone's on the edge of it. But then once you've done it, how do you then come back? You said it's happened a couple of times. Yeah, I mean, you have to really, you have to really look into yourself and you have to think, right, what can I change right now? Because there is something that needs to change. Your body's and your brain's telling you something needs to change. something needs to change. And for someone like me that is a bit of a perfectionist, that's a bit of a control freak, it's harder than like... let that go, but you have to, and you have to kind of lean on other people around you as well. Maybe if you've got a team, give them a bit more responsibility, say, right, do I need to be in that early this morning? Can I go to the gym this morning? Can I look after myself? Can I have something nice to eat? Like rather than just getting in, getting your head down and just getting cracking on with whatever you need to do, doing something for yourself within the day. So I think for me, that was, That was probably a bit of an eye-opener. But you can do it, and you know, the more you look after yourself, the more sort of time you feel like you've got in the day. Yeah. True. Isn't it interesting? Because I'm listening to that, having experienced burnout, and I'm nodding along thinking that's great advice. But if I hadn't experienced burnout, I would be like, well, until it happens, I'll probably just keep doing what I'm doing. And I think for so many people, it needs to happen. And that's a shame. But they need to have gone across that line to experience what it actually feels like to then put the boundaries in place. And I don't think I've spoken to anyone that's not burnt out that knows how to handle it. You have to It has to happen for you to then put the tools in place Yeah it does, I think you spend a bit of time like thinking what's gonna happen to me at the start because you don't know where to turn because you're like what is going on? not experienced it before, mental space that you're in also makes you feel not even wanting to have the conversation. You might not even have the energy to go and ask for help from someone. Yeah, I mean, especially in doing what I do, it's kind of, it was a bit like a badge of honour working all these hours and, you know, being able to do it. then being able to say like, I'm not all right here, you I'm not okay. I need to change something. I need some help from somewhere. But yeah. It's such a shame that people, most people, and I hope people listen to this and listen to the fact that you do have to ask for help and you do need a good support network and you do need to delegate and maybe outsource bits and pieces before it happens. I want people to listen to that and do it. But I also know from my own experience and other people I've spoken to, they'll probably burn out and then realise that it's going to happen. I've been quite cynical, but I feel like that's what happens. Yeah, I mean, I try to install that into like the younger chefs that I work with as well, like to, you know, look after himself. I mean, I've done all sorts of work on myself, trying to make it not happen again. Like, you know, going to talk to somebody and getting it out. Why do you do this? Like, you know, these behaviors and things. So being able to talk to people and getting them to listen as well before it happens. it's again, it's on, you know, it's also on other people not putting too much on your staff. It's down to us, down to me, my responsibility to try and help them as well, because I've been through it. So it is, but it's a tough one. It's a tough one. No, it's I mean it sounds like you're a very supportive leader, which is We're only talking to you, but it sounds like it. uh I was going to ask about work-life balance, we kind of touched upon, but you're in a relationship as well with Gemma. How do you balance that with all of the work that you're doing? Okay, that's one way of doing it, I guess. we work together. So she's, she runs the front house and I run the back of house. Okay. Um, so it becomes even harder because we've. was going to say that's a blessing and a curse, isn't it? You're in the same space, but you're not necessarily with each other. Yeah, I mean the work time is not really Most of the time we're talking about work. Yeah, so we really have to try on our days off to try and Separate we're always on call. So we're always answering emails phone calls, but we have to dedicate Parts of the day and we're not gonna do that any of it. So come Monday after the weekend we just shut off right and then maybe in maybe in the late afternoon we'll open up a few emails if we need to. yeah, it's a real, you have to be really strict with yourself. Like, cause I just want to be checking all the time. You know, running your own business, you're constantly worried about, you know, the bookings and it's been fully booked and stuff. we luckily, we are pretty good with that side, but if there's a table to fill, I want to fill it. Yeah, of course. It's your livelihood at the end of the day, isn't it? again, we talk to lot of guests about how you set those boundaries, how you delineate the line between work and life. And when you're in a relationship, it's even more important because you're a couple and you want to make sure you're giving each other that time. Did you meet in