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JobsWorth Express - Chris Whitley

• John Hawker

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JobsWorth Express returns this week as I speak with Founder of Figure 8 Consulting, Chris Whitley. 


Based in Cornwall, Chris is living up to most of the Cornish stereotypes you can imagine. Yes he’s got a camper van and spends loads of time at the beach with his family but he’s also on a mission to help organisations develop the clarity they need to deliver change in the best way they can.


In this episode we explore what motivated him to start his own business not long after having his second daughter, how he balances building a consultancy with being a hands on Dad and the importance of prioritising work life balance early on. 


Chris’s story is super relatable and a good reminder that you don’t need to know EVERYTHING to get started…you just need to start. 


Please enjoy...Chris Whitley. 


#jobsworth #podcast #career #worklife #storiesthatinspirechange



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Hello Chris mate, how you doing? Can you hear me? I can now. It would help if I put my sound on, wouldn't it? Hello and welcome back to Jobsworth. This week we have an Express episode for you that features Chris Whitley, who is the director and founder of Figure 8 Consulting. Chris is again someone that I met in LinkedIn land. The Express episodes you'll find tend to be a little more LinkedIn centric. So if you are one of our regular listeners who are expecting someone from in and around Leoncy or indeed Essex, Chris doesn't necessarily fit. that mould. What he does do is fit the mould of the Jobsworth style of conversation. This is someone that used to be in one of your more traditional forms of employment that decided due to a number of factors that he didn't want to do that anymore. expect all your standard Jobsworth chat. Chris is a lovely guy. He's very relatable. Trying to juggle growing a business with two young children and being a supportive partner and trying to tickle his own boxes and make sure he's achieving his own things along the way as well. So we speak about all of that. Enjoy this week's episode and stay tuned for next The first question I'm going to ask you, is for anyone that doesn't know you, how do you describe what is you do? Yeah, sure. So I've probably got two ways of answering that. The first one is like the polished corporate way, which is we work with organizations to bring clarity into in their decision making and help them to deliver the changes that they need in the best way that they can. Which I feel like sounds quite nice. The second way of saying it is that I work, I generally work with leaders to help them see the wood for the trees and to help them engage their people more. so that they're bringing change and delivering change with their people in their business as opposed to to the people in their business. Okay. So is that with a bit more of a focus on, on a user adoption and engagement rather than this kind of hard line that is this is happening. You're focused on let's get people on board and going along. A lot of it is more around, okay, so you know roughly where you want to go with the business. So if you're a leadership team, you know kind of where you want to be headed. You know that there's some changes that you need to make, but actually you don't know where to start. You don't know how to kind of go through without using the word like change management cycle, but go through that process to actually make it a success. So a lot of the businesses that I work with are large. substantial successful businesses, but actually when you look into it and you lift up the cover, they've got poor engagement or people are always kind of more negative about things when they make changes because they've not invested in kind of working with the people. They just sort of think, right, this is the right thing to do. Let's do it. Understood. Okay. Well, that will resonate with anyone working in and around that space. Obviously, there'll be plenty of people listening that don't operate in that space. But if obviously, if they want to find out more about what you do, we can share some links at the when we share this episode too. I was coming back through your LinkedIn profile yesterday. It is isn't it? Because I mean, yours is nice, because it goes back a ways for me to kind of get an insight of maybe some of your earlier career. Yeah, I didn't know before this and we mentioned in the preamble that you've done Was it a degree in music? Which is incredible. So I'd look back on some of your earlier roles and I can see chef was mentioned there. No aspirations to become the next Gordon Ramsay at all. I really did at one point. So I went to university because it was the thing that you did back in the sort of mid to late 2000s. Didn't really know what I wanted to do, so did this degree in music tech. And while I was there, found a real passion for cooking. And I was already a musician and things like that as well, but found a real passion for cooking. So uh got a job as a chef in the local pub and basically ended up working there. probably like three or four nights a week. But then also over the summer, just stay in, I went to university in York. So I just stay in York and work in the pub all summer. Basically, I spent my time, which sounds really sad, go to the gym and then go to the