JobsWorth - James Lawrence

On JobsWorth this week, I’m sitting down with storyteller and adventurer James Lawrence (aka Man About Country).

James is a man on a mission. Earlier this year, he set out on a 400km walk around Essex in an effort to gather, preserve, and celebrate the stories that make our great county special.

He describes the project as his love letter to Essex – and I challenge you to listen to James talk about the magic, myths, and history abundant in our little corner of the world without feeling inspired to write your own.

Expect all your standard JobsWorth fare during our chat (James went through perhaps one of the biggest career pivots we’ve discussed across sixty-plus episodes of the podcast), as well as a gripping (not a guarantee) game of Fact or Folklore.

Be sure to check out the link to the remaining dates of James’ Essex Ways Story Walk Tour in the description before you go.

Please enjoy… James Lawrence.

#jobsworth #podcast #career #worklife #storiesthatinspirechange

Tour Links - https://www.manaboutcountry.co.uk/essexwaystour

Website - https://www.manaboutcountry.co.uk

Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/man_about_country/

The JobsWorth website is here www.jobs-worth.com

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Contact the show on hello@jobs-worth.com

Chapters

• 0:00 Intro
• 2:03 From Explorer Dreams to Storytelling Reality
• 6:13 The Journey of Self-Discovery and Career Choices
• 10:03 Navigating Expectations and Career Paths
• 14:02 The Fork in the Road: Toys R Us vs. Recruitment
• 17:58 Burnout and the Quest for Purpose
• 22:01 A Lucky Break: Moving to Cornwall
• 25:59 Reconnecting with Nature and the Outdoors
• 30:00 The Birth of Man About Country
• 33:59 The Evolution of Content Creation
• 38:00 Integrating History into Outdoor Adventures
• 42:09 The Supportive Community and Building a Tribe
• 45:55 The Essex Ways Walk Project
• 47:10 The Essex Ways Project: A Personal Journey
• 50:55 Challenging Stereotypes: The Essex Identity
• 52:30 Funding the Dream: Support from Essex County Council
• 56:31 Collecting Stories: The Heart of the Project
• 1:00:04 Folklore and History: The Myths of Essex
• 1:06:40 Engaging the Community: Story Walks and Tours
• 1:10:04 The Power of Authenticity: Social Media and Connection
• 1:14:26 Advice to My Younger Self: Embracing Passion and Purpose

