JobsWorth - Peter Knock

On this week’s episode of JobsWorth I’m speaking to Leigh on Sea based Illustrator and Artist, Peter Knock. 

Over the course of his 50+ year career Peter has created work for the world’s most iconic publications-think GQ, Rolling Stone, Time, Esquire and many more. 

His origin story is one filled with hard graft, quiet perseverance, and learning to back his own ability- with a bit of right-place-right-time luck and a truckload of talent thrown in.

As well as running through Peter’s impressive list of credits we also explore what led him into teaching and the impact he’s had on his students, including me. How the tools of his trader have evolved over the years and where he developed his incredible sense of style. 

Make sure you stick around until the end for a very special game called ‘The Gallery’. All will be revealed. 

Please enjoy...Peter Knock. 

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Chapters

• 0:00 Intro
• 9:05 Education and Early Influences
• 17:55 Building Confidence in Creativity
• 26:57 Freelancing and Major Breakthroughs
• 40:01 Reflections on Success and Style
• 51:50 Advice for Aspiring Artists

Transcript

0:00

I was injecting jam into doughnuts. was a little bit... Peter I've got interject my interject there you go my stepdad Did that job and he's the only person I've ever spoken to or met in my life that injected jam? Into doughnuts and they want to make someone else is two of you. I've never had that you Hello and welcome back to jobs worth this week I am joined by Peter knock who is a Leon C based illustrator and artist The word legend is bandied around a lot nowadays, but I think in Peter's case is true He is a bona fide legend Peter has been an illustrator Decades we're talking over 50 years the guy has done it all and he's worked for some of the most recognizable names out there. We're talking Rolling Stone and GQ and Esquire. So we talk about that. We talk about what landed him those opportunities. We talk about how his style and how his love for what he has done over the years has evolved. We also talk about confidence and building confidence, especially as a creative to go out there and actually pursue an occupation in the field that you've spent a good amount of years studying in. This was, as all the conversations we have, a delight. Peter is such a gent, he's also one of the most stylish men in Leoncy and further afield. He has such a grasp on fashion, especially being menswear, you might have guessed. So I had to wear a suit. So that explains my attire for this episode, because I didn't want to be m underdressed. to have this conversation. So I hope you enjoy it. As always, if you've got any feedback, get involved in the comments and stay tuned for next week. Right, so we are going to kick in with the opening question, Peter, and that is when you were younger, what did you want to be when you grew up? Well, to be honest, I was quite keen to be an illustrator. Okay, my mom and dad used to have radio times It used to be a terrific place for illustration. I mean, it's sadly become very commercialized now, but uh I used to look at rate and radio plays there was just tradition of using Well nearly always black and white illustration, but illustrators to illustrate a radio play or any other TV event, but the radio times, you know, it was a lot about radio and TV. And I used to just look at them and we'd, sounds idyllic, like a sort of Norman Rockwell world, but we used to, as a family sometimes, listen to the radio play. And I'd actually look at the illustration, which would often be uh a piece of fiction, you know, and it would just be, the illustrations would be literally A scene from whatever you were listening to and I was quite keen. I'd cut them out And I did a lot of drawing in books exercise books Strange as work. We didn't have commercial TV We just said BBC and commercial TV was ITV right the friends of mine did and I'd go around their house on Saturday to what Superman or something Yeah, but I was really taken by this the commercials. I really liked them And I used to write little stories with cowboys often in them. And then I'd have a draw a little commercial for like ice lollies or something. Strangely, I'd do that and then go, so I'd have an intermission in my little drawn piece with a commercial, uh like a magazine commercial, I suppose. If I had to guess what your answer to that opening question would be, it would have been Illustrator because I've read some of the interviews you've done previously. So you were involved in an interview with Drake's menswear with your son. That's right. I can quote from it. You said you always wanted to be an illustrator. But what was the beyond opening the Radio Times? Did you have any other inspiration around you? Was there creativity in the family? My dad was a surveyor and a state agent, but he would draw plans as a child surveyor. My sister used to do, she's about seven years older than me, and she'd draw sometimes from life and I'd draw alongside her. But I think I loved with illustration the idea that it was in print. in a magazine and I'd look at, I'd go into this little world they created in a sort four inch square, know, so there were small illustrations. And from that, and then went to secondary, locally I went to secondary school, South End, and there we had an art teacher who'd actually done an illustration course in Wales. So he was obviously very keen on the idea of illustration. And he encouraged us, me, particularly, to pursue more illustrative type projects. Was the line between art and illustration quite blurred back then? yes. Yes. Not really. was probably, it wasn't really, it was quite distinctly different. And now in retrospect I realise I also liked at the time artists that were um narrative, what we call narrative painters who really paint, Edward Hopper was a kind of narrative painter really. um have a kind of sense, if you look at a painting, you can imagine a time before and a time after that's been depicted. And you might reflect more on the content. You might think about that guy in an Edward Hopper petrol station, petrol pump thing. What's his life like? What does he do? Is he happy? He doesn't seem it's the toil of mundane living, you all those things, or there's a dark forest at the edge there. It seemed that suggests some kind of menace. And I like to read a painting. And now for my own part, I do my own narrative paintings based on my own ideas. So I'm not in partnership with the text, where illustration, in my mind, always should be in partnership with text. That could be one word. It might be