JobsWorth - Charli Davies

JobsWorth is back and this week I’m speaking with Charli Davies, Director of Do It Like A Mother. 

Prepare yourself for a very real, very open, very raw conversation about all things motherhood and parenting. 

With  Do It Like a Mother, Charli and her team are building a movement.  A community where mums are free to share their experience without fear of judgement. A safe space to say out loud that amidst all the joy and magic of parenting, it’s also really bloody hard. 

We talk all about unrealistic expectations, the pursuit of perfection and the myth of motherhood as well as shining a light on the potential negative impact of prescriptive parenting advice. 

Charli also shares how her childhood dream of becoming a journalist led her to a successful career in TV and radio and how her priorities shifted after having kids. 

Whether you are in your parenting journey, this is a powerful listen. 

Please enjoy...Charli Davies. . 

#jobsworth #podcast #career #worklife #storiesthatinspirechange

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Contact the show on hello@jobs-worth.com

Chapters

• 0:00 Intro
• 2:30 Early Aspirations and Career Path
• 11:07 Navigating the Media Landscape
• 16:49 Transitioning to Motherhood
• 24:42 The Reality of Motherhood and Expectations
• 29:09 Understanding Matrescence
• 39:09 The Impact of Parenthood on Identity
• 45:11 Judgment in Parenting: A Double Standard
• 46:52 The Good Mother Myth
• 49:42 Changing Societal Norms for Dads
• 51:20 Understanding Maternity Leave
• 53:19 The Birth of Do It Like A Mother
• 56:31 Building a Community Hub
• 1:01:36 Balancing Work and Parenting
• 1:05:53 Future Plans for Do It Like A Mother
• 1:11:30 The Reality of Parenting
• 1:13:08 Advice for New Moms
• 1:15:30 Creating a Safe Space for Parents

Transcript

0:00

3,000 Rob 3000 nappies in the first year. 3,000 nappies Rob. Rob six that can you imagine taking 6,000 photos of anything? Hello and welcome back to Jobsworth. This week I am joined by Charlie Davies who is the director of Do It Like A Mother. Now ahead of this conversation I think I was guilty of thinking that Do It Like A Mother was just a really cool studio space where classes were put on for new mums. On the back of this conversation with Charlie I have since realized that it is so much more than that. It is a movement, it is an ethos, there is a message that's being created. um by her and her team. And that is one that says new mums and parents in general do not have to succumb to judgment. It is a space where you can be free from scrutiny, free from expectations, free from prescribed forms of parenting and a space where you can go in and just be really bloody honest about how you're feeling. mixed in with really cool classes for new moms and new parents in general. This was at points quite an emotional conversation for me. I felt as a parent really seen by Charlie. We do speak about her juggling work and life and her earlier career and what she's gone on to do and all the things that she wants to carry on doing too. But At the heart of this, it's a reminder to all parents out there that perfection is a myth. We're all doing the best that we can. And I think the do it like a mother message and ethos is all based around support and letting us know that we're not alone. So yeah, I really enjoyed this conversation. I hope you find it as powerful as I did in the room in the moment. As always, if you've got any comments or any thoughts on the episode then please get involved in the comments and stay tuned for next week. you We are going to kick off the podcast with the opening question. I think you've listened to a couple of these so you know what's coming anyway. So when you were younger, what did you want to be when you grew up? So, so I have a distinct memory of, m so we used to get the bus everywhere and there was a bus stop across from my house, my mum's house. And there was an old couple that we used to chat on the bus stop all the time. And however they came up with this, I was going to be the next Kate A.D. I must've been about six. And I just hung onto that. So from being really, really young, I was going to be a news reporter. I was going to do... oh news stuff. And that's the trajectory that I took. So yeah. So what is, how old were you when you had that earliest memory? I think I was around six or seven. Okay. Like it was definitely before my little brother was born. So I was, I was seven when my brother was born. Are you the eldest? You're the first? Yeah, with my mum. I have got lots of brothers, half of them are stepbrothers and that kind of thing. But yeah, in terms of like my full brother, I'm the eldest. Wow. that was bedded in really early, six, seven years old. And we'll go on to explore and discuss what you went on to do in the world that you were working. Cause there's so much synergy between that and what was driving you at the time. Where did you grow up? you're Sheffield. I was going to say, don't have the stereotypical Essex accent that most of our guests are bringing on. So what led you down to this part of the country? Might be jumping, jumping forward a few notches there, but was it work that brought you south? A bit of both. I've always, like as soon as I could leave home, I left home. So I went to university in Nottingham and then from there, wherever the jobs were, I used to go. So I've lived like New York, New Jersey, and then Plymouth, Norwich, like all over the place. m Then London. m And then, yeah, was like, don't want to have kids. Don't want to live in London anymore with the kids. And it was like, let's recce what might be a nice area. And we ended up here because it was nice. So when did you move here? Um, so my eldest was three. So we were like, yeah, how old is he? He's 15. It's going to be 15. Um, so yeah, quite a while now. I'm trying to I'm struggling with that. This isn't a test. I'm going to, but talking about maths test, I'm going to jump back a few years and ask you about what your experience of school was like. So six, seven years old, you're thinking I want to be a news reporter. KAD is up there as someone that you kind of wanted to emulate. But what was your experience of school like growing up in Sheffield? uh was your typical goody-two-shoes, never once got a detention, always had my homework in on time, if not early, did more than I was supposed to do. Like I was that kid who was just, yeah. Was that an intrinsic drive? were just driven yourself to do that? your parents academics? Were they pushing you to do well at school? No, like I don't even ever remember having my homework checked or even being told to do my homework or even asked about what I was doing or anything. Very much me. Your own thing. Almost to the point, my mum sometimes been like, can you come and do something else? of like... doing homework. Yeah, Yeah, she's a single mum, so you know. She was always super busy, which is why that probably never happened. But yeah, that's, I was just always focused on. It's a brilliant trait to have, it? think obviously when it comes to balance, that's important too. But just to have that ingrained in you, that work ethic and the fact that you want to do well, I think as a parent, that's a really nice thing to see in your kid. So you would describe yourself as quite academic at school, like the dictionary definition of what academic. So I did use SCPA as well. wasn't particularly sporty, but I wanted to do that. I danced from age three. So I did also have that physical. you weren't just a... I don't mean this in a derogatory way, you weren't a bookworm. You were doing other things, studying and academic or what we classify as academic stuff. We talked before we started recording about options and getting to that point in secondary school where you are, especially now in the current day, where you're kind of forced or asked at least to think about what you might want to do, the strategy of what you want to do and the path you want to go down to. study and potentially think about what you want to be when you grow up. What was it like back when you were at school? Do you remember that structure or anything about careers guidance at that time? Yeah, I remember, I do remember the work experience. Like you get to say, I did various different things. went and did a few days because my mum knew that I wanted to go down the whole journalism route. I went and did, she went to Sheffield University at the time. So I went and did a couple of days doing their print journalism course with the tutor there. It made me realize I didn't want to do print journalism. But yeah, when I was 15, I did Pizza Hut and ended up... Yeah, it was more of a, need to do something. Like I was sending so many letters off to all the different magazines and getting nothing. And in the end, was like, do you know what? Let's just go and work in a restaurant. And I ended up... starting there at 15, actually getting a job and then ended up being a manager while through going to uni. So it really served me well. Yeah. That work experience. That's brilliant. And I think there is something to be said for getting, regardless of whether it's directly in the field that you want to work in the future, because it doesn't sound like you had aspirations, and this isn't shade on anyone that works in a pizza hut, but not aspirations to work in hospitality, let's say. it sounded though, like journalism was still this real fire in you to want to go down that route. So was that quite rare at the time you were at school to almost know, or at least have some direction? I don't know. I do remember, so I've got older cousins. I'm like the youngest female cousin. And I do remember them all being like, we have no idea what we want to do. Like, we just do whatever subjects at university and actually still don't know what we want to do in our 20s and that kind of thing. That's the only time that I really had any inklings that people didn't know what they wanted to do. I don't think I really knew any different. It's such a common conversation I have now with people that have got kids that are approaching an age where they're starting to be asked by schools or their teachers to think, what do you want to be when you grow up? And I think, I mean, I've got a four and a seven year old. So we're a little bit premature on those conversations, but I do think about what the world of work is going to look like by the time they enter it. being able to support and guide your children in that way is really important, but it's helpful if they've already. attached to something that