the industry? no, so we didn't meet, we didn't meet in the industry. Gemma has worked in hotels and like high end hotels and I was always the, um, I was always a chef. We never worked together before. Yeah, okay, but as front of house, then that experience is amazing, isn't it? Yeah, I mean, yeah, I mean, she's incredible with what she does. She's incredible. Yeah. So I wouldn't want to do it with anyone else. Yeah. And it kind of, it works for us. Yeah. And we, and we do love it as well. So it's, it's, you know, when it's, when it's good and it's, it's not like a job. Yeah. We, we love it. Yeah. We really do. I guess there's challenging days and there's days where shit hits the fan and things go wrong. um, yeah. And you might, you may be sat there questioning, did we make the right decision? And we're to go, we're going to go on to talk about that. Cause you, so if you can take me back a few years now to 2019, am I right in thinking that's when you joined food, which was then food by John Lawson. So what drove that decision? So John, so I'm from Wickford and John is from Wickford and Wickford's not really a place where anyone kind of, there's chefs, I don't know anyone that's come out of Wickford that's made it big. But apart from at the time, all my friends, my friend's brother actually was friends with John. So they knew him. They always used to speak about this guy, John Lawson, and he worked for Gordon Ramsay and he had this place in Australia that he was head chef for Gordon for. So I'd always followed a few of his TV programs that he'd done. did MasterChef Australia. So I'd watched them and then I hadn't heard anything for a few years. And then I'd heard that he was opening up this place in Lee and I started reading about it I was fascinated. was like this guy's, you know, had this hugely traumatic injury. He had a brain tumor. Yeah, I don't know much about John's backstory, to be honest with you. uh So he had a brain tumor and he opened this restaurant to kind of aid his recovery. And, know, he didn't want to go back to cooking with friars and things like that in the kitchen. So I was fascinated and he wasn't using any gluten, wasn't using any dairy at the time. I, all we'd cooked with was that stuff. And I said, how is he going to do this? And then I was looking at some of the photos. So I just, um, messaged him on Instagram. I just said, can I come and do a few days? I don't want pay. And I just want to come and learn. So I did that. for a few, few weeks, but he didn't have anything. He was just doing it. It's similar to what me and Gemma are, you know, he was the chef. He had somebody run in the front, had a couple of apprentices. It was really small. He wanted to keep it like that. He just didn't have anything for me at the time. And then maybe about a year after him being open, he said, like, I'm ready to have a head chef now. So he messaged me again. and then I went down there and then we went from there. Yeah. So it was. You know, I always did things where I would go and work for free to see if I would like it for one, to see what they were doing and also to show a bit of willing. Yeah, it's a bit of try before you buy before for both sides, isn't it? You get a chance to be in that environment and see what it's like and they get a chance to see what you can do. Like how, okay, well this guy's saying he can do X, Y, Z. I've seen it in the flesh. That's a nice way. I work in recruitment. I think if more companies had a chance to see the employees they're about to spend tens of thousands of pounds hiring, yeah, maybe some of them wouldn't or they'd be quicker to hire, you know. Well, John always said to me, was like you was knocking on the door. You know, I knew that you was knocking on the door and that it was, yeah, for me, I was, you I wanted that job. That's really, I think that's a really good lesson for people listening to this to take away too. First off, putting yourself out there and actually showing willing, showing desire, showing a bit of hunger, not waiting for something to find you. You have to be in the right mindset and headspace to do it. then, yeah, and then the follow-up, because you could have just read about John, you could have gone in and done that. What were you doing? When he rung you, when the call came in, he said, I'm ready. I'm assuming you were working somewhere else at the time. working at relatively good restaurant in Essex. I sous chef there. But I was in the process. It was really strange. was in the process at the time of a few, there was a few job offers around. Yeah, it was a nice position to be in. There was probably like two or three of the best restaurants in Essex that I could have gone to at the time. But as soon as John rung, I was like, I want to go there. I loved it. I just, it was so unusual, the place and what he was doing, the working with local suppliers and the chefs come out to the restaurant and explain the dishes. I'd never worked in anywhere like that. We was just behind in the kitchen. Yeah, separated. Yeah, in the extreme heat. Like nobody saw the chef, you know? Yeah, I think that's amazing. Is that where you developed this kind of love that you now have for locally sourced products or that started to build earlier on? No, I would be completely honest, was until I worked for John, you know, because he'd created these