Transcript

0:00

They were all quite surprised when I'd suddenly out of nowhere said, I'm totally dipping to do the most ridiculous thing you've ever heard. I'm going to in the middle of nowhere in Cornwall. I might as well have said, I'm going to run a lighthouse and I'm going to go be a lighthouse keeper. think they gave me the same kind of look. you oh you oh Hello and welcome back to JobsWrath. This week... I sit down with James Lawrence, aka Man About Country. James is a professional storyteller and save for an author we've had on previously who is obviously telling stories. This is the first storyteller by job title at least that we've had on the podcast. So this was really exciting. I first came across James a few months back on Instagram. I believe he was just finishing his 400 kilometer walk around Essex. This is the mission he's on. to shine a light and highlight all the wonderful people, places and history that surround our county. And you have to sit down with James for all of 10 minutes to understand why it's him that needs to be telling these stories. He's so engaging, so enthusiastic, so full of passion about this mission that he's on, that it's hard not to get swept up in it. So yeah, we talk about some of the Standard Jobs Worth stuff, but we do spend a fair bit of time talking about this amazing project that he's working on and what the next six to nine months is going to look like for him. James very kindly shares some stories about the history of our local area, including Leoncy. Stories about witches, smugglers. I think I asked him for some mythical bits about Leoncy too. Mythical bits. I mean, this is why James is a storyteller, not me. Yeah, what he has to share about this area will really surprise you. So I hope you enjoyed the episode. If you do, get involved in the comments and stay tuned for next week. Right, so James, we're gonna kick off with the opening question on the podcast. When you were younger, what did you wanna be when you grew up? I always fancy being an explorer. Like, top of the mountain, go in the jungle, find the temple, played a lot of Tomb Raider, you know, that kind of vibe. Didn't really matter where, but, um, and then I found out that I thought everywhere had been explored and there wasn't any left, uh, exploring left to do. So that kind of fell by the wayside, but yeah, I think that was, that was probably the, vision. Nice. we'll go on to talk about what it is you're doing now, but there are definitely, there's definitely synergy between the explorer element of what you're doing and having those ideas as a kid playing Tomb Raider thinking you would have been an explorer. Were there any other inspiration or was there any other inspiration around you that got you thinking in that mindset, that kind of adventurous mindset? Any books that you were reading, any films that you were watching, anything like that? ah I was a big, I mean, I read a lot of books, played a lot of video games as well. I was really immersed in anything that was like a fantasy world. So, know, like Lord of the Rings, those films came out when I was just finishing primary school. So that perfect aged. Yeah. So stuff like that. again, playing video games was a lot of it as well. I think people usually associate kids playing video games with never leaving the house. I think ultimately it did the opposite for me. It really made me realize how magical the world was and it made me want to get outside more. Yeah, that's an interesting take on it because I grew up playing video games as well. But I also remember my mum opening the door to our house and going and me playing out for 12 hours at a time and just going out on the bike with my brother, going to build dens, going down to the woods and with spades and shovels and just digging these dens. And now you're right, the stigma attached to playing video games is that our kids are stuck in front of screens all the time and not getting those opportunities. So something shifted along the way. But it was escapism for me. And that's what fantasy has been for me. So when you say Lord of the Rings, I'm a huge Lord of the Rings fan. And just anything that made me escape from the monotony of that day-to-day life, I guess. And that's been unfair because I was very lucky growing up. But yeah, just something that was so detached from my normal life. That was what I was kind of going for. So yeah, I like that adventure explorer kind of thing. So for anyone listening, think the first thing I want to do is try and clear up what exactly it is you do, James. So how do you explain to people what it is you do? I tell people, when people ask me what I do, I tell them I am a storyteller and sometimes that I'm an adventurer. Don't do that full time, but sometimes you've just got to, yeah, you've got to lead with the bang. So, um, it's got, both of those things are quite recent. Explain what you mean by storyteller and adventurer. I'll do the quick one first. So adventurer is a very recent thing ever since I realized that I could go on walks and somehow turn it into something vaguely resembling a vocation that was going to be useful. So I thought, right, going on adventures professionally, it's not exactly ran off. Ions is not exactly Lara Croft, but still again, I'm professional and it remains to be seen. So I don't, I'm not always out on adventures. So I try to be. But the storytelling side is something that I've gotten into recently, which is either that I tell stories around campfires, do a lot of work with outdoor education, summer camps, for example, whether it's kids, teenagers, adults, um telling stories, old myths from around the world, telling British folklore and legends, things like that. um And I also lead walking tours. both in like urban environments in Bristol, for example, which is where I live, also out on Dartmoor, South Wales, taking people out and I tell people the stories that happened in our landscape when they're out in it. So, whether it's a campfire, whether it's in a pub or whether it's out on top of a mountain, I tell people stories. What I do is... When you were younger, when you were thinking about this future as an adventure or an explorer, did you ever think that you would be doing what you're now doing for a living? No way. No. When I say I wanted to be an explorer, it was in that, what do you want to be when you grow up? I want to be a princess. I want to be an astronaut. I want to be an explorer. You know, it's unless you really, you know, as soon as you kind of, get a little bit too old as a kid and you start having different thoughts about Father Christmas or whatever, and you think that's not actually going to happen. And so I don't know, it very quickly fell by the wayside. So now I... I may have wanted to be an explorer, but I never had any inkling of what it actually was that I was going to do when I grew up. And I still didn't for a very long time. So no idea that I would be sitting here now telling you this. Yeah, so take me back then, because I can imagine, let's say at 16 years of age, you weren't sat there thinking, I'm definitely going to go on to be a storyteller, which I think is just an amazing thing and probably doesn't do complete justice to what it is you are doing and the mission you're on. yeah, saying you're a storyteller at 16 years old probably wasn't in your mind at that time. So what was in your mind at that time in terms of that first step into your career, the first step into your working life, what route were you on? Let's take you back to 16 year old Joe So 16 is, I don't know, GCSEs time and yeah, like most people do, you start to have that conversation of, well, I guess I'd better spend 30 seconds thinking about the rest of my life before I go back to try not to think about it. And I knew that I wanted to go to university, although I'd be the first person in my family to have ever have done that. So it wasn't really a precedent. And then it came to like, well, I know I want to go, I don't know what, what should I study? um I guess I also thought what a lot of people think, is rather than what should I study that I'm passionate about is what should I study that's going to make me prosperous, make me a lot of money or what have you. What's a good career to have? thought I was going to do law. As my mum said, I was good at arguing. So I just, that was the best idea I had. So I thought I was going to do that. And I was so that I was on track, I guess, from like 16, 17 to do that. Um, and then I did my AS levels back when they did AS levels, cause they don't do those anymore apparently. So I did my like first year of those and I totally flunked them. And so the possibility of doing law at uni had gone well out of the window. And then I thought, right, well, plan B, I think I better guess I just study something that I'm passionate about. And that ended up being, um, classics. So that's like ancient history, ancient literature, ancient languages. Um, again, going back to that. My love of fantasy was not just in Lord of the Rings, but it was all like the old Greek myths and stuff like that. Whether it was playing games or reading them or like Disney's Hercules, all of that, you know, it was kind of there in our childhoods. And I think, you know, a lot of kids have been inspired by that. And that's what I ended up going to study. But again, I thought I would choose that degree because I know I'll be able to get a job with it. Right. Still no idea what job. maybe by the time I've finished three years at uni, I'll have figured it out. And three years came and went and I still had no idea. So you're there with a degree at that time in classics. Yes. Right. In classics. And yeah, wondering how the hell you're to put that into practice out in the world. I call it pressure, but let's say the expectations from family at the time, do you feel like you're carrying additional pressure being the first person in your family to go down that route? Or was everyone in your family being very supportive of you just making it to university in the first place? And then... They didn't really mind what you went on to do with it. It was about getting that box checked. Yeah, I would say I think mostly it was the latter. I'd say that my mum and dad were just very supportive that I was going to go to university at all. And they, they wanted me to make the most of this amazing opportunity that I had, which nobody in my family necessarily had before. So I think my dad plans to go to university and again, he didn't quite get his grades, didn't quite work out. So his career went in a different direction. So, but maybe I felt some kind of pressure and burden thinking, I know that I've got this opportunity and my parents are being very supportive and you know, going to uni and what have you. So maybe I really feel like I need to try and make it work. And although I've gone to study something that I'm really interested in, classical civilisation, when I get a job, I'd better try and get something that they're going to think is a good job and what everybody else thinks is their idea of a good career to have, rather than instantly thinking, well, what is it that I like to do? I think a lot of people probably fall foul of that. It's the expectations of other people and the well-meaning potential expectations of our family that all want us to thrive and prosper and make enough money to be comfortable. But you can kind of inherit some of that. And it doesn't sound like your parents were putting that pressure on you, but it's self-perpetuated in a way that we're just going through the cycle and we're like, no, I kind of need to do this. No one has to be telling you directly you have to do it. But society also conditions you to believe. right, now I've done this, I need to pay off the loan, which is one element of it. But then yeah, I need to get a proper job and start making some money. m So you're sat there with this degree in classics, and then what is the proper job? What's the next step for you? What's your first foray into the world of work? Well, I came out of uni and just started a real scatter gun approach. I've just got to find a job. lot of my friends went off into gap years, you know, take advantage of that time after leaving uni, but before settling into like the career path. And I thought, no, I even back then, so that would have been 2013. I had a little bit of panic of, oh, well, employers will really vet your CV and if they see that you're not 100 % committed to working, then if you've gone off and gallivanted on a gap year, if I do that, I won't get a job. So I said, no, I've got to go straight into work. No idea what I'm going to do. Fire off loads of things, scatter gun. And I actually ended up, I got two job offers and one was to be on the Toys R Us trainee management scheme. the other one was to go into recruitment with Hayes. And I got two offers at the same time and it was two very deep. was a, that was a fork in the road with two very different