they can get excited about. But how many conversations are we having with our kids about what that might be? I think some guidance around that is cool. it's always interesting to see what your experience was. And we're a similar age. My experience of careers guidance I've spoken about before was pretty dire. There wasn't inspiring conversations and I had no idea what I wanted to be. So to have journalism, at least in your mind, as a bit of a North star for you. of your time in Pizza Hut, which you did through uni. So it was really serving a purpose to pay for your bills and nightlife probably. Well, no, I was the sensible one who always never drank, drove everyone everywhere because I was always doing late shifts. okay. But was that also a hangover from the work ethic that you had at school as well? Yeah. Was there still an element of that going into your life? for sure. I'm the person who finished everything a week or two early. Like you weren't cramming the night before an exam. You weren't doing like getting coursework done the night before a deadline. I did do all nighters occasionally if I felt it wasn't... I probably could have handed in what I had, but I never felt it was... There's definitely a level of perfection, isn't there? Okay. With that journalism, as I've called it, your North star, how did you go from university and becoming a manager at Pizza Hut to then find your way into TV production? So I did broadcast journalism. Okay. And that course was like everything. So we were in the old BBC studios in Nottingham. So we had everything. We could do radio and television. Like I was in a suit. We were in suits every single day going to university. Like I've never knew any other course where everyone had to wear a suit to go to university. Yeah. Because you were always either in front of the camera or behind the camera. m But that could happen like a number of times through the day. You had to be ready either way. Yeah. And it was before we actually used the internet. Makes me feel so old. But yeah, we used to have the phone, I guess the police used to like leave voicemails basically and they'd create, you'd phone up and it would tell you everything that happened that night. So you would go in and em phone the number and sit there and listen and be like, okay, what can we actually create today for the So we were actually making proper news programs. and radio programmes, I think we flip-flopped on the weeks. It was like an audio newsfeed that was being left for you and you pick that up and curate that into a programme. journalist you'd like we had to do it properly and we were taught by journalists like all of all our tutors everyone had been or was like Jon Snow used to ride his bike up and come and do like things for us and everything so yeah it was a complete every kind of like broadcasting thing you learned to do mixing desks cameras everything And was it as good as you thought it was gonna be? least, because a lot of this is learning and learning the theory, learning to do it practically, but not in a kind of, sounds like it was a real world scenario too. did it tickle the boxes? Was it as cool as you thought it was gonna be when you were six or seven years old? Yeah, I never actually probably thought about that actually. I mean, I loved it. really kind of doing all the law and all that side of it and the actual academic side, plus then all the practicals and like carrying the really heavy cameras around in terrible, hard cases because they didn't want us to break anything and stuff. yeah. But that's the reality of doing it, isn't it? If you're, you've got to take the rough with the smooth. Grunt work is a big part of learning and hopefully you get to a point in your career where you don't have to do the grunt work. You've got people doing that for you, but that takes time to get there. So when you left uni and then when was your first quote, proper job? So straight out university, there was a production company who were making a regional cookery program with James Martin, the local ITV studios, I guess it was in Nottingham. m And they didn't want, as with a lot of TV productions, they didn't want to have to pay proper cameraman and... Yeah. So I had, I'd won the award. So for our dissertations, we had to write ridiculous number of words, but we also had to create a 10 minute documentary and I'd won for the, so there's the radio side and then the TV side and I'd won the award for the best documentary on the TV side. So they would took me on, they took the radio person on as well. Even though we were filming and editing, em so it's like little diary entries for the contestants on this cookery show. Um, so that was straight out of uni. cream of the crop there, haven't they? you both want to. least from their perspective, they would have seen it like that, for sure. Yeah, definitely lots of like mistakes. Learn a lot on that job for sure. But now you're working, you're getting, I'm assuming you're getting paid. Maybe not as much as you should have been, but you're getting paid and you're in this world. you've gone from, know, I know at six, seven years old seeing Kate Adie on the news is not exactly where we're at now. You're not sat on a news desk on camera in that way, but to now be in that world. that feel, were you aware at that time of how cool that was that you'd had this inkling at that age and now you're moving into this path where you're actually making money? No, I mean, I had realized through doing the three year course that I didn't actually want to be on camera. m I was better behind camera. m But then actually doing that job, was like, I don't actually want to be a camera person either. That really was like, it was driving around the whole country, like ridiculously long hours on my own, which is probably not legal now. m But yeah, it made me realize that actually I don't want to be a camera person and I don't actually want to be on the camera either. That's another interesting point and a conversation I have with a lot of people, because you can have this North Star and work your way towards it. And sometimes if that job's not available, you can completely disregard the industry as a whole. But what you seem to have found through a bit of trial and error and having experience and learning that wasn't for you is that there are so many ways that you can still work in that profession or work in that field that don't require you to do. in your case, be in front of a camera or be holding a camera. So that's, that's, think a nice lesson to have learned quite early on. don't want to fast forward too much for your, for your career. I, but at the same time, I to speak about what, what you're doing now. Cause I think it's really important to give that some air time, but you spent seven years with the BBC. So we're fast forwarding a few jobs now. Was that kind of a destination? organisation to work for, again for you, in general in that field, because it feels like externally that it would be, but did that feel like, yeah, I've landed? Sure. I... So I'd kind of tried loads of different jobs in TV. So like researcher, all the different things that I've run, everything. I'd always ended up being the person that people seem to gravitate to, to ask, where am I supposed to be? What am I supposed to be doing? Like, what is happening here? How am I supposed to navigate this? So I went into production coordination because that's essentially what you do in that job. well, I kind of just fell into it. Um, so I'd worked at loads of different, like independent companies in the Indies, as I say. Um, and all my friends were like getting jobs at the BBC and I was like, how are you all getting jobs at the BBC? And I am not getting a job at the BBC. Like I was applying for loads. What I realized is there was a very specific way to do an interview at the BBC, but I only learned that once I'd got in. So I somehow managed to get a, just a. an informal chat with the production manager in current affairs. m And yeah, she gave me a job in current affairs on a freelance contract. m And then as soon as I was in, the whole thing was like, well, I need a permanent contract. So I spent about five years trying to get a permanent contract, which I managed to do eventually when I joined Radio One. That's quite a commitment of time, isn't it, to get to that point? How quickly did you... So how did you land the job without knowing the secret code to get the job? were just really, so at the time, yeah, timing and luck and they were really short on decent coordinators and they still are. Like it seems to be the thing that people don't really want to do. It's not, I guess when you're thinking about the world, it's not the sexy job to do, but without it, it falls apart. em So yeah, was just like they needed someone, they needed someone quickly. And yeah, I was very much how I was at school, have to do the best possible job, which meant I got to work on loads of different things, ended up on Panorama, doing all the big shows. Yeah. And then Radio 1. And again, sorry to keep asking this question, but did it feel, were you aware at the time? It feels like you're aware now looking back in hindsight, that again, having that direction as a kid and then working for the BBC is pretty close, isn't it? what you kind of saw yourself doing. think when you're in it though, it's like any job, there's always bits that you're like, like this really doesn't work well, why are we doing it this way? And there's a lot of that in the BBC, like the way the systems, the way the work, like they talk about it being the one BBC and everyone works together, which is rubbish. Like being in Radio 1, having worked in current affairs. And I'm like, oh, current affairs have got all that footage that you could use for this or have that information. They've done that before. No, we're not allowed to talk to them. Is it quite siloed? I would imagine a lot of bureaucracy. Ring fencing. and lots of people are completely institutionalised and a lot of people being like, but that's my work and I don't want to share that. Like I have to the credit. There's a lot of big personalities to navigate in that as well. This episode could be an expose on the BBC, but I don't, probably get sued. they're already being quiet. uh Talk to me about Radio 1 quickly. What was that experience like? Because I'm now in my Radio 2 years. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think all the DJs that were on at the time are now already too. know, made that transition because I get in the car now and Sophie, my partner, still listens to Radio 1. I'll put it on, I have no idea about the music, I have no idea who the hosts are, I'm really dating myself now. But what was that experience like? Who was hosting at the time? What was the job you were doing at that time? I moved into business coordination at that point. So I'd been a coordinator and then a production manager m and then moved over to the business side because kind of that's where my interest started to go. Yeah, it was interesting. So I did all the DJs contracts. I was the person who got them paid, all the different contributors that came in. That was what I did. m Yeah, my first day I was just sat there and Pharrell walked through the office to go to the meeting room at the back. And it's like, wow, like this really is like, now I understand why the doors are always locked because they had a whole level, the top level m in the whole building. And yeah, you had to have special access. sounds pretty cool. Outside it, like from sitting on the outside, that just sounds like you'd know Drupal 4L straight away as someone that you were in the vicinity of at the very Yeah, but was very much like I don't, I'm not like a starstruck person and I don't think that's very well because I'm not the kind of person who'd be like, can I have a photo with you? Whereas everybody else was, which meant that I was always kind of in the background and never really got in there because I was like, they're people. I can empathize, I can relate to that. mean, I've not been within touching distance at Pharrell before, but I would definitely not be asking him for a picture or anything like that because I just would empathize with how I might feel. It's strange to say, but if someone was coming up to me as I was just walking on about my day-to-day business and trying to take that attention or yeah, just that. in the office. That's people did. There's also a very, you got on really well there if you got that balance just right, just enough kind of like sucking up an ego. oh gets you seen by maybe not always the right people, but you only need it to happen once and then you're on someone's radar and it's bit of playing the game, isn't it, to get ahead? Yeah, for sure. So you left the BBC in 2016. that coincide, did that have anything to do with becoming a mum around that time? No, I'd already had my eldest. So I'd had my eldest while I was working on Panorama actually, so way before I got m to Radio 1. m But I was full-time in London every single day. m So after Radio 1, I went and worked at BBC Online and I'd gone up a grade. I got as high as I was ever going to get really, m without being like a director and that kind of thing. m Yeah, the love of the work. I wasn't really making content anymore or helping people to make the content. I was always kind of the person who facilitated everybody else. And yeah, I of just fell out of love with it. It became more of like an office job. Sounds like there's a separation there from some of the more creative parts of it that you really enjoyed and got you into in the first place from the sound of it to becoming much more operational bit back office. Yeah, and then kind of the commute and the work didn't add up to not spending as much time with my son, having to like him being breakfast club and after school club and a nursery all the time before that as well. yeah, it wasn't adding up anymore. was going to talk about that because I want to cover your experience of becoming a mum and matressence. We did have a chat before we started recording. just wanted to make sure I least said that right. And all of a sudden I was doubting myself, but matressence. think, did you, how much was there a drive at the peak of your career? You've got your son who's incredibly young and I'm sure there would have been all the pressure or at least this Internal pressure as well to be at home with him too. But how much did it come into play with you thinking if I take my foot off the gas now, I will not get another go at this? Were you aware of that? was that even, as you've seen that happen around you with other people that might have taken extended breaks and then tried to get back into the industry, was that driving you to carry on? Maybe subconsciously, I worked with producers, like one lady who stands out, she got four kids, she was like on the road all the time. But I suppose what we were all freelance, so we could take a like contract for six months or three months or whatever a year, depending on what you were doing, or what the program was. And it was like an intensive period. And then you could take the time off. But at the same time, I didn't necessarily want that em either. And just being in like the coordination management side of it, that became less of a thing because you were always just the person organizing or making it all happen. So I'd still get phone calls in the middle of the night and stuff like, can't find this thing that I'm supposed to be getting on the plane with. And that kind of stuff. Or I don't know, the helicopter guy is ill and he can't fly the helicopter. We need to get the shot at this time. But yeah. I think subconsciously, it wasn't so much like if I leave, I'm never going to get back into it. It was like, do I actually want that lifestyle? Do I want to be doing this always, especially if we're going to have more kids? Do I want to keep being that person who is not around, who is, em yeah, like not able to say, hold on a second, I need to go and do this with my kid. Like work always came first. Like if they called me because they were stranded somewhere. It's like having loads of children actually. You've to it and you've got to and sort it out. It's good description. It's like having loads of children. They're your responsibility. Without you, they are fucked. Basically, like we're stranded in wherever or we have to get this shot at this time from this height. How are we going to do it without a helicopter? You're like, my God, can't even. It became too much pressure as well with having kids too. A lot to juggle, isn't it? But I can imagine it's so wrapped up in the nature of the role. How can you really do it? How can you commit to it in a way that needs to be committed? Longer term, is. When you've also got a human being that needs that level of commitment. But then the other thing that played into that was financially, childcare, going into London, actually working out, I'm earning, I don't know, £50 a day for what I'm doing once everything else has gone out. Is that worth the trade off for as well for not being around? We're talking as well about a time pre, I do think so much changed post pandemic around different ways of working. em I think a light has been shone on trying, well, if you're working for the right sort of business, a light has been shone on the fact that we need to be doing more to support parents on how they want to be more present or just be more available, let's say, and more mindful, conscious about that. But at that time, that wasn't a big conversation, was it? It was like, okay, this needs to be prioritised or you don't work. There you kind of, it's black and white, isn't it? Even kind of like so like standard BBC hours was 10 till six and me wanting to do nine till five was a big thing. Yeah. I did, but now like flexible working and choosing the hours that work for you is such a big thing. And it's such a big driver for parents that are making decisions, whether you've got kids or not, if you just want a better work-life balance, the companies that are able to offer all of these flexible ways of working, which they should. If you give enough thought to it, everyone should be able to do it. You just need to prioritize if that's something you care about and you want to put that out into the world. you What was your experience of becoming a mum like? I, in doing research for this episode and really getting to grips with what Do It Like A Mother and this movement is all about, you are there to shine a light on some of the ways that mums can be open to judgment and being scrutinised and this unrealistic expectation of parents in general, but specifically mums. So what was your experience? Did the experience of having your son shape what, it sow the seed that would go on to you doing? Yeah, but not right at that moment in time. I continued with my goody two shoes, want to be brilliant at everything, perfectionism thing. So yeah, I felt in order to be a good mum, I had to do it all. And yeah, it completely plays into like good mother myths, all these things we have in society that say in order to be a good mum, you've got to be able to do, I don't know, you've got to bounce back, bounce back. You've got to work, but not work. You've got to put everything into your child for their brain development and all this kind of stuff. You've got to also be an amazing wife and you've got to be an amazing daughter and all the other things. Great friend, like don't drop your friendship. So all the expectations of what a good mother is, which is completely and utterly, an absolute load of bullshit, but also unrealistic, like not possible to do all of this. the time you were you yeah, I was internalizing that. was what I thought was, I was doing all, was working, my kid was in getting the development at nursery. Like I was providing like home cooked meals. I'd batch cook every Sunday and get everything sorted. my husband at the time we were picking him up, like my son from school, um, nursery and then after school club and all the meals would be there. He just had to walk in the, in the microwave. Like I was. heading to burnout, basically. And I think that's, when I look back now, the financial thing of actually this isn't worth it and my love of the job is not worth it anymore. There was an underlying thing of I am burning out and something has to change. Something's got to give. But yeah, was that, our birthday parties, like come and have a birthday party at our house. They were amazing. Like I did, I was just the epitome of what society thinks a mom should be. Like getting up at five in the morning so I could do a workout before my kid wakes up. Like all that kind of like, yeah, ridiculousness. It's only you saying it in the way you do, which is this impassioned way that makes you realise sometimes how completely unrealistic those expectations are. But there is an external societal pressure that we should all be doing there. And it's more prevalent for mums. There is more pressure there for mums than there is for dads, 100%. But yeah, it's only as you're saying that I was literally I can feel anxiety rising in