relationships with people locally. And then I sort of took that on from him and I went out and got my own suppliers and met my own people and things like that. So it just built upon that. But yeah, we've always been super passionate, if we can, using as local to the restaurant as we possibly can. Yeah, I think when I saw that that food at the time it was John's restaurant had opened, I think that was a really lovely message that was being put out there. And it was something that I guess you had to take into consideration when you took over. So can you tell me a bit about how that came about? Yeah, so it's been sort of in, it was in process for quite a few months of like, know, whether I was going to go and get my own place and I was looking at other places. Um, so when I, so I left John's for a little while and come back. So I went and worked in a few really nice places. I went to work in the Corinthia in London for Tom Kerridge. I was there for a while. I've been in other places in Suffolk, few other places in London, and I'd come back to Essex. and I was working in the place locally to me and John had got in touch, his head chef was leaving again and said, you know, would you like to come back? And I said to him, like, I would love to, but my next step is like, oh, this, want my own, I want my own restaurant. And he kind of said within, you know, within his way, like, you know, we can work towards that kind of thing. So I don't know if it was in the business was in a position ready to do that. So yeah, then we sort of had a bit of, you know, I had 18 months of sort of working back for him, maybe a little bit less than that. Yeah, a little bit less than that, maybe a year working back for him. And he's like, I'm ready to sell. Wow. Did you think it would happen that quickly? uh Um, I mean, the climate of restaurants, you know, I was looking at it thinking, I don't know how much longer we can sort of do this and John's not here anymore. And, know, we need, you know, for a business that size, it needs to be chef, chef owner led really. Yeah. There's not the financial climate of it. This doesn't work to have, you know, it's gone at the days of when you can have loads of staff and you know, you can take a bit out of it. that, I kind of knew that it would happen eventually. I just didn't know how it would pan out or whether I'd be in the position to take it over, you know. But it just all sort of fell into place. And I think for John as well, he wanted it to go to me. Like he, you know, obviously the money side of it is always a thing, but he wanted the message to stay. He wanted it to stay fundamentally the same. which he knew that I would keep. 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Customization options next level, cut, lining, lapels, buttons, button holes, vents, what even are vents? The whole experience, first class. And for a limited time, Jobsworth listeners get 10 % off purchases over £200 in store or online with a code JW10, including made to measure. So if your wardrobe's due an upgrade, now's the time. Visit thelocalmerchants.co.uk for more information, T's and C's apply. taking over that existing brand and honoring that and respecting the fact that it's got a following and it's got clientele and it's built a home in this part of Lee Road, but then wanting to make it your own, how did you approach that? Did you feel like that was a bit of a wait? Did you feel like that was an exciting challenge? Or still is, I guess? I mean, it's still evolving. Yeah, it's still evolving. I think I've been such a big part to the restaurant as well, which John kind of recognized. mean, I've probably been cooking in there longer than John has, which is ironic. But I feel like it's kind of a bit of me anyway. I mean, always got the, I mean, his name was over the restaurant. So you are always kind of, you know, dealing with a It used to be John Lawson's. That's fine for me. I'm not precious with my ego. I'm not too precious about that. But putting our own stamp on it. I feel like the last 18 months I've been doing that previously anyway. I've took the reins and then Gemma's done her own bits out the front as well. we've kind of, it's just been a work in progress. And it will continue to happen. We don't always... as restaurants, you don't always get it right either. And that's a thing that people don't understand. You know, we do make mistakes and then we have to like, you know, we have to think, well, that didn't, you know, that didn't work so well. And you know, how are we going to change, how are we going to adapt or this isn't the climate to be doing this right now. Yeah. So have there been times with this drive to source locally produced products, have there been times, I guess, and there's a couple of drivers behind this, isn't there, but have there been times where you thought we can't carry on like this or actually we'll throw that out because sometimes it just be easy to go to a supplier and bring it in. There's many a times when it seems like it can't be done. mean, one obvious one to me is like the fish. Like we use Osborne, so they're a local company, but where that fish comes from, we used to be able to get fish from the estuary. really are no boats that go out there anymore. then, you know, our fish kind of comes from Kent, Suffolk, which is to me is... Still pretty long Yeah, you