directions. Yeah, because again, neither of which I don't think we're going to leverage your degree in classical studies, are you? No way. I'd already made, there was no part of me that thought, how can I find a job that will? You'd already come to that conclusion. So you were comfortable with the job offers not necessarily relating to that degree by that stage. Although actually, I'll put that on pause. There is one funny story. My mum had this part-time job where she was working in, she was trading antique bond and share certificates. Like back in the day, if you wanted to buy shares in a company and you didn't have the, you know, digital whatnot to keep a record of it, you've got these like big ornate things, you own a hundred shares and there's a weirdly niche market. I was going to say it does sound particularly nice. Superniche, I used to, was a summer job, used to help her out sometimes and she had a contact. There was, I don't know what you call it, like an antique, like auction house called Spinks in London. And they were quite, quite a prestigious one. A job opportunity had come up there and it seemed like I might've been able to go straight into working for like this old like London auction firm, Bloomsbury square. Maybe I could do something with my classics, but it's also quite personable because it's like an auction house and. that was seeming like it would be a really natural continuation. And I'd kind of been referred. So I went to meet the guy, been my boss and it was all looking pretty good. And then I put on my CV that I was semi fluent in French because I'd done a French A level and he was Swiss unbeknownst to me. So right at the end of the interview, it all seemed like it was going, he was, oh yeah, by the way, um, he asked me a question in French. absolutely no idea what he was talking about. And I just sat there and went, uh, I'd completely unspoken French in three years. It even that good when I did my A levels and he went, oh yeah, called you out. Right. You've yeah, that's, that's not what you meant on the CV. So that finished that. And so if I hadn't bigged up something just a little bit too much on my CV at the time, I might've gone off to work in an auction house, which might've had something to do with classic. Yeah, well that's a lesson for anyone listening. Yeah, that's lesson. There's, you know, bit of spit and polish on a CV is no bad thing. You've got to present your best side. But yeah, sometimes people will call your bluff. Just make sure the interviewer can't actually speak the language that you're saying that you can speak so fluently. mean, that's quite an obvious, that's a bit of a pitfall. yeah, let me have fallen into that pitfall so you don't have You're a lesson for everyone else James, I really appreciate that. You're faced with this junction, Toys R Us, training management scheme and recruitment. Which path do take? Toys R Us. Right, okay. So what was the appeal? it something as simple as the pay was better, the career trajectory and it kind of aligned with that mindset you were in at the time? Or was it... I think it was two things. It was a recognition of the pressure that a lot of graduates face when they go into a recruitment career. And I don't know whether that's always true, but I knew there was a perception of kind of like a chew them up, spit them out kind of culture. you know, like pressure makes diamonds. Yeah, exactly as you say, sink or swim. And I wasn't sure if that was going to be the right kind of environment for me. I knew I was quite personable and I knew I was good building relationships with people and talking to them, but like... 100 calls a day and whatnot. Yeah, I thought that might not be the one for me. And also I remembered the joy that I felt as a kid going around toys around. Yeah, I don't know when you like, you go around the big ones and you walk in and you feel like you walked into like, yeah, again, our father Christmas's toy shop and it seems like the toys go like all the way up into the sky and you always come out with a toy or whatever. And I thought I would like to make to give that gift of joy to other kids that I once felt. So I kind of liked the idea of working and helping that to happen is some way in which I'm giving, I'm not just working a job, but maybe I feel like I'm giving back in somewhat. never thought it would be anything to do with kids. So I think that also just swayed me. Pay wasn't going to be as good career trajectory. mean, it was going to work in retail rather than recruitment. So it definitely wouldn't have been the most high paying one, but that's the... That's kind of a heart-led decision, isn't it, really, if you're driven by that nostalgia and that, yeah, you're motivated by this idea of being able to give something or create magic for people, which again, there's synergy there with what you're doing now too and what's driving you, I would assume, as we're going to discuss. Okay, how long were you doing that for? Just under three months. Yeah. Thought recruitment was going to chew me up and spit me out. Then I think it probably would because Toys R chewed me up and spit me out. I not last very long there at all. The one at Lakeside. The one that's close to here. Yeah. So again, I remembered always going there as a kid. And then I like went in and was like, everything seems a lot smaller now. And I hadn't appreciated so much that it was, I don't know if, yeah, I guess it was always like an American corporation. And so it was run like an American. corporation and like every single penny got pinched and the magic was not there behind the scenes. quickly. think what do they call it? When you see how the sausage is made, it changes your perception of everything very quickly. Yeah, wow. So connect the dots for me then because you mentioned in both we did a call a month or so ago now in preparation for you coming on and on your form as well that I asked people to complete before they come on and sit down with me. You mentioned working up in a city, you mentioned this on your website as well, but working up in a city, having a job in London and that you realised that you, what was the wording? I think you were too burnt out to enjoy any of the, I guess the rewards you were getting from the job you were doing. So can you connect the dots for me to give me an abridged version to take me up to that point if that's okay? Yeah, so I left Toys R Us, back to Square One, ended up getting into a graduate role, a sales role for a, there was called a business intelligence firm. And then I was working in the city in London, so I did like quite a traditional sales job. um So that was kind of what I got like, I only did that job for about six months, but yeah, kind of like got me into like a bit of a sales mindset, I guess. um Then I got into a proper grad scheme. I worked for John Lewis. First of all, I was a manager in two of their department stores, the one in Stratford Westfield and the one in Bluewater. Again, kind of thinking I quite like that customer interaction side of retail. You bringing people in, you... I you're those soft skills that you very clearly got and that ability to connect with people. Yeah, exactly. So then I kind of went back to that route and was a manager on the shop floor, had a really good time and enjoyed it. But I thought, no, this is not for me long term. I'm going through all of these jobs thinking maybe this is the one that wasn't the one. Oh yeah, maybe I'll jump out of this and go into that. No, this is also the one. It's almost like that magpie mentality and maybe something shiny over there is going to connect with me and then I'm going to sink my teeth into that and that's going to be the career, the proper job, the career that I can then start focusing on. like that Magpie mentality. this Magpie hopping went on for a little bit longer. And then I went to work in the John Lewis head office, did a few different roles there, marketing, customer experience, and the company were great. And I was doing well within the company. But then I guess to perform so well that I could try and rise up the ranks as quickly as possible. That's when I started to feel burnt out because I was working really hard, but I also did not have that underlying passion of why am I working hard? I get to the end of the week. What I've done a lot this week, but what have I done this week? If I hadn't been here, anything have really made a difference? And without that kind of driving force for while you're working, coupled with, I also do not feel that this is something that I want to be doing long-term. And now I'm like five, six jobs deep at this point. And I'm thinking I'm... I'm like 25 at 24 25. I still have not figured out if this isn't what I want to do and I clearly don't like it What is it that I want to do and I'm still none the wiser It was the what what is it that I want to do? With my time as a career. What do I want to do in my life? And what do I want to do to help people? That was the defining question of my 20s and I still had no idea it was it was absolutely crazy. Yeah Because you can get yourself into a real spiral when that question is driving you all the time. Because it sounds that you were on the search for some kind of purpose-led role and you weren't connecting with that. You just weren't getting that. Or you weren't able to make the connection with the job you were doing and seeing the impact of the role that you were doing in the right way. So you got to that point then. What made you make the decision to step away from that? It was a lucky break actually. was the universe served me an opportunity rather than me going out to look for it. So I always say I kind of feel like I got saved. I was actually at my wit's end. I was thinking about packing it in and taking my money and one way ticket to Thailand and maybe I'll... Maybe I'll find myself in Thailand and, or maybe I'll just blow all my money in nine months. And then I'm in exactly the same boat, except now I haven't got any money. Yeah, exactly. So that was, I was clearly running out of ideas. And, I was offered a job with a, there's a distillery in North Essex called the English spirit distillery. they're like, mate, they've been making like craft vodka, craft gin, craft rum, what have you. We found out about them because we became really big fans of them and we would like be their biggest customers. And they were building a new distillery down in Cornwall. And my mum actually worked for them at the time. And the guy running the distillery said, where am I going to find someone who not only is got a good knowledge of sales and retail, but is like capable across the board. Um, someone that's going to be able to go down and run that whole operation that I can trust knows the product really well. And, um, also is going to be happy to make a move down to the Southwest and the really remote light on the border of Cornwall and Devon. Where, where the hell am I going to find someone like that? Yeah, I know. So I got a lucky break, got offered that job and everyone in thought John Lewis, I'm sure thought I was absolutely mental when I told them what I was doing. were like, are you sure what the, what the, you know, what on earth are you doing? But. Yeah, did that. so, yeah, one week I was living in a little shoebox flat in zone two in my land, working that job. And then the next week I was living in a cottage in near Launceton in Cornwall by myself doing this job. And yeah. It was the ultimate remix. Yeah. Because you mentioned that on your website, that that's what you did. You went from that flat in Zone 2 to a cottage in Cornwall. And how much did the voices of the people around you, were they vocal? Other colleagues in John Lewis at the time, were any of your family saying, kind of questioning, sat there going, what are you doing? Were your family supportive? Were your colleagues supportive in the end of you making that move? think my family were supportive because they could see how burnt out I was from working at John Lewis. And it had gotten to the point where, when I went home to be with my mum and dad in Kelvedon, they could just see that I was miserable and that I was having to summon all of my energy every day to go in and work for like 10 hours a day and to put on a big facade. And I think even at the time, even I didn't realise how that energy depleted I was for the rest of the day. Now I couldn't even really go out and enjoy London in the evening, which is the whole reason I wanted to work in London. And I do also say that I think I was burnt out because I was going out and enjoying myself so much in London, because there's so much to do, you know, four out of five nights of a week, even if it's just, let's go for a walk down South Bank and enjoy the view, have a pint. So it's not even like you're going out and going to a 200 pound restaurant or getting wasted or what have you. I, yeah, I was, I almost couldn't help myself. London was just so in. intoxicating. So