me. I'm like, Oh my god, how is anyone how is a human being supposed to cope with? look back at what I was doing, I just think, wow, like, how could I be so unaware of why I was doing that? Why I thought I had to do that? And I think, so then after I'd had my second child, that's when I was kind of like, hold on a second, like, now I have two, this isn't actually possible. And I started actually really reflecting on everything. m And being like, expectations here are ridiculous. Then looking into research, like, where are we basing all this on? Why do we feel we have to do all this? And then all the studies and all the different things that lead us to feel that that's what we have to do as mothers. m Wow. It's big. It's so big. then reading about how, because I've always known of do it like a mother. I've never, I guess I've never been forced to look at the real underlying message of what you do. I've always seen this as a space for doing things for parents with their children. And I get that, but the message is just so important. You introduced me to the term matressence as in adolescence for anyone that needs to know how to say it. But Matresson, can you give me, it doesn't have to be the dictionary definition, but for anyone that hasn't heard that term before, what does it mean? So it's the becoming of a mother, I guess. So as in adolescence, you're becoming an adult and you're going through all the hormonal changes, the expectations of what society thinks you need to be as a good functioning adult, it happens in motherhood. I think the difference is it's argued that matrescence never ends because you go through so many hormonal changes. when you've had a baby, when you're having a baby, to have had a baby and then everything that comes with that, can take up to seven years to get back to who, well, arguably you never become the same person you are. You are a completely different person once you've had a child. And I think that's something as well that society doesn't quite give enough thought to, like you expected to go bounce back, become who you were before. And that is just not possible when you've... you become a different person. And I think when you people try to be who they were before is when people can sometimes, depending on the person, you can fall down a little bit. yeah, my presence is all those hormonal changes, all the expectations, how your relationships change, how your whole body changes from kind of, you've literally given your whole self over to this other person. Like you don't have control over what your body is doing. You don't have control over your birth as much as you can try to, you don't actually really have full control of it. And then you don't have control of what happens afterwards and the trauma that you could have experienced giving birth depending on the care that you've had. And I think that's one thing as well, like people don't realize what happens in your birth, how you're treated, what happens just after in those first postpartum period can actually... change how you see your whole life, how you see your relationships. So for example, if you've said, I don't want anyone in the delivery room, I don't want anyone at home if you're having a home birth, I just want my partner. I don't want the in-laws, I don't want my own parents. Yet someone turns up at the hospital. That can shape how then you're like, well, you don't actually value what I want. But I think that happens when you become a mum as well. You become invisible. Because you've given your body over to your child. of a brand new human being. Again, the perception is that you're living in service and in lot of ways you are. You are exactly. you almost, it's this invisibility of becoming a mother as well. Like everything is so focused on the child that yeah, mums get forgotten. Like you look on through a massive, like if you, that was surgery that you'd had, the docs would be saying, why you messed up for like six months, but you just expected to get on and look after this kid. that's, I think that's a really good point. I'm not going to overshare too much of Sophie's experience with labour with our first son. But I can say from my experience of being in that room, and how that impacted me, and how it impacted Sophie and my reaction subsequent fallout of how it impacted me affected our relationship affected how I bonded with our with our son. But no one speaks about it. No one speaks about it before the event. You might get in retelling the story, someone might then go, I'm so glad you said that, and then have an honest conversation. But in the buildup to having kids, very few people are willing to have a really candid conversation about how the experience, the fallout, all of these things can have a negative impact and a lasting impact. So I think... In the community, and we'll go on to talk about this, but the community that you've been building, I think it's playing such an important role because not enough honest, transparent chats are had. thank you for having them and thank you for building a space where they can be had and for being really honest because I think it's so important. So you'll have gone through protestants as well. googled it. Yeah, Matresens kind of was coined in the 1970s by Dana Raphael, and she's like a medical anthropologist. But then in the early 2000s, I don't know, because people realized that dads or like non-birthing partners were involved too. was the doctors that coined the phrase for guys. m And yeah, because your testosterone drops, your brain changes as well, like everything you need to actually bond with a kid, that happens. But don't think people realize like PTSD is a real thing for dads and moms. But yeah, it really does. It is a thing and no one gives it that. m I'll use this as an opportunity just quickly to say, because I'm not going to hijack this podcast for dads, because I do think there is more that needs to be done to create a space where dads can have these conversations too. But I, not long after my son was born, started to have therapy and I was advised that I'd more than likely have PTSD from the labour. And that's a really hard thing to admit. It's a really hard thing to go home and have that conversation with Sophie, because the full expectation, had every right to look at me and go, you... Exactly had PTSD, what are you talking about? But in, think the definition of PTSD is fearing for someone's life or fearing that someone you love, you're going to lose. And that's what I went through. And I don't think anyone talks candidly about that. So whether it's women, whether it's men, we need a space for it. But potrescence, again, I'd never heard of the term. I was wondering straight away, probably as a guy, there's potrescence. Is there potrescence as well? So I looked into that. But I think the process and labeling it as a process. It's not just a day. Labor isn't just a day and then all of a sudden, we've got the baby, it's all fine. It's a journey that seven years on. Like my oldest, I'm still going through it. It's crazy to think it ever ends. I we'll forever. When does it When you get grandkids and like, yeah, I don't think it actually ever ends really, because it's all complete social changes, relationships changing all the time. Like there's so much to navigate all the time with kids. Mom and dad's relationship changes. uh Day one on the buildup, especially I think with having your first, it's you can romanticize that path and have all of these things about how amazing it's going to be. then the reality is like, I am in the trenches in a war zone. But again, I don't necessarily have this platform to be really honest about how, how dismal it can be at times. are beautiful moments, stunning moments that, just make you completely fall. And there are moments where you are questioning, am I? Who is this person I've had this baby with? What is this child I've birthed into the world? Like all of this stuff. That's the guy, they talk about the ambivalence of becoming a mother. you know, it applies to dads too. You can absolutely love your child with all your being, but I hate being a parent. And that is okay, because it is so fucking hard. I don't think people have those honest conversations. And it's controversial as well, like, if certain different parenting things that you're supposed to or not supposed to do and all that kind of stuff. to say, actually, it's hard. I don't want to carry my child around in a sling all the time. That is fine. Some people want to, some people don't. And I think being able to say, my accumulation of experiences, what I've gone through from my own childhood, my own experiences into adulthood will shape the kind of parent that I am. And so actually, if I don't want to carry my child around all the time for whatever reason, that is okay. Actually, if I don't want to breastfeed for whatever reason, because, you know, there are people who, one, can't, two, it might trigger all sorts of memories from terrible things that have happened to them. Like, there's so much that we don't account for in the individual experiences when we're like, you should breastfeed for this length of time, or you should sleep with your child for this length of time, or you shouldn't actually, because it's dangerous. Like, there's so many conflicting, like, pieces of advice. m And proliferated by or perpetuated by social media now, everyone's next to social media, you can scroll through your newsfeed if you dare to search about anything like that. And within two videos, you've got completely conflicting messages. Where do you start? Where is the source of truth for this? And the answer is It's reason why. again my perspective. It's taken me ages to learn that. But I think even so, when you really start delving into it, it's very depressing. But at the same time, as a colleague said to me yesterday, like people who don't then, because it is depressing, won't have the conversations because they're scared of what people will think. That is not helping. That is not changing the situation and we need to have those conversations. So when you delve into it and you look at, for example, where attachment theory came from, in terms of how we parent our children and they have to have a secure attachment to us and that kind of thing. It's a study based on 23 kids and they've never been able to replicate it again. And obviously things have moved and changed within what the attachment theory is that we base parenting on and relationships on and have changed and they have been able to like do studies and replicate things. But if you think