know, they might go as far as Cornwall, but in regards to everything else, I think you have to adapt to your supplier rather than adapting your ethos. So if something might be a little bit more expensive, and you can't then that's for you to decide that you might use something else. If there's a cut of meat, you might not be able to use fillet of beef, but we use a rumper beef, right? But we use you know, using like whole animals, whole carcasses, things like that, breaking that down, we can deal with costs that way. yeah, I mean, it would be easier sometimes not to, but then I think that's why we went down to the free days is it allows me to source these ingredients, pick them up if I need to go and speak to these suppliers about what we want on the menu and have that relationship with them. But they need even down to like. Chandels we use like local companies and know refill rooms for our dry goods So yeah, we try to be and flowers and things so we try to use as many little local independence we can Cause I know on the kind of pre interview questionnaire that I asked people to fill out, you mentioned that you're passionate about supporting local businesses and local farmers, local fishermen and everything as well. And I think that's really important. I mean, it shares one of the values we've got on the podcast that we want to showcase local businesses and local creatives and all of this stuff and highlight their stories. And I think that is, that is really important is going out and meeting the people that are producing your products. It's important to you, but is it big part of the job you enjoy doing. Yeah, I love doing that. Like, you know, I have a very, very good relationship with all of my, all of them. So like when they come into the restaurant, when I go to see them, we sit there, we have a chat. You know, I might get on their nerves sometimes because I'll be texting them at like half 12 in the evening. Like I need this for tomorrow or can we do this for next week? pass for the job though isn't it? them and for you. Yeah, but you know you get to know what each other's like but yeah, it's very very important to me that we I have that good relationship with them as well because I want I don't just want it to be business I want them you know everyone to be doing okay out of what we're doing I don't want them to you know feel like it's just transactional you know yeah, it's much more about the relationship that you have and hoping that everyone is earning and getting something. Yeah exactly that, exactly that, because there's no point saying we use local produce and we try to support local businesses if you're not really doing them any favors, know, or helping them along. Yeah, and I guess the longevity of the relationship starts to come under question if you're really turning a screw or asking too much of them or really pushing them on cost and price and everything too. And if you do that for long enough in a small enough area, you've got no one else to turn to. So you need to keep those relationships strong. I've always worked on the premise like we sort of touched on earlier, like with, I don't really tell them, you know, with the costs and things, I don't really tell them how much I want to pay. They tell me, then I decide whether I want to pay it or not. So I don't tell them how much they're worth or how much, you know, that's not my style. So I let them, you know, let them tell me what it is and then I'll decide whether we can use it or whether we can't. So then that's down to me then, rather than having this battle of like, yeah. I've never been interested in that. I think that's a good approach and it will help with longevity, won't it? think if you build those relationships on trust and authenticity and just being straight down the line, then they're the ones that last the longest. No, no. What's next for food? That's a big question. Have you got plans? it at the moment just, because I guess with what you're doing, it's very hard to take a step out and work on the business, in the business, either mentally or physically all the time. But have you got plans, plans that you're even happy to share? But what's next for you as a restaurant? Yeah, I mean, to be honest, there are lots of things that I think about daily that we can do. But for me, it's just continuing. We're in a very good run at the minute where we consistently get happy faces, happy people that want to be there. And that has always been my main goal. So to continue with that, we haven't got any plans for like huge expansions or, you know, opening up. or week and things like that. The work-life balance for me and Gemma and my team is important as well. And for me to open up any more days or do anything like that, I'm not interested. yeah, really what's next? I think we're still kind of working that out as we go along. So you don't need to have the answers, even if you're on a podcast being asked that question. It's it's just nice to think sometimes to maybe, yeah, think a bit into the future. But as you say, this transition is still so new. The evolution is still, is still happening. And yeah, for me, the biggest challenge when I think about what's next for my business is that I'm in it constantly. So having an opportunity to actually get out of it when I do have that, I don't want to be thinking about it. yeah, it's