that's kind of like that's kind of like that's on me. So but yeah, so my family were then very supportive of if they weren't if they would have otherwise maybe said, well, you know, your trajectory is probably not going to be quite as good in the financial sense. If you leave the John Lewis job. Are you sure they could just see that? No, they could see that that was something that was going to be right for me. So family very supportive. Colleagues, I mean, they were openly supportive, but I think they were also thinking, is he mad? He's doing so, he's doing so well here. I think I was in my like, in my management tier, cause you know, sometimes they have like tiers in companies for like, you know, like, or like, like bands in the NHS, guess it was equivalent to that. I was one of the youngest people to be in my band at the time. I'm not, I'm not trying to toot my own horn or whatever, but that's just. It's saying because yeah, I'm asking the opinion of colleagues and peers at the time. If they're seeing this young person that's climbing the ranks quickly, they might be thinking you're onto something big. perception was I was doing well and also the perception was I think if anybody from John Lewis heard this they were probably, it wasn't like I was going to work and I was clearly miserable, I was putting on a face and I of a facade that you would... know, we'd go out drinking in the evening and, know, I really enjoyed working with my teammates and it was, we worked in a small team and it was, yeah, they, you know, they weren't the issue. So I think they were all quite surprised when I'd suddenly out of nowhere said, I'm totally dipping to do the most ridiculous thing you've ever heard. I'm going to in middle of nowhere in Cornwall. I might as well have said, I'm going to run a lighthouse and I'm going to go be a lighthouse keeper. I think they gave me the same kind of look. That's incredible. was also maybe a challenge to them. Maybe there were some other people thinking the same as me. I'm sure there were a few other facades in that job because it was a high pressure environment we were working in. And for me to say, actually, I'm just going to totally flip the script and go and do something totally different. They would almost think, is that is that even a possibility that? Sure. if you put enough people in a room and, yeah, give them your story or use you as an example, you're to get a good chunk of those find that really inspiring. Some are going to be envious because maybe they want to do that, but they never have. They never have had the confidence or the opportunity to do it or the perceived opportunity to do it. But yeah, if I were, if I'd have been around you at the time, I would have been like, my God, like both championing that, but also inspired by that. Cause it shows Oh, I don't need to be stuck here. This is what this podcast is all about. You don't need to be stuck in a job that you are not even a job that you hate, but a job that isn't getting, that you're not getting purpose from, or you're not getting joy from. You can really enjoy the work that you're doing. doesn't have to necessarily be the goal, but if someone is sat there in the same situation you were, which is what is my purpose? What am I really achieving? Then your story acts as inspiration for someone that might just need that nudge off the fence, like get on the other side of it and make the leap. Yeah. The reality of that though, you're moving from London to Cornwall. So we are talking about both distance wise, it's a departure, culture down there, the whole environment is completely different. But you explain that period of your life as reconnecting with the outside world, with nature. How much did you need to do that at the time that you got there? And did that recognition that that was happening come quickly for you getting out of the city? I think so. I've always known that I have liked the outdoors. I was very lucky. I Kelvedon's a great village. It's got like fields you can go and play in the meadows after school, making dens and stuff like that. So I was lucky that I had a childhood involved there. Went to university in Swansea in South Wales, never been to Essex before. Sorry, never been there from Essex with the Gavin and Stacey thing, but all of a sudden there's like mountains and like waterfalls and all this cool stuff that we don't. have really have an East Anglia. I, even at that point I was going out and spending a lot of time outdoors, but then it all kind of fell with the wayside a little bit in London. And I had a lot of friends who lived in Devon and Cornwall and I would go and visit them sometimes. And I would just think you guys are living the life. I mean, a lot of worked in the NHS, they were working hard. we're watching up to you this weekend. yeah, we're just gonna. for a hike on Dartmoor, then we're going to take the paddle boards out in like the English Riviera and then yeah, I don't know. We're just, yeah, I would think these guys have got the work-life balance is much better. They might be working hard, but they were, they were chilling hard, hard and chilling hard. There's already a of a law to get down there anyway, because you're hearing these stories from your friends and thinking about what life could potentially be like. Exactly. So I kind of that vision was already in my head, but I, yeah, I hadn't appreciated how much I would benefit from being able to spend so much time outdoors until I got down there. I think it took me at least, I mean, I enjoyed it straight away, but I'm in terms of how burnt out I was, I'd say it took me at least six months to really start decompressing. And the realisation of how burnt out you were, did that come from then changing your environment completely and then just realising, God, I needed this to recharge? Yeah. I knew I was burnt out in London, but the amount of time it was taking me, you know, three months into living in Cornwall, I'm thinking, God, I'm almost still a little bit burnt out. I'm enjoying myself, but I now I'm really realizing how deep this goes and really affirming that I had made the correct decision to do what I did and leave. You're making that move, how old were you at the time? 25. 25. So you're completely moving away from family and the friends that you've got in this part of the world too. How did that feel? Did you feel exposed at all? Or did you very quickly build your own tribe in that neck of the woods? As I said, I was lucky that I knew people. I had a lot of really good friends dotted around Devon and Cornwall. If I hadn't already known people down there, I think trying to build a tribe from scratch would have been a very difficult thing. I think the opportunities to be able to go out and socialise and find new friends and do that whole, anybody looking for a friend? Because I'm looking for, yeah, that kind of thing. I think that's quite difficult. It's no London, is it? Where you've got those opportunities on every corner or every 10 feet. And I had friends in Exeter, Plymouth, Truro, in every direction, but I was like a 45 minute drive from any town. I was really remote and I was living by myself. So I was having to constantly commit to driving for 45 minutes to go to the pub and have a pint with someone for two hours on a Tuesday evening and then drive all the way home. But that, just quickly, yeah, it was a small price to pay, both in terms of the petrol and my time in return for like... you would go to the pub and then you were on the sea front in Plymouth, not dissimilar from here, like cobbled stones looking over, lapping waves, or in a lovely historic building in Exeter, and it's just lot more chilled out, than, yeah, hustle, hustle. So how did the job go when you transitioned down there? So you've got this job, how did that go in the early days? Um, really good. I was living on site and, there was a, my boss had bought an old agricultural barn and he wanted to convert that into a distillery with a, do it with a retail space, shop, cafe, doing tours, what have you. So that's where I came into it. I was going to be doing that. I was going to oversee the visitor side and then run it when it was open. we thought we were going to get planning permission as soon as I went down. it was like, yeah, planning permission will be in like a month's time. You come on board now, that's fine. And then we'll get going. And then there were delays. I think it actually ended, was about 18 months that those planned. was a, yeah, there was a lot of back and forward, which I should not, that's a story that we will not waste time on now. So I actually ended up spending a lot of time just working on other areas of the business. Like, well, now I'm here, you know, I'm on the payroll and We didn't think it was going to be 18 months. We were constantly thinking it was going to be like two months away. So not enough to think, James go away, do something else. But then I got involved in other areas of the business, like, redesigned the website, put up, did property, know, set up property, e-commerce, and like, we did a rebrand of the business looking at marketing. basically found myself stuff to do, which is never self useful, but in a really nice way of. I. Yeah, I'd done marketing before, done sales before, but this was almost starting to be led from a little kernel of my passion of like, okay, I've got to find myself something to do. So what is it I want to do? And fortunately, cause I already knew the brand cause we used to buy all their stuff. So I'd say, yeah, well I, I can see that it would be really good if we pushed that product or let's give that a little tweak. And all of a sudden it was my ideas that were almost not coming from my head, but very slowly starting to come from the heart. thinking it would be good if we did that. And so I guess that was the start of that journey. Because you're a consumer of their product, so you are really good testing ground, aren't you, to think, okay, well, I consume the products, I like the brand already, but what are the changes we can make? So you're just putting those into practice and that's a great proving ground for that brand. You sound like you're enjoying that work. How much did living in a different environment help that? So let's say if John Lewis were allowing you to live in Cornwall and I don't know, in a world where maybe they were allowing a bit more remote work or a hybrid work or anything like that. Do you think the environment you were actually based in at the time, so going home to a flat in London when you're working for John Lewis, if you were going home to the Cornish countryside, to a Cornish cottage, having the Cornish weekends, do you think it would have been any different for you? you, you know, that's what I'm trying to get. There would have been a little bit different. I mean, uh I'm going to put the wood burner on, there's always going to be anything better than living in a flat and mild end. yeah, living, you know, it was a really nice, it was a very peaceful environment. again, I, for some people, I'm sure they would have been climbing the walls, but actually I took to that quite easily. And, you know, I would go and see people like two nights a week, but then otherwise, you know, see people at the weekends. But I was quite happy thinking I'm in the middle of absolutely nowhere. this is lovely. Maybe it's because I was burnt out. it's because I think, oh, I get so quiet. so I'm the environment would have helped if I was working remotely, but even the thought of working remotely and still jumping on six hours of zooms a day to talk about KPIs and you know, oh, you know, we need to work really hard on this thing that is ultimately so pointless that we're half the effort is we're actually trying to articulate what is it we're doing? Why is this important? We need to tell people. Everyone's trying to work this out. and rearrange the jargon to make it like, yeah, so you know, you just sit there on a call and you'd, no matter, I could be in like, I could be in the Taj Mahal, I could be in a palace with someone waving me with a big pard leaf and I'd still be sitting there going, my God, this is... That's a way of framing it. Yeah. I was trying to get to that point of kind of the nature of the environment, I think matters. But as you say, just the work that you were doing at that point, yeah, you need to get some value out of it. You need to get some purpose out of it. And it just sounded like that disconnected completely by the time you'd gone to Cornwall. So it was a great move. So what was the catalyst for Man About Country. So you're doing this job in Cornwall, you've made that move, you're reconnecting with nature and the outdoors and finding yourself again, it seems, going from burnout to maybe the James that you'd want, the default James that you'd want to be. So how far into that journey, for want of a better word, did Man About Country come around? So it was, so I moved down there in 2017. It