the very first study that we base everything on, was 23 kids and never been able to be replicated again. You think, why are we, why are we basing it on this? so much trust and buying into that. All of it is theory, none of it is actually properly, because unethicals do studies on parents and babies. so it is all theory, like you can do all the kind of studies you want on rats, but it is never going to be real human experience. the foundation for so much of the advice that's put out there. Yeah, and I when you when you realize that and you think actually I should go with my own experiences my own instincts about what is right for me I can take in all the information about what is good or bad or all the different ways of doing things and you can find Whatever you want to you know back up your own opinion if you look hard enough You can find a study that tells you yeah, exactly what you're doing is perfect and the complete opposite em Yeah, I think when you realise that as a parent, you start to think, do you know what, I don't care. oh Quite liberating. Yeah, and that's what happened with my second kid. I kind of got to the point where was like, do you know what, don't care what you think. know, I breastfed and bottle-fed and the midwives and the health visitors are like, you're what? But I was so kind of, this is what I'm doing because I am not going through the same as what I did with my son. em They kind of couldn't argue with me about it. One of the questions I was going to have, which I think you've touched upon and more than likely answered now, which is how was the second time out becoming a mum shaped by the first? And it seems like your experience through again, succumbing to that pressure, very nearly burning out, maybe you did burn out at various points and that looks very different for different people. how did that affect your second experience? But it sounds like you took that and kind of, when I say weaponized it, I mean, in the best possible way, there's, I've got conviction now that what I'm doing is right. And that can be a really liberating way to operate. think I'd realize at that point that judgment is like whatever you do as a mother, you will get judged. Like, so you could take your kids into a supermarket and they could be screaming the house down. And everyone around you will be thinking, oh, he's such a good dad. He's taking the kids to the supermarket. He's doing so well. But if Sophie took them in and they're screaming the house down, screaming the supermarket down, no one will be thinking, oh, she's such a good mom. She's doing such a good job. The default is. well, she can't handle the children. uh And that is, I think that's the difference when it comes to dads versus moms in their experiences and what a lot of dads don't necessarily understand. It's a different kind of judgment. It is. I can, the supermarket thing really resonates with me because I, we've, Sophie and I have both had experiences of our. I mean, this is a, this is a global thing, a universal kind of experience that parents would have had, but it happens fairly regularly that our, our youngest specifically at four will lay down in the middle of an aisle just cause we said no to a magazine and it is absolute carnage. But I do feel like I get away with it. walking out of there with people giving me smiles or giving me like... so well. Yeah, you've never get that well. Sophie's experience is very different. just as a specific example, I can definitely relate to that. And Sophie, when she's listening to this will be completely agree because she's left feeling like if she lets it in, she's left feeling like a bad parent and she'll get home and that will sit with her for a period of time. And if you have enough micro moments like that, they build up. And it's this whole good mother myth that we have. even if you do read parenting books, any research, it's all as the mother. They never really talk about other caregivers or any other people that might be in a child's life that have an impact, including the other parent. m everything is on the mother as the primary caregiver. You birth that child, therefore you are the default and their primary caregiver. And that has then played out in society really into terms of what mothers are expected. They're expected to be, you know, all giving, develop your child's brain, which the research for that is not great either. All of it is just on the mother and the pressure there. to kind of do it all. I think things are starting to change because dads are starting to shout, like dad shift wanting more paternity leave, that kind of stuff. I think sometimes when I talk about stuff, people think, you're so down on dads. And it's like, no, I'm not. It's a societal thing. Like we need society to change. We need all the policies to change. need to people's opinions, what they think a mother should be doing, what a family should be. We need that to change. You're completely right. I was sitting here and I was thinking for a second, I kind of feel, not that I feel like you are down on dads whatsoever, but I feel like as a dad that is, that I know I'm conscious of that societal pressure for moms. And I would love to think that I'm an advocate for more balance and more equality. I take my role as a dad really bloody seriously. And I know they're... I know there are some out there, you know, this is anecdotally, who don't maybe, who are, let's say, stuck in more that kind of past generations viewpoint of what that dynamic should be like. So there is part of me sat here and I'm like, I do want to advocate for dads that are bucking that trend and really pushing against that. But when you're saying about the construct of society is paternity leave being one of them is statutory one or two weeks is disgusting. I'm so on board with this big fight at the moment. We're fighting for six weeks. It's not even... You want them to be the same. I know a mother needs to... Like the person who's birthed child needs the time to recover, but that also needs to like have... So yeah, if you have a caesarean section, you are supposed to not do anything for up to eight weeks, yet dads go back to work after two. Like you're expected that there are other people. there's another tribe people that magically... isn't the case anymore. We don't live across the street from our parents. We don't stay in the same communities anymore. The majority of people who come here have moved from London. Their parents live a long way away. They don't have a support network. This village that people talk about that you need a village to raise. We're a different time now and to have this kind of archaic, antiquated parental leave is again, harking back to my experience, two weeks, the first week of my paternity leave at the time was spent in hospital. So I had a week and then back at hospital and it's not a worries me story. It did affect how I bonded with my son, but it also affected how much support I could give. to something at home and it, something needs to change. So yeah, I was sat here thinking, I know that you are not down on dads. Societally it's a problem. And the constructs around it do need to change. There is movement, but to think that a win for paternity leave is going to be two to six weeks. And there are businesses out there offering six months, four paid paternity leave for dads. can break that up into two. There are so many examples, but again, got to prioritize it, got to think about it. And then one of the best retention to get really sad about, you know, a return on investment, one of the best retention tools for big businesses is to change your parental leave. And you'll be amazed at how many people stop fucking off and stay with you for years. So anyway, I'm an advocate. You can tell I get quite. I think one thing that I would say to every single guy who is becoming a dad, read Matressence by Lucy Jones. You will have so much insight into what your partner is going through and is going to go through from all the physical changes, the judgment, how they're to feel once they're on maternity leave or maternity service as someone's coined. I saw you use that. Maybe it's on your LinkedIn profile because I do jump on there from time to time. So yeah, what is that phrase? Is that any different? No, the definition is really the same. Alex Bollen. Oh no, that's a different book. Use the broadcaster, you should know this, on Radio 2. Oh, Radio 2. The Lady from Woman's Hour. I'm so sorry, I can't remember her name. She wrote a book called Maternity Service because after she'd had her, I think it was her second child. She was like, why do we call it maternity leave? makes you think that you are literally, yeah. doing nothing. When actually you are going through like extreme loneliness or the judgment, like all the things and you are in service to this child. So why do we call it maternity leave? She was like, we need to call it maternity service. And I was like, yeah. Absolutely right. words do have meaning, don't they? And they have connotations, so service, do think, you're probably right. I saw you'd written that and I was like, I wonder what the difference is. to say leave does... It kind of relates to the... is not at all. How did you, we're gonna go to talk specifically about Do It Like A Mother now. How did you find, because Do It Like A Mother in various guises has been founded in 2013. So you took over in 2020. Is that right? You can tell me if I'm wrong. Tried to do a bit of research. How did you find Do It Like A Mother and at what time for you did it appear? So I had finished work at the BBC. I'd gone back and done freelance stuff in various guises. And then was like, I really want to find something that I want to do. And I'd started a company built around sleep. And so I was like, God, I was sleeping eight hours a night, but actually still really, really tired. Like burnout, like typical burnout. So I trained as a sleep coach. Like I, you asked me anything about sleep and I can pretty much. Tell you about it. But then off the back of that, all the marketing and everything that I needed to do for that business, I found Essex Marketing Services, which is run by Clay Martin, which is now BlueCactus Digital. And she was like, oh, my friend's selling, wants to sell her business, which is Kerry, who started doing it like a mother as a hit number thing business. Like we'd be pretty good. You've got all the finance and the business background. I've got the marketing background. We should go into this together. And so we did and we bought it just before we went into lockdown. I set