pub and working, working in the pub and then probably having a few too many drinks after work and know, exactly. So when so I kind of I kind of got that, that, that bug then and it was a real consideration at one point. and then life takes over, doesn't it? I, every now and again, I sort of, uh know, when you have those wistful moments where you're like, I wonder what might have been and think, maybe I could go into it now. And I just think those guys and girls work so, so hard and produce some amazing things. But I don't know whether it's the lifestyle, I don't know whether I could have survived the lifestyle. Well, this is part of the reason I wanted to go back and do a bit of research. And there's obviously only limits that you can find on LinkedIn. obviously now with the addition of music, and you just described yourself as a musician there as well, I think these are things that, these are junctions in your life that you could have pursued and could have progressed. And as you say, in hindsight, you wonder, oh, what would have happened? I've kind of described it previously as sliding doors moments where you kind of get to a junction, you go one way or... you go the other, there's kind of a different timeline of your life where maybe you're in a Michelin star kitchen or maybe you're on stage somewhere. What did you play out of interest, Chris? I played guitar as my main and then I played drums and I sing as well. Not very well anymore. More nursery rhymes these days than anything else. So when I was a teenager full of angst, I'd be in sort of angry punk or metal bands and then I found my softer side so I kind of went down the sort of acoustic folk sort of stuff. And yeah, had, I'm not going to say success, I used to tour a bit and I had some songs played on radio and things like that. Like I, but I didn't make any money. I, I, Amazing though Chris. Wow. So that was really good. And do you know what, when I look back at it now, one of the things that it did give me is a level of, I guess, confidence to an extent just to say yes to stuff. So like I ended up in some weird and wonderful situations just through the fact that I said yes to play music and I was a student and I had nothing better to do. And so like that was, that's kind of given me the get up and go now to say yes to stuff and just see how it pans out. We're going to talk about that in a minute, which is the whole story behind you setting up Figure 8, of course. I use the word, inspired you? Inspired is a big word, isn't it? okay, you've got jobs as a chef when you're younger, and then then start going down more of the corporate route. So what was the shift? What happened to kind of open that door and make you explore that path? So first and foremost, and I think like with anything, was necessity. I had graduated, I've met my now wife at university and she was kind of the year below me. So I needed to get a job if I wanted to stay around in York and got a job in the bank in the local branch and was working kind of in the branch. And I did that for four or five years and kind of we moved about a bit during that time. then whilst, but I always stayed in sort of that area of. I guess like frontline banking, customer service. And it wasn't until I think 2014, 2015 where I sort of thought, well, I've done this for a few years now. Like, is this what I want to do or is, you know, do I want to do something else? And I kind of looked at my career journey, career paths, I guess. And the first one was to go down kind of staying in sort of that customer facing banking role, which would be mortgages or it'd be bank manager or whatever it was. And the other side of that was, I wonder what happens in those head offices that they talk about and, you know, those people that send us stuff that we don't want to do and things like that. So, so I looked at that and I took, I took a complete punt. I took a, I think at the time it was a nine month secondment as a change analyst. And there was no guarantee of a job, but it involved me moving from Cambridge where we lived at the time uh up to Leeds. So I took, took the punt and Hannah and I moved up there and. I started working up at the head office, which was in West Yorkshire. And that secondment was coming to an end nine months later. And they said, we'd really like to keep you on, which was great because the job that I had had actually been restructured and been through redundancy. So I didn't have a job to go back to. So I went from that. I kind of took that temporary role and moved into what they called their Agile Change Team at the moment. It was around the time that Agile was the real sort of. time. the thing. We didn't do any sort of formal agile methodology or anything like that. The kind of the premise behind the team was we were a bit like the A team in inverted commas where we would go in without a real remit and we would identify opportunities to improve. guess these days you'd probably call it continuous improvement. We'd look at an area of the business, identify opportunities to improve and kind of make those small incremental changes as we went through. So in that time I kind of cut my teeth, I guess, on change and sort of some project side of things. I spent some time working with the bereavement and power of attorney teams and we like streamlined their process. So at the time, the only way that a customer could register a death or kind of register a power of attorney