a bit. is one of the challenges of running something where you are such an integral part of keeping the gears moving. Yeah, I think where I'm still so involved in all of the menu writing, all of the planning, that I'm the only person who does it. To think of anything else outside that, because you're just focused on that all the time. You know, there's bits that we can do of picking up certain parts of our business, like lunches and things, but you know, we have to look at the realities of what we are and why people come to us. We are a special occasion. People come to us for birthdays. anniversaries like When I've eaten with you, that's exactly what it's been. Yeah. Yeah. Birthdays and anniversaries and stuff. Yeah. Yeah. No, I can understand that. I think it's very easy to get caught up in having these big grandiose plans and wanting to do the next big thing, but you have to make sure it's sustainable. You can chuck all of that at it, but if you've not tried and tested it, if you, if the demand isn't there, if the economic circumstances aren't there to support it, you're fucked. I think maybe something that we would like to work on, like was what we spoke about earlier, maybe building the brand a little bit more, tailoring it to, you know, us now. Put a bit more our stamp on it and, you know, our message and why we do it on our wire of why we do it. I really enjoyed, and I think this is where you first came up on my Instagram feed, which is where I meet a lot of the guests that end up coming on the podcast. But I think you've done a bit speaking to camera in the restaurant when shortly after John had shared a video talking about where was he in the world when he came to Mexico. So when I saw his video and then not long after you've come up and I think that was a really lovely way of just marking that changing of the guard and you definitely gave some idea of what you were hoping to do with it too. So that's really good. I think getting your face in front of a camera is so important, especially when there's a change. Yeah. mean, I'm not, I've never been against it. It's just the, you know, the right time of being able to do it when someone's sort of putting a camera in your face and you're just in the middle of service or so. I'm not. Yeah. yeah, I think it is, I think it's so important and I would like to do more of that and engage with people because they, you know, they do want to see what you're up to and a bit of behind the scenes of what you're doing in the kitchen. Cause we're just doing it all day. Yeah. And you're not actually think, there's people out there that might want to give that a little go. They might have eaten and think, oh, that's how they make that. Or, you know, that looks really good. Why don't we go in there and try it? So. Speaking purely from my own perspective, I would love to see stuff like that. Cause again, having got into food and cooking a little bit more in kind of my, I guess my early, I'm now in my late thirties, but looking at that and feeling like, I'd like a little bit of visibility. What's going on there. If you can find a way to document it, I think there's a connection and community, which in Leon C specifically is so strong. And then you build that little bit of support and then you build that regular clientele that come and see you. So I'd like to see that. Maybe that could be the next. Yeah, that could be the next thing. uh a fly on the wall sort of thing of what's happening in the kitchen. I that'd be great. What advice would you give to any aspiring chefs? get your head down and just learn. Like get in with, as we was talking about earlier in the podcast, get in with the right chef for you is hugely important. You know, like I've had many chefs, but like John was a major influence to me. He sort of taught me things that I didn't have before, like that precision side. But that's the message for... for any young chefs getting into getting with a good chef that you think that you can really learn and just get your head down and just be a sponge really. So just take whatever you can from each kitchen. Maybe, you know, my route was a bit alternative to what you do. You know, if you really want to do that at 16, then that's. You can go down an education road. oh Also, you, if you know, I see a lot of youngsters and they don't know what they want to do and just getting in the kitchen is fine. Like don't put pressure on yourself to go and get in the best college and you know, do it that way. Like get in the kitchen and just see it. Just try it. You're a living, breathing example of what can happen when you do. Exactly, yeah exactly and I'm not, you know, I'm not saying to anyone, you don't have to go to college and do it because I had to work a lot harder and it is a bit easier to get into places with, you know, you've got your qualifications and things and you do learn skills but you don't learn what the kitchen's like, you don't learn that side, you learn in a classroom, you might be doing one dish at a time, you don't learn what it's going to nothing can prep you for that. oh So if there is someone listening to this podcast now and they're thinking, Oh, do you know what? I'd love to actually work with Liam. And they don't have qualifications, but they want that experience in the kitchen. How do they reach out to you or someone like you? What's the