my business up six months before lockdown, so I know that feeling of. Yeah, so we went from having a packed studio, loads of people using it all the time to not being able to do anything at all. m Which is both a positive and a negative thing in a way. m Working out how to get going. Claire's brilliant at just saying, this is an idea, let's do it and just doing it. Whereas I'm like a planner. You need people like you. Yeah, so it's a nice kind of building. So yeah, we were online doing classes online very, very, very quickly. And then I was the one reading all the legislation. What can we do? How soon can we get back? What do we need to have in place? And almost became the person that people came to. Like, I want to start my classes again. How do I do that? kind of harking back to something you said earlier as well, you were the go-to person. Yeah, having all the spots on the floor, people that are newsing here because they knew they could and they weren't going to get fined and stuff. But what it did do as well was allowed us to people who weren't necessarily in line with what we thought parenting, the whole kind of non-judgment, you do what is right for you view of parenting. The people who weren't quite in line with that. allowed us to, the lockdowns allowed us to kind of say, I'm really sorry, you're not coming back. Yeah, well, what you build and the message you put out there filters out the people that you want with you. And I think it's important the brand you build, should act as a filter. You don't want to have have awkward conversations all the time for people that aren't fitting the brand, the brand itself. I do it now. Like if people are like, I really want to hire with you. I'm like, okay, we need to have a chat first. And I don't think people realise that this isn't just a place you can hire for whatever you want. If you come in and do stuff here, you have to be on board with all our values. Because people come in, like parents come in here knowing that that is what they're going to get. And so I don't want someone running a class, even if it's their own business that I hire to, who then makes someone feel uncomfortable because they're doing X, and Z. So yeah, I get a little bit of pushback and people are a like, what are you... I do. respect it. I think it's really important. You have built this community, you've built this brand, you're very clear about the ethos that you've got. So to vet the people, because it's so easy, isn't it? To just say, someone's interested in the space. Let's give it to Bring in some money, will have a long lasting detrimental effect on the community if it's the wrong person coming in. Are we talking people that may have very prescriptive ways of parenting or quite preachy in the way that you must? If they're saying you must, I would imagine that's not the type of people you want for the door. so a yoga teacher, for example, who is very much, em they don't want people to bottle-feed or they'll be down on someone who bottle-feeds in their class. That kind of thing. I mean, that's very stereotypical kind of... Right? Yeah, it does happen. em Or yeah, they're down on co-sleeping or they don't think you should put your kid in their own bedroom at a certain... Or anything that is like... too prescriptive to one thing. So this is the other thing that I don't think people understand. I'm not down on certain things. I'm down on people thinking you have to do one certain single thing. So they could be all for bottle feeding or they could be all for breastfeeding, but if they are too much one way, I'm like, yeah. So it's prescriptive. I think what you're doing is giving people options, knowledge options. Use the tools available to you, but know that that's not the only tool in your tool belt. You've got a load of things. There one right way of doing parenting or anything to be honest. There is not one right way. hard to hear that though as a parent, to know that you're not getting it wrong if you don't follow the book that you read because you thought that someone on Instagram had said that was the right thing to do. Yeah. And then when you look at all the studies and they're like, yeah, no, you have no impact on your, like you could do whatever you want with your child, but you are not going to have any impact on their brain development. I tell you what, just as a very quick sidebar on this, I was reading a study about the impact that siblings have uh on a child's brain development. Potentially, this one study was saying more impact or as much impact as a parent would have on a child's brain development, how they are building that relationship. If it's an older sibling and they have a younger sibling, they're the kind of behaviors that are example to and I just thought, okay, well, that's a really interesting thing too. There's all these things that shape our children's life. The buck doesn't always fundamentally sit with us. So again, to feel that pressure. Yeah. It's really hard. think so. I've had people say to me before, it's really interesting how all my children have turned out so differently when they've had exactly the same upbringing. And I like that is not possible because as soon as you have another child, yeah, you can't bring the other kid up exactly the same. It's just not physically possible at all. a division of time straight away. The pressure when we had our second was that how first I think a really common thing is to think how will I ever love another human being that I've created in the same way and you can. There is scope, there is all of these things. You might not like them as much at various points. That's something that people are like, I can't say that I don't like my child or I can't say that I absolutely hate going to the park or doing small play. And I'm like, but that is you and you are allowed to hate doing the certain things that you feel you've got. It's a big word hate with negative connotations, but... Always love them consistently, like them, dislike them. That's a sliding scale, depending on how they're being, or my mood that changes as well. But it makes you a bad parent to not like spending time with your child or to not like doing certain things with your child. It does not make you a bad parent, it makes you human. because we're bad kids. Exactly. And a lot of people having to re-parent themselves as soon as they have children because it takes them back to their own childhoods they think, oh my God, like, what were my parents doing? And I'm going to do that, or I'm not going to do that. And so you have all that to deal with as well when I think when you become a parent that no one tells you about. The anxiety is rising. Yeah, I think you're completely right. So you've been so obviously you took over the business at a really difficult time. You've made that work. We're still here with five years down the line and we're still sat in this space and it's still this kind of community hub for the based on the ethos and the message that you're putting out there, which has been amazing to see. And you are you are a single mom. You are juggling being a single mom to two kids. You are juggling. Do it like a mother. You also in 2023 took another job for training consultancy. Is that right? How are you doing all of those things? I would imagine part of its necessity. I would imagine it's also the drive in you to be like, I have these things I want to do. Because this could easily be. know, it's good real estate, could easily be something, okay, well, maybe the headache is not worth it, we'll pass it on to somebody else. So yeah, what drives you and how do you do it? How are you achieving balancing all those things? So I've always been one of those people, just kind of give you a bit of context. I've always been one of those people who will sit down and write their goals where they want to be in five years and 10 years and all that kind You're a planner. I'm a real planner. em Love a spreadsheet. em And em looking back on kind of my 10 year plan when a long time ago now. I'd always had on every single thing of where I want to be, I want a portfolio career. And everyone's like, what the hell is a portfolio career? And I'm like, I just want to use all my skills and my experiences and do what I can. I don't know, I don't just want to do one thing all the time. So I've always had this thing that I would maybe have a business, freelance or actually have... whatever the job might be in something else that I want to do that maybe I'm really good at. em And yeah, then have all the different passions and stuff that I want to do behind that as well. So you say, you term it as that, I term it as you are spinning plates and you like that. Yeah, I do like that. But I think it's good and it bucks the trend and this is what jobsworth is all about. It bucks the trend of that traditional form of employment. You're with one business for however many years and that is all you do. some people are incredibly happy doing that. We're not trying to cast judgment. We're not trying to do anything. The podcast is all about trying to inspire people to change something if they're not happy. And knowing that that is an option, I think is really powerful. You do not need to be. in a nine to five, five day a week job and that's it. You can have things going on that might appeal to your creativity. Especially now after lockdowns and stuff where you can work completely remotely. So that's what I do. I work completely remotely four days a week as a head of business and operations for a consultancy. And then the rest of the time, but it means that, you know, I can come here in the morning, make sure everything's okay with the person who's coming in, do work for the day, go and sit in cold coffee most of the day. I really do think I should start paying Andy rent. You're paying for his coffee. You're contributing. Don't worry. m And then finish, go and pick my kid up or come here, make sure everything's okay for the evening person, pick my kid up, do everything I need to do with my children in evening. m I think I actually have now I'm a single parent, I have more time, which I think harks back to me feeling that I had to do everything to be a good mother. So whether... m my ex-husband either didn't know how to take stuff off me or didn't want to, whatever that might have been, at the point where I was burning out and realized I can't do all of this with two children. Yeah, that was one of, it's very complicated, but that was one of the things that was in it. That I was just doing everything. But it sounds now as if, you say, you've got more