for a relative that needed it was by going into the branches and booking an appointment and then waiting a week and doing all that sort of stuff. And the people in branches because those roles went to the salespeople, they didn't want to do them because they didn't get anything out of it. Got you. They're not incentivised in a way. uh maybe I shouldn't have said that, but they didn't want to do them, but they weren't incentivized. And so we looked at, how can we improve this for customers, first and foremost, and we implemented a change which meant that customers could register bereavements and power of attorneys or initial power of attorneys over the phone, and then go into the branch and just hand over the documentation for it to be registered properly. And so that improved the process for the customer. But it also meant that from a branch efficiency perspective, they were able to do more from that side as well. And that was kind of my first, I would say my first big change that I implemented. And it meant a lot to a lot of people, but it was also a big change for a of people. Did it mean a lot to you, Chris? Did you get satisfaction out of it that then embedded something? Did it sow the seed for you to then think, I could be doing this for years to come? I really uh think it did on reflection. I it made me realise that you can do, you can make things as good as possible for people sometimes. And that should always be a focus, certainly from an end user perspective, I.e. how can we make this thing as good as possible, particularly when it comes to bereavement and power of attorney. And we did some work with So the bank at the time were one of the first banks to launch a partnership with Macmillan Cancer Care. So we did some work with them whereby we had additional processes and support in place for customers that are being diagnosed with cancer. And so it was really, it was really, maybe that sowed the real seed because that was like, this is change and it's really positive change. it kind of gave me that, yeah, gave me that motivation, I guess that inspiration, going back to that first word to carry on. brilliant. If my brother ever listens to this, I would say inspiration and kind of through gritted teeth, because sometimes it's not always as strong as inspiration to take you down a certain path. might just be needs must, it might just be a means to an end. But you can be inspired in various different ways, can't you? So it does, again, me and my brother have a big, an ongoing argument about the word passion at work too. But Yeah, I think I'm going to stick with inspiration. I get where you're coming from with that. So this is your foray into more of the corporate world, entry through banking, secondment into change, and then that's the start of what's happened over the last six, seven years. Well, coming up to 10 years now. Yeah, I mean, and everything, all of my, I guess, career moves or career progressions have usually been through circumstance as opposed to through like me really wanting to push on and do whatever else. we were, you know, we then moved house, which meant that I was then two and a half hours away from the office that I was working in. needs must, I kind of looked at jobs closer to home. I started working as a project manager, more formal project manager for an insurance company. I don't know whether I can... say his Cox insurance, everyone's out there. And I started working as a project manager there and again did sort of business, but business projects, not technical IT changes, but more, we're going to make some changes. And it was essentially kind of change management, change and projects. So we're going to make some changes. What does this mean for our context center staff? Or what does this mean for our customers and things like that? So I went down that road for a little bit. And then again, we moved out. So as you can see a trend here. So we were up in Yorkshire, all of our family lived down in the southwest. So we moved down to Somerset because that was halfway between some of my family and some of Hannah's family. And I went into the dirty world of consultancy. But it wasn't it wasn't I worked for a fantastic, fantastic company called called nine feet tall. They're a they're a small consultancy. But that was where I really kind of got into the got stuck into that more strategy side, the strategic planning and the change leadership piece. So less around the delivery and more around the how can we do things as best as possible within a business. Understood. I'm gonna I'm gonna go back to something you said the dirty world of consulting because was that was that the perception? Before you started working in it. Yeah, it's the same for a lot of people And I think it's still the same now for a lot of businesses and a lot of larger consultancies kind of have driven that perception, unfortunately. And it was my perception, it was a perception at time. You joke with people when you said, yeah, I'm a consultant. They were like, well, what does that actually mean? So yeah, it was that perception at time. But I got stuck in and there was 25 of us. know, it was a brilliant sort of team mentality where we all used to get together on a Friday and we do, you know, learning and development stuff and opportunities like that. And then COVID came along and kind of put paid to all of that. I was traveling all over the country, we didn't have kids and it