was, uh, it was, so it was during lockdown that I was down there in Cornwall and all of a sudden, you know, lockdown kick in is quite isolating. And fortunately for me, what, what was the rule? Like what you do daily exercise, can go out from your house. Maximum of an hour, I think, during the deepest darkest lockdown, I may have been isolated, but one hour from my house was like Bobman Moor, like actual like national, not national park, Bobman Moor's not a national park, but like forests, woodlands. There was so much of it that people never went there. Really like kind of like wild spaces. And I didn't really ever go on hikes by myself that much. I mean, I lived by myself, but I would still meet up with friends to do that. Cause I just thought, I dunno, maybe I would have thought that. hiking by yourself was a bit weird. And when I started doing it by myself, then I realized, especially with how much other stress was happening to us all collectively as a society because of lockdown and COVID, I realized just how important the outdoors was. And moving down from London and getting away from burnout a few years previously, yeah, sure. But I thought, yeah, okay, a cottage and a job that I care about would do that. But this was really showing me that, it is just spending out time. outdoors, sunshine, fresh air, bare feet on the earth, swimming cold water, what have you, of that, all of that really, you know, ABCs of being outdoors. That is what was sustaining me and keeping me going and helping me to thrive. And that is what made me think I am hugely benefiting from this. I need other people to benefit from this. again, I could feel that well of passion. could just. I'd never been, you know, I'd never been a done marketing, but I'd never done content creation or anything like that. Or, I felt the urge. I was out in these places thinking, how do I get other people to get out here? I'm how do I get people to experience what I'm feeling right now? Because this is medicine and I just, this, yeah, I need to, I wasn't, I didn't have an inkling that that was going to be my main vocation yet. It was student. I've got a vacation. I'm trying to build a bloody distillery. I've, you know, I'm tied up enough, but. how do I get people to do this? And that's where the Man About Country. So did it start with videos on Instagram? Is this how you become an advocate for the outdoors and this kind of prescription for trying to beat all the ways that we can potentially feel? Was it Instagram you took to first? Was that a form of social media? It was Instagram, but it was most, it actually started off, um, I had a blog, so I was like writing pieces. So, and I, and I also thought this is quite good for me because I can, I have always worked for other companies and figured out how can I promote their product using their voice? What is the voice of this brand? How do we sound like what the product would sound like if it could talk or whatever, whereas this was useful exercise in, well, what is my voice? What do I think? Not what does John Lewis think or what does the English Spirit Distillery think? So I thought, you know, I'll write pieces like that. And I made an Instagram page, but mainly just put photos on to point people to the articles I was writing. And then over the years, I started to realise, okay, if this was about me and helping me to find my voice and hone my writing skills at the beginning, who's... actually going online to read a blog piece, especially from somebody, it's not like I've already got a really big following and who's going to read a blog piece. And while that should never stop anyone from creating and making art, I thought, the reason I'm doing this is because I'm trying to reach people and making videos on Instagram was definitely not my first thought. And that side of social media was not something I'd ever really thought about. Then eventually I thought, well, it's, it's making videos that get people to engage. more than just putting up photos or doing blog pieces. And so then that's how I started to very tentatively dip my toe into making reels and stuff, as opposed to like, that was how I got into it full stop. So it was a very roundabout way of coming to it. you When did history start coming into it? So you've done this classical studies degree. I would imagine that the content you were first putting out there was about connecting or reconnecting with nature and wildlife and being outside. When did the historical angle start to get introduced or was that permeating the kind of content you were putting out there early days? Maybe a little bit, but early days was definitely, it was more nature connection focused. was the benefits of going for a walk, benefits of being outdoors, benefits of, I don't know, fresh air, forest bathing, all of that stuff. And I think it was slowly, but I thought that that was my project. Right. Thinking about, right, let's not try and get this too confused. What is the brand? We're trying to get people out in nature, talk about nature. And then it was like my own passion for history and my God, this church is 900 years old. That's awesome. Wow. This stone circle is three thousand years old. That's amazing. It's like it was starting to like I'd shut it up in the wardrobe and it was starting to bang and like come out and I couldn't quite suppress it. Yeah, I think it was so it would just kind of like come out like that. And so then I would start bringing in history a little bit. And then I kind of accidentally accidentally fell on a path of OK, well, I studied Greek and Roman history and I know all about the Egyptians and I know all about like Norse mythology and all that stuff that we're shown in like games and books and films when we were younger. What about British mythology and what about British history beyond like Winston Churchill or Elizabeth the first or Henry the eighth and uh colonial project and all that stuff? What about the, yeah, that part of British history when we did really used to live really close with the land, whether it was the people building the stone circles or whether it was the people who were doing mad. May Day celebrations and all of that stuff. And I then started to realise there is a whole British history, not just about the Kings and Generals and the textbooks, but of like people like me and people like us and how we used to, these people weren't thinking, how can I find the time to go out for a walk for a month and get the benefits of being in nature? They didn't think that because they were just out in nature doing it all the time. that, yeah, that kind of history almost in like a radical way. I started finding that really interesting and then that started becoming more of my walks as well and Okay, because you, so the social media element was you advocating and getting building a following and then the actual starting to do walks, which again, you looking back on you as a kid wanting to be an explorer ever seeing yourself actually running walks and leading walks and talking about history and engaging and captivating people to stories that you're telling. When did that, when did that start to happen? from in a bit of an accident, it came from my friends actually, who basically big me up to do it. you know, sometimes if it's like someone's having a birthday and you rent an Airbnb and you go like, we're to go stay at Dartmoor for a weekend or so and so's up at Peak District, we rent this house and we do that. And like, you know, sometimes you go for a walk and it's like, yeah, come on, let's go and see the area. And we'd go on walks and we go for like a little two hour trip. And I'd think, but guys, we're not even seeing the best bit. Like, come on, we've all driven like four hours, come to the Peak District and there's all this amazing stuff and what we're not going to go and look at any of it. And so then I would start to plan the walks and say, right, we are actually, we're all going to drive. We're going to go here. And then when we go here, I'm going to tell you about why I've dragged you here. And this tour has a piece of history attached. And this is a very specific kind of tree. It's only the part of this world. And I just started doing it for my mates because I was really interested in it. So I guess that. kind of was passion led rather than thinking about a vocation. And I did that more and more and my mates would say, you clearly really enjoy this and we really enjoy this. You should do this for a job. And they just told me that enough times and eventually it stuck. And I thought, yeah, you know what, I should do this for a job. And then, then I thought I've got my online brand where I make content to try and get people involved in nature. And then I thought, well, yeah, why not do it? Why not do it in person? So. Wow, what a supportive group of friends too because a supportive group of friends. It sounds like an amazing tribe of people that you've got because I imagine and I'm not I'm not detracting anything from my friends, but if I started to do that, I think I'd just be heckled. Definitely wouldn't be as supportive as your friends were. But again, you could you could argue that I don't have the talent for it that you do. They must have seen something in you and wanted to nurture that and that ability and that talent that you've got for storytelling. But yeah, I'm just imagining what that group of friends must be like and you can see in your face that they just seem like a great group of people. I think any of that initial like, what is he doing? Like, why are we? Oh my God, this is like, yeah. Any of that. All right, mate, what are you playing at? Like I think is disabled A because they could just see it. Maybe they were. And I just had no idea because I was enjoying myself too much and they could see that and I was in the zone. Which is no bad thing. But then I guess also maybe they saw that I had no one was paying me to do this. I could have just gone along with, yeah, let's go for an hour and a half. walk with like a tinny and then we'll go to a pub and then back to the house. And I was going out of my way to do this for people. And so they would see, actually, you know, he's putting in a, he's putting in a little bit of work here. then funnily enough, you'd get out to the place and people would go, Oh, this is actually really cool. Yeah. This is a really nice view. When was the last time I did this? Wow. Okay. And then by the end, everyone's like, when are we going to do the next one? And I guess that energizes you then to go and carry on and keep that kind of fire stoked. Exactly. Okay, brilliant. So you're now, so you're five years into Man About Country now. Is that right? Yeah, there were thereabouts. So I first came across your Instagram page when you were promoting the Essex Ways walk that you did. Can you just explain for anyone that doesn't know what it is? Can you explain what it is? I never knew that it existed. So could you give us a brief rundown? project. Yeah, so the project, so is it the Essex Ways Walk your own project or is there a route around Essex that is a known route or did you create this, curate this route yourself? Um, bit of both. of it already existed and part of it was, yeah, I kind of like made it up. So talk to us about the project then if that's okay. So the Essex Ways is a project that it's my baby, but I have been funded to do it by Essex County Council's Art and Cultural Fund. So I've been working with them, but it's been me that set it all up. It started with me walking 400 kilometres around Essex, partly the Essex Way, which was an existing long distance footpath from Epping M25 all the way to Harwich on the coast, so kind of inland. And I wanted to do the project to show how many different sides there are to Essex. every one of them is a place that you could go and visit with loads of cultural history and lovely landscapes and places to really celebrate the fact they're part of Essex. But there's so many of them that I wanted to walk through them and be able to show them off. And just walking the Essex way, I thought, well, how can I talk about Essex without walking along the coastline? So then I added my own route, which was to walk from Harwich down most of the coastline with a few little inland bits. And then I would finish at Tilbury docks. So that was about 400 kilometres, 250 miles. 