time, which gives you, okay, I can imagine at points it's a blessing and a curse having more time because it frees up more brain space to think about everything, not just the career that you want to build for yourself or these different things that you want to add. I think I know the answer to this question, but it feels like you've got more stuff in the pipeline or in the works to add either services to do it like a mother or something completely different. Have you got things? that you're driven to do and want to achieve beyond what you're doing now. So now, so my kids go to their dad on a Friday night Saturday. So that's like a week. So majority of the time I get a Friday night Saturday. And yeah, I have so many ideas and I used to just like try and do all of them. Whereas now over the past kind of year or so, m in terms of like my wellbeing and that playing into the whole parental wellbeing thing as well. m and kind of having those moments of like, oh, this is something people need to talk about too. I'm a little bit more structured in, I need to make this work. And then I can move on to the next thing rather than trying to do all of it in one go. Yeah, because again, pressure would mean you need to be as productive as possible in the time that you've got. Yeah, also making sure that I'm not working constantly. So yeah, now I am very much like it gets to like, I actually pick my kid up and that's it. So you're quite boundaried with that. No, yeah. it would feel, yeah, historically that wasn't the case. I would be on my laptop until my ex-husband was like, we need to go to bed. That's interesting. A conversation I've had with previous guests as well. Boundaries are really important. Being present and consciously there for your kids is super important. I've talked about it before. There's an amazing picture that was created of a, I think it was actually a dad and their son sat on a sofa and a huge blown up mobile phone screen between them because it does act as a barrier. Your kids... feeling. feel like they can speak to you. It's a wall that you're putting up. all that aside though, there was also a drive. I struggle with this. Sometimes I want to work. Yes. And I'll be sat there and sometimes I will be with my kid and I'm thinking I need to be present, need to be present. I could really jump on there and I've had this idea and I want to write that down. I want to go and send that email because now is the time and I'm filled with that enthusiasm. So also try not to be guilty when that comes. I think the background of that though is, and what people don't talk about either, is that parenting can be unbelievably boring. It can be really, really boring. And I think that's where those kinds of things come in. Like do we really do have to be consciously present? um what we talking about earlier with phones and this whole thing with, it's black and white, don't have the phone, do have the phone. How are we going to learn the tools? Are we always going to sit there? If it's no technology around our kids for yourself, for them, how do you learn to regulate that? and that's, I think that's what we have to show them. This is how you regulate, same with emotion, like this whole, you know, as 80s kids, you know, you're not supposed to be angry, you're always supposed to be quiet, you can't be sad, you're always grateful, all these things that we were supposed to be as children. And now we're, as a lot of people our age struggle with... seeing anger is not necessarily negative. Like our kids should be able to have every single emotion that they can have and then not be seen as positive or negative emotions. And I think we have to be able to, and we kind of don't want to show them, we don't want to show anger, we don't want to show sadness, but actually we need to so that we're showing them how to regulate that. Yeah, I've done a lot of work around that. knowing, I think knowing when to apologize. Accepting that when you blow up, you're going to blow up and you can't regulate all the time. You can't be suppressed all the time. You're a human being, you're a kid yourself. Sometimes you're going to shout, sometimes you're to scream, sometimes you're going to get upset. But I very quickly embrace the fact that sometimes I need to sit down and say, I'm really sorry I did that and try and explain without. using them as a therapist. I explain why that's happened. I think I did that quite early on and I would like to think that's again, who knows in maybe I need to start saving for therapy for them in the future, but I would hope that that's a positive thing that they look at that and think at least I was open and honest enough to be like that and not be perfect. who would Yeah, no one, no exactly. I think when your kid starts apologizing to you when they've had a meltdown, that's when you know that you're showing them how to. Yeah, and that does happen. There are those lovely moments where you think, you've, yeah, you're on board. Yeah. And not in a uh negative way, but just you've acknowledged something's happened and you're ready to own that. Be accountable for that and say sorry. And I think it becomes as they become teenagers as well, knowing that actually you can't lecture them on how you think they should try and regulate their emotions. You've actually got to do it for them to see like they completely going to turn off when you start talking to them. I've learned that very quickly. You can't talk them out of feeling a certain way, can you? Let it go. You've to check that they're going to listen. So I'm very much like, is this a good time to talk to my son? Is this not a good time? Is he actually going to listen or isn't he? And that is the pre-cursor to any conversation I have with him now because I'm not going to sit and lecture you because it needs to be a conversation. It's so lovely to talk about it. It feels like as a parent you're making people feel seen and that it's okay to say things out loud. I don't, like anyone that's listening to this, I know there'll be parents that are like, my God, just feel relief to hear certain things said out loud. And that just shows the strength of what you're building. will also be lot of parents and lot of people who are like what are you doing? you can't tell people what it's actually like to give birth and what they're going to feel and what is coming because they don't have control so why would you tell them? And it's like you need for your own mental health and your own well-being you kind of... Some people want to know everything that they're in for and everyone's an individual in that sense and people should be able to just find and take what they need. It's their choice, it? And I think that's the thing. There's no right or wrong, but if people want to know, it needs to be out there and expressed transparently enough that they can learn. you Timing's never been my strong point, so I'm just chiming in randomly during this episode to ask you to spend the 15 seconds that it takes to subscribe if you're watching on YouTube or to follow the show wherever you're listening on any of the podcast platforms. I can try and fill this out a little bit more, but I know you're desperate to get back to what might just be the best episode of any podcast you ever listened to or indeed watched in your life. So I'll let you get back to it. Bye. Okay, I'm gonna ask you a big question now. Okay. You might have to think about this one. If you could go back in time and give yourself some advice about becoming a mum, what would it be? I thought we might be saying it on the last time. Yeah, Me thinking that I needed to do it all in order to be a good mum is... Yeah, I look back now, I think it's great learning. I can look back and reflect and say, yeah, I've learnt from that and I can, you know, that's shown me what... it's had an impact on what I say and do now and how I am very open about... Yeah, parenting is hard and it's really crap and sometimes you want to run away and you don't want to do it at all. that's okay. Just being very real and open, it has impacted that. yeah, don't care. You know, when the old lady comes up to you in the supermarket where everyone goes, enjoy every moment. And you're like, or sleep when the baby sleeps. And you're like, this is so unrealistic. And like you obviously... Do not remember what it was like being in the trenches with a brand new baby. even a couple of generations ago, they weren't actually heeding that advice. You you're just living, a lot of time you're living through it. It's like, you're survivor. You're literally surviving. think if people realised that that is the case. So it's not the case for everybody. Some people absolutely adore that time and they take every moment and you know, it's the best time of their life and that is great. But some people absolutely hate it and that is okay too. Whatever your experience is. So yeah, I think it would be don't give a shit what people think because you're never going to get it right. Especially as a woman, like I think as well, like you are never going to be told, you're doing an amazing job because you did it that way because people are going to go, but you should have done it the other way. Vice versa, like you can't win. So just don't stop caring what other people think. What a lovely piece of advice in general about life a lot of the time, yeah, definitely for motherhood. think that's a really important thing to say. One last question and then we're going to play a game. then we're going to have the closing tradition on the podcast. And this is about Do It Like A Mother. What are your plans for the future? You don't need to share as much as you want. Have you got plans for the future? Are there things you want to do for this space and the community you're building? share whatever you feel comfortable sharing. Yeah, so I'm one of those people who has like a million and one like different qualifications and stuff because when I want to do something, I want to do it really, really well. So, you know, I've got an interior design diploma and a matricent certification, sleep coaching certification and all sorts of different things. And I'm currently doing a Pilates qualification because one, I do Pilates all the time anyway, so it just made sense. But it is one of those things that in terms of parental wellbeing for moms and dads actually, coming and being able to do something just with your kid there, but it's for you. And also it's a space, know, when you go to an exercise class, having a cup of tea and a biscuit and just being able to vent how you're feeling, I think