was fab. then, yeah, COVID came along in, what, April, March, April 2020, and sort of shut all of that down. I went on furlough for a period of time, had our first child and I went from that into the civil service because I decided that actually I wanted to go down a different path. Yeah, okay. So that happens. And obviously, a baby in that time too, that in my life, when I had my first child, which was 2018, forced me to completely recalibrate and reassess and reprioritize everything. So you've got a baby, you've got all this experience now, and in 2022, you decide that you're to set up figure eight. Why? So in that time, so between what, 2020 and 2022, we'd also decided to move down to Cornwall. So we live down in Cornwall now. And the reason for that was we'd had our first child, all of Hannah's family lived down here. And we were like, we spend all the time that we could go anywhere during that period of time, we ended up coming down here. So why don't we just save on the mileage and... bankrupt ourselves by buying a house down here instead, which we did. Right. And, you know, we moved to a place in Cornwall where we'd never been before. We didn't know anything about the area. And you know what, it has its ups, it has its downs, but it's a really beautiful place to be and cannot complain from that perspective. But I was doing that and I was working in the civil service as an interim head of change for the Marine Management Organization. And the call came from kind of the civil service around that time that people needed to go back to offices. And mine was in Newcastle. So there's a slight issue there. we tried to work it through, it wasn't going to be it. We could have made it work for me, but I felt that it wasn't then going to be fair for my team and the people that was going to be working with. So I decided to step down from that post and I went into contracting. So I started contracting for a global tech software company. on their change team. And during that time, talking about, I guess, inspirational necessity or moments, those sliding doors moments, one of an old colleague of mine, an old friend, got in touch and said, I've just set up my own business. I'm just about to start working with this big construction company. I'm going to need some help. Do you fancy it? But you'll need a limited company. And I was like, all right, OK. So that was how Figure 8 was born. necessity, needing them to company. But while I was doing that, and while I was working with her, it was like, actually, I really enjoyed this. I really enjoy kind of the level of kind of, I guess, like responsibility it gave me to think, well, actually, I've got to do more than just do the do the stuff, which kind of was where I was at with the contracting life. And I then started thinking, well, while I'm doing that, because it was only three or four days a week at work. So it was great. You know, it great. But while I was doing that, started networking around Cormoran and started thinking about, what could this be? And having a good few chats with people and yeah, we're now what, two and a half years later, and I've been working all over the county, but also all over the country in terms of working with businesses on two sides mainly. So the first side is that strategic planning. So starting way back with a leadership team and saying, they're at a period in their life when it comes to their business. and they want to set targets for the next three to five years, whatever it is. So working with them, facilitating those discussions and kind of challenging them to come up with things that are both ambitious and realistic in terms of um like, yeah, planned and structured strategies. And then the second part of that, and kind of it also happens in isolation is then, right, you've got all these grand ideas. what's the reality and how can you make that work for your people? that could be either through helping them to deliver change or it could be helping them to build the capabilities that they need within their organization to deliver the change. So working with their people to say, do you know what, maybe you could do some things a little bit differently or here are some structures or some hints and tips and techniques that might work. So yeah, kind of it's still building and I'm still learning, still growing and still kind of. That's why I was so scared about the first question of how do you describe what you do because it changes, right? I mean, I'm glad I'm asking the questions because if someone asked me that, I would really struggle to give you a coherent answer. It is tough, isn't it? And I know some of these questions put people on the spot, but it also forces you to really think and reflect a lot of the time on what it is you're doing. I'm interested in the why and the how with these episodes. So by the time you set up, had you had your second daughter, Chris? So what makes you think with two kids? I'm going to put some more on my plate now. And how much did having kids kind of change your approach to work? Did that feed into, need autonomy now, I want to be my own boss to have a little bit more control? We'll talk about the reality of that over my time and my ability to be present as a dad. Yeah, so I think I talk about it being like a spur of the moment thing to set up a business, but I have been thinking about it for a while in terms of what are the next steps and some of the driving forces