spring, summer, autumn, winter. It doesn't have to be... War and Peace, as we mentioned earlier. It doesn't have to be a long novel or anything. It doesn't have to be a novel. Illustration tends to be a partner, whereas narrative painting can exist on its own. The painter has decided exactly what he wants to paint, and I enjoy that freedom, really. I did, yeah. went to secondary school around here. then you ended up at Brighton. And then I did a one-year local course which at the time at Southend Art School as it was known then Where it was now they call them foundation courses. It was what we called a pre dip Because the course I did was called a dip ad but it was the equivalent of the current degree right and and foundation So did one year where you do painting? sculpture printmaking a lot of life drawing you go through the range of potential. smorgasbord of all these endeavours that you can try. Someone might go off and do interior design and someone might feel that textiles was good or fashion or... So you'd have a taster of all those, of the gamut of stuff. And then in that first term, it's only a year I did, and then after Christmas, in the next two terms, you just specialize in your chosen sort of path, really. But again, you, you having had that inkling from when you were younger, you wanted to be an illustrator. were going through that. I went to South Island in the sixth form and uh my teacher said, and I did English literature, which, and technical drawing, but English literature was a great partner for doing art really. And he suggested, why don't I illustrate some of the fiction I was reading for my A level. So it seemed a perfect combination. was a synergy went hand in hand. I did, we were doing D.H. Lawrence and T.S. Eliot and people, so I illustrated pieces of theirs, you know, so I had a reason. It was good that gave you a reason for doing what you were doing, for making that image, to solve a text, really. So the 12 months you spent there kind of honing, having opportunities to get hands on with other I became very keen on painting to be honest. One of the tutors introduced me to some painters that I was really impressed with, was knocked out with. thought, wow, some I'd been unaware of. mainly Americans actually, but I still eventually decided I wanted to apply for illustration, not painting, oh fine art. And I felt slightly like I'd let this guy down. And I said, I think I'm going to do illustration. He said, oh, of course, you're made for it. And then I did get in at Brighton. So talk to me about why Brighton, because I looked back and they've had some amazing students and they've had some amazing teachers there as well. And I don't know how long people like Raymond Briggs, Quentin Blake. So this was what I going to ask, if that time overlapped with your time. Rain in Briggs was a very high profile. Nothing like as high profile as he subsequently became. guess in retrospect, looking back at the name Raymond Briggs now, who we all know has created these incredible images over the years. and fungus the bogeyman marvelous stuff yeah But I didn't know if that had any, if Brighton Art College was a destination for you, regardless of who was teaching there or some of the alumni that had been there. I went there because I'd visited, I'd been down there with my parents and I thought, wow, I really liked it. It it seemed to full of young people as well. I mean, it does have an art school and Sussex University is down there. So it was always very much a university town and such a lovely place really. And I just thought, I'd love to try and get in the course here. And I'm assuming you connected with that whole experience of education at that level and again continued to hone your craft in the few years you were there. I became quite keen on printmaking, which is like lithography or silkscreen. I went in the late 60s and it just went in... I left in about 1970... What? Ninety... 1972, I think. But the early 70s, late 60s, printmaking was particularly having a high profile in the art world, really. And we had a postgraduate course as well in printmaking with a few American guys who were on it and they were quite inspiring because they were doing a postgrad. But I didn't really work as hard as I should. just didn't. of all the other things going on I was going to say distractions is a good one. to describe it. Did you know then, going through the course and then still living and staying in Brighton, did you know that you were going to go on to make creativity or something creative a career? You were actually going to make a living from that. Well, was surprisingly, I thought, quite confident. I was doing A-levels and when I did our foundation one year locally. And then when I got to do this degree course at Brighton. But then I sort of just, I think by the second year, I just lost all my confidence in the ability to make, it's quite mad really, but it happens. I'm sympathetic to students that I see that happen to when my role is a... able to empathise then, I think. really, but I just kind of lost all my confidence. I don't think I ever... I was dead keen to work as an illustrator, but in my heart, I don't think I really believed I could, you know, really, to be honest. And when I left, I just hadn't got a portfolio that I felt represented me to go out, because then it was literally you go out with the portfolio and you... show someone through your work, you know, and you could actually make an appointment. Well, now I think it's unsolicited stuff is email to people and whether or not it gets seen is neither here, it happened, really a lottery, as you say. Whereas still you're able to phone up and go and see people. But I still, wasn't at a level to take on the pressure of a deadline and, and all the other aspects of working as a freelance. So when I left Brighton, I took a job as a bus conductor with Brighton-Hove and District Omnibus Company. I quite enjoyed it, actually. was really good. your only, I think you described this as being your only sort of fully employed job. It was in a way, yeah. think maybe all freelance workers feel they haven't ever quite got a proper job. that was, a job. I'd have days off. I wasn't just paid for my work. Well, I sort of was, but it was a full-time job as a bus conductor. I did that sort of that job. then I had a job in a local, to me, was a uh cake factory. And they were I was injecting jam into doughnuts. It was a little Peter, I've got to interject. My stepdad did that job. And he's the only person I've ever spoken to or met in my life that injected jam into donuts. And now I've met someone else. It's two of you. ah