advice you'd give to them? I guess Instagram social media now makes that so much more. Instagram and social media and like the same as like what I did with John and it shows This willingness that you know, you want to you want to be there. Yeah You know even coming into the restaurant and handing me your CV Yeah, a lot of the time we haven't got anything like most of my staff stay with us for a little while. So That retention is important though, isn't it? You don't want the knowledge all floating out of the door every six months. No, and for them as well, know, they get to learn in that environment, they get to learn from that one person. So not to move around, but yeah, definitely just reaching out and trying to get that little bit of passion that you have across. Maybe tell me something that you like cooking or you like about cooking or you like this chef and you've eaten at that restaurant. Like, tell me about something you like about cooking. It's quite easy to say, you know, I think I want to be a chef. But you know, have to be, you have to have a little bit more. something behind it. I think that's advice that's transferable to anyone looking to get into any field that they want to work in really. know, got to be hungry, got to show a bit of desire, willingness and really give a reason why someone should believe it's you for the next exactly. You sort of tweak something in their brain as well. And they think, actually, like this person really wants this. Yeah. You know, they might even make a space in there that wasn't there. You know, it might say to you like, you know, might be a couple of days a week. Yeah. Where you can come in, see if you like it. So yeah, would, yeah, for my advice would be show a bit of your passion. Yeah, that's brilliant. Is it still a regular thing where people can get into kitchens and say, I will come and work with you for free or just be in that environment? that, was that something specific to you that was part of your kind of ethos? I've had chefs come and work with us. They've messaged me and I've said, look, they've offered, I've look, I haven't got any positions right now, we haven't got any spare shifts or whatever, but if you want to come in, but then I just, for me, I just put it down to them then. They just come in and they just, it's relaxed. and they learn as much while they're there as they can and they go where they want to go within the kitchen. So yeah, but it's amazing when somebody says that, you know. But I don't know if we're in the world where people would actively go out and work for free nowadays. I think there's definitely an expectation that you want to get paid for your time, but there is a very credible experience to learn. I think if you feel like you're going to get, you know, they're going to get something out of it. they're going to learn, you know, they might come in and do that with me and they might get some recipes out of it. They might get to try things. It's definitely a two way street, isn't it? think it's mutually beneficial. is. Just interesting, as someone that doesn't work in that world and operate in that world, I think the thought of going and spending time somewhere and again, digesting that whole experience to then go on and do something or at least even make an impression. Yeah. So yeah, you're not getting paid for that, but you might look over and go, wait a minute, what are they doing over there? And it sows a seed in your mind or whoever's mind is running that kitchen. Yeah, I think there's restaurants in the world that they have these whole sections for, they call them Stagiaz. In Noma, you have to do three months. So you go there and you work for free for three months. But you were in the best restaurant in the world. Yeah. And again, I think that's really tapping into, as you say, you're not necessarily making the most money at the start. You have to have, you have to have a passion for it. You have to have a desire for it. Cause otherwise if you are someone that wants to be making X amount of money from day one, probably not the industry, industry for you. mean, we don't promote in like, stardes come into our kitchen. We've had the odd one here and there. We want to pay everyone for their time and have the staff looked after. But if they want to come and if you want to get into a kitchen and learn something, there might be a young chef that really wants to get into a certain place. They've been looking there for years and they think, how do I get in there? They've never got any jobs. just write to them, see if you can go and do a day. And that already sets you apart from the rest. Because you're willing to give a bit of your time to go and show what you can do. It's a proactive approach and one that's probably very rare at the moment. I love that. I think that's really good advice. We are gonna play a game now and I think you know what's coming. So um I put a shout out on Instagram asking for pictures of people's dinner with the goal of being playing a game called Rate My Plate. So I'm gonna ask Rob to run said pictures in. Rate my plate is gonna I'm gonna ask for a rating out of ten and don't worry, then you can be as brutally honest as you want This is good to be anonymous until I post them So I need a rating out of ten maybe a rundown of what you think it is and then a description if you want Okay, it's