behind that were the kids and were the fact that actually we all, we're honest about it, we all would love to work less and earn more and have more time. And one of the things that I really struggled with when I was a consultant, but also when I was a contractor was putting a value on my day. Right. So having a day rate. really felt, really like put me under pressure, especially when you're a consultant and you know what day rates you are being charged out. I personally really found that hard, kind of like as a pressure thing to say, shit, I've got to give 600 quid's worth of value today and what if I don't? And how does that get perceived? And so with Figure 8, we do everything fixed cost. So we do it outcome based and or outcome and deliverables based, but from my perspective, I know that the client is paying for that, they're not paying for my time. And that's a, that takes some conversations to work through because I think it's very comfortable to say, it's this per day. This is what you're paying for. But actually when you boil it down, they're not paying for a day of my time. They're paying for the outcome of me working with them for a period of time. Now that period of time might be. five days a week for three months, or that period of time might be a couple of days every month, but it's the outcome that they're working for, not the time that I'm putting into it. And so that kind of works a lot better for me, but also in the background then, and I'm still working on this, don't get me wrong, the idea is to give me some more flexibility. So case in point, my eldest little one was ill the other week, Hannah was away with work. and I just had to drop everything. And usually I'd have been worried about the fact that I've lost a day of work. as a contractor, that can be quite a lot of money sometimes. And it can have knock-on impacts. Whereas for me, I was like, that's fine. I don't need to worry about that because my days are not what are earning me my money. It's my value that I add. Understood. Yeah, I think that's good. And I think you've engineered something there which works for you. Like, yeah, I think your clients and the organizations you work with definitely see the benefit of that too. But you have to find a way that makes you comfortable with the way you work. Otherwise, it's gonna be very hard to do that longer term. What would you say has been one of the hardest things about building the consultancy, Chris? One of the hardest things, would say it's the dropping the need for perfection all the time. And what I mean by that, because we should all be striving to do our best work and that's absolutely fine. But what I mean by that is not thinking that everything has to be absolutely perfect before you start having conversations with people. Not waiting until you've got all of your workshops all kind of like carefully crafted or things like that. before you start talking to clients about actually what do they need. Because you can then really sort of pigeonhole your own brain into thinking I've got the solution, they are the problem. Whereas actually what really works and what has really worked for me is having those conversations upfront to understand what their priorities and challenges are and just having like a bit in the background that goes, well I know my stuff and I know that I have got something that will work for them. But not going in with like preconceived things of I'm going to sell them this package or I'm going to sell them this. They need a change manager or they need this because it doesn't work like that. And that's when I think people feel sold to is because you're going in there with a preconceived, I'm going to offer them this. So I think that's been the hardest thing. And how have you overcome that, Chris? Is that just time? Is that just mistakes, a bit of trial and error, finding your feet as you go? Yeah, absolutely. think it's all of the above. I think it's really sort of thinking about the, really sort of thinking about and getting comfortable with a sales process because we are salespeople, you know, when we're doing it for ourselves. And that's something that I think has taken me some time to sort of get comfortable with because you can... I can completely empathize Do know, we are, but we need to find the right way that works for us to sell ultimately. And my right way is to really get to know a person and a business and understand more about that, priorities, their challenges so that I can say, well, how about this? Have you thought about this? Like, here's how figure eight could help. So you're approaching it from a position or an angle where you can get comfortable as well charging for that. It was one of the biggest barriers for me when I first started the business. I don't classify myself as a salesperson and in recruitment, I remember putting a post up to say recruitment isn't sales once and that got absolutely hammered by everyone saying, there is and I hold my hands up, there is a big sales element to working in recruitment as there is to running anything really or selling in some way, shape or form every day. To do it in a way that doesn't make you uncomfortable, doesn't give you the ick, that makes you comfortable actually charging for your time is so important. So it sounds like you've done that. And I think on just on that point, so one of the things that really helped me, there's a book called To Sell is Human. Okay, I