I've never had that. I've never had that anywhere else. I wanted to ask, this might be taking you back just one step. What was the perception of a creative career or is it a career in the arts or as an illustrator at that time? I would imagine... it could have been viewed by some as, you know, again, try and get a proper job. Go down the route where you're to get your consistent salary, your consistent money, get on the career ladder. What was the perception back in the 70s of that kind of route that you wanted to take? It was a bit, think certainly my, because I didn't, because I did my course and my parents were, my dad became a surveyor through night classes after the war. In my family, I think I was the first really to, and my brother was a charlatan surveyor, but he went straight from school and did his... So the equivalent of a degree alongside a full-time job in as a surveyor. Right, yeah. So you were breaking new ground to you going to... to college, you know, and I always felt a bit bad that I didn't work harder for my parents' sake, to sort of, you really. And then I think they, it took me, I don't know, three to four years, probably three and a half to four years before I actually went out to see a potential client for work as a freelance illustrator. So they must have kind of given up on that in that time, I think. So they weren't putting pressure on you though, it's still support. I was earning enough, I did early morning cleaning and cleaning for other people, offices and stuff. So I was paying my way, I was paying rent and... That would have been slightly different if you were living this kind of bohemian lifestyle and going out and not making that money because you were paying your own way and you had... I did have some, not the work I really wanted to do ultimately, but I did get an animation, filmmaking company wanted me to do sort of maps and stuff for, um I suppose they're making documentaries, they were aimed at schools really, educational films, and every now and again you'd have a map. but with a Rostam camera they'd go down on a move around and I was painting with gouache paint, which is a very flat colour. uh maps with mountain range and you know those sort of images we see. So I suppose that was, it was through someone I knew at college, a tutor, and it's her father. had this film company and it was through that connection which was nice to be able to do that. But it wasn't really, it was more diagrammatic stuff. It wasn't really what I was aiming at really. But good that I was using certain skills. I got fairly good at painting flat color, which is something. Well, I would imagine as well, a lot of people came out of college at the same time as you, maybe made an attempt to go at finding paid work and then fell by the wayside and did have to go into more of your traditional forms of employment and traditional careers. the fact that you were coming out and even partially contributing to rent and bills and all these things by the work you wanted to be doing or at least created work. did peripheral to what I was after, maybe. you kind of inferred earlier to how your confidence started to build after college, which was starting to do the illustration for this American artist or American writer. Yeah, that's for myself. That was just my own... Okay, two years on... then about three years, I did those after being a bus conductor. Then a friend of mine from college had seen an advert in The Guardian, I think on Thursdays or something, was education supplement in it. And it was a job for a day a week teaching. They seemed to be looking for quite a few staff part-time through one day at Southend Art College. And I thought, well, I'll apply to that. And I went along and I seemed to get on quite well with the guy there. And he said, would I like to do uh a day? And it was like life drawing. I was taking life drawing classes in half the day. And because I'd done quite a bit of printmaking, printmaking, lithography in the afternoon session. And that went. You know, went quite well, really. But the whole idea of part-time staff in art schools, and it's a long-standing tradition since early 1900s, I think, having part-time members of staff is really because they're out there in the field. You know, they're doing their painting or designing a building or illustrating book covers or whatever. And I felt... when I had that day that I really had to justify it by going out and it prompted me to really go out and try and get some illustration, well, certainly to see people with my portfolio and try and get, start to try and get established as an illustrator. But it was having that job and feeling a bit of a fraud that I wasn't really justifying the, I felt that. That's interesting. there was almost this degree of responsibility to then show that these students that you were going out and making your way and making a living. oh I wasn't really in... I started in 1975, think it was teaching part-time. And that would have been, you know, September, I suppose. And then I think just into the new year in 76 then, I thought, right, I'm sorry, I'm going to get the courage up. I knew these people that were at different magazines. And I'd... funnily enough, back to radio times, was using some great illustration. thought, a really creative use of illustration, and there was quite a lot of it. And I'd realized that that came out every week, and they might have perhaps 10 illustrations or more sometimes. So they were actually commissioning, you know, obviously like 40 illustrations a month. And that has to be taken seriously as a potential. and they kind of nurtured illustrators. That was like an extension of a college. And I thought, I'll have a go. I'll phone up and make an appointment, which you could do. I phoned up Radio Tides, really nervous, and went with my portfolio to them in the morning. And then in the afternoon, I went to see the magazine Harper's and Queen. It's now become... It was Harper's and that might be called bizarre. Okay. It's a woman's glossy magazine a lower profile slightly. And they used to have a great short story, a short story in every issue and about a half page or slightly more in the illustration and the writers I quite like, like Patricia Highsmith you might know, the Ripley books. A lot of American writers I admired. and I thought Arthur Miller, who married Marilyn Monroe at one point, and I thought, I'd love to have the chance to illustrate some great writing, although I realized you can do your best work not necessarily to great writing, but I was attracted to that potential and I saw them in the afternoon and both went