up to you. We'll try we'll try and keep it relatively short and sharp, but You let me know so here You could just go with a rating out of ten first and then you can tell me what you think it is Well no that looks okay. I would eat that. Maybe a 7 out 7 out of 10. So they could get, is that enough to get a job in your kitchen? potentially I'd have to try it That's why I'm pushing on that one. what do you think that dish? So it's some sort of prawn noodle dish I think that's a fair summation. don't know is the honour. didn't sanity check. It's a seven out of ten. Mum would be chuffed with that. it looks like it's got some flavor. It looks like it's really got some taste to that stuff going on. She tried. She really made an effort. Okay. So just for the listener, feel like we need to bear in mind that there are going to be people listening. This is a plate of buttered toast. Well who doesn't love a plate of buttered toast? You're talking about skill! 3 out of 10? I think that's fair. I think that's actually incredibly kind of you. Okay, but you'd eat that? Not in the kitchen though. it. I don't think there's much you can put up there, probably wouldn't eat it. I don't know. Let's see about this. Now this one made me really sad when I saw it. This was, it's a friend of mine. but it made me sad for a couple of reasons. The main one being that the food's not centered in the plate. So I don't know what you've got to say about that. That wouldn't make it into. mean there's some fish, there's fish and chips, right? Sorry for the listener again, it is fish and chips Liam. you for describing that. I didn't do a very good job. There's some kale on there as well, I believe. kale? You're serving more kale than that. Yeah, maybe a source as well. looks a little bit dry. just made me sad when I saw it. But it is, it looks like it's cooked. Okay. Yeah, but the chips look nice and crispy. Maybe a six out of 10. Okay, I'm gonna name and shame these people. I'm gonna put these up on an Instagram story, but I won't do it just yet. This one I found quite disturbing when it came up on the inbox, but try and describe what that is to people. what we're looking at, Liam's gonna... know what it is. Go for it. Is it a Yorkshire pudding like wrap? Yeah, that is what it is. I didn't know that existed. know how I can write that I can't see what's inside it. I mean the Yorkie looks pretty good. Yeah I really love that you're buying it is thank you so much this is making it a good feature is there some chicken in there? I'm gonna argue chicken, yeah? I'd go with Yeah, some chicken. I mean, if there's a bit of stuffing and gravy and roast potato in there and they're nice, then that could be a 6 out of 10 again. Is it really? do you know how we're to get a 10 first off and how are we going to go under a six? This is what I'm thinking. Well, the butt toast was definitely there. There we go. So we're looking at a bowl of noodles with some spring onions on that. Similar, similar to the first dish I'd say. There's some sauce on there. The prawns look a bit dry. Triveled up a little bit too long. I don't want to say a six again, but. I think maybe a six, because I gave the other one a seven, so that's not too far different dish. That's fair. This one is a breakfast because people started sending pictures in this morning after seeing the story too late. So this is a bowl of, do know what, it might even be the wrong way round. It's a bowl of yoghurt. There's no cooking in it, There's no cooking in it. So what does it deserve Liam? Just give it what it deserves. That's gotta go lower than toast, so... Two. Just because it's in a bowl. Yeah, okay, and they've got they've gone to the fridge at some point. It's pomegranate seeds, but there's no cooking. This, I think, is clearly someone that's got kids. It just screams to me of someone that's thought I should have taken a picture before. wow. Yeah, there's not really much to go on is there? So for the listener, we're looking at a breadboard with the crust left. Pretty much to go on is there? One! I can't believe you've one. I know that person as well, that's horrible. They're really nice here, really lovely. think they knew what they were doing. Okay, this! I mean there's no cooking on that but that looks great does look good doesn't it? think for presentation alone we can't go there's no one on it. It's better than the bowl of cereal. And if I'm going on the fact that there was cooking It's right, I guess we've got to keep it right to my plate of which... There's not even a plate! I mean if we're really being picky, there's not even a plate, it's just the board. I'm gonna go bang in the middle fire. Put a bit of effort into the presentation. So presentation is important in cooking as well. That's a, so we're looking just for the listener. There's a meat, board, cheese. There's some breadsticks on there. Some sort of chutney. Some sort of stuff on there. Okay. So that's a five. Now this is, this is a personal one. you So this is Sophie, my other half, made this. And she remembered she had to take a picture halfway through. So we're looking at a half-eaten chicken curry. It's a jar of sauce. I don't want to throw her under the bus, but it just makes it more fun. Yeah, I mean the fact that it's half eaten is making it not look too appealing. I don't think aesthetically it looks great. But