haven't. It's by a guy called Dan Pink. And it talks about the fact that, like you just said, everyone is a salesperson, we just do it in different ways. So he uses the example of teachers and doctors, and how they you know, a teacher is ultimately selling a way of learning to their pupils. and trying to sell the fact that actually it's good that you should learn these things because of X, Y and Z. And so, you know, that was something that really kind of in a weird way resonated with me to say, well, yeah, actually we are all trying to convince people that what we do is the best way of doing it or what we're telling them is the best way to do something. really good point. I have to put that on my reading list because yeah, getting comfortable with selling is still not, it's still a work in progress. I think it is for everyone. Unless, unless somebody is saying that they are the king of sales, which tends to be quite a salesy thing to say. Okay. What keeps you going, Chris? You've been going for three-ish years now. What keeps you going? What keeps you getting up every day and doing this? I really enjoy it. think it's probably like, and I say that in the sense of I have bad days. I have days where I'm like, screw this, I'm giving up, you know, and we all do. But I actually, I really enjoy that it's my way of making a difference. so that hopefully comes out to my clients. like I do, so for example, I do some workshops with the Cornwall Growth Hub down here. And that is working with small businesses. so I run a day or I have run day workshops with them all around strategy and strategic planning. Now they aren't my clients, they aren't the type of people that I will be working with day in day out. But the value that they get out of spending what I hope from spending a day, you know, a day kind of away from their business and doing some getting some structure in how they plan some stuff. And I really enjoy that. But I also then really enjoy kind of those really like complex sort of bigger business problems where you're like, right, how do we, how do we solve this and how do we work it through? kind of seeing that, seeing that switch flick in someone's head where they're like, yeah, I get this now. Or I understand that change isn't just the fluffy stuff anymore. Like it's a real sort of, it can be a really like psychological thing that has a real impact and a tangible business benefit. so seeing, seeing particularly, so I focus in more on kind of the construction and and manufacturing space at the moment. And so seeing the kind of the leaders of those types of businesses and really come around and really embrace the idea of, know what? It is all about people, whether you're doing, know, whether you're building a new road or whether you're implementing a new IT system, it's all about the people that are impacted by that. That's a, you know, that's what I love doing. That's great. That's fantastic. And I think you can tell that as you're speaking, you get that sense of energy. And I think a lot of it comes from being able to do it and build something yourself and work it in a way that works for you. You've not got, it's your own pressure. It's your own responsibility, which obviously at times can weigh on you massively. And I'm going to talk to you about how you balance that in a second. But there's nothing like, since I set up my own business and did this for myself, yes. Yes, there can be times of intense pressure, but actually so much of the joy that I get is because it's my own thing. And also seeing the impact you can make to people I think is really important. I think as well, there's an element of pride there, which I don't think people talk about it enough, maybe as British people, but as whatever. It's like, I've not done this to kind of be successful in myself, but I am proud of doing that, if that makes sense. Everything I do ultimately boils down to for my girls, for the family, and for us to have a nice life. I've not defaulted on the mortgage yet, which is great. you know, like that is something to be, and I think we don't, we don't celebrate those things enough. Like I am, I am, I find it hard to say, but I am proud of the fact that nearly three years later, I've got a business that is still sustaining me. And I'm looking at, you know, I'm working with a virtual assistant, which is something I never thought I would say. I'm looking at bringing in associates and things like that. Like take a moment and be proud. I mean, yeah, it's amazing what you've achieved, Chris. I'm the same. It's very easy to be self-deprecating. I would argue that most of my brand is built around me taking the piss out of myself. But there are moments where I have to say, God, I'm proud of what I've done. You sit there and it's a huge thing to take the leap out of being employed, whereas there's perception of security. Because I have to say, there are people that are fully in full-time employment and have the rug completely pulled out from underneath them. But to know that you are the reason that you're bringing this in and as you say, sustaining yourself and your family is just incredible. yeah, you should, congratulations. It's a huge, huge achievement. Part of this working for yourself, obviously there's always a risk of burnout. How do you make sure you don't burn out? And have you ever experienced burnout? I'll let you know when I find it. it really is right. So I so part of the whole