really well. About three days later, I got a call from one of them, Robert, and said, I want you to illustrate this radio play. And it was a little thriller, a Kingsley Amis play called The Riverside Villas Murder or something. of thing I did a lot of. and then I got also, Harpers and Queen asked me to do a short story. I was really, that's very lucky. But I% hit rate at that stage, isn't And I don't think had I gone to see them a year earlier two years earlier straight from college I'm certain I wouldn't have got any and you whether my thought folder wasn't at the level you have shown them Well, you wouldn't have done that. Maybe you would have on the the chronology. You might have already done the project, your own project, illustrating those stories of the American writer. They were in your locker. But again, confidence grows over time. And as you say, if you hadn't taken a teaching job, maybe that wouldn't have given you the kick up the arse to go and have those meetings. And then I felt, oh, you know, that was better for that. don't think I could have coped earlier on just with the pressure of deadlines are really tough. I mean, at college, there were some great artists and illustrators who would try for illustration, but in the end, they just couldn't cope with having to illustrate a text appropriately, which might be a piece about suddenly you're thrown at a... thrown at you a piece about racial friction in the deep south of America or something. It's not what you're imagining ever doing, you know, and we need it Tuesday, you know, and loads of people fall by the wayside, sadly. um And I think I wasn't strong enough to deal with it until just a few more years in. It terrible. Well, I almost promised myself on this podcast that I wasn't going to bring my brother into the conversation, who's also a professional artist. really? So, I see weekly what deadlines do to him. he's a very, I would like to describe him as a very easygoing person. Walter off a duck's back. But seeing a looming deadline and what it does to him, you know... however many times he's doing it, he's creating a couple of books at the moment and there's deadlines for that. Oh, I've seen it firsthand that pressure. So I can imagine that kind of yes. When I say separate, separates the wheat from the chaff. I mean that it just filters out the people that are going to stick and the others that maybe that life isn't isn't for them. Yeah. But that kickstarted an incredibly successful career as a freelancer for you. That those meetings take you on the radio I was very, loads of luck I think here, but ah I had to do it. you're being very humble as well. yeah, it's luck, it's talent, it's someone seeing what you've done and yeah, luck has to play a part in it doesn't and lucky seeing people at the right time, the right people. So talk to us then about some of the, I'm gonna call them institutions that you've illustrated for. I've listed Rolling Stone, Esquire, Time, GQ. It's just incredible when you. Yeah, it's incredible when you look at that list. seems I think, yeah, at the time I just lost it all kind of snowboard into the net or flowed into the next real snowboard. Yeah Did you give yourself a moment at that time or did you ever let yourself feel what that time I've I've made it did that did that Turn or that expression ever come to your head. I've made it m No, I don't think so ever really. I think I was always so nervous about doing them, you know. What I'm getting a picture of here is this stage of your life as a freelancer. You are working on commissions, you're working to deadlines. And then I think, again, through some of the interviews that I've read and some of the em conversations I've seen you have, you came to a decision or the conclusion that maybe carrying on working to deadlines and doing work to someone else's brief wasn't the way that you wanted to carry on, at least exclusively. Yes. So you wanted to create work for yourself for the pure joy of it's for me. I wasn't finding the time to because I was working Pretty you know really deadline on dead, you know job on job on job for a while I wasn't really and then when I had a free space Well, then you'd be wired when the next job coming in but I wouldn't think feel I was gonna do my own thing as it were, know But then I started to find that a break and do that and then they built it I started to do more and more of my own paintings always I've always had this thing about watercolor and I just it's a It's a bugger to use quite honestly. just it's a horrible medium, but it can look like it's great for its translucency I think it's really good like for flesh or that you it's not opaque that you sort of see the white of the paper through it almost in it, so I I like the media I like it what it can do, but I find it really hard to do. I'm possibly slightly better now but I can, if something's gone wrong I can adjust it. So it's a little bit fraught at a medium. uh was as you're talking about it that it seems like it's part of the allure, that it's difficult. is maybe. challenge of it keeps you going back to it. do, yeah. I never think I really know much about it, but I you clearly do, which we'll go on to speak about. Did your drive to create things for yourself, did that coincide with having children? I was just thinking from a timing perspective, how young were your kids? That lifestyle of always working to deadlines, yet it's paying the bills and you're able to pay your mortgage and pay for things for your family and for you. did that play a part, having young children and maybe not wanting to... always work to deadlines. I suppose so, really, the family life thing. Because quite often, we didn't do too many holidays. It em was difficult to get away, really. You're always beholden to the next commission. And there's a valid reason to wait for the next commission because it's it's helping you live and fund that lifestyle. Yes, that's right. And I can't complain about the work I was given. They all had the potential. I couldn't say, not another, blah, blah, blah. And I'd be seen in a different light by different people that would commission me. I did a set of crime thriller book covers over a few years. not constantly, every now and again I do one. And they only, wanted me just, it was literally, it wasn't to interpret the text at all really. Well was to interpret in terms of being accurate, if the guy in the book had a beard or it was a Victorian house or what, know. reflect something about the characters in your... That's right, I had to sort of just literally in a very straightforward way, very literally literal, depict