21 days. Okay. Eight days. I did eight days from Epping to Harwich. Then I had a week off and then I did 13 days from Harwich down to Tilbury. Right. And my motivation for the project was from it was only when I left Essex and especially living in Cornwall that I really understood how much of a negative stereotype there was about Essex. And especially in Cornwall, you tell anybody where you're from, they say, where in Cornwall are you from? I say, I'm not, I'm actually from Essex. Didn't you tell? And people go like treat it like it's a swear word. People practically spit on the ground. go, ugh, Essex, Essex is horrible. Essex is disgusting. Essex is nothing but... concrete and orange people with dogs in their handbags and everyone, know, people used to tell me you can't possibly have any respect for the countryside because you're from Essex. I think some of them it was, they think they're bantering, but you know, it all builds up. And, I was, I've got some really quite nasty comments and I knew that that's maybe not to such an extreme, but that is how that is the perception of Essex from around England, because that has been fed by the media. over the years and like any self-respecting Essex person, I started to get my back up and say, I have had it with this. That is if you knew 10 % of what my home county was like, you wouldn't be saying that. And so I wanted to do this project just to show off Essex and all its glory and not to like do a bit of like a thumb at the people in Cornwall to get my own back. It was to show the people of Essex who also just get fed this stuff in the media and maybe start to believe, well, maybe this is all, yeah, maybe this is all we have got in Essex. just how lucky we are to live here and how much we've got to celebrate. So I wanted to do big project to see as much of it as I could, as many different natural landscapes, as many different historical sites, speak to as many different people as I could and ask them not only what used to happen here in Essex, but also what life is like in Essex right now, and just to collect stories. Yeah, I have to say the enthusiasm and the energy you've got is infectious. Again, I started looking at your Instagram videos and I was just thinking, I am guilty of believing some of the stigma and stereotype about Essex. I describe myself as having a mixed relationship with Essex and I've thought about getting out of the county before and going exploring other places and living somewhere else and who knows, maybe one day that will happen, but actually having pride for the county that we live in. there is something about the stigma and the stereotype. I think we mentioned when we were doing a bit of prep for this that I've got family in the States and I remember going to visit them and they'd say, how's Essex? Or you'd meet their friends and where are from? outside London. Whereabouts? Essex. And even they know the stereotype. know, West Coast America. It's crazy. 5,000 miles away and they're still telling you what Essex is like and they know all about it and they would yeah, it's just yeah that's when you know that there's something up and But just seeing your videos has given me that kind of mental shift towards, yeah, actually I can feel pride where I'm from, but you need someone with your, yeah, it's energy. I'm just going to say energy to really ignite that spark again and make people sit and go, wait, take stock and understand what's on your doorstep. So it's an incredible project and- an incredible feat to have done and to have done that under your own steam. Amazing that Essex County Council funded it. What was the process like? Did you knock on their door? How do you even go about doing something like that? I didn't know that things like that existed until comparatively recently. I decided I wanted to do this project and that I was like, right, well, I'm going to do this walk and I've got this like, I had this, it was quite, it wasn't a huge social media following. Like I wasn't like posting, I was only maybe posting videos once a week. So it wasn't like that was like my full time thing, but I thought, okay, I've got a bit of a platform and I'm going to showcase this and I want to try and show people in as many mediums as possible. all this good stuff that I know I'm going to find. And then somebody told me, you do realize there are like organizations that will give you funding for people who have got arts projects and you know, they'd arts council England, you can do that. Essex County Council, I found out have their own art and cultural fund where every year they will give away money to people who come up with ideas for arts projects that are somehow going to culturally benefit the people of Essex. And I've, yeah, like I'd been getting into storytelling and I got, you know, I like the arts, but I'd never thought of myself as like an artist or anything like that. And then I found, and I found this out and they, their deadline was like three weeks away for applications for projects in 2025. And what had become something of a personal project that I was going to document in social media grew like arms, legs, and another set of arms and legs. And all of a sudden I thought, right, well, okay, I'm going to have collected all these stories. I write them in a book and oh, I'll ask them for budget to get my friend Tom, who's a filmmaker, to make a film about it. And I'll record people's stories and put them in the Essex Sound and Video Archive to preserve the voices of Essex residents, what we all sound like in 2025 for future generations when it all changes. Had all these mad ideas and yeah, stuffed it all in a big application and sent it off with a punt thinking there's no way they're going to buy this because I've never done an arts project before. And they came back and said, yeah. the whole thing. oh And I didn't think they were gonna, I thought they'd say like, yeah, do the, do the book, but not the film or do the walk and do the interviews, but just that. they said, now do the whole lot. We want the whole buffet. That is great. Yeah. Did that put additional, obviously it must have put additional pressure on you at that point because you realise now I've actually got to follow through with this, this thing that I've promised. I now need to deliver on it. Completely different pressure from working for a big corporation or anything like that. But did it tarnish, amidst all the joy of it and feeling like you've won, did it tarnish the experience at all? Knowing, oh, I've got, there's some expectation on me now. I would say the pressure was definitely there because I said, I've just agreed to write a book and I've never written a book before and I have absolutely no idea. And that still stands. that's that is that that was a problem for July. But it so the pressure was there, but the the passion just overwhelmed it. And ultimately, the idea as soon as I found out that they were going to fund that and that's what I was going to spend my twenty, twenty five doing. And again, We talk about like, you want to work hard on something, but like, what is it you want to work on that you can like take all this stuff you've got inside you and do something that you feel is going to help people in a way that is true to you. And I realized I'm going to be an explorer and I'm going to like, I tell people like, yeah, if someone says in primary school, you know, what do you want to do when you grow up? at the most mad thing ever. I want to be an explorer and I want to be an adventurer and I want to like walk around and I want to like chat with people and like. have pints with them and people are going to like buy me drinks and I'm going to buy them drinks and I'm going to tell stories and visit all these cool landscapes and yeah, come up with the most mad plan possible. And somebody said, yes, we're going to pay you money so you can spend the whole of 2020 and 25 doing that. Thanks very much. The idea that this is something that I was going to be doing as a temporary vocation. That was it. There was, yeah, there was pressure, but that realization was just too much of a golden thing. to really tarnish it at all. Again, it's so inspiring and I think it's going to be quite an eye-opener for other people that might be sat there thinking that they've got these projects or these initiatives that they want to try and do themselves and to know that funding exists. there's something, I mean, it really is infectious when you're talking about it. You can't help, I want to sit up taller and I just want to lean forward to hear what you're saying, which is incredible. I guess it's an important aspect of what it is you're doing. You want to grip people, you want to have them engaged with the message you're putting out there. And it's amazing. So you've done, you've completed the walk itself and now you're starting your tour of story walks. Which we are going to shed some light a little bit more on that as well. But I wanted to ask, and this is a completely self-serving question, what is one of the most interesting stories that you've picked up along the way of a whole collection of stories? And I don't want any... I don't want to give away any spoilers to the book that you're going to go on to write as well. But can you share one of the more interesting tales that you've picked up along the way? Yeah, I mean, because the nature of the project is I was looking for not only like the old stories and like the folklore and the history or the magical stuff, but also the story, the contemporary stories of people who were alive and like tell me about what it has been like to live in Essex. And I was going to try and glue those together and find the commonality and be like, you can look at how actually Essex and the mythical side of Essex, which we've lost a lot of, but how it is actually still alive in Essex today. And so I think some of the most interesting stories I found were um the people I met who told me their stories of stuff that had happened to them. there was, there's a place not far from Epping, not far from Epping Forests called Dial House. And there's two people that live there, Penny Rimboard and Guy Voucher, who used to be in a punk band in the seventies called Crass. And they were in this like, it was like really like, it was super punk. They didn't even have a record label. They were like really anti-capitalist. They had this huge following because they were so like F the system or whatever. And they ultimately ended up doing a complete flip and they bought this old house in the middle of this gorgeous countryside in again, not far from Epping, which again, is not a lot of people realize that this beautiful country countryside there. And they ran it as a bit of a commune. And they bought this house, did it up and they kind of used it as a base whether they were still doing the band or anything else in that kind of anti-capitalist theme. And the stories they were telling me of the successive waves of people who have tried to kick them off their land and how they've had to really fight, whether it's big corporations or whether it's kind of almost mafia tactics from like... corporations, but they're sending in muscle men to try and kick them out on all this really dirty stuff to try and intimidate them out and now they'd have to like fight for their land. yeah, I know that's, that's not like a proper, yeah, that's not like a proper eloquent story, but like the story of how, yeah, people living in Essex has had to use like what they called like old East End spirit of like coming together in community with people and bringing, we talk a lot about people from London move into Essex and that's what a lot of people in Essex say, you know, we're not from that bit of Essex that's close to London, that's proper Essex and people sometimes look down on that, but that was a story that illustrated is because they bought that spirit of London into the countryside of Essex and then work with all the people in the local area that helped them to like stop all the land being turned into like two golf courses or just developed into like a crap housing estate or what have you and yeah. It was a story of London and Essex, new Essex and old Essex coming together and producing something brilliant. And that's, like you say, that's part of what you're trying to do, knit those two different periods of time together to see what flows between it and what the synergy is or what the crossover is. Yeah. Okay. Have you got any kind of folkloric type tales that you can share as well that you've picked up along the way? Maybe something that you didn't know before you set off on your, on your journey that you picked up that is more kind of tell signpost a little bit more back to our past where, there's folklore and, as you say, the mythical side of the county. Again, this is arrogance speaking, not arrogance, sorry, this is ignorance speaking, but I do not associate ethics with anything mythical. Can you prove me wrong on that? Yes. Yes, I can. Maybe it's because I'm passionate about busting the stereotype of Essex not being a mythical place. Maybe it's just because I read and watched and played a lot of fantasy growing up, but I'm really interested in like the magical aspect of Essex's history. And some people know about the Essex witch trials in the 1500s and the 1600s when back when there was like lot of hysteria about witches and Essex persecuted and executed more women for the crime of witchcraft than anywhere else in the UK. It was really rife here. A lot of women unfairly accused and tried of witchcraft and that's what I won't go into that now. And so some