thing through the COVID piece was I can look back now and say I did burn out. I was working too hard because we were trying as a smaller business trying to keep things going. And I felt really invested in that. And I was doing that. And there was a level of anxiety because of everything that was going on. We were getting ready for having our first child, like all of that stuff. And I, I, I have this really distinct moment in that period where I was like, there's too much here, I can't keep this going. And that led to a number of steps changing at that point. And I think I am still learning how to balance things. So I'm hoping Hannah will listen to this, but if she does, I know that she'll say that I don't have that balance right yet. I do at times and I don't know others. right now, probably the first first kind of quarter of 2025 is not a time where I've had that balance. But I think over time, it's about it's about learning what you can and can't do. it's, it's, hard, think it's probably better to say I think I'm, I'm getting better at being flexible, as opposed to balance, let's say flexible. So when I really know that actually, I just can't I don't want to do something or I don't have the time to do it or whatever. I can say that to myself. I work at home predominantly. The girls come home from nursery and school at about half past four, quarter to five, and in the main, I'm with them at that point. I finish what I'm doing and I'll come back to it later if I've not quite finished stuff off. So I think there's an element of flexibility there as opposed to balance, should we say. But I would like to find it. Like I would like to get to the point, like my ideal is getting to the point where I can be working, like delivering for clients, maybe three, four days a week. have a day of business stuff and then I'm not doing stuff in the evenings and the weekends. But I also know that there are times where actually I might need to have some days off, which means that I do have to work in the evenings and weekends. So it's about having that flexibility to be able to do stuff. Yeah, if you're really rigid with a structure around how you're spending your day, especially with kids, as we know, they can be ill, your partner can be ill, all of a sudden you're wearing multiple hats. And I think you can really beat yourself up sometimes. I guess by extension, you then start to become less present with your children when you're around them, because you're still busy beating yourself up or worrying about the things that you're not doing. I'm a couple of years... down the line from setting up my own Chris from where you are, it does get easier and you do start to get the balance right, but not all the time. If I zoom out, I have a better work-life balance than I've ever had. If I focus now on the last week or the last month, I'm, yeah, I am getting it completely wrong. It's that it's that zooming out and saying the long run here Yeah, if I look at over the last if I look over the last two to three years of figure eight Yes, I've found balance. Yeah, if you zoom in on the last three months, no But look I want to get so one of we talked about drivers and things like that earlier So one of my one of my kind of like personal goals is to get to the point over the next few years Where I could take the school holiday? I could take the school holidays off if I wanted to. Yeah. And things would keep running like it's not, it doesn't rely on me. think that's the biggest thing. Like it's great that like I am, I am figure eight at this point and it's that's great and that's fine. But I do want to get to the point where the business doesn't rely on me or I don't rely on working all of the time. Um, we had a week's holiday for February half term and I said holiday. We went to Wales, it was raining all the time and Hannah was ill. So, you know, maybe it wasn't quite the holiday that we wanted. But I still felt myself, I still logged in and I still checked emails and I still did stuff. I'd like to be able to not do that. I'd like the business to sort of tick along without me. It will happen, Chris. I've got no doubt with the way you're growing it and the brand that you're building, it will happen. My first holiday was last year for a week and I've hired the amazing Dean who actually allowed me for the first time in five years to have a week off without checking emails. And it does happen and God, it felt good. So the light at the end of the tunnel is there. What advice, Chris, we are nearing the end. I've got one more question and I've got a game to play at the end of this. What advice would you give someone who's thinking of going it alone? So first bit of advice is absolutely do it. it. To your point earlier, jobs, the jobs, you're only as safe as you are right now in your job. and you know what, one of the things that I kind of, someone else said to me, I think when I was contemplating what to do was if you do it and it goes wrong, then you can just get a job. Like you can always go back, you can always go back to what you're doing. That's not a problem. And that's what gave me the kick up the backside to do it. But the other thing I would say is just be really clear on it on what it is that is your specialism and really hone in on that. Like don't try and be a jack of all trades because people, businesses usually want someone or something, a business that can really help them on a thing. They don't