the scene as it were and make it a design. I mean, I'm very keen on composition and quite inspired by film, movies, Hitchcock stuff and that. the viewpoint is quite important for me and looking down often or looking up or quite cinema inspired viewpoints. And I knew what they wanted me to do was just literally it was commissioned as will you depict the victim of all these crime stories each time? uh And they may not come be introduced to you till about the second chapter. It's kind of Midsummer Murders. Right, got you. you know, we like it really, you know, it's the comfort of a, know, the vicarage in the words. Yeah, there's something nice in there that brings us memories. on the I have done Paula actually mrs. like her head down she was often the model for me on a desk on a desk because I went to study you know with blood all on the blotter and so I knew that's what they wanted there's no other short stories or fiction or articles, I'd interpret in quite a different way. It could be almost semi-abstract or it might be quite a tangent to the main thing and I could justify it. mean, there was no, there's no one way of doing it, but there was sort of ideally one way for me to do it, you know, and I'd try and, and I'd usually be able to do that. So it was quite good. But I do a whole series of those, but not constantly. So it'd be a nice break to get back to another sort of... crime thriller. you So you've had all these successes in freelance and with your art, which I will talk to you about in a second too, with the art that you've created. I'm conscious of going too far into the teaching experience you've had, and it sounds like you went on in the late 80s to start with Norwich. Yes, I That's right. I taught at Kent Institute of Art and Design for always part-time at Maidstone, a degree, a BA illustration course. And then for the longest time though, and I love being there, although unfortunately it's a hundred miles away, slight drawback. But at Norwich now it's called Norwich University of the Arts. But it was like Norwich School of Art once years ago. but everyone wants to the word university in them. And I was there, 1988, I think, first of all, I was asked to talk about my work as a visit, a one day thing. And then from that, I got on really well with the head of department, lovely guy, Andy Vargo, and he said, would I like to do a regular stint? So that came out of that really. eventually finished teaching there, I thought, oh, it's time really, um five years ago. Three decades, over three decades that you were doing that. And it was, I used to drive up, I used to have a Beatle converter, obviously. And I'd go all that 200 miles round trip. Twice a week. And sometimes, yeah, I did love it. And it's a lovely, the college is great. Norwich itself, you know, is where it's sited is a particularly nice park. And very, know, very stimulating. And the role there was very fulfilling, really. Great appreciative students, lots of enthusiasm. We were having a conversation before we started recording about my memory of you. I remember you Peter, whether you remember me or not. You could be polite and say yes, but there's a good chance you wouldn't have done. But I went to Seavic College where you were teaching at the time and I have very fond memories of you just being an inspiring figure in the classes that I was privileged enough to sit through with you. I wasn't a great student. I'm sure you were. in such a nice bloke. You want to like people don't you? People you work for, people you work with. Yeah, I mean, it's very important. I think that's an underrated skill to just be like it doesn't do you very well when you're trying to create art So I could be likable, but what I was creating wasn't fantastic. I think You might be confused with my brother at that time because he's only 18 months younger than me But really I had those I had that conversation with you and there has to be something that you You give so much of yourself when you go into education and you're supporting Students and you want to see them do well I did want to ask, over all the years that you have been teaching students, what is the most impactful piece of advice that you've shared with them over the years? Maybe something that comes up more frequently than anything else, or just a nugget of advice that you've given where you think you might take a step back and go, yeah, I saw that land and that was really powerful. Can you recall anything? And then there's one guy who really, a fantastic illustrator called Paul Blow, B-L-O-W, which I was a part-time lecturer when he was at Maidstone. And I think I remember saying to him basically all about ideas, how important ideas are. There's a lot of... incredible talent for making images out there and in the way and he's his work's very dynamic, very exciting, great colour, great viewpoints but at the at its core he always has a really good idea you know conceptually he's in a league on his own and I I I think I've often stressed that side of stuff but to do it and to have the style that you work with appropriate to your ideas really. So they're in tune together really. um I guess you hone that over time, don't you? The ideation process and the creation process start to kind of harmonize after a while, but you've got to come up with enough ideas to create enough that there is a sort of stronger balance between them. and you want to tick all the boxes. I think the thing is about illustration is that you're in competition with the page really, know, in magazines anyway. You might have another illustration on the other side or a photographer on the next double page spread. So you're kind of competing for attention and I'd often crop It's quite I realized you can have a bit of impact you for instance very early on radio times where they'd be I'd be given like a I suppose really about a four inch square. Mm-hmm. Ultimately have it reproduced in yeah, and I think well actually I can make it a bit have a bit more impact by really going in and crop it and a very cinematic thing so like a part of if I love that people leaving the the rectangle like there's a world outside you don't know about it, they're going there. But going in really close and that's kind of how I think of how I was trying to compete on the page. That's a really good point because in looking at some of your work, if you look at it for long enough, you almost feel like the subject is looking at you in the same way you're looking at them or it. So yeah, seeing that as a smaller piece of work, someone making eye contact with you or looking back at a world from their perspective, that's the