people know Essex for having a bit of a witchy history for that, but Essex has also got like a witchy history because there were people that did practice witchcraft. And not in like a black necessarily, like a black pointy hat. I'm gonna put warts on your face and curdle your milk. Like people who practiced it as a role in the community, whether they were like the healers or whether they were the midwives or they knew what herbs to give people, or they would like sell people charms. It was a role in the community. And especially in South Essex in this part of the world, I found out a lot about that. So, there was one. There was a lady who was said to live in Leon C called Sarah Moore. There's a named after her. Yeah, it's closed recently. that right? There was a pub, yeah, yeah. Okay, well, let this brief thing, hold a candle to it. She lived in the mid 1800s and they called her a sea witch. it's hard to tell what was just people exaggerating from what was the truth. But we know that she lived and they say that she would sit on the front and she would sell charms to sailors to give them a favorable wind out at sea. so depending on how much. they paid her, she would like tie some knots into a bit of ribbon and she would say, right, when you're out at sea, undo one knot for like a bit of a breeze and two knots for more and number three for a whole gale. this is, people think that people might think that, okay, they used to believe in witchcraft and then all the witches got killed in the 1600s. And then that's that. And like, no, this is in the 1850s. And not only is she selling witchcraft and charms for sailors, but sailors were buying it and it was still a part of the community. she was, yeah, so she was a sea witch in 1800s quite openly. And the other one from Hadley was a guy called, they called him Cunning Murrell and he was called a cunning man because unsurprisingly, If you were a bloke, you could get away with practicing magic, the same magic that if you were a woman, you would probably get called out on and persecuted as a witch. So that's the patriarchy in action for you, unfortunately. But he was also active in the 1800s and he again played the role of he would tell people's futures. He would find, he would find lost items for people. He'd remove curses if people thought they'd been cursed by a witch or something like that. There's a good story I've read of, there was a girl who found out that her boyfriend was seeing another girl and she wanted him desperately to like, she wanted to like win him back. And, um, she did the only thing which she could think of, which is to go and see the local cunning man or like he was basically the village wizard. And she went to see him and he gave her the recipe for like, not a love potion, but like a love charm. and she. Has anyone ever like uttered a magic recipe on this podcast before? This is new, go for uh it. yeah, if you're discretion, if you try this, I can't, I can't advise what's going to happen. he said, if you take the thorns from the wild rose or the dog rose, you cut out a bit of red flannel in the shape of a heart and you put under the light of a full moon in Hadley churchyard, if you put in a thorn to this flannel, um, and with each thorn you spell out the, with the spell out the letters of the name of the girl who's nicked your boyfriend. And everything will sort itself out. And funnily enough, one evening she went, I think it was New Year's Eve. She went to do that, light the full moon, churchyard, did this charm. She put the last thorn in the flannel and there was an explosion and she was knocked over and she was fainted. Couldn't remember anything. And when she woke up, there was a boyfriend saying, my God, we just like found you here in the churchyard. We thought something had happened to you. Thought we'd lost you. Um, and then they were married the next year. They got back together. And then just as gender just as he was helping her out of the churchyard, she saw kind of Murrell across the street, like over a wink. And those are the kinds of services he was said to perform. There are going to be hundreds of people up at Hadley Castle doing this now. Yeah, again, can't yell. I Yeah, again, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not a wizard. So if you try that, yeah, don't come crying to me or John, if anything. refunds on the free advice on it. But that's illustrative of the kind of thing that I looked at and just said, wow, not only is this brilliant because it's like magic and myth in Essex, but also it was not actually that long ago that it was like this is services rendered to the community. And that as a whole side of especially South Essex that I'm sure not a lot of people realised. So this is what you're bringing to light with the history, the story walks that you're doing and the tour that you're doing. So we are recording this ahead of your story walk at Hadley Castle, which is happening on the 22nd of June. Is that right? So off the top of your head, do you know any of the other dates you've got coming up? I'll write some down if you need some help. Yeah, I can tell you, so Sunday the 22nd of June is at Hadley Castle, although that one is actually sold out. Okay, I mean it's amazing that you're getting this following enough enough interest is incorrect. Did you believe that you would be in that position? Absolutely not. No way. When I started putting all this, I said I doing this project and I said, I'm going to, so I know we'll come back to the dates, but I said, I'm going to do this big walk to gather the stories and then I'm going to do story walks. I'm going to write it in a book. I'm going to, my mate's going to make a film about it and I'm going to record some of the stories and put them in the Essex record office. And if that's not enough, said the social media videos were not even like a planned part of the project. That's what I just said. Obviously I'm going to do that because I've got a following and I'd, I'd, I'd been making videos before that, but never with like a daily consistency. I'd never thought too much about it. I thought maybe some people would like it and you know, maybe like, I dunno, like I'll get a couple hundred followers or some people would say it's nice. And it's had so much success to the point of which now I've not, just put this on social media, by the way, I'm doing these walks and how all these people are turning up from social media of all ages. And I've done four of them so far and people are absolutely loving them. And yeah, it's beyond my wildest dreams. And the storyteller in you, the person that loves connecting with people just must be over the moon. You must just get your cup must be so full when you get an opportunity to do that. Yeah. Which is, we put a shout out to say you very kindly tagged us in one of your reels yesterday and I shared it and that is the most response I've ever had to a reel from people saying, my God, I follow James's account. I can't believe you're having a conversation with him. It was insane. Wow. So there's the word that you're getting out there. It's incredible. So yeah, just know that what you're doing and the message you're getting out there is making a real impact. But no, it's so true. And I think you very clearly seem like someone that isn't driven by the following. You're not doing it because of the followers. You're not doing it because of the accolades you might get from it. You're doing it because you are driven by this desire, this passion, this purpose to tell stories and connect with people. So that's incredible. And that's it. And in truth, I have been on social media for five years and I've been making videos for maybe two years, but I've never gone full bore on it because I still harbour a little bit of suspicion about social media and knowing the effect that, knowing the effect it has on other people. That's why I'm trying to get people to go outdoors so much because we all know that we spend too much time doom scrolling on our phones, but so do I. I was worried that I would get sucked into it if I went into like become a full-time candidate creator or anything like that. And so I'd always had a little bit of reticence and then it's only, it's only doing these videos and getting really lovely feedback and realizing, actually this feels really natural. I don't feel like I'm a slave to the algorithm and I'm thinking, what's my neck? You like, I'm, you know, it's just like, I'm, the stuff is naturally coming out and I'm capturing it and it's not. pitch perfect and it's, you know, it's not technically excellent, but I'm just doing me what I've naturally got and people respond to that. And that's been a real kind of relief for it's possible to do this social media thing without having to burn yourself out or work like be something that you're not. And yeah, it's been, it's been a real revelation. key to doing it for a long time, think. If you're to do it consistently, it needs to be authentic. We had an amazing social media expert come on, a lady called Abby Thomas, and she was basically talking about authenticity and that you should be creating content that is natural and sits well with you. Because if you're trying to do something just because the algorithm demands it, you'll do it for a month or maybe six months, but then you will fall off that bandwagon pretty quickly. Having a healthy relationship starts with making sure that it's something you want to create and that you're comfortable creating. Not going for hooks and virality just because you care and you want people to get on board with a message. So date wise, just give me a couple of dates. We've got Hadley Castle, which by the sounds of it, people are going to miss, which is a shame. And maybe the demand is going to be so high that there's another opportunity to do these in the future. Who knows? Who knows? But on Saturday the 21st, walk around Canvey Wick. Okay, yep. Which is going to be a really good one because not a lot of people would think of going on a nature walk on Canvey Island. But I will just tell you right now that the Canvey Wick Nature Reserve, which is on the west side of the island, which is what we're going to be walking around, has the highest biodiversity of insects anywhere in England. They call it a brownfield rainforest because it's actually such there is species there that we thought went extinct long ago and they're alive and well on Canvey. And that's on top of all of the really interesting history of that island going back 500 years. If people thinking, Oh, I don't know what I don't want to go for a walk on Canvey Island, then yeah, come along and let me prove it. exactly. Okay. uh Cressing temple. Jumping forward a little bit now. Yes, Creston 10 was at the 5th of June. is the 5th of July, yeah, this wasn't a test but I hope you were. for me because I forget every time. The Cresting Temple on 5th July, J-Wick on Sunday the 6th, again a bit like Canvey, another place that people would not necessarily think of going to for a nature walk. is such a big part of what you're doing, isn't it? You're trying to challenge the stereotypes and just change people's way of thinking. yeah, just, just if they can get along, then get an opportunity to do that. Yeah, again, like the same as Canvey, come along to that and you will hear stories of that area beyond your wildest dreams and also see some lovely nature as well. Sunshine Coast, some of the best beaches around. anyway, yeah. that's another one in this neck of the woods is in Hockley Woods. That's the one. that, that fully booked yet? That's the one I'd like to try and come along to as well. Yeah, I need to jump on that quickly. Apologies by the time this comes out. Hopefully there'll still be some spaces. em And where do people go if they do want to get involved and start getting booked on any of the dates that you've got left? Um, so I'm booking them through event, right. Um, if you go to my website on the man about country website, then you can see on one page, all of the dates and the locations. And there's even a map. So you can see on Essex like, yeah, that one's close to me. And that will take you all through and you can book a place there and the walks are all free of charge. Um, but people can donate if they want to, but it's here, but you do. have to book so I can make sure that I know how many people are coming. Otherwise if too many people turn up then it could be a bit... Well, I guess you're not, I would imagine you're not mic'd up, are you? So if you're getting swarms and crowds and crowds of people, want, you want it to, there's a degree of intimacy you want too. If you're storytelling, you don't want a stadium of people, I guess. There's something quite nice about that. I've got quite a loud voice, so I know I can project and I'm used to like shouting into a gale at this point. Can everybody hear me? Yeah. But it's more just around you. Some people are less used to going out for walks than others and I just need to