is really important. So being able to put more of that on, that is the immediate future, as they're this year. um But yeah, I have plans in terms of how to, provide support on the person's, meeting them where they are on their terms. having stuff that they can take it when they need it or when they want it. But kind of from pregnancy, having that information of, know, this is not necessarily this is what's going to happen, but they can take what they need. So all the stuff that we have just talked about for people to have that information if they want to take it. in some form in order for them to access it when they want to, when they need to, when they're feeling lonely and at their lowest and like, what the hell have I done? Being able to access something. This is okay. This is normal to feel this way. Because a lot of people don't realize that that's okay and normal. think you used the word earlier, it's such a lonely time. It can be really lonely. And you could be around a room of people and feel completely isolated because you don't know the boundaries. You don't know what you can and can't say. So creation of a safe space, which I think is a term that's used a lot now, but I do think that's important. A space where there's no judgment, where there's no scrutiny, where there's no one ready to go, what are doing? That's completely wrong. That is so, so important. even if your partner is absolutely amazing and there with you and it can still feel lonely. em Especially as they go off back to work and you're supposed to do the whole thing on your own all day and you feel that the house has got to be sorted and your kids got to be dressed without sick down them. You've got to be dressed without sick down you. And that is not happening by the time your partner comes back. Even if they're like, no, and they take over and they do stuff. there is still a level of, failing at this, that is gonna come in just because of what we think we're supposed to be as mothers. Charlie, thank you so much. That's such, I think everything you've said is so powerful and it's so important for mums, parents in general, specifically mums to hear it. And I just, I just hope that on the back of this, more and more people come and seek you out, that maybe don't feel like they've got that support network or that community to go to. Tell people where they can find you, not the address of the building, but like where online are you? If people just immediately after hearing this, they want to go and find, we'll put links everywhere. Yeah, Instagram is the place. Yeah, even if like, I get people in coffee shops, as soon as they realise that I'm do it like a mother, they almost often become more relaxed in terms of what we're talking about. Yeah. They get that I know what they mean, that I'm not going to judge that they, you know, just put the kid in a high chair and they're screaming and they're not picking them up because they're just drinking their coffee. I get it. And I understand why you're doing that. And that's fine. m But yeah, Instagram is the main place where all the information goes out and you can contact me. That's the place I get notifications. Like my notifications don't come through for Facebook or anything like that, right? But it's the gateway where people can find out more, isn't it? that is And then you can go to the website and imagine, find out about classes and sessions that you've got to Exactly. you We're gonna play a game. I've not come up with a title for this game yet, but I feel like this is for a lot of people listening to this, if they don't have kids yet, it will put them off ever having kids. So I'm gonna ask you 10 questions. I'm gonna give you two options and you need to tell me which one is correct. Okay. It sounds like this could go completely wrong, but I'm gonna try. Yeah. So, the first question, we're gonna have to stick a title in at some point, but I don't know what it is. Okay, cool. First question, how many nappies, that's a start, isn't it? Where's it gonna go? How many nappies does the average UK baby go through in their first year? Two options, don't worry. 2,000 or 3,000? I'm gonna go with three. you need to use them. the ones that you wash and stuff. didn't do that. pressure to do that. There's sometimes pressure to environment sustainability. We weren't going to that. Six to eight nappies a day. And I'm thinking there were times where we were pushing the limit on that. 3,000 nappies in the first year. feel like babies have this thing, they do a poo, you change their napping, they've got clean napping and they do it again straight away. Okay, second question. What's the average cost of raising a child in the UK to the age of 18?£160,000, obviously. Or £200,000. Obviously that depends. Yeah, I think if you are the parent who your kid does every single curricular activity that isn't known to man, then the higher one, the 200. even more. It is 200,000. I can cite sources for these because there are some, but it would take too long. Okay. How many hours of sleep do new parents lose in the first year? 700 hours. It makes me want to cry. Or 400 hours. It's almost a month of sleep that new parents lose. Tom can attest to this. And you think you need sleep to function well, like... Yeah, it is. eh Right. And what's the average? This is a good one. What's the average number of questions a four year old asks a day? My four year old left a little while ago and 25 or 73. 73 surely I mean, and that's conservative, I would say. It's just so many, you know, it's just nonstop. by the time their child turns 18, how much will UK parents spend on Christmas and birthday presents?£5,000 or £3,000. Again, I know there's lots to take into play there. Probably the higher. Because we have such a child-centric way of looking at everything. We feel like we have to give them so much. At our own detriment. Yeah. Yeah, always like... I would say again that's probably conservative. It depends on loads of stuff. For my sins, think that was a survey done by the Sun. Okay, probably with like 10 people, but yeah. oh on a high street somewhere. right, how many tantrums does the average toddler have per week? 10 or 4? 10. I think again, that's absolutely... more. It's 10 a day in my house. It's got... But 10 was the answer. How many loads of laundry do parents typically do each week in the baby years? Each week, 3 or 8? 8. This is easy for us to answer, but for someone without children, they'd be like, how are these numbers looking? Yeah, you're not factoring in the number of times you change as a parent because you've got shit down you. Like, everything. Just anything. Okay, what's the most common word after mama or mommy? This is such an American one. Mommy or, or mama or dada? What's the most common word? No or dog? No. You know straight away it's going to be no. Dog, think my youngest said dog quite early, but it was definitely mom and dad before. um the like T's and D's and... Consonants and the Yeah, daughter said her brother's name like... Really? Yeah, one of the first things she said. Okay, what age do kids start costing more to feed than to clothe? 6 or 11? Oh, probably 11. It's 6. Is it? Again, Mike is a massive. Yeah, I'm trying to think of like hormonal changes and like when they start to It's just mad, it's just madness again, isn't it? So this is why the name of this game is gonna have to be something to do with like, it be- Are you ready to, you think you want kids? No you don't. There you go. question, how many photos do parents take of their baby in the first year? 1000 or 6000? Now in the age of having a smartphone, it's got to be six thousand surely. It sounded outlandish and I was like actually looking back I've got albums. Yeah, you just you know, it's the shots where you try to get him looking at camera Yeah, yeah shots as well. But as a photographer, you know, someone that does photography I'm sure Rob six that can you imagine taking 6,000 photos of anything? It's a lot of gigabytes. Yeah the storage Making so much money out the Yep. is a question from my mum. He said you look like you know this. you listen to a full. Okay, right. So I'm going to play this. And we'll see what moms come up with. Hi Charlie, I love the idea of what you're doing. Does your philosophy extend to grandparents too? And how should they be involved or can they be involved to best effect? Thank you. It sounds like she's standing next to the washing machine. It does. She care about the background. But yeah, there's that. because if you think of how we're talking about pretressants and pretressants, mum will still be going through it. She's still running on it, you're still her son, she's still going through all the grandparents, out of that. Yeah, we do get grandparents coming in. So I would imagine again, it's creating a welcoming enough community that another generation can use this space and get involved and feel open and welcome to do that. What I have realised is that I have to disguise things for children. So like Friday meetups when I was doing those, it's a stone play. It wasn't. It was for parents to come in and have a hot cup of coffee and be able to just say, get a hug, say whatever it is they want to talk about, rant. tell me joyful things, whatever. We just so happened to have toys for the kids and it was the same with the grandparents. they'd come with the grandkids because, oh, my grandkids would be coming here most Fridays. And actually, yeah, it was the same with Meet Santa when we did that. It wasn't really for the kids. It was a space so the parents didn't have to wait in a queue with screaming children, waiting for hours to go and see Santa. They could do an activity, they could get a drink, they could chat. and they would just be called when Santa was ready for them. yeah, everything is, I think people know it, everything is disguised as for your kids here, pretty much. But it's actually for the parents. Charlie, thank you so much. It's been such a lovely opportunity to speak with you. Thank you for your honesty and your transparency. And I just think, yeah, I really hope for any mums or parents listening that they come and seek you out. Because I think what you're doing is so important. And it's actually, it's felt like therapy for me. Just to say some of the things that you can't always say to people and have it welcomed with, oh, I acknowledge that. I see you for that. And that's OK. That alone is worth. coming in and seeing what you're doing. So thank you so much. You've been amazing. It's been great. Cool. That was so good. Thank you so much, Charlie. was so good.