impression I get when I look at your work. So it kind of sounds like maybe that's intentional. That's great. I don't think it is always intentional, but it's great. comes across. It's subjective from my perspective, but that's how I of interpret the stuff that you do. Because I think my stuff I mean some people think what's real, know, it's I'm a real in a realist It's quite realistic. Hmm, but I I quite like the fact that it's sometimes not that realistic, you know that um So slightly I mean it sounds too flattering to say this but slightly dreamlike slightly So yeah surreal this I like the idea the surrealism but it's not overtly surreal. There's a hint of a world of surrealism. It's really gripping. My mum was looking at your work before we recorded today, which again, I'll show you why in a second, because they're the closing tradition on the podcast that mum gets involved with. But she was looking at your work and again, professional artist for the best part of over 40 years now. mum? Yeah, she's a ceramicist. So she makes sculptures from clay. But she was looking at your work and again, Simile was saying how engaging it was. It stops you. And now you're talking about the fact that you had a small, a minimal amount of real estate to get people to pay attention. Yes, that's what it came from that. Yeah, it's kind of chicken and egg and I understand now what the catalyst for that was it has to be gripping because if someone's flicking for a publication you want them to stop. Yeah. m That's right. Look at me. Yeah, well, that's it. guess you kind of right with that. Exactly. Yes. And they love contrast and in fact, you know, they'll commission someone with totally, you know, a completely contrasted approach stylistically and conceptually, you know, it's good to have that rich variety, isn't it? you Looking back at your career, what do you think your proudest moment is? Well, as an illustrator, as an illustrator, I really did enjoy... my Squire column illustrations, I It was my baby. It was sad it could have gone on longer if it hadn't been a redesign, but for three years it was my little... And I feel incredibly privileged that they give me a really important issue. It might be about... They could be quite flippant things as well, but it might be about America's attitude to, well, like now, God, now in America, but how their attitude towards Brazil or South America or, you know, illegal immigration even, the issues like that. Actual friction in Southern states and stuff. And I'd feel, wow, they've asked me to, I mean, great writers often. nearly always, but they've asked me to actually illustrate it. And you think, this is quite weighty stuff, but you could have lovely light weight material, how to wear a tie or something, I don't know. And it could be, I enjoy that, but when it was a weighty thing, and I've done pieces about quite a lot of racial stuff really, but South Africa, at the end, when... the end of the, I can't think of his name now, the last days of Rhodesia before it became Zimbabwe. You know, that's maybe what... a big responsibility to be charged with the visual interpretation of air that can't be undervalued for sure. So, okay. So that's on the illustration side. I had down the award that you got for the Royal Watercolor Society. was good. Is that up there? Yeah. Again, cause you mentioned watercolor and not feeling that you've still got control over it, but you've got a memorial of colour. you... there you go. Something must be going okay with it. So really great to get that. Right, yeah. a competition. I'm not a member of the Royal Watercolour Society, but as a punter, as an out, you you can... They've opened it internationally, but predominantly British people who work in watercolour can enter that annual show, which is on for a couple of weeks, I think two or three weeks, maybe three, and a gallery next to Tate Modern, it's called the Bankside Gallery. It's a great gallery. familiar with it, yeah. And I've been lucky enough to be in quite a few of them. to get that award was so surprising. I felt unwell actually. I'd had a hacking cough and didn't go to the private view. And the piece I did was a black and white, is for the Royal Water Colours. It was a double bed actually, an empty bed that was... uh Empty and it looked like only one person has slept in it and I called it missing and I said hello I do like a sense of mystery what's going on again off the page. and the other away from it you're drawing that but you're thinking about something else you know I love I quite like that and um anyway they must have said and for missing and I'm missing which is quite ironic so I didn't get you know at the private you're going to go on up and got my handshake and the city course, yeah, the full shebang in terms of the... I didn't that's right and they'd sent me an email but it went into my junk because it Because they were asking for my bank, do you know like an email asking for bank details? um for the prize money to put in. They weren't asking for anything the other way. And it said you've won this and I didn't see it, you know, so... And then I did check on the junk and there it was, you everything, you know. But I would have made the effort to go... Because I just really wasn't that well though. I'd have gone along, which would have been nice to have done, but... Lovely to get that, I must say. that is a really incredible achievement to have been acknowledged in that way. We are coming towards the end of the podcast now. We can't close the podcast without acknowledging why I'm wearing a suit. Lovely suit. Thank you so much. But it is to pay homage to you as one of the most fashionable people in So I've had this discussion with... My own fashion. from local merchants who describe you as the best dressed man in Leigh. I've noticed that. I think that's why they're saying it. but honestly, it's very style is something that I think anyone that knows you knows that you're into your fashion, knows that you're into style. I do have a question that um Ed from the local merchants have sent in. So I'm going to play that down the mic for you. Right, okay. So this is the question from Ed, not Sam. Sam was out today. You're a stylish dude, Peter. If there was one item of clothing you could save for the rest of time and have it framed for the Hall of Fame, what item would it be in your locker? Now what item of clothing would you have framed and saved for the rest of time? Does put you on the spot too much or can you? You're already working your way through your wardrobe. Yeah, it said to me, how'd you go about your wardrobe? you have it as though I