be able to keep an eye on people. It's just, yeah, an idea to be like that person's flagging at the back. Are they okay? So it's, yeah. So for that reason, I got to keep a limit. I've originally, I capped it at 20 people per walk. and I've already bumped that up to 25. Hadley, I've already squeezed to 27 because I've done some people some favours and that's why I've had to say no, Hadley is... think I may have to repeat that one. So yeah, please do book, but yeah, they're ultimately free of charges. That's brilliant. think it's such a great initiative. I've got one more question, then we're going to move on to a game. Okay. This one's gonna ask you to have a little think and take yourself back to a certain time, but what advice would you give yourself from, I'm trying to think now, so 2017, did you say you moved to Cornwall? So 2015, what advice would you give yourself then about your relationship with work? If you could get in a time machine and say, James, the way you're feeling, what you're doing, the way you're thinking about work, what would be the advice you could give to yourself back then? uh I would say that it is possible to do a job that honours what you're passionate about and what you're good at. And you can even, if there is no job available on the common menu, you can just invent yourself one. I didn't realise that at the time. And the... if you are worried that you need to have a certain kind of career to be respectable within society, it is not so much society that is putting that pressure on you, it is you having internalised that critic in your own head and you also have the power to release yourself from that as well. yeah, hang in there man, you're doing great. But yeah, you just, yeah. uh so good. It's so incredibly profound. It sounds like you've done some work on that to come to those conclusions as well, both the journey that you've been on and maybe some self-reflection and looking back in hindsight. Yeah, I think that's super profound. I love the fact that you can say if there's a job not on the menu, then you can create your own one. I think that is becoming more and more possible as life goes on, like breaking the mold and we see it time and time again. And definitely in the world that I operate in, is recruitment, that is my day job, but I see these weird and wonderful things just popping up and I think that the possibilities are endless really. I uh think it's a really lovely message to leave people with. Well, again, I know I was saying about, I was a bit wary of, know, pitfalls of social media, but that does really demonstrate the positive side of it as well, because we live in a world where never before, if you just want to, if you think you want to try something new for a career and you want to get started and dip your toe in it, and just, if you do something good and put it out there and see what happens, the capacity for that to get recognized and lead to other opportunities, which would turn that into a career for you, like it's looking hopefully pretty good for me right now is possible only because of this modern day and age. there is, yeah, things like social media is a double edged sword, but they can be a force for good. Yeah, no, that's brilliant. I think that's a really good message to leave people with James. We're to play a game. I always apologise in advance for these games because I make them up and I do try, I mean, there's nothing completely original about this, but I do try and tailor it for the guests that coming on. Earlier on, and part of the reason I ended up getting messages from people saying, can't believe you've got James coming on is because I put a shout out asking people to get in touch with some of their historical tidbits that they've got about Lee oh and the area. what we're going to play is fact or folklore. in between some of the factual, historic bits and bobs, I host a podcast. can't talk today apparently, but amidst the facts, there is some folklore. So basically it's true or false. So you need to tell me which ones are facts and which ones are folklore. you're ready to play. Okay. I appreciate the enthusiasm. Lee was recorded as Legra in the Doomsday Book of 1086. Fact. It is fact. Did you know that? Yes. Okay. That was an easy one. I've no idea why but yeah Yeah, but you knew that okay? There's no context around this by the way. I've done very little research on the back of it, but Lee has been a fishing community for over a thousand years. That's fact. That is fact. so again, are things that potentially you could go away and research or if anyone listening to this wants to go and fact check this. Thousand years well, guess if they don't do say books like a thousand years and if there was leg here then I guess got some, it's mature, it's mature. That's pretty cool. A lion once escaped from a traveling circus and swam in Lee Creek. That is folklore. My delivery didn't help, it? There was a tell there. I could pick that up. St. Clement's Church. Do you know about St. Clement's Church? Okay, St. Clement's Church dates back to the early 16th century. Believe that? Fact. That is fact. Yeah, nice. It's amazing. I never knew that until people started sending that in. It's crazy to think that anything that old is sat in the Broadway and we walked past it every single day. Gravestone outside the church. There's that big old grave, where sailors and pirates used to apparently sharpen their swords. And there's a lady there called Mary Ellis, and she died in 1609, I think, or 1600s. She lived to be like 118, something like that. And the folklore of the area says that people reckon that she was a witch. So people would go and sharpen their swords on the top of like, you know, like it's like one of those crypt graves where it's like that and people are buried in a box. And you can see all of these lines on top. whether or not she was a witch, whether or not the lines are there because people sharpen their swords in the 18th just gonna go up the hill and take a look now though. It's a really cool grave and that lady a bit really long time. Anyway, I just got I can't stop myself I'm supposed to be teaching you something in this bit, but that's amazing. I need to go. No, don't be silly. need to go up and check it out. Lee train station was relocated in 1934 because the original one kept vanishing in the fog. Oooh, that's a good one! Folklor. Because there must be the same distance away from the fog. I would imagine so. The old station, so it was relocated in 1934 to just down there. Everyone listening to this, that's awful bit of podcasting, but I'm pointing that way. The old train station site is now the Scout Hut, which is just down there. You would have passed up or pulled up around that as well. So it is folklore though. So it relocated, but the reason for it was different. In the 18th century, fishermen trained seagulls to steal from rival boats. Nah, that is f- It's folklore, you called B.S.O. one straight. That was fact. Yeah, if anyone was gonna do it, I think it'd be Lee Fisherman Okay, um cockle boats from lee helped evacuate dunkirk in 1940 that is fact again something that you knew. Yeah Ali, there, a Lee boat for over a thousand men and troops back from Dunkirk just off these little boats here. know the volume. Wow, that is huge. Yeah. And again, I think people listening to this would never have known that. There'll be some that completely are down on their history. And I've spoken to so many people in this space. I steal the hatches Wi-Fi a lot. I work from here a lot. But I speak to people that are so in broad with the history and they can date their kind of bloodlines, their heritage back in this area for a few hundred years. It's incredible when you start speaking to locals about it, which is what you'll... you're doing with your story walks too. Okay, this is another one linked to St. Clement's. The tomb of Mary Anna Haddock, from whom Tintin's Captain Haddock gets his name, lies in St. Clement's churchyard. I think that's folklore. Is it? I thought it was someone else called Haddock. So it her, so it was her son that actually gets the attribution for the Captain Haddock's name. it's, her that, that a lot of that kind of the provenance of that goes back to her and her tomb is up there as well. So I don't have the date that she passed away. It was a while ago. Cool, okay that's two cool grades. you think, yeah, I mean people need to go and sit and seek this stuff out. em We'll do two more. St. Clement's Church is named after St. Clement's of Rome. That is fact. You just put 50-50 on that one. Completely out. totally knew that one. I can tell. Last one. Okay. were tied to horses' tails to lure ships onto the shore near Lee. So lights were tied to horses' tails to lure ships onto the shore near Lee. folks. That is folklore, but that is something that used to happen and apparently down in Cornwall What they used to do is tie lights to horse's tails to try and get so these are smugglers trying to get ships to come to the shore and then once they crashed they could go out and basically So we said it's only used to happen it just didn't happen in Lee James thank you for getting involved with that. I really appreciate you embarrassed myself completely and you've added some really nice facts that was Well hats off to you for curating that but hats off to everyone for sending those in Really I just collected all the Instagram messages, but Good I'm Right, we've got closing tradition on the podcast and then we're done so the closing tradition is My mum sends in a question to ask the guests so she knows roughly who I'm speaking to so I'm gonna play the question down the phone Hi James, how do you remember every bit of information that you've researched when you're doing one of your walks? Thank you. It's a fair question, one that I've thought about, that recall of all of the information that you pick up. There has to be a talent to that. Um, thanks. What's your mom's name? Lisa. Sorry. Thanks Lisa. Um, I say two things. One is that because I'm doing these walks in places that I had already visited once when I did my big walk. I'd prepared for that walk and I learned facts because I was like, I've got to know where to go and visit. But there's something about learning facts and then going to the place and walking through it and going, yeah. That's where that happened and that's where that happened. I think it must go into some really special part of your spatial long-term memory or something. Because now I'm like, one day I'm doing a walk at Tollsbury, next day I'm doing a walk at Bradwell and the next day I'm doing all that. So there's a lot of stuff and I wonder like how on earth does it stay in my head? But I think that's part of it. I think there's something about learning facts in a space that I think helps you remember stuff. I also think I've got... I've got the kind of brain where I learn stuff really quickly but I forget stuff really quickly. So if you ask me any of this stuff in three months I'll probably not be able to point out where Essex is on the map at this rate. All the juggling acts is ongoing and yeah, so yeah, it's a weird thing. Yeah, brilliant. It has to be a talent. You've got to have an innate ability to be able to retain that information. But as you say, if you are learning in the environment and then being able to recall it, there's definitely some science. Because otherwise I'm baffled as well. eh Okay, James, this has been such a pleasure. Thank you so much for saying yes to coming in on your day off. I know you've got so many more walks that you're doing, but I just wish you the best of luck with the mission you're on and I look forward to following this mission you're on. I hope you get these stories into as many people's ears as humanly possible and I just wish you all the best and thank you so much for your time. Thank you so much, Don, it's been amazing coming down. So yeah, thanks for having me. Thank you. Cheers. Cheers. We're done, mate. All right. Spot on. You did so well. you. Yeah, man. That so good. Honestly, really, really great. All right, me again. This is the bit where the host makes a cringy request for you to like and subscribe to the podcast, wherever you're listening or watching. just preparing you for what's coming over the next 10 to 15 seconds. If you've been watching this on YouTube, could you please give the channel a like and then subscribe to it? It's pretty simple. I can't make you any promises like Steve Bartlett does. You just do a guy a favor. I owe you one. And the same goes for any way that you're listening to this podcast if you can follow the show and just share it with your friends or your family or even people you don't like they might like it it might Build a bridge between you both that you didn't know Existed we could we could literally make friends out of the two of you So do that anyway, I think this is what Tom wanted me to do so like follow share review all the positive things and I love you all. Cheers.