if I'm given a meat and cheese border fight, I'd... There's some cooking involved Liam. Are you sure it's a four? It's a four. Okay, I won't push for higher. We're on to the last two. Now I think this is one of the best ones that came in. So what are we seeing Liam? is a risotto. and some dress, dress leaves. Yeah. But the risotto looks good. The leaves are just an addition you don't need. guess if you're playing it up in a restaurant you wouldn't stick leaves on it would you? uh But the risotto looks nice. Maybe an eight for that one. uh I'd not the person who sent that in is gonna be buzzing because he does he does see himself as a bit of chef and this is the last one we're looking at some form of with a It's a poppadom is that part of a naan as well, I think them Hut of the nine, Papa Dom, maybe some, is that some rice on there? Billard rice? Yeah, sorry, I'm expecting if you need to wear glasses, this is a shit- The curry looks good. Yep, and it's they've taken a photo of it before they started eating it That's a win. It's an additional point straight up. Seven. oh Liam, thank you so much for that. Now, obviously what would have trumped all of that is producer Rob's picture of his dinner that he ate earlier. What we'll do, we're going to stick that in the edit at some point, but producer Rob had a, what was it Rob? It was a pot noodle and curry pot noodle. The curry theme is Fish food Ben & Jerry's. Okay. Right, we've got a closing tradition on the podcast. If you've listened to any of them through to the end, which is the, which is the marker, the closing tradition on the podcast, which is my mum sends in a question on voice note for the guest. So let me get this question up. Hi Liam, how do you strike the balance between creating a beautifully presented plate of food and making sure that the customer still leaves full up? Thank you very much. m Mum's got portion sizes in her head there, I think. Now that is an incredible question, very apt to our concept, because the one criticism we've had in the past, maybe people leave feeling hungry. yeah, it's something we don't want people to leave completely bloated. That's not the point of a taste of menu kind of format, but we do have to. you know, make sure that people feel content now. So we have had to look at that and look at ourselves with that. It's a real balancing act though, isn't it? It's something that we've challenged. So maybe we've liked to specifically add what we've done. Maybe we've liked the meat course. We tend to add like a side dish. So say if we're doing lamb, we might do a little shepherd's pie in the middle. So it'll be in a know, silver tin or something like that. But then the guests can have as much or as little as they want to that, you know, if they want to finish the whole thing, it's quite starchy, quite carb heavy. So that's be a bit more fulfilling. So just things like that really. But generally, yeah, it is a tough one that a lot of high end restaurants have to deal with. you know, the last thing I want is people leaving not full out. not, you know, they paid the money and they're not content. I think, and this is going to sound like I'm really throwing my mum under the bus now, but I think my mum could eat anywhere and still go home and have a bowl of cereal at the end of the night. I don't think that was targeted at you specifically, but yeah, I guess the line that you tread between making it aesthetically something great, it's got to work cost-wise and then you've got to leave customers very happy at the end of the night and not stop. People see our photos of dishes and they're like, blimey, that's small. And we get, we've had posted a few dishes on Facebook and Instagram and they've been absolutely slated. So I my plate for you, that would have been a what? But then they don't see the concept behind it. You have in seven courses. Yeah, it's not just that plate of food. And you do some amazing wine in there as well. That helps the further on you go. but I mean the bread that we do and you know, it's all... I've eaten our menu and I mean I can eat and eat and eat and I've sat there and been like I'm full up now at the end. Especially like on a Sunday, like Sunday roast now we just, we want people to leave feeling like they've had a roast dinner. For me, having a roast dinner is you know getting on the sofa after and not being able to eat anything again. what you mean. I've not had dinner tonight Liam and I'm now starving hungry. I can feel my stomach rumbling, but I think that's great. also, know, lay the gauntlet out for anyone that's thinking about coming to visit you, go and try it. I've eaten at your restaurant and it was an incredible meal and the produce is amazing. The service was amazing. So I can only recommend it incredibly highly, but it sounds like you've got some really lovely stuff happening there. And since you've taken the reins and putting your own stamp on it. It just sounds like there's really lovely things to come. No, no, it's been great and we like to say thank you to everyone and even to yourselves for this opportunity to integrate into the community even more. It's been a pleasure and it's been so lovely of you to say yes and come in at short notice as well. So thank you so much, Liam. That was incredible. Thank you. We're done. Yeah, that was good. You smashed it, mate. Thank you.