walk in closet and I just have things that match, you I just go like, do, you know. Just throw it on. That's right. clean, that's good, that's... Anyway, I do have... I have got quite a relationship with the Harrington jacket. Okay. And I've liked them, you know, that of that funnel neck and... And I have got a really nice one, think. Well, I've got... I had quite a few and I gave some to my son and my son-in-law, you know. But I've pared it down. I've got just two Harringtons. Technically is a certain style right? as you might know and I've got two other what they call golfing when she is made by Grenfell I'm quite fond of those but I've been a little bit associated with the Harrington because they um John Simons, which is a shop. I like her in Chiltern Street where the Chiltern Firehouse Is fire and um I bought one these guys it's the father and son have been in business since when the father started out in 19 incredibly. He's about 85 now. So I think it was about 1955 was the first had in East London, an outlet in a Taylor's in a little reception area to to sell clothes and he's always loved and I've always liked American Ivy League type clothes. And he then was there was a he was selling Harrington jackets, which is They're made by a British, really, to call it the Harrington, it was worn by guy called Rodney Harrington in Peyton Place, which was an American TV series we used to watch for the clothes they wore as much as anything. And we wanted the Rodney Harrington jacket and he then called it the Harrington. And when they started up... uh an online side to them, they were a bit slow to get onto that uh area. And they wanted a home page image. They used a GQ illustration of mine with a guy, partially my son, but it wasn't totally him, but wearing a Harrington. And you only see it's quite exaggerated the scale because I'm really close to it as though I'm looking at it. And it looks bigger than it really should have been. and they use that for their homepage and they've now got a print of it in their shop on Chiltern Street and it's become a bit of a legendary shop, an iconic shop, a destination thing for people who go there from abroad, Bill Nye goes there or Terrence Stamp has been... It's got quite a following. That's amazing. think The Harrington, I'd have to say, and one made by John Simons. but made by a company called Grenfell, that would have to be the item because of other associations. Yeah. I mean, there's a whole story around that. Builds up for that answer. That's brilliant. I I use them. send words when you can use. Yeah, I mean this is what this is what long form contents all about Peter so it's fantastic. Andy from Colt also has a question. so I'm gonna... Andy has sent this one in. Yeah, so I mean they know you incredibly well now you and Andy were in a modeling campaign. I'm call it that for local merchants. mean both of you did. I mean yeah, it was very striking. they all, Sam and Ed and Andy are the best dressed people. if you go in there in sports gear, just prepare to be stood up quite badly. mean, they are incredibly dapper all the time. And Andy, I'm going to say this verbatim, so you might imagine if you've ever spoken to Andy, there is a swear word in it. So I am going to say it, we can always beat that out. Mr. Knock, this is how it starts. You're a fucking cool guy. Sorry, Peter, I feel like I need to apologize. Probably the most stylish guy in the area. Who, if anyone, do you take inspiration from? Or do you just know what you like and what suits you? that's interesting. question. He has to drop an f-bomb in there. Yeah He doesn't exactly wear the clothes I would wear, I really rate Bill Nye. You know, he makes that effort. Sounds a bit wanky to say make an effort, doesn't it? But he looks good. But he doesn't tend to wear casual stuff particularly, although he might wear a John Smedley polo shirt. But he's got a great elegance, I suppose. I love a lot of the Americans, From that, know, the Steve McQueen, Paul Newman. I always have liked the Ivy League thing, really. And friends, I've got friends who are really great stuff. But you kind of alluded to it earlier as well, you've got your own style. And I think you can tell that what you wear, you very clearly feel comfortable in and that comes across. So if you've got an eye for it to put these pieces together, to create something that for me sat here feels like, you must've thought about that, you know, a little more deeply than just I'm taking some items out and I put them on because I know they look good. That comes with, you must just have an eye ability to wear it and wear it confidently. like them, I've got friends, we talk, know, hours about clothes sometimes, you know, because you're a buzz, my wife does great stuff, likes clothes. Well, I think it would have been criminal to have finished the podcast without at least addressing your style. So thank you for indulging me with it. Ah, well thanks, very flattered. Well, and again, it's not just me that thinks it this is is telling you to your face or not From those guys, I'm going to be out of pocket. I think so, maybe. Right, we have a game to play, if that's alright Peter, and then we have a closing tradition on the podcast. So I'm going to explain the game. So the game we're going to play is the gallery. So if you ever watched Tony Hart's art program on the TV when it was on, did you ever watch this? So there was a gallery where he curated pictures for the guests that sent stuff in. Your face on this, you still have no idea where this is going. So basically I've asked some of our listeners to send in their creations and you're going to give them a score out of 10, Peter. Right. I'm harking back now to the grade that you might have been involved in giving me at college. just want to put you on That's quite nice. Yeah, no, there's no judgment as well. I'm just going to give them a name so there's a degree of anonymity. I'll just give first name and you need to say this. So I will just caveat before you judge too harshly, this is Tom's daughter, Margo. and Margo's three. So we're starting with this one. So there's only eight images. There's not too much to go through. So this is, what do you think it is? if you want to, I don't know. you don't know? No one knows. one knows. She's three. think she's three. Yeah, we know she's three. Also it's an honor on the fan does it but it's a there's a sense of flowing isn't it's very it's it's not like it's a Out of ten? um She's three. Seven. I like the colours, but the thing is you look at it and you're trying to make out, mean it looks, is it ears, is it a breast there, is