want someone that is just, yeah, I can do what you want me to do. So really be really be that expert in what you do and and and yeah go for it. Yeah, I think it's like owning owning your niche as cliche as it has now become because a lot of people kind of put that out there. You don't have to jump on LinkedIn or go on Instagram for a second with people that are trying to flog business, business courses, but it is really important to start it helps you focus too. And it helps you start to build a brand in a specific space. So that's a really good bit of advice. one of the things that I do a lot with my, say a lot with my clients I work with is the point of having like a strategic plan is to enable you to say no to things as much as it is to say yes to things. so having that sort of clarity in your own head from a business perspective means that you're not just going to think about saying yes to every opportunity that comes along because we all do it. We say yes to the wrong things and that's fine. You're starting out. Actually, that's sometimes the way to start is just to say yes. But actually when you get to the point where you have the luxury of being able to pick and choose, if you're really clear in your mind as to what you want and how you want to do it, that will really help as well. Yeah, I think something I wish I'd known, looking back now, if I could retrospectively create a North Star for my business from the start, know there is an actual North Star and I know you can use business strategy as your North Star as well, just to shape the direction you're going in. I wish I'd done that. I thought I'd had a clear vision and then very quickly, it's like a magpie, your attention is turned to the next shiny thing. So it's really good advice, Chris. Thank you. Right, we're going to close out with a game. You said on your form that I asked people to fill out ahead of this, that since moving back to Cornwall, you are living up to some of the most Cornish stereotypes you can imagine. So I've made the closing game very Cornish, especially for you. So we're going to play This or That, the Cornish help the Dean. Dean hasn't been involved actually. would be Dean's wife that I'd need to contact, who is the Cornish native. But no, I've come up with this myself. So we're playing this or that. I'm going to do 10 questions. You've got two options. You have to give me one option as quickly as possible. No context, unfortunately, Chris, either. This or that. Cornish pasty or cream tea? Surfing at Fistral Beach or hiking on Bodmin Moor? hiking on Bodmin Moor. Okay, working with Cornish startups for helping big businesses move into Cornwall. working with Cornish startups. plant in a harbour pub or coffee in a coastal cafe. Fuuuuck, Pynch. m Driving the a30 in summer traffic or trying to park in St. Ives Oh god. take the A30. or support local businesses or attracting investment from outside Cornwall. where Cornwall is now, I know that's not context, attracting outside investment. Okay, cool. Remote working with a C-View or meeting clients in a proper office. remote working with the C-View. Weekend in the camper van or week in the sun by the pole? Got to say camper van. I mean, you've still got us. So you've got to say camper van. For now. now. Staying put in Cornwall or taking figure eight consulting nationwide. Me staying put but figure eight nationwide. Okay, know it makes sense doesn't it? I mean with the associates that you're trying to build all this network So I mean it's definitely on the cards for you. I'm sure yeah and summer in Cornwall or winter in Cornwall Ooh, summer in Cornwall. I love long evenings. Okay, I asked that more because Cornwall in the summer can obviously be incredibly busy too. So just wondering if you liked the quieter times. No, think, I think if you know where to go, it's quiet all the time. No, that's great. You should be on the tourist board. kind of are. We're going to use this. Chris, thank you so much for your time today. It's been an absolute pleasure. We were talking before this started recording. We've not spoken before, but I do really feel like I know you well. We've had exchanges on LinkedIn. think the brand you're putting out there is amazing. And I've seriously bought into the mission you're on. And I think it's great that you are kind of shining a light on the amazing place you live. to through the post that you put out there. So yeah, I wish you all the luck in the world and I can't wait to see you continue to grow. So thank you so much. Thank you very much, John. Thanks for having me. Cheers, Chris. Cheers. All right, oh, nice John back on the screen again, asking us to rate and review the podcast. Yeah, it's exactly what I'm doing. I'm not gonna keep you too long, but if you enjoyed that episode, I'd appreciate it, producer Tom would appreciate it, my other half Sophie would appreciate it, because I just keep moaning at her that no one does it. So if you could rate and review the podcast, whether you've been listening, or if you're watching me making eye contact with you via the camera. Could you give our YouTube channel a like and then subscribe to it as well, please? And as I said, I can't make you any promises. I mean, the more people that like and subscribe, I'll probably ask less. So that's my promise to you. If you do this, there's a higher chance that I'll stop asking. Thank you.

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