it? Yeah, who hearts or it's kind of abstract I love it isn't that lovely Margo will And it's layering, know, it's got those paler colours that look like there's a depth to it, you know, and the other stuff looks very foreground, know, the stronger colour as it would I suppose. I think it's got... He's got a rhythm. so much time, Peter, and I appreciate it. What we're going to go on to the next, I have no idea. All right, OK. So this is Lisa. I hate 65. is my mum. This is my mum. Let me think, what breed is that? Not a Vigeland, no. It's mix, it's a separate rescue dog. This is my mum's dog, May. I don't want to give you too much context because... Have you? Mum, without going into too much detail, Mum loves rescues and... Yeah. So this is May. So this is by my mum. Was that that sort of charity? There's a charity... She set up her own charity and rescued dogs. Really? We've- our rescue dog and my son's got a rescue dog, they're great. Oh wow. That's just from Cyprus, I know actually. Really? There's a lot of dogs that need rescuing out there. Yeah. It's kind of pointy. Yeah, she's a shorter leg, but she looks a little bit like a podenka or a basenji. Peter I feel like you're trying to put off giving my score out ten just uh dog, I like the atmosphere from it. Okay, what's going on off the page all of that this could be something else happening It's just that it's dreaming, isn't it? And I like that. I should have said at the start, the caveat on this is that I gave everyone just five minutes to do these. So they were were challenged five minutes. Yeah. And Margot was only five minutes as well. She took five minutes. So out of ten. That's I think that's fair room for improvement. This one. This is my friend Brad. And the text on there says, Hi, I'm John and I have a podcast. This is for anyone listening an image. of me. It's fun, isn't it? uh... Yeah, Four. Four. Okay, this room that a bit cruel? No, I don't think so. Brad won't take offence from it. This is Holly. Nice, lovely actually. Now that classic Victorian looking fireplace. who's she then? Holly's Tom's partner. It's very keeping it and Close know, it's got something of a David Hockney about it as well really. um What did I think? 8, 7, she would love that. She would be really happy. composition I love it, it's symmetrical, it's got it all go back to it. Yeah, there you go. No, it's good. I think that's fair. Right, this one. This is Tom. How Tom? So this is, for anyone listening, this is Pikachu. I don't know how familiar you are with Pokemon. I know, yes, it's great. And Super Mario. Just five minutes, he's done two. That's very good. Six. Six, I think you'd be very fair. You'd be very fair. It's good. It's a good likeness. This one is Adrian. Very confident, very dynamic, isn't it? gone full with the line. There's not given too much messing around kinda think six again though, it's quite- but this is a lot of sixes for anyone listening to this this is the worst feature we've done because we're relying on them seeing a picture but that's fine just have to watch it on YouTube if that's the route you go down anyway yeah this is Johnny who works in a hatch actually we are some of Ralph's staff a lot of them said no Johnny said yes You know, and the different use of colors, isn't it? It's not, you know, one, the color on the flesh. I think it's very nice. right in the pot I'd say eight actually. That's an eight. Johnny would be really happy with that. You would like Johnny's work actually. I'm going to share his Instagram profile with you because he does create some really good art. But for a five minute, I think that's fantastic. type an image, I like the way it's done, the the spacing and it's good, it's got a lot going for it. Thank you. Okay. Well, Johnny be pleased with that. This is Sophie. Five minutes. I will say. That felt it, I suppose. Probably. I think so. Not sure actually. This is my partner Sophie. She did this in five minutes and with two kids shouting at her. Intense. very good, isn't it? Terrible I keep going for six What about seven oh One two three four five six seven eight seven then seven Perfect uh too nice. It's too nice. Well, that was it Peter. Thank you so much I mean, it would have been nice if more people had sent them in we could have kept going with that by really appreciate Thank you. Thank you Right the last bit of the podcast we now have the closing tradition Which is a question from my mum. So my mum sends in a voice note much in the way that it did and I play the phone in. You like that one? Yeah, I think a bit of audience Sam. Ed and Andy. Sam didn't get involved. We'll have to have a word with him about that one. But there you go. So mum has sent in a voice note. So I'm going to play this. Right. So the most important thing. Hi, Peter. How could you encourage young people who are really interested in art and perhaps working in it as a career, but really doubted their own abilities? Thank you. Really what down say their own abilities. Yes, that's difficult, isn't it? Is it a similar kind of story to what you went through? Yeah, I suppose if you can......go to art school is still a... although it's so expensive now, isn't it? And the loans are so... aren't they you know but I I suppose you could do a shorter course you could opt not to do the full course but I think really you can gain so much by going to art school with fellow students and ideally the feedback what's rotten is the way they're going to the contact is less than they used to be College courses can be full time and they only have to go in to see staff on one or two days, in a week sort of thing. Alarming, alarming, but ideally they're going to give you constructive, encouraging feedback and show you so many ways of working really. I guess that allows you to get better at taking notes and feedback. Yes, true. Yes. Tuning something in or changing something about how you're creating. Okay. I'd say that's because I've worked in adult education in education not that I ever intended to but it's always been alongside my other role. I'd have to say I champion that as an encouraging way for someone to gain confidence. Peter, it's been an absolute honour sitting down and having a conversation with you and thank you for giving up so much of your time. I'm going to immediately get out of this suit after this recording. looks so stylish. you so much. That means a lot coming from you. Thank you so much. was a real pleasure. Well, thank you. I've been privileged to be part of it. It's been great. Thank you very much. Awesome